| Author | Message | ||
     Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 878 Registered: 4-2006 |
At what point does apparent anti-semetism become ok due to your politics? Or ignored? Lets take the case of anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan, a popular figure among " progressive" democrats and anti-war activists. Ms. Sheehan is quoted as stating in a usenet message from March 15, 2005- "}He was killed for lies (her son) and for a PNAC neo-con agenda to benefit Israel. My son joined the army to protect America and not Israel." Ms. Sheehan has also apparently called repeatedly for Israel to " end the occupation". One of her primary supporters is the Crawford Peace House, whose web site displays a picture of "Palestine" in the place of the State of Israel. The National Vanguard ,a group of white supremists, have also hailed her apparent recognition of the dangers to American society from the Jews. So does it appear to you that Ms. Sheehan believes that a dark cabal of Jews are running the country and getting us into wars? Isn't this the stuff of anti-semetism? Is there otherwise an excuse for these comments, for example, because her politics are otherwise " correct"? Do these comments make Ms. Sheehan more credible or less in your eyes? Do you support her, if you do, as strongly if she said these things? Please share your thoughts. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 636 Registered: 2-2003 |
Cindy Sheehan has spoken many truths about the war in Iraq -- especially that it is a war predicated on lies -- and she has thus raised public awareness about the leading moral and political issue facing America. Cindy has also said some things that are wrong, which have detracted from her primary message of speaking truth to power. You have cited one of her statements that is wrong -- that the invasion and occupation of Iraq was conceived to "benefit Israel." In fact, the invasion and occupation of Iraq is antithetical to Israel's interests. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 2044 Registered: 3-2004  |
she has lost all credibility. her original intent was true and emotionally charged. now she is just a shrieking circus act. | ||
| curmudgeon Citizen Username: Curmudgeon Post Number: 769 Registered: 5-2001  |
Fiction, there are so many things wrong with your post that I hardly know where to start. First, you wrote that Cindy Sheehan has been "quoted as stating ..." without saying who "quoted" her, where the quote came from, what context is what is, or anything else about it. Ms Sheehan may have written it, or she may not have, but from your post we have no way to tell. You simply set her up, putting words in her mouth so you could then take potshots at her. Secondly, your post assumes that opposition to policies of the Israeli government makes one an anti-semite, just like the wingnuts assume that opposition to US government policies makes one anti-American. Thirdly, you write that one of her "primary supporters" has a map showing Palestine instead of Israel. What is your source of information that "Crawford Peace House" is one of her primary supporters (or that it exists at all)? What does "primary supporter" mean? You provide no url for the purported website, so we have no way of knowing if it's real or you just made it up - rather like the Sheehan quote you offered. Even if this group does exist, and it does support Ms Sheehan's anti-war campaign, does she identify herself with them? And even if she does support an independent Palestine (something, by the way, that many Jews also support), what does that have to do with her anti-war activities? Fourth, you suggest that because some supposed nut-job white-supremacist group reads something into what she allegedly wrote, that makes HER somehow suspect. Not to mention that, like the other "facts" you cite, you haven't sourced what you wrote about the "National Vanguard." You've taken a bunch of unsupported allegations, drawn the most extreme assumptions from each one, tied them to each other in unsupportable ways, and used them to spin a conclusion that's as outrageous as it is unlikely. And why? To attack a person who asks a simple question of our President, one that resonates with many, many Americans - "Why are we in Iraq?" Instead of addressing the question, you seek merely to smear the one asking it. I suggest you sign up for posting privileges on FreeRepublic.com. The freepers would love you - you seem to reason the same way that they do. And by the way, it's anti-semitism, not semetism. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5219 Registered: 5-2001 |
The map thing is a canard. Deep inside the site (http://crawfordpeace.nfshost.com/image/tid/17) is a small photo of a guy holding up a sign, with unreadable text, that appears to show the historical change in boundaries from the time of the protectorate (when there was no "Israel", only "Palestine") onward. As for her support by whomever, there are a lot of very bad people who support Bush too. Israel is a fine country full of good, intelligent, creative people; that doesn't mean that you have to voice unwavering support for every move their government makes. I don't like a lot of what Putin is doing, but I'm not anti-Slavic. I didn't like Berlusconi, but I'm not anti-Italian. The government of Argentina is a mess, but everyone I've ever met from there was simply wonderful to be with. Does advocating we pull out of Germany make you anti-German? So why does criticizing acts of the Israeli government make you anti-semitic? | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2817 Registered: 6-2002 |
Criticizing the acts of the Israeli government does not make one an antisemite. The opposition in Israel, right and left, criticizes the government. However there are antisemites who use opposition to the policies of the Israeli government as a cover for their antisemitism. Back to the topic, it was my understanding that Cindy Sheehan has denied making the statements attributed to her above. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1594 Registered: 10-2004  |
curmudgeon -  | ||
| Twokitties Citizen Username: Twokitties Post Number: 451 Registered: 8-2004 |
"your post assumes that opposition to policies of the Israeli government makes one an anti-semite, just like the wingnuts assume that opposition to US government policies makes one anti-American." Nicely said Curmudgeon. Happy 4th. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 879 Registered: 4-2006 |
I used "anti-semetism" as a goof basically, lest I be accused of libeling Ms.Sheehan by even the remotest possibility of saying " anti-semitism" was involved in her comments. Especially given the ideologically driven posters here on MOL who would view such a figure as a "sacred cow", ( which seems to be the case so far). But... Curmudgeon- The usenet post by Cindy Sheehan is widely available on the web. Google it. She apparently has not repudiated or disavowed them as being her actual comments, so, so much for your questioning them. What troubles me from your post is your flimsy avoidance of the substance of the comments and consideration of the totality of Sheehan's actions and supporters. If the comments are accurate Ms. Sheehan is essentially saying that our government got us into a war for the benefit of Israel (i.e. the Jews) and by inference the Jews are thereby controlling our government. Seems like the stuff of "anti-semitism" to me akin to the "Protocols of The Elders of Zion". Taken together with her comments about Israel ending its "occupation" ( without condemning Palestinian terrorism ) and her fellow travelers at Crawford ( a read about their Middle East views is quite interesting), I believe there is a case that can be had. Let's drop the " any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic" canard and focus on that, shall we? BTW, IMHO Pat Buchanan is an "anti-semite" given his similiar comments about Iraq and history of antipathy to Israel. I feel republicans should shun that boor as much as possible, and should not associate with him. It seems to me,given the posts so far, that as long as the person is advancing the party line or the agenda that comments of this nature are defensible at all costs and will get a pass. Too bad. Does this change if another ethnic, racial, or religious group is involved? | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 2047 Registered: 3-2004 |
i have to agree. curmudgeon's post was more of a complaint about a lack of sources, (all of which he/she could have easily found using google), rather than a discussion of the substance of the post. the only other real comment he/she made was, Fourth, you suggest that because some supposed nut-job white-supremacist group reads something into what she allegedly wrote, that makes HER somehow suspect. this of course brings to mind the old saying about one being judged by the company keeps. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 880 Registered: 4-2006 |
Libertarian- Nice to see some independent thought on MOL.  | ||
| Spinal Tap Citizen Username: Spinaltap11 Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2006  |
Here is a link to a pretty detailed account of Ms. Sheehan's activities, associates, and statements: http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2031 Illuminating to say the least but while I think pretty poorly of her and she has said some off-the-wall things about Israel, I don’t think she is an anti-Semite. She just does not strike me as a racist. And if we are going to start editing each other’s posts, Semitism should be capitalized. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5569 Registered: 10-1999  |
I love Discoverthenetwork.org I think it's hilarious. I love their big page, with pictures of all of the people who are part of the "network" - http://discoverthenetworks.com/individual.asp They even have Bruce Springsteen as part of the big conspiracy. They seem to be upset that Mr. Springsteen was supporting President Bush's opponent in the last election. I guess that makes him a communist, or a sandinista, or an anti-semite, or whatever other name-calling is used by the Administration's supporters, as a substitute for intelligent discourse. Oh, and the "Cindy Sheehan is anti-semitic" stuff is a little old now, isn't it? | ||
| Lydia Supporter Username: Lydial Post Number: 2034 Registered: 5-2001 |
"Facts" Let's drop the " any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic" canard and focus on that, shall we? Ok - but didn't you start this thread on that very premise? You mis-spelled Semitism as a "goof"? Again, OK, but why? Makes no sense. I think you're angry and looking for a cause to "ism" and you could care less about the damage you leave in your wake. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15252 Registered: 10-2001  |
Were the thousands of people who protested outside of the RNC in 2004 (including many hundreds who hurled both inventives and loogies at the delegates) there for intelligent discourse? The ugliness is on both sides. For every right wing nutjob calling Bruce a communist, there is a left wing loonie calling Bush a Nazi. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 884 Registered: 4-2006 |
Nohero says: "Oh and the "Cindy Sheehan is anti-semitic stuff" is a little old now, isn't it"? Not at all Nohero. Cindy Sheehan continues to make herself a public figure and advocate, if you read today's news. People are being asked to follow her and associate with her views. Your comments are a nice deflection of the question. I take it this means that as long as Cindy Sheehan otherwise has the " right" views on Iraq, her other abhorrant views can be ignored? Would it make a difference if she had made similiar comments, for example about African-Americans? Hispanics? Catholics? Hmmm? | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5572 Registered: 10-1999 |
"Left wing loonies" who call Bush a Nazi usually don't appear on television news programs. Most opponents of the Administration don't view them as their spokespeople. The "outrageous lefties" get more exposure in right-wing circles, than they do among most people who disagree with the current Administration. Right wing nut jobs who still think that calling people "communists" is acceptable political discourse, do appear on television news programs. And, they are saluted as spokespeople by Administration supporters. For example, the "brain" behind the "Discover the Networks" website is David Horowitz, who is treated as a legitimate spokesperson for Administration supporters. So, there is no equivalence. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 885 Registered: 4-2006 |
Lydia- One can say that "any criticism of Israel is viewed as anti-semitism" is the classic response of the anti-semite to deflect claims of their anti-semitism. The existence of Israel makes things just so damn convenient for them today. Do you too believe that our american government made us go to war for Israel? sbenois- But one expects more from "progressives". I have stated my opinion of Pat Buchanan, a republican, and I have a problem with any republican that continues to encourage his participation and activity in their party. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5573 Registered: 10-1999 |
And to answer FvF - You've taken an old email that was attributed to Ms. Sheehan, and interpreted it. If you have a citation to an actual statement that this person carried on that "a dark cabal of Jews are running the country and getting us into wars", I'd be happy to look at it. You made the claim, so you need to back it up, chief. Until then, quite frankly, you got nuttin'. [Edited to add] And I see that you've decided to descend into the gutter, with this tired old phrase - That cheap stuff works on other message boards, I'm sure. This is a classier place. Please don't bring that nonsense around here, if you don't mind. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15253 Registered: 10-2001 |
When did appearing on the television news programs become the standard for measuring equivalence? | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 886 Registered: 4-2006 |
Nohero- Your comments are very revealing, and of course, completely non-responsive. Thank you for exposing yourself. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5575 Registered: 10-1999 |
S. - It is an example of whether these folks actually represent their respective "sides". The "Bush is a Nazi" folks are a fringe, but one cannot say the same about Administration supporters who casually toss off insults such as "communist" or "anti-semite". FvF - I responded to you in a very direct way. You may not have understood the response. And, trust me, you really don't want me to be exposing myself ...  | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 887 Registered: 4-2006 |
Nohero- The sum total of your comments = evasion. It leads me to conclude that you place a greater value on a shared political agenda with Ms. Sheehan than you do honesty by clarifying Ms. Sheehan's potential prejudices, especially as Ms. Sheehan seeks to be a political advocate of national importance and affect. And that is how I will approach reading your posts in the future. My sense is that there really isn't anything humorous to be found in the scapegoating of a people, either. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5576 Registered: 10-1999 |
"And that is how I will approach reading your posts in the future."And that just gets me all verklempt. Clearly, you are reading things into my posts, which aren't there. Your post at the start of this thread was a simplistic attempt to tar all opponents of the Administration with the brush of "antisemitism". You were specifically rebutted, but chose to ignore those posts. That's "evasion", by the way. Since we reject the label you're trying to impose, you fall back on your deliberate misinterpretations of what various posters have stated, in response to you. And, as noted above, you resorted to that cheap trick, to label someone as anti-semitic just for disagreeing with you. And that's about all that needs to be said on this subject. | ||
| ae35unit Citizen Username: Ae35unit Post Number: 138 Registered: 2-2006  |
Fiction- You're starting to sound like Zell Miller. | ||
| Spinal Tap Citizen Username: Spinaltap11 Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2006 |
I know left wing loonies don't appear on TV programs. They actually are seated in presidential boxes at the Democratic National Convention like Michael Moore or given prime time speaking slots like Al Sharpton. Instead of ripping Discover the Networks, why don’t you write exactly what in the section about Cindy Sheehan is incorrect? And as far as David Horowitz goes, he is a charter member of the far-left. He edited radical left publications and was closely associated with the Black Panthers in the 1960’s which is what caused his thinking to change. He not only talked the left’s talk (or posted as the case may be), he walked it, with people who would consider anyone able to afford Maplewood members of the bourgeoisie. I would say his experience as a member of the far-left puts him in a pretty unique position to comment on it. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 889 Registered: 4-2006 |
Nohero- Blah, blah, blah. The message is obviously more important than the messenger to you. So you continue to avoid addressing my post head on. Sheehan's words speak for themselves. Applying your form of reasoning, I would assume African-Americans can never find racism involved in criticism of Africa. Everyone is a high-minded and objective policy critic after all. Such a grasp of real life. Ae35unit- I have voted for Clinton, Gore, and McGreevey. If this was a message board in a red state area in NJ I would be taking those posters to task for Dick Cheney, the big oil representation in this government, the Saudis, and the republican position on stem cell research. While I don't have grey hair or a southern twang like Zell, I think he did a tremendous service to the dems by giving them a wakeup call and tutorial on what they need to do to regain the Presidency. But: What I find incredibly humourous is the degree to which our progressive extreme left in this country is the same as the religious right that they are always bashing and scared sh#%less of. They have the same, albeit secular, belief in their moral superiority, the sense that they are the only true fonts of knowledge and what is right, the belief that only they are the saved and the elect to lead the people. It's a damn hoot! In this case it seems okay, for the greater good and the holy leftist grail, if their most effective anti-war leader possibly could have personal prejudicies that go against their very high-toned morality and ethics,always ruthlessly applied to others. Can you possibly spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider  Post Number: 14879 Registered: 1-2003  |
"widely available on the web" doesn't mean it's true. It means it's widely appealing. There was a long list of stupid quotes by Dan Quayle. He had actually uttered all of them. This same list is now attributed to Al Gore. This old list, with the new attribution, is widely available on the web. Cindy Sheehan is a blowhard. She doesn't appear to be a threat to anyone, though, at least not yet. I think most people understand what a blowhard she is. Too bad, though, because at first, she seemed like a good person to carry the message that the Iraq war is wrong and being executed poorly. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 3070 Registered: 12-2001  |
Anti-semitism is an extremely serious and specific accusation to lay at anyone's door. I think anyone making it should give it a lot of thought. Otherside it's just a cheap shortcut. | ||
| ae35unit Citizen Username: Ae35unit Post Number: 139 Registered: 2-2006 |
Fiction- You read an awful lot into my comment. Maybe you should balance your intake of Little Green Footballs with some Jack Handy or something. You're not seeing gremlins yet are you? Oh yeah and this… "While I don't have grey hair or a southern twang like Zell, I think he did a tremendous service to the dems by giving them a wakeup call and tutorial on what they need to do to regain the Presidency." What are you on, man? Themp's right. | ||
| mjh Supporter Username: Mjh Post Number: 644 Registered: 5-2001 |
Nohero: Burnt FvF (he doesn't see it, but the rest of us do) | ||
| Robert Livingston Citizen Username: Rob_livingston Post Number: 1972 Registered: 7-2004  |
The only thing Zell Miller is a wake-up call for is dusting off plans for the South to secede. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 890 Registered: 4-2006 |
Excellent examples of group think and related log rolling and back slapping here abound.  . | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 891 Registered: 4-2006 |
themp- How about accusations of racism or sexism as well? Do "progressives" apply the same standards you wish to apply to others? Or are they exempt as they are so obviously right about everything? a3- I happen to read Kos. I don't subscribe hook, line,and sinker to anyone's political religion however. You might want to note that the "progressive" view is very much a minority one in this country. Guess Americans are just too dumb to get it? Robert Livingston- In order to elect a President the dems may need the south. That's why John Kerry went out "hunting" the last time.  . | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14893 Registered: 1-2003 |
No, it's not OK to be anti-semitic, but she's not a progressive, and it isn't clearly anti-semitic. Look, if you want to be upset, go ahead. It's just that not many people fear Sheehan. Her message about the Iraq war is a good message, but she's a bad messenger. Maybe your difficulty is that she and her various messages don't fit neatly into "entirely good" and "entirely bad" categories? | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3506 Registered: 5-2004  |
FvF, are there other quotes from Sheehan that would indiated she is anti-Semitic? Or was that the only one? | ||
| ae35unit Citizen Username: Ae35unit Post Number: 140 Registered: 2-2006 |
 It's OK Fiction, now move away from the knife drawer....... | ||
| ae35unit Citizen Username: Ae35unit Post Number: 141 Registered: 2-2006 |
Fiction says: "You might want to note that the "progressive" view is very much a minority one in this country." I'm not exactly sure what "progressive" means, but more than two thirds of the country disapprove of W's job performance, and most people now think invading and occupying Iraq was a mistake. Once again you're just wrong. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3508 Registered: 5-2004 |
As much as I might disagree with FvF on... well, just about everything, if these same words were uttered by someone who supported the President, you can be sure people now defending Sheehan would be all over the speaker like white on rice. On the other hand, those on the Right currently vilifying Sheehan would be doing everything they could to defend the statements as "excited utterances" of an emotional person. I am not saying that Sheehan is an Anti-Semite, or that she really blames Jews for our little Iraq problem. But reactions to these kinds of comments are definitely based on who said them and who is listening. http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?tpc=26018&post=631593#POST631 593 | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 892 Registered: 4-2006 |
Tom Reingold- I think people here should just say that they strongly support her views on the Iraq war and that they would condemn her statement and remonstrate with her about her views on Israel. That would be a good honest response. Funny how they don't. Blind support geared to a political agenda and evasion of an honest issue is a very dangerous thing IMHO. Rastro- I will look but don't believe so in terms of other clear, direct, statements. To her handlers and advisers' credit, damage control may have gone into effect. Now I know people may want to claim Sheehan " misspoke" herself from grief or otherwise, but the statements were unsolicited, and made at a time she had not peaked as the national political activist she has become. One can then find them more representative of her actual thought process and beliefs than not. You also have to consider the groups that she chooses to associate with as well and their positions on Israel and Palestinian terrorism. |
