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Message |
    
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1572
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 12:31 pm: | 
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Spector to hold hearings on Signing Statements
The article outlines the positions of Arlen Specter versus the president on signing statements and whether it applies to the executive branch.
The following statement is a doozy from John Cornyn -
Quote:Courts can be expected to look to the legislature for intent, not the executive, said Sen. John Cornyn (news, bio, voting record), R-Texas., a former state judge.
"There's less here than meets the eye," Cornyn said. "The president is entitled to express his opinion. It's the courts that determine what the law is."
This from a guy who complains about 'activist' judges.
John Cornyn on Activist Jurists
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sbenois
Supporter
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15214
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 12:54 pm: |
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An hour ago you gave a list of things that you thought were more important for the senate to take up than flag burning.
Now you seem to think that signing statements is a critical issue and worth "Republican oversight". Why?
(because you think this will harm Bush) |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5541
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 12:58 pm: |
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From the article -
Quote:Bush has issued hundreds of signing statements invoking his right to interpret or ignore laws on everything from whistleblower protections to how Congress oversees the Patriot Act.
That sounds important. It's not because Bush is the one doing it. |
sbenois
Supporter
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15215
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 1:01 pm: |
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More important than the war in Iraq, spying on citizens without oversight, North Korea and Iran, the deficit, healthcare, education, the environment, terrorism, afghanistan, our trade deficit, port security, improving our intelligence capabilities, loose nukes, or dozens of other issues? |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5542
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 1:12 pm: |
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It's all related, Mr. S.
Congress has passed laws governing domestic surveillance, the environment, torture of prisoners, etc.
And the President has claimed the right to disregard (or "interpret") the laws so as to not follow the legal requirements. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5182
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 1:33 pm: |
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If Congress passes a law which says, "The United States will do XYZ about...
the war in Iraq;
spying on citizens without oversight;
North Korea and Iran;
the deficit;
healthcare;
education;
the environment;
terrorism;
afghanistan;
our trade deficit;
port security;
improving our intelligence capabilities;
loose nukes;
dozens of other issues"
And the President can sign the bill but say "except for me," and ignore it or do the contrary, well that seems highly relevant to those very issues. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1573
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 2:25 pm: |
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s - I did not start out this thread in any attempt at hypocrisy. If however you see there is a touch of hypocrisy then so be it. I think tom and Nohero summarized my feelings on the issue as I see them.
I am really posting my positions and certainly if Bush was supporting my positions by his actions he would be receiving certain praise instead of harsh criticism. So its not a personal hatred that spurs me to speak up but instead my sense of right and wrong.
I specifically state republican oversight because it is specifically the republican congress - both house and senate - that have interferred, prevented and looked the other way time after time. Until now.
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11967
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 3:00 pm: |
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The "Imperial" Presidency as advocated by Bush and Cheney is on a long term basis just as important as the other issues mentioned.
Congress, being Congress, is focusing on this because it is their ox that is getting gored. Still, the idea of Congress and the Courts being reduced to essentially advisory bodies is scary. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1194
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 7:31 pm: |
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Bob K,
I ordinarily enjoy your posts but you've obviously fallen for the far left's political mind tricks. They are good, I give them credit. It's funny how a President becomes "Imperial" when you don't agree with him. Something tells me the next liberal Pres will be "Imperial" in my mind and will be the knight on the white horse for your side. With that said, I give the far left huge political props for beating this drum all these years. They are definitely creating a bigger far left, but thankfully for my team, they are leaving the huge center unattended and we all know which direction the center has moved.
I definitely see the far left getting stronger and stronger, and the Republicans continuing to win and win. This is what happened to the far right. It takes years, decades in fact until the fringe realize they must abandon their wacky views to reach out. Then the Dems will retake control. Not in the next several election cycles however. This kind of "Imperial" talk, while it sounds great to your northeast liberal ears will help keep America Red. Thank you. |
Foj
Citizen
Username: Foger
Post Number: 1593
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 9:39 pm: |
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I love this................. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1195
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 7:53 am: |
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We agree. |
mjc
Citizen
Username: Mjc
Post Number: 1220
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 12:18 pm: |
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Actually, IMO, a president becomes "imperial" when he unilaterally decides which laws and which parts of laws the executive will enforce/abide by, bypassing (totally, 750 or so to zero, if I'm not mistaken) the constitutional process of veto and override.
I am thrilled to see both the Supreme Court and Sen. Specter taking a shot at getting the branches of government back in balance. The recent behavior of the executive, both its actions (Guantanamo, subpoena-free surveillance etc.) and its policy (signing statements) has been chilling. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5201
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 8:22 pm: |
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Lindsey Graham has also taken sideways swipes at the administration over this. Both he and Specter were at pains to point out that they tried to codify this behavior a few years ago, but Bush and Cheney would have none of it.
Do you wonder why they insist on acting unilaterally when they could also get what they wanted by cooperating with Congress? The most obvious answer is that they want an imperial presidency, and stooping to working with even a cooperative congress would work against that overriding aim. |
kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 791
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 9:31 pm: |
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Our President is doing his job; Congress needs to step up to the plate.
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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5204
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 11:11 pm: |
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well that's the thing ... congress offered to step up to the plate three years ago, but Bush wanted to do it without their input. So again, why the insistence on nonaccountability? |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1217
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 1, 2006 - 8:39 am: |
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Well, now Congress will have to step up to the plate and give the Pres exactly what he wants and the Dems are powerless to stop it. Beautiful! |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5205
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 1, 2006 - 9:23 am: |
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You're missing the point. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3461
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 1, 2006 - 5:20 pm: |
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Kenney is missing the point, but Southerner is only intersted in a different point. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1220
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 1, 2006 - 5:36 pm: |
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Rastro,
My only point is that while POTUS will have to change course due to this ruling the end results will be the same. I understand you don't like it, but do you really expect us just to cave? I don't ever recall the liberals from caving on issues when they were in power. If any of you libs expect us to wave the white flag on any issue then you truly are naive. That is one thing you will learn during your extended period of minority status that we learned over 40 years. There is no such thing as giving up on anything. We are currently playing on two different political levels. You guys will come around eventually. Right now, many of you still see yourselves as the rightful owners of power. One day it will dawn on you that you must fight hard. Right now, the Dems aren't willing to do this. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5211
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 1, 2006 - 5:50 pm: |
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You're still missing the point. "You" Republicans control the executive and legislative branches. So when you say, "do you really expect us just to cave," do you mean the Senate or the President? When you wonder if we expect you to "wave the white flag on any issue," are you talking about the Senate or the President? When you say we are currently playing on two different political levels you are correct in a way that you don't know.
Really seriously put aside the politics for just a second and think about this: It's Republican vs. Republican, there is no "tom's side" on this, only "southerner's side." Is the President just going to be allowed to pick and choose which laws -- laws passed by a Republican congress -- that he's going to obey or enforce, despite what a Republican-dominated Supreme Court rules?
What's the point of having total control of legislature when the president is going to ignore them anyway?
Please, deal with this on the level of principle not politics, because it's an intramural squabble between different conservative Republican wings right now. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1222
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 1, 2006 - 8:55 pm: |
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tom,
You are smart and perceptive. I agree this is an intramural squabble. However, watch as the Repubs are able to spin this and to be used against the Dems. This is what is beautiful.
Now, to forgot politics for a moment, which I loathe to do on MOL because that is when I get called names, and turning to principles as you ask.
I agree with what the President wanted to do in regards to these "enemy combatants". With that said, you must work within the framework of the law. The Supreme Court has spoken and I like what they said. Therefore, I expect the President to work within the framework of the law to accomplish his goal. I'm sure us conservatives and the liberals will once again be at odds of how to handle this situation but that is beside the point.
Now tom, please, cite me any example where the President has broken the law. That is what many posters have been saying from day one. Where is this proven and where did the SC state this? This is where politics come into the equation. The Dems have been screaming this for years in order to politicize the issue. I fully expect the Repubs to fight back and politicize this. You will see stump speeches by Republicans going after the Dems on the being weak issue. Of course, I agree, this is a manufactured argument due to the intrasquabble proposition, but anything goes at this point. I know most of you libs completely disagree with this attitude, but it is a learned behavior from years of having the iron fisted Dems control Congress like their own playground. A few more losses and I'm sure you'll agree with me. Many of you probably already do but are to afraid to agree with me.
As for your comment on playing on different levels, this is where I really laugh at the naive yet intelligent crowd. You undoubtedly believe your party is superior and less morally bankrupt. Either you are purposefully being neglectful of years past or you are superbly naive. Both sides appeal to the lowest common denominator and both sides are corrupt. I see two different levels because one side wins and the other side foolishly wastes opportunity after opportunity. There was no reason that Kerry should not have won. None. Zero. And yet, he blew it, and the Dems have done nothing different since 2004. I feel your pain however. I screamed and screamed at my party leaders for wasted opportunity after opportunity for years. Finally, the neo-cons got control of our own party and the proof has been in the pudding. I'm just waiting to see which faction of the Democratic Party finally wins out and gives us a message. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5212
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 1, 2006 - 9:53 pm: |
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It isn't so much that Bush broke the law on this one; what I find interesting is, even with a Congress acting like the lonely fat girl in the bar at closing time, Bush wanted no part of their utter craven pliancy and insisted on making his own laws up as he went along.
Now with Frist begging, pleading, to do anything at all no matter how dirty and nasty just to get close to the BMOC for a little while, Bush is in a position where he has to take sloppy seconds.
It's difficult to see how either side, let alone both, of this squabble can come out with dignity intact. Republicans are good at spin, but they're not Superman. |
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