Interesting thinking

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Author Message   themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 3038 Registered: 12-2001 Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 11:45 am:        I am very conflicted about the notion of withdrawing from Iraq. I don't think it will be a great period for America or Iraq if we go. The argumant from the left seems to be that things won't get any worse if we withdraw, and at least we will spare our troops. I can't help but think that if we stay, things will stabilize and improve at some point, and at least we won't have lost face. Leaving would be a defeat, like the Soviets leaving Afghanistan. Then again, staying might amount to throwing away more lives and resources on a bad investment. Still leaving seems fickle, especially if it is a consequence of congress changing hands; once folks would say "politics stops at the water's edge" and mean it. This link is a reasonable discussion about it. http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/   Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 824 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 1:59 pm:        Torn myself.... Leaving Vietnam seems to have been the right thing to do, and 30 y ears later we just reopened major economic relationships with them, peacefully. Staying in South Korea seems to have been the right thing to do, I couldn't imagine what that wackjob would have done if 100,000+ US troops weren't stationed at the Parallel. Staying in West Germany seems to have been the right thing to do, but that was such a wildly different situation. I have to think that with the Iranian crap going on, the US Military isn't leaving Iraq or Afghanistan for a LOOOOOOOOOONg time....First, it's a barter chip with Iran (we leave the region, you fess up) and secondly, should we move beyond bargaining, it's a lot easier to anhialate a nation when you have 75% of your military forces stationed immediately to the East AND to the West of that country.   Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 1969 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 12:11 pm:        The U.S. is already beaten in Iraq.   S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1776 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 12:16 pm:        montagnard- your either a genius at military strategy or a blabbering pessimistic maroon. I place my money on the latter. -SLK BTW, would you care to provide evidence of your claims of defeat? Don't fret, I won't waste my time holding my reath waiting for it... -SLK   Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 2070 Registered: 3-2004 Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 4:49 pm:        SLK, We don't have to worry about being beaten in Iraq--- that's not the problem. We just have to worry about dealing with Iran, North Korea, the dozen amateurs in Miami and Chicago who wanted combat boots and uniforms ("aspirational rather than operational," according to the FBI) and the next crop of storms along the Gulf Coast. All that is enough to put us under--- Iraq will take care of itself REGARDLESS of what we do, now that we have succeeded in squeezing the toothpaste out of THAT tube. But I'm happy to see that your knowledge of military strategy and your acquaintance with pessimistic "maroons" (are they like down-in-the-mouth purples, crimsons, or fuchsias?) give you such high confidence. Always with a "hi there."   themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 3043 Registered: 12-2001 Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 8:24 pm:        Is this just politics? http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/world/middleeast/25military.html?hp&ex=1151208 000&en=6477656e4067993d&ei=5094&partner=homepage   S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1791 Registered: 10-2005 Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 8:31 pm:        themp- gee would you look at that.... -SLK   Spinal Tap Citizen Username: Spinaltap11 Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 8:39 pm:        Montagnard, Are you an actual Montagnard?   Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1548 Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 10:25 pm:        I guess they just want to cut and run   Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 1971 Registered: 6-2003 Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 9:05 pm:        The puppet government in Iraq is faced with an awkward choice: Pardon the Iraqis that fought back against the U.S. occupation and risk the loss of U.S. support, or imprison them and risk the loss of support from their own people. When the U.S. withdraws from Iraq, the Iraqis that attacked only Americans will likely be seen as local heroes, somewhat like the IRA once was in Ireland. The longer a withdrawal is delayed, the more visible and humiliating the defeat will be.   joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 621 Registered: 1-2006 Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 9:30 pm:        Are you Montagnard, Hmong, you know, like, what are you?   Billy Jack Citizen Username: Kendalbill Post Number: 182 Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 10:32 am:        I think the wider issue is the lack of clear goals. What is disturbing about about Casey's plan is the lack of a definition of success. Seems to be the problem on these boards as well. I am uneasy about withdrawing too soon and creating a vacuum and instability (although it sure looks like it is happening anyway...). And I resent Cheney saying that a timetable is the absolute worst thing, only to find out they are discussing a timetable. But what ever happened to the Pottery Barn rule? At least the dems are consistent: its a failure, we screwed up, we have become the problem, lets get the hell out. And Murtha's plan to redeploy around the perimeter at least keeps the troops in theater if needed. Seems the republicans, or more specifically the Bushies are conflicted on all but one thing: they will withdraw some troops before november and try to save their butts. From where I sit, there is no shortage of cynicism in DC about this. Meanwhile our troops die and Iraqis die and we talk red state/blue state. Who cares-- lets just figure it out.   notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3495 Registered: 5-2001 Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 11:37 am:        I'm not convinced that all the toothpaste has been squeezed from the tube; there is always an opportunity to redress the problem and handle it better. But it is certainly true that we've painted ourselves into a corner. Very difficult to simply walk away now. We have no responsibility for the choices that the different factions in Iraq make, but we certainly do have a responsibility for the conditions that we leave behind us.   Billy Jack Citizen Username: Kendalbill Post Number: 183 Registered: 6-2002 Posted on Monday, June 26, 2006 - 12:08 pm:        So are we the toothpaste, the tube or the toothbrush? Or maybe the teeth. Or the plaque? Actually, I agree with you. I wish we didn't have a resposibility but we do. I'd even argue that we bear some responsibility for the conditions that caused radical factions to go at each other over there. We created an instability that was filled with old sectarian feuding- we can't just say "these guys are crazy" and walk away... I don't know the answer. I like Murtha's idea of redeploying outside of the area so that we have a presence but are not in the middle of-or part of- the problem. It might not be perfect, but it seems a more accurate view of what is going on then the extremes that are argued at both ends.