| Author | Message | ||
     Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 584 Registered: 8-2003 |
The stuff has hit the fan in Gaza and there is deafening slience on MOL about a situation that can spiral completely out of control. What I can't understand is how the kidnapping of one IDF soldier can result in the collective punishment of a thousands of people. I am no fam of Hamas although it was democratically elected for a simple resaon: it will only Islamicize one of the few remaining secular spaces in the middle east. That said, is this the only option for Israel to get rid Hamas? The last thing we need is for the hard right in both societies to run the show for it will only spell disaster. ______________ Israel's Appalling Bombing in Gaza Starving in the Dark By VIRGINIA TILLEY On the excuse of rescuing one kidnapped soldier, Israeli is now bombing the Gaza Strip and is poised to re-invade. It has also arrested a third of the Palestinian parliament, wrecking even its fragile illusion of capacity and reducing the already-empty vessel of the Palestinian Authority into broken shards. In the shambles, Palestinians may be observing one bitter pill of compensation: vicious angling by Fatah to reclaim control of Palestinian national politics and its rivalry with Hamas are now rendered obsolete. Even the dogged international community cannot maintain its dogged pretense that the PA is actually capable of any governance at all. The demise of the disastrous Oslo model, Israel's device to ensure its final dismemberment of Palestinian land and its fatal cooptation of the Palestinian national movement, may finally be at hand. Perhaps Palestinian unity again has a chance. But no one knows what will replace the PA. It is therefore not surprising that this transformed diplomatic landscape is absorbing the principal attention of an anxious international community. Nevertheless, politics should not be the greatest international concern. For over in Gaza, one appalling act must now eclipse all thoughts of "road maps" or "mutual gestures": on Wednesday, Israeli war planes repeatedly bombed and utterly demolished Gaza's only power plant. About 700,000 of Gaza's 1.3 million people now have no electricity, and word is that power cannot be restored for six months. It is not the immediate human conditions created by this strike that are monumental. Those conditions are, of course, bad enough. No lights, no refrigerators, no fans through the suffocating Gaza summer heat. No going outside for air, due to ongoing bombing and Israel's impending military assault. In the hot darkness, massive explosions shake the cities, close and far, while repeated sonic booms are doubtless wreaking the havoc they have wrought before: smashing windows, sending children screaming into the arms of terrified adults, old people collapsing with heart failure, pregnant women collapsing with spontaneous abortions. Mass terror, despair, desperate hoarding of food and water. And no radios, television, cell phones, or laptops (for the few who have them), and so no way to get news of how long this nightmare might go on. But this time, the situation is worse than that. As food in the refrigerators spoils, the only remaining food is grains. Most people cook with gas, but with the borders sealed, soon there will be no gas. When family-kitchen propane tanks run out, there will be no cooking. No cooked lentils or beans, no humus, no bread the staples Palestinian foods, the only food for the poor. (And there is no firewood or coal in dry, overcrowded Gaza.) And yet, even all this misery is overshadowed by a grimmer fact: no water. Gaza's public water supply is pumped by electricity. The taps, too, are dry. No sewage system. And again, word is that the electricity is out for at least six months. The Gaza aquifer is already contaminated with sea water and sewage, due to over-pumping (partly by those now-abandoned Israeli settlements) and the grossly inadequate sewage system. To be drinkable, well water is purified through machinery run by electricity. Otherwise, the brackish water must at least be boiled before it can be consumed, but this requires electricity or gas. And people will soon have neither. Drinking unpurified water means sickness, even cholera. If cholera breaks out, it will spread like wildfire in a population so densely packed and lacking fuel or water for sanitation. And the hospitals and clinics aren't functioning, either, because there is no electricity. Finally, people can't leave. None of the neighboring countries have resources to absorb a million desperate and impoverished refugees: logistically and politically, the flood would entirely destabilize Egypt, for example. But Palestinians in Gaza can't seek sanctuary with their relatives in the West Bank, either, because they can't get out of Gaza to get there. They can't even go over the border into Egypt and around through Jordan, because Israel will no longer allow people with Gaza identification cards to enter the West Bank. In any case, a cordon of Palestinian police are blocking people from trying to scramble over the Egyptian border--and war refugees have tried, through a hole blown open by militants, clutching packages and children. In short, over a million civilians are now trapped, hunkered in their homes listening to Israeli shells, while facing the awful prospect, within days or weeks, of having to give toxic water to their children that may consign them to quick but agonizing deaths. One woman near the Rafah border, taking care of her nephews, spoke to BBC: "If I am frightened in front of them I think they will die of fear." If the international community does nothing, her children may soon die anyway. The astonishing scale of this humanitarian situation is indeed matched only by the deafening drizzle of international reaction. "Of course it is understandable that [the Israelis] would want to go after those who kidnapped their soldier," says Kofi Anan (while the Palestinian population cowers in the dark listening to thundering explosions demolish their society), "but it has to be done in such a way that civilian populations are not made to suffer." Even as Israel bombs smash Gaza's roadways, the G-8 stands up on its hind-legs to intone, "We call on Israel to exercise utmost restraint in the current crisis." How about the Russians, now angling for position in the new "Great Game" of the Middle East? "The right and duty of the government of Israel to defend the lives and security of its citizens are beyond doubt," says Russia's foreign ministry, as though poor Corporal Shalit warrants any of this mayhem, "But this should not be done at the cost of many lives and the lives of many Palestinian civilians, by massive military strikes with heavy consequences for the civilian population." And what says noble Europe, proud font of human rights conventions, architects of the misión civilizatrice? "The EU remains deeply concerned," mumbles the mighty defenders of humanitarian law, "about the worsening security and humanitarian developments." Seemingly soggy phrases like "deeply concerned" are diplomatic code for "We are seriously unhappy." But under these circumstances, "remains deeply concerned" suggests that this staggering crime is just one more sobering moment in the failed "road map." Diplomatic bubbles of unreality in the Middle East are the norm rather than the exception, but at some point the international community must face the very unwelcome fact that it needs to change gear. A country that claims kinship among the western democracies of Europe is behaving like a murderous rogue regime, using any excuse to reduce over a million people to utter human misery and even mass death. Plastering Corporal Shalit's face over this policy is no more convincing that South African newspapers emblazoning the picture of one poor murdered white doctor over their coverage of the 1976 Soweto uprising. Israel has done many things argued to be war crimes: mass house demolitions, closing whole cities for weeks, indefinite "preventative" detentions, massive land confiscation, the razing of thousands of square miles of Palestinian olive groves and agriculture, systematic physical and mental torture of prisoners, extrajudicial killings, aerial bombardment of civilian areas, collective punishment of every description in defiance of the Geneva Conventions--not to mention the general humiliation and ruin of the indigenous people under its military control. But destroying the only power source for a trapped and defenseless civilian population is an unprecedented step toward barbarity. It reeks, ironically, of the Warsaw Ghetto. As we flutter our hands about tectonic political change, we must take pause: in the eyes of history, what is happening in Gaza may come to eclipse them all. Dr. Virginia Tilley is a professor of political science, currently working in South Africa. She can be reached at tilley@hws.edu. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 1215 Registered: 2-2004 |
musttt, It will only spiral out of control for one side. Something tells me Israel isn't worried and I don't see anyone rushing to aid the poor misunderstood Palestinians. I'm just looking forward to Israel going after Syria. Of course, Syria wants no part of that which is why they are leaving their brethren flapping in the wind. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 847 Registered: 4-2006 |
Hmmmm.... so Israel is at fault for withdrawing from Gaza to see if the dysfunctional hate and violence mongering Palestinians can run their own government and attempt to move forward to negotiate a peace agreement. Instead the Palestinians don't use the massive international aid they get to feed their own people and build their own economy but instead divert it to terror, paying for weapons and building qassam missles, which they shoot by the hundreds into Israel proper to kill Israelis. Then, they invade Israel and kill 2 soldiers and abduct another, while also abducting and murdering an 18 year old religious kid. What peace-lovers ! Of course the bad Israelis respond by trying to get their soldier back and end missles being fired at people's homes. What colonialists and nazis those Israelis are! Now the Palestinians will get what they deserve for their savagery and electing a bunch of terrorists to lead them. How outrageous those Israelis are ! Virginia Tilley is a clueless leftie and if mustt-mustt believes her muck enough to post it I say drop his a## into Gaza and let him live with those like-minded savages and " Lord of the Flys" wanna-bes. Oh, sorry they would kidnap you too as a hated westerner. Hope you don't mind losing your head. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15227 Registered: 10-2001  |
It's always Israel's fault. Don't you get it? | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 848 Registered: 4-2006 |
sbenois- Really? I always blame the French and Jerry Lewis. | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 585 Registered: 8-2003 |
Fiction, Israel's reaction to the kidnapping of A soldier is hugely dispropotionate to what it is imposing on the civilian population of Gaza. Given that you support the war against Iraq, I wasn't surprised in the least by your racist outburst against the Palestinians. Sometimes you have to read stuff that you cannot digest because it allows you to empathize with the plight of those who have been suffering for years. The age of colonialism is over in case you have forgotten. One thing Israel has to face and this it knows very well is the imminence of Palenstinian statehood. Even the US is aware of that. That they are outraged by the Palestians who elected Hamas does not mean that they dismantle the govt whenever they want to. What the Israelis are doing right now goes against the norm of International law just as the US violated it when they attacked Iraq for bogus reasons. As I mentioned earlier, Hamas is not my cup of tea at all, politically speaking, because they are radicals who are hell bent on Islamicizing Palestinian society but the reason they came to power was because the Fatah (corrupt as it was) was perceived by most Palestinians to be incapable of negotiating any kind of meaningful settlement. In as much as I hate violence in the name of Islam or any other religion for that matter, I am equally opposed to racism that goes in the garb of Zionism. Capish? | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15228 Registered: 10-2001 |
The response is completely appropriate. Perhaps the Palentinians ought to be demanding his release. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1587 Registered: 10-2004  |
mustt, I think their response is over kill and I do feel badly for the suffering of the Palestinians. However, I dont have any idea what life is like in Israel where at any moment a human being can explode and kill dozens more at the same time. It must be horrible to live under those conditions for both Israelis and Palestinians. There will be no solution to this mess until both peoples have had enough of the violence and hatred and they decide to live and let live. Israels retaliation policies are as barbaric as the Palestinians policies. I would trust Israel before I trusted anything that a Palestinian came up with though. What would you want MOL to say about it. It seems like this has been going on in one way or another since I have been old enough to remember. I am imune and numb to what goes on there. | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 59 Registered: 4-2006  |
So what would be proportionate? Would the right thing be for them to kill two palestinians and kidnap a third? Does that actually make sense? I suppose at the same time they should fire a proportionate number of rockets into Gaza population centers. And, of course, over the last several years Israelis should have proportionately responded by sending suicide bombers into Palestinian pizza parlors, bus stops and catering halls. Does any serious person here think acting "proportionately" is appropriate in cases like this? It sounds ridiculous to me. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12000 Registered: 5-2001 |
I really don't have an answer. However, mass retaliations doesn't work. Both the Germans (mostly in France) and the Japanese (in the Philipines) used mass retaliation against the civilian population because of actions by pro Allied "terroists". It basically just further pissed the population off and increased support for the "insurgents", "terrorists" or whatever you want to call them. I honestly don't think this is working for Israel either, but as I said, I don't have an answer. One of the big mistakes Israel made recently, and I believe it was done at the "suggestion" of the USA, was to allow Hamas on the ballot. I am not comparing Israel to Germany or Japan. However, please remember that the winners get to write the history books. | ||
| las Citizen Username: Las Post Number: 1985 Registered: 10-2003 |
There is an entire generation of Palestinians raised in oppression - oppression that has been imposed by their own leaders, not the impositions of the Israelis. Maybe to make real change Isarel needs to take over and raise a new generation based on more secular beliefs, then allow them to take the reigns and rule themselves in another thirty years. By then the population might understand education is foremost and peaceful resistance always gets the sought after results. Like the US, Israel values human life above all else, and that's what differentiates us from terrorists. The response is indeed quite muscular, but Palestine doesn't play by the same rules as the secular world: there are no compromises, it is all or nothing. Israel has to get their soldier back, so they have no choice but to use all their strength to do. It's sad - this could be an opportunity for diplomacy, but only one side understands that concept. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15229 Registered: 10-2001 |
Bingo | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 586 Registered: 8-2003 |
Las, I am stunned by your response. To characterize the Palestinians as oppressors themselves borders on the ridiculous. You have no sense of history when you say that and to argue that Israel should rule for another thirty years to secularize the Palestinians stems from a racist beilef that Israelis are culturally superior to the Palestinians. You forget that Palestine is of the few remaining secular spaces that is being radicalized by Islamists thanks to Israel's occupation of Palestine. It's a joke when you say that Israel values human life like the US. Are you kidding yourself? Look at the number of Palestinians who have died over the years when compared to Israeli lives lost. I am not condoning violence on the part of Palestinians but to suggest that peaceful resistance and education will get them somewhere may not sound like a good strategy to them, especially given the humiliation they have had to suffer at the hands of a colonizing power. Surely both parties have to renounce violence in order to come to an agreement that will establish peace in the world. The US is not a neutral player in this but the need is for it to become truly neutral and set aside national interests aside. Only then will there be any chance to see a resolution. | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3476 Registered: 9-2001  |
Mustty: You are missing a few points. First, Israel has said it will support a two-state solution. However, Hamas has refused to recognize the State of Israel, even implicitly. The radical arm of Hamas is dedicated to pushing all Jews into the sea. The more "moderate" political arm is dedicated to a right of return, which is disingenous at best as it is tantamount to suicide for the Israeli state, and therefore totally unacceptable. If we say Israel must accept this, why not give the Celts control of all of the British Isles? Why not allow Native Americans to reclaim Manhattan? It is simply not historically or politically realistic to demand a right of return for Palestinians. Second, the election was not a referendum on Hamas. It was a rejection of the corrupt and venal Palestinian Authority from Arafat down through Abu Mazen who could not get it under control. Post-election surveys showed that most Palestinians support a two-state solution, some insisting on right of return, but many willing to give that up in exchange for an end to the West Bank occupation. In other words, most Palestinians do not agree with Hamas's dedication to armed struggle and eradication of Israel. They do not necessarily oppose it, either, because they will benefit from it if it succeeds, but the vote was not a vote for violence. The vote was for someone, anyone, who could be less corrupt and provide basic social services, which Hamas had done in the past through private means. Clearly, running a government is a different kettle of fish, as Hamas is finding out. Hamas could score a huge PR coup and turn political jiu-jitsu against Israel by publically accepting Israel's right to exist and agreeing to compromise on the right of return issue. This would force Israel to put up or shut up. But Hamas cannot see its way clear to this. Israel, on its side, has to recognize that an economically viable Palestinian state is far more preferable than the bankrupt rump-state with refugee camps and the squalor that exists now. A strong Palestinian middle class would provide stability, labor, and a market for trade. Sure, they would not be best friends, and Israel will always have to be on guard against radical elements in Palestine. But it can and should take steps--where reciprocated--to help build the infrastructure. Bombing the Gaza power plant as punishment for kidnapping the tank soldier is not the proper response--short-term or long-term. Israel will have to cooperate on water rights, passage of materials, banking, and other critical infrastructure issues and not see Palestinians solely as a cheap source of labor. And this can be worked out. Prominent Palestinians and Israelis have come to agreement on almost all contentious issues for a two-state solution (except riparian rights)--look up the Geneva Accord on-line. It is an amazing document that shows it can be done if both sides are willing. You can blame Israel for its tactics. But I defy you to find other ways Israel can respond to a hostile neighbor that refuses to recognize its right to exist, shoots hundreds of randomly-aimed missiles at it daily, and supports suicide bombers and kidnappers. This is a two-state problem, and it requires willing partners on both sides, and while the Israeli's surely are not blameless in this, right now the vast majority of overt aggression is coming from Gaza, and Hamas is doing nothing to stop it, and perhaps is actually directing it. Until Hamas shows that it wants to find a realistic political solution, there is no way Israel can or should concede one inch. However, once Hamas does this, then the onus is on Israel and if Israel flinches, it should bear the consequences of international pressure. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15231 Registered: 10-2001 |
Big old Israel is a colonizing power. The vast majority of the land that was partitioned by the UN went to the Palestinians. But that's wasn't good enough. So their neighbors and allies started a war. And then another one a few years later. In each case, big old Israel fights for survival and wins. In 1967, Israel's neighbors once again try to eliminate her and this time Israel wins the war in six days, taking over land in the process - land that to a great degree will give her a strategic chance to protect herself against future attacks. Not surprisingly, Israel decides to keep the land. Six years later, on the holiest day of the year, Israel is attacked once again and once again they win. Over the next 30 years, Israel tries to build fences with her neighbors, including the return of most of that land captured in the '67 war - and that's still not good enough. Nothing is ever good enough. Israel is a "colonizing power" after all. Has anyone ever called Jordan a colonizing power for annexing the land that was given to the Palestinians in the partition plan? The Palestinians and their neighbors have done everything possible to humiliate themselves. | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 587 Registered: 8-2003 |
ESL, You make very good points in your well-thought response. I agree that Hamas has to recognize the right of Israel to exist and from what I've read they are coming around to that due to internal and external pressure. I agree the elections may not have been a referendum on Hamas but remember that they literally took over the social services including education and needless to say, Fatah's corruption did not help matters either. The last thing that moderate Arabs and Muslims and even the left wanted was to see Hamas in power and that's exactly what happened - a nightmare scenario. But then elections in Israel and Palestine are mostly about "the other" than any domestic issue as such. If Hamas were to reverse its position on israel, then the onus would be on Israel to respond adequately as you suggested. I also agree that the right of return has be compromised on by Hamas and other radical elements because it's neither viable nor realistic. But what has to end is the daily humiliation of the Palestinians. Trust cannot begin to find ground when a whole population is systematically oppressed. Just as Sharon, a right winger realized that withdrawal from Gaza was imperative as a long-term strategy for Israel to live in peace ( a move supported by a majority of Israelis), Hamas too finds itslef in a position where it can actually make a difference and it should put the power it has to good use. I do not trust both parties to come to agreement on their own without the meaningful intervention of the US and other European and Arab powers. | ||
| las Citizen Username: Las Post Number: 1987 Registered: 10-2003 |
Mustt, the oppressors are Hamas and Fatah. They lead their people with violence, untruths and fear - that is oppression. Independent of the Israelis, they have raised an entire generation of people who believe violence is the only means to their ends. The humiliation is not by a colonizing power, as you suggest, rather by a people who are powerless to afford change against rulers who rule with guns in their hands. Have the Israelis contributed to the current situation? Of course - but their policies are in respone to ruling terrorist regimes - if these goverments had any interest in their people, they'd learn to reign in the terror. By the way, I appreciate your pointing out I don't have a sense of history and what sense I do have stems from racist beliefs. Way to communicate. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15233 Registered: 10-2001 |
Bingo again. Thank you LAS. | ||
| las Citizen Username: Las Post Number: 1988 Registered: 10-2003 |
Dearest Sbenois: I am honored. Twice. | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 588 Registered: 8-2003 |
So it's the Israelis' burden to save the souls of the Palestinians... Way to go, Las. Enough already with the verbosity, Sbenois! | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12003 Registered: 5-2001 |
I hate, I mean really hate, to do this, but here is a minor rewrite of Las's first post: There is an entire generation of Jews raised in oppression - oppression that has been imposed by their own leaders, not the impositions of the Fatherland. Maybe to make real change Germany needs to take over and raise a new generation based on more secular beliefs, then allow them to take the reigns and rule themselves in another thirty years. Josef Goebbels telling Von Ribbentrop how to spin Nazi policy to other countries. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 853 Registered: 4-2006 |
I have attempted to read the posts here with a degree of tolerance for people who have half-baked knowledge, muddled moral equivalency issues, and misguided humanist tendencies, and perhaps a nice tad of anti-semetism, but I can't. Instead of smacking around the intellectually weak and febrile here extensively, I will post this. Israel engaged in a defensive war in 1967, that resulted in acquiring Gaza and the West Bank, ( Jordan which had possession of the West Bank was asked to stay out of the war, they did not). The "Palestinians" (fictitious term) were left to rot in Gaza by the Egyptians rather than integrated into Egyptian society and became the major clients of United Nations relief. The Palestinians in the West Bank were denied any self-government rights by the Hashamite rulers of Jordan ( which today is a predominately Palestinian country in demographics and should be such). During Israeli control the area of the West Bank experienced prosperity and had a solid economy. Palestinians worked in Israel and had a higher standard of living than in much of the Arab world. This changed after the Oslo Accords in 1993 when Israel agreed to allow Yasser Arafat to return to the lands as part of a prospective peace deal that would create a Palestinian state. In 1996 the Palestinians instead began to wage a war against Israel, the intifada. The simple truth is, is that the Palestinians want the whole land, not a part, and wish to bleed Israel to death through a campaign of terror. The poor Palestinians who are " suffering" today are doing so in order to secure those ends and the demise of the Jewish state. As for mustt_mustt, if you need to charge that I am a racist, which my personal life would show anything but, I have to conclude you, instead, are a closet anti-semite. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12004 Registered: 5-2001 |
Why are the Hassamites less legitimate than the Israelis? Why should they cede their land to the Palestinians and Israel shouldn't. Shouldthe Hassamites have to suffer because they took in (admitedly probably not with great enthusiasm) the Palestinians who were evicted from what was once called Palestine. Personally, I feel that both ideas are ridiculous, but where is the moral and legal difference? | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15235 Registered: 10-2001 |
Do you have a problem with my posts? Are they too verbose for you or not verbose enough? | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 589 Registered: 8-2003 |
FactvsFiction, You characterized the Palestinians as "savages," a term that European colonizers used to describe the natives. That's a racist term in my dictionary. You many not be a racist in your "personal life," but I went according to what you said in the public sphere. As for your charge that i am "a closet anti-semite," I shall let it pass for now... | ||
| las Citizen Username: Las Post Number: 1990 Registered: 10-2003 |
...here is a minor rewrite of Las's first post... BobK: Oops...Better get back to drafting my world peace doctrine!  In my next version: peace making soldiers dressed as monks. Millions of them, dropped on the population from the safe distance of 15,000 feet... | ||
| FlyingSpaghettiMonst Citizen Username: Noodlyappendage Post Number: 194 Registered: 11-2005  |
As for your charge that i am "a closet anti-semite," I shall let it pass for now.. Musty, is that because you ain't in the closet about that? | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 1221 Registered: 2-2004 |
I love how libs call everyone a racist they disagree with. Mustt is a classic. Mustt is every bit a racist as the rest of us. Someone uses the term savages and they are automatically a racist. I'm sure I'm considered a racist simply by my MOL screen name. And this is without knowing what race I am. Mustt is a joke and should be taken as such. I get it musttt. You are really enjoying this. But your love for the Palestinians means nothing. Israel doesn't care what your view is nor should they. You can know continue with your anti-semitic thread you racist lib! | ||
| mantram Citizen Username: Mantram Post Number: 248 Registered: 8-2003  |
I would LOVE to know what profound distinction those of you screaming "Anti-Semitism" make between real anti-semistism and legitimate criticism of Israeli policy? Where exactly did Mustt veer away from criticizing the policies of a government to attacking a people? Calling people "anti-Semitic" because they have a problem with Israel's politics is like something a whiny child would do. How do you know you aren't using the negative label "anti-Semitic" as a tool to keep people from criticizing Israel? If somebody has a problem with Israeli's politics, what manner of expression qualifies as non-anti-Semitic? Or is all discussion of Israel off limits? | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2662 Registered: 5-2001 |
Southerner, this discussion would really be much better off without your feeble attempts at reducing everything to lib vision. Wendy Lauter a pro Israel LIBERAL | ||
| Blue Heeler Citizen Username: Blueheeler Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2005  |
Thomas Friedman put it well and succinctly, in The New York Times, a while back: "Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction -- out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East -- is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest" http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0C1EFF3D590C758DDDA90994DA40448 2&incamp=archive:search Of course, statements like the ones in the posted article above, never get old: "...country that claims kinship among the western democracies of Europe is behaving like a murderous rogue regime..." "Israel has done many things argued to be war crimes..." And, of course, the genetic signature of similar anti-semitic drivel, comparing Israel to the Nazis: "It reeks, ironically, of the Warsaw Ghetto. As we flutter our hands about tectonic political change, we must take pause: in the eyes of history, what is happening in Gaza may come to eclipse them all." BlueHeeler | ||
| kathleen Citizen Username: Symbolic Post Number: 553 Registered: 3-2005 |
From Ha'aretz, 02/07/2006 A black flag By Gideon Levy A black flag hangs over the "rolling" operation in Gaza. The more the operation "rolls," the darker the flag becomes. The "summer rains" we are showering on Gaza are not only pointless, but are first and foremost blatantly illegitimate. It is not legitimate to cut off 750,000 people from electricity. It is not legitimate to call on 20,000 people to run from their homes and turn their towns into ghost towns. It is not legitimate to penetrate Syria's airspace. It is not legitimate to kidnap half a government and a quarter of a parliament. A state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organization. The harsher the steps, the more monstrous and stupid they become, the more the moral underpinnings for them are removed and the stronger the impression that the Israeli government has lost its nerve. Now one must hope that the weekend lull, whether initiated by Egypt or the prime minister, and in any case to the dismay of Channel 2's Roni Daniel and the IDF, will lead to a radical change. Everything must be done to win Gilad Shalit's release. What we are doing now in Gaza has nothing to do with freeing him. It is a widescale act of vengeance, the kind that the IDF and Shin Bet have wanted to conduct for some time, mostly motivated by the deep frustration that the army commanders feel about their impotence against the Qassams and the daring Palestinian guerilla raid. There's a huge gap between the army unleashing its frustration and a clever and legitimate operation to free the kidnapped soldier. To prevent the army from running as amok as it would like, a strong and judicious political echelon is required. But facing off against the frustrated army is Ehud Olmert and Amir Peretz's tyro regime, weak and happless. Until the weekend lull, it appeared that each step proposed by the army and Shin Bet had been immediately approved for backing. That does not bode well, not only for the chances of freeing Shalit, but also for the future management of the government, which is being revealed to be as weak as the Hamas government. The only wise and restrained voice heard so far was that of the soldier's father, Noam Shalit, of all people. That noble man called at what is clearly his most difficult hour, not for stridency and not for further damage done to the lives of soldiers and innocent Palestinians. Against the background of the IDF's unrestrained actions and the arrogant bragging of the latest macho spokesmen, Maj. Gen. Yoav Gallant of the Southern Command and Maj. Gen. (res.) Amos Gilad, Shalit's father's voice stood out like a voice crying in the wilderness. Sending tens of thousands of miserable inhabitants running from their homes, dozens of kilometers from where his son is supposedly hidden, and cutting off the electricity to hundreds of thousands of others, is certainly not what he meant in his understated emotional pleas. It's a shame nobody is listening to him, of all people. The legitimate basis for the IDF's operation was stripped away the moment it began. It's no accident that nobody mentions the day before the attack on the Kerem Shalom fort, when the IDF kidnapped two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from their home in Gaza. The difference between us and them? We kidnapped civilians and they captured a soldier, we are a state and they are a terror organization. How ridiculously pathetic Amos Gilad sounds when he says that the capture of Shalit was "illegitimate and illegal," unlike when the IDF grabs civilians from their homes. How can a senior official in the defense ministry claim that "the head of the snake" is in Damascus, when the IDF uses the exact same methods? True, when the IDF and Shin Bet grab civilians from their homes - and they do so often - it is not to murder them later. But sometimes they are killed on the doorsteps of their homes, although it is not necessary, and sometimes they are grabbed to serve as "bargaining chips," like in Lebanon and now, with the Palestinian legislators. What an uproar there would be if the Palestinians had grabbed half the members of the Israeli government. How would we label them? Collective punishment is illegitimate and it does not have a smidgeon of intelligence. Where will the inhabitants of Beit Hanun run? With typical hardheartedness the military reporters say they were not "expelled" but that it was "recommended" they leave, for the benefit, of course, of those running for their lives. And what will this inhumane step lead to? Support for the Israeli government? Their enlistment as informants and collaborators for the Shin Bet? Can the miserable farmers of Beit Hanun and Beit Lahia do anything about the Qassam rocket-launching cells? Will bombing an already destroyed airport do anything to free the soldier or was it just to decorate the headlines? Did anyone think about what would have happened if Syrian planes had managed to down one of the Israeli planes that brazenly buzzed their president's palace? Would we have declared war on Syria? Another "legitimate war"? Will the blackout of Gaza bring down the Hamas government or cause the population to rally around it? And even if the Hamas government falls, as Washington wants, what will happen on the day after? These are questions for which nobody has any real answers. As usual here: Quiet, we're shooting. But this time we are not only shooting. We are bombing and shelling, darkening and destroying, imposing a siege and kidnapping like the worst of terrorists and nobody breaks the silence to ask, what the hell for, and according to what right? http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=733427 | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2006 |
People like Mustt and Gideon Levy are great at criticizing the actions taken, but I don't see anything constructive here. Mustt criticizes operations that are disproportionate, but doesn't say what would be proportionate. Levy says that the IDF's actions are illegitimate, but doesn't say what would be a legitimate response. The reason is that there is nothing the Israelis could do that Mustt and Levy would accept, short of capitulating. Come on Mustt, make an actual suggestion. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 632 Registered: 2-2003 |
The only strategy that will benefit Israel and the Palestinians at the end of the day is one that strengthens the moderate Palestinians (led by Abbas) and weakens the extremist Palestinians (led by Hamas). The objective must be to discredit Hamas in the eyes of the Palestinian people for allowing the digging of the tunnel, which had to be a major operation. Hamas had to know it was taking place. If the Palestinians are to achieve statehood, they must not only recognize Israel but they must be committed to preventing attacks against Israel. Hamas fails both tests in words and deeds. The Israeli Government assumes that the pain that is being inflicted on the entire Palestinian population will turn people against Hamas. I think this logic is wrong and that it's more likely the pain being inflicted will turn more Palestinians toward Hamas and strengthen the hands of the extremists and terrorists. What should be done? Here's my recommendation: Ehud Olmert and Noam Shalit (the father Gilad Shalit) should meet with Abbas in Jerusalem and announce a joint program (with Abbas's office -- not with the Hamas-led PA) that would include an Israeli military pullback, the restoration of electricity and other services in Gaza and a joint effort to halt terrorist attacks on Israel. And of course the centerpiece of this effort would be a collaborative effort to return Gilad Shalit to Israel. Such an approach would give credibility to Abbas and the forces of moderation in the eyes of the Palestinian people and discredit Hamas and the terrorists. And it has just as much chance of returning Gilad Shalit safely as the current strategy of force and pain. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1588 Registered: 10-2004 |
Larry that is a specious argument. Mustt points out the problem, he doesnt have to offer a solution. The people elected to offer solutions are in Israel and Washington and those people are not making good decisions right now. Israel can be criticized and should be criticized because as a democracy -sort of - and as a people who know what it is to be persecuted and knows what is right and what is wrong, they have taken the position that mass punishment is appropriate. I dont know the answer, you dont know the answer, shoot even sbenois doesnt know the answer. Maybe there is no answer and maybe total anhilation of everything in the middle east is the only answer. Everybody loses so everybody wins. I just know that doing the wrong thing doesnt make things right. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro  Post Number: 3463 Registered: 5-2004  |
Paul, I respect you, but the situation you describe is as likely to happen in this reality as Santa Claus jumping out a cake, naked, at my brother-in-law's bachelor party. And I think it is wholly unreasonable to expect the relative of someone kidnapped by Palestinians to spearhead a collaborative effort with other Palestinians to get him returned. I understand your rationale, but that would require the removal of all emotion from this issue. And in a place like the Middle East, emotion is a factor in every action. Hoops, Israel is a democracy. Period. No half way, no sort of. Please explain in what way you think it is not. Citizens have the right to vote. All citizens votes are counted equally (as opposed to our 3/5 ratio in the 1800's or as in Ohio). It is a democracy. No less so than England or Canada. It is not the same form of Democracy that we have here in the US, but neither is "the largest democracy in the world" - India. What people seem to be missing is that Hamas is no longer simply a terrorist organization. They are the official government party of the Palestinian people. As such, international actions by that group can be reasonably construed as actions by the state. So if Hamas kidnaps someone, it is not unreasonable to conclude that the Palestinian Authority, as a government, sanctioned the action. That would make this an act of war, and Israel's reaction a response to that act of war. Now, I'm not saying there is no other way to respond, or even that Israel's reaction is the best response. But you've got two groups of people who have lived under incredibly stressful conditions for many years. And it would be naive to believe that Israel's response was not predictable. I would argue it was not just predictable, but an intended response. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15240 Registered: 10-2001 |
Really? Your quote is a great example of why some of us get so aggravated when discussing Israeli politics. The onus, it seems, is always on Israel to ease up or make a concession or to take some action leading to peace. Yet there is too little (or no) criticism of the other side. What happened to Hamas being elected? Are they "making good decisions right now"? Wouldn't freeing the soldier immediately be a good solution? Yet no one on this thread criticizing Israel opts for it. Instead, it's all about big bad Israel and the terrible things she does. And now there's a new twist: it's Israel's responsibility to give moderate Palestinians and Abbas credibility. Why? Perhaps Abbas ought to get tough with his own people, turn the solider over to Israel, and see if that earns him some credibility with the moderates and the powers that be in Israel. It's a two-way street. Let the Palestinians start driving first. | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-2006 |
Abbas had been President for long before Hamas was elected to office. He had the obligation under several agreements to disarm militias like Hamas and to take action to stop them from attacking, and he declined to do so. He's done nothing to stop the rocket attacks on southern Israel. Conventional wisdom says he was too weak to proceed with such an order, but why does anyone assume he even wanted to do so? Perhaps he approves of such actions. After all, he was the money guy at the PLO in 1972 who was in charge of funding the Black September attack on the Munich Olympics. His history doesn't scream "moderation." Personally I think it's all just a patronage game to him. Anyway, there's something to the conventional wisdom: So what if he were willing to go to Jerusalem and announce an end to attacks? Obviously he doesn't command everyone in Gaza with a gun, and it's highly unlikely he'd actually be willing to use what authority he has to try to disarm militias. If there were a good solution to this problem it would have been tried already, but in the absence of it the only option the Israelis have is to defend themselves. Since they can't just go in and attack only the parties responsible it's inevitable that innocent parties will suffer, but it's their own fault for permitting and encouraging attacks on Israel. And yes, I do think that if you criticize one course of action and not make a constructive suggestion you're not being helpful and you don't earn any credibility. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1589 Registered: 10-2004 |
s - I am not saying the kidnappers or terrorists or people who are responsible for any of this violence are to be forgiven. In fact I would hope that they are caught and punished. but thats not what happened here. just responding with overwhelming force and punishing innocent, or if not innocent that non-involved people cant be right. How is that right? I agree that nations lined up against Israel and not recognizing Israel is likewise wrong. I see that there is violence directed at Israel that has no purpose other then the absolute destruction of Israel. That still does not give in my opinion any right for Israel to attack innocent people. Israel is very powerful and has all sorts of weaponry and equipment in its arsenal. There is no need to over do, to abuse that power. Israel should try to be the 'bigger man', and try to be so every time. It should protect itself in any way it can but it should not oppress people that have no way of defending themselves. How can that be considered a good decision? How can there be peace, truce, understanding or just respect in this situation? | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15241 Registered: 10-2001 |
You are kidding me right? Israel should be the bigger man? Let these "innocent people" recall that they voted in to office a terrorist organization that is committed to the destruction of Israel. Israel has tried to "be the bigger man" for sixty years Hoops. They had to defend themselves from extinction at the very moment that they came into being. They had to fight wars in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973 in order to survive. They've won land and given just about all of it back in the hopes for peace. They've tried and done everything possible to work towards two simple goals: to survive and to be recognized. Israel's spent virtually all of its life surrounded by hostile enemies and fought upstream in a UN that, by its makeup, has prevented them from ever being on the Security Council or having an equal voice. Let the Palestinians be the bigger man. Let them stop with the suicide bombings , let them drop their commitment to the destruction of Israel and let them release the soldier. And let them come to a peace table with suggestions for what the hell it's going to take for peace - with a prerequisite being the security and existence of Israel. |
