| Author |
Message |
    
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7534
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:18 am: | 
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Hoops writes:
"I have no solution for this mess. But I do know that the policy that Israel is pursuing in its desire to defend itself is self-defeating. Hypothetically, lets say there is a gang of Bloods in Newark, say Vailsburg, that comes into South Orange and kidnaps a girl playing on Floods Hill, kills a cop and blows ups the Baird center. Very serious situation. Would it be ok for the South Orange police to blow up some area near where this gang may live? No matter whether woman and children are killed in the blind search for retalliation? Killing some of the gang members and some of their innocent neighbors?
See, that is how I see the Israeli response to these horrible crimes. They are lashing out with tremendous force without care that innocent lives are lost. Something like - "Kill one of ours then 10 of yours will die".
Idiotic comparison. |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 686
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:21 am: |
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Don't insult idiots.
jd |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 982
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:22 am: |
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Who insulted Strawberry? |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1647
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:26 am: |
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Straw - I dont think my statements make for a thread in and of itself. You could have just as easily wrote 'Idiotic comparison' in the thread where this existed.
Yet, as in all of your postings you fail to give any rationale for your statement. It is in my opinion because you have none. You work on a very low level of intellectual energy and have quite typically nothing to offer except simple one liners that are truly idiotic.
Should you really wish to discuss the idiocy of that post, please elaborate, otherwise your post is simply childish. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1648
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:33 am: |
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jd - are you now attacking me personally?
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Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7535
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:35 am: |
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Hoops,
I'm disappointed with you. To compare Israel's situation to a local gang war. Not very bright, sonny boy. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1649
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:41 am: |
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I could care less about your 'disappointment', 'sonny boy'. Either show me where the analogy is inaccurate (and there are plenty of places you could have done that as Larry Seltzer did) or ignore it if you cant.
In terms of what is bright and what isnt, I dont think you are qualified to make those types of judgements. |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7536
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 11:06 am: |
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The analogy is offensive. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1650
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 11:45 am: |
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The analogy is a tool to get a response to the question of whether it is ok to kill innocent people as a retaliation for something others have done.
Do you have an answer to that question?
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Twokitties
Citizen
Username: Twokitties
Post Number: 457
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 11:49 am: |
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I hate to correct you Hoops, but I think Straw is the tool ... |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7538
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 11:54 am: |
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Ignoring the fool above, yes I do have an answer to that question.
To quote Larry S.:
"It's hard for me to find the words to describe how inept your analogy is. There are multiple effective law enforcement agencies that could be called in to address the ridiculous situation you propose. And the Bloods are not an official party in Newark government and officially allowed to operate."
Why don't you just apologize for the remark and take a breather from MOL so you can better address your obvious shortcomings when it comes to discussing the Middle East.
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1651
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 12:01 pm: |
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I see you have no answer to the question.
Is it ok to kill innocent people in retaliation for something someone else has done?
I have nothing to apologize for. I expressed a valid opinion and concern. As far as shortcoming go, you are the expert. However I am finished with discussing this on this thread.
- Two Kitties  |
Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1783
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 12:05 pm: |
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Ignoring the fool above, yes I do have an answer to that question.
Calling someone a fool constitutes a personal attack! |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3561
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:50 pm: |
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The day anyone here should care about what Straw is offended by is the day that he posts an apology for each offensive post he has put up since October '01.
By the way, isn't there a ban on threads containing the name of a poster other than yourself? |
mjh
Supporter
Username: Mjh
Post Number: 676
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 3:35 pm: |
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To be called "offensive" by Straw is like:
Being called smelly by a skunk?
Being called dirty by mud?
Being called a loud-mouth by Anne Coulter?
I'm sure others can come up with more "offensive" analogies. |
Gregor Samsa
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 554
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 3:42 pm: |
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Unless you're SLK, you won't get suspended for petty name calling...Such is the capricious nature of the rulers of these forums. |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 690
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 3:52 pm: |
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Hoops:
No personal attack.
Just a note that we shouldn't attack idiots.
They can't help it.
When Newark is a sovereign state, with a seat in the U.N., then we can first talk about your straw-man analogy.
jd |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 974
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 5:51 pm: |
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For Hoops to have a point his "analogy" has to have some reasonable relationship to reality, and apply some rational, cogent thought.
It doesn't.
So you guys are just diss'n Strawberry because you don't like his politics.
Hoops:
The good news is: We kind of expect it from you anyway.
The bad news is: Corey Booker is not going to hire you as his expert on gang violence.
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Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 975
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 5:55 pm: |
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Hoops tutorial:
Terrorists choose to locate in heavily populated civilian areas to:
1) Avoid reprisals for their actions. And:
2) To utilize any civilian deaths as a result for their cause.
Even Homer Simpson says : "Duh". |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2850
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:27 pm: |
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Hoops, you ask:
Is it ok to kill innocent people in retaliation for something someone else has done?
Obviously the answer is no, but that is exactly what happens in war. What is your position on the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? How about Dresden? |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3567
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:48 pm: |
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No, FvF, we're dissing Straw because he's chosen to be a complete [insert epithet here] for almost five years. Don't you think that's a decent reason? |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1269
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 10:58 pm: |
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I love all the non self control on MOL lately. How many times must most of you talk about Straw negatively, yet you continue to bite. This type of behavior is just plain fun. And Hoops plays the role beautifully as does notey. I like you notey, but you have put more wood on Straw's fire than anyone. You are at least interesting to read where as Hoops is just pure fun. And I love how Hoops feels the need to tell us when he is leaving a thread. As if we are disappointed. Reminds me of someone not to long ago who made the same declaration and then within two hours was back. I love the lack of self control here. This is what makes the internet so fun. |
Mustt_mustt
Citizen
Username: Mustt_mustt
Post Number: 604
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 12:31 am: |
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You are so full of love, Southerner. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3668
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 5:35 am: |
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Reasons given that killing innocent people is justified:
1) jd: The entity in which the "first attack" took place is a sovereign nation.
2) anon: We are at war.
Just because immoral acts have been committed by the human race since it began, doesn't mean we can't invent a new trait in "civilization" that is, going back to Hammurabi. He said "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" which you may think meant, "You take mine, and I'll take yours," eg, revenge. Archaeologists have learned that it didn't mean that. It meant, I punish you IN PROPORTION to your attack on me.
In other words, I don't take five hundred eyes for your one.
Then, a (Jewish) man named Jesus invented the thought of forgiveness, but that has gone the way of the horse and buggy.
By this calculation, the level of social conscience of western civilization has now devolved to about the year 2000 BC.
Hoops, courage.
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Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 993
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 7:31 am: |
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tulip-
Have you hugged a terrorist today? |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3669
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:50 am: |
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Facts:
Your comments on this message board remind me of one of these little tributary rivers I see almost every day, running into the Delaware that flooded again. Their banks get wider, each side separating farther and farther from each other as the slough and runoff wears them down. They have no holding power, they just wash into the river. They just have more and more space for the muddy water to flow down. They are small, but become enormously destructive as they wear down.
You cannot see the truth, which is why your name is so apt. You just see sides. You see your side, and the other side, and the distance just gets wider and wider with time. You have no overview, perspective or comprehension of the big picture.
If someone says war is wrong, you see a terrorist-hugger.
You are the direct descendant of the right wing groups that accused whites who would not exclude African Americans as weak and wrong.
The Holocaust that you claim sole dominion over is significant in our history and our memory. It does not mean we have to let it rule our lives.
Israel is currently deeply involved in a massive overkill.
Even Bush sees it as radical.
Enough.
Study the situation.
Terror...is...terror.
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joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 694
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:52 am: |
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Ahhh, your new friend Bush.
Read this, please.
And please, also, thank the IDF for its restraint.
Fight for Mideast democracy faltering
by Michael Rubin
Philadelphia Inquirer
July 14, 2006
"It is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world," President Bush declared at his second inauguration.
Government-controlled newspapers in the Arab world scoffed at the idea of democracy. Egypt's al-Ahram daily called it "worrying." The United Arab Emirates' al-Bayan wrote that "the slogan of fighting tyranny is just a pompous expression." Many Bush critics in the United States agreed.
Still, democracy took root in what many once dismissed as infertile ground. Lebanon's Cedar Revolution drove out Syrian military occupation. Just a year ago, Lebanon's future looked bright. U.S. diplomatic pressure forced Egyptian leader Hosni Mubarak to hold his first contested presidential election. That democracy came to Iraq through war may be unpopular, but it does not cancel the fact that Iraqis went to the polls three times, twice to pick a leader and once to ratify a constitution.
Dissent grew bold. Libyan democracy activist Fathi El-Jahmi publicly challenged Libyan strongman Moammar Gadhafi to hold elections. Rola Dashti campaigned tirelessly for women's suffrage in Kuwait. Jordanian columnist Salameh Nematt took the call for democracy a step further when, on Nov. 25, 2004, he called on all Arab states to embrace democracy. "It is outrageous and amazing that the first free and general elections in the history of the Arab nation are to take place... in Iraq, under the auspices of American occupation, and in Palestine, under the auspices of the Israeli occupation," he wrote in the pan-Arab daily al-Hayat.
Dissent in the Middle East was no cakewalk. Gadhafi threw El-Jahmi in prison. Both Dashti and Nematt received death threats. An Egyptian court sentenced activist Saad Eddin Ibrahim for his writings about human rights and democracy. But even as they challenged entrenched leaders, dissidents could count on Washington as an ally. Bush defied diplomatic convention and withheld $130 million in aid until Egypt released Ibrahim. Senators lobbied for El-Jahmi's release. The State Department chastised Iran's treatment of its imprisoned civil society activists, and condemned the murder of Lebanese journalists.
No longer. Where just last year, the White House condemned the murder of Lebanese writers, it now remains silent as Libyan security agents kidnap and kill journalists. Hezbollah might not have sparked the latest violence had Washington kept up pressure for its disarmament. El-Jahmi is back in prison. At the Palestinian Authority's request, the State Department banned liberal Palestinian activist Issam Abu Issa from the United States after he blew the whistle on corruption.
Not only adversaries get a free pass. In the face of Bush's reversal, U.S. allies who once considered reform now abandon it. Take Mubarak: In recent months, his regime has imprisoned the opposition candidate, an arson attack has destroyed the opposition headquarters, Mubarak has canceled municipal elections, and his security forces have arrested judges who dared to complain. Last week, Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh - who wields absolute power - reversed his decision to step down and now says he will run again. Tunisian President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali - who won his last election with more than 94 percent of the vote - has waged a wholesale assault on independent civil society. In the midst of a crackdown on journalists and bloggers, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld visited Tunis to meet Ben Ali. Many Tunisians compare the photo of the meeting to Rumsfeld's 1983 handshake with Saddam Hussein. Iraqi Kurdish leader Masud Barzani now casts democracy aside as he builds a personality cult and transforms Iraqi Kurdistan into his own personal fiefdom. Even in democratic Turkey, the White House remains silent as Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan refuses to implement supreme court rulings that say he has overstepped his power.
That Bush betrays his rhetoric is tragic. While he once spoke of freedom, he now courts those who oppose it. Fighting terror and supporting reform need not be mutually exclusive. Last year Bush promised, "America will stand with the people that desire a free and democratic Iraq." Now his administration talks of withdrawal, leaving those who put their lives on the line for democracy to wither. Just as his father once called on Iraqis to stand up and fight dictatorship only to abandon them to Saddam's gunships, so too does George W. Bush now abandon Arab freedom-seekers, only on a much larger scale and with far more dire consequences for both Middle Eastern democracy and U.S. credibility. |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 695
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:54 am: |
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Over 620 mortar and rocket shells fell on Israel yesterday.
Restraint, indeed.
jd
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3670
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:57 am: |
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If you blokes say you are so in favor of democracy, what about the elections in Israel, when they rejected the right wing warmongers in Netanyahu's camp? Are they listening to their own people?
Democracy to you, means your side of the bank.
Right now, Israel is out of control, embarrassing you.
Yes, Hezbollah and Hamas are capable of terror.
That doesn't mean you go after every Sunni and every Shi'a in the Middle East.
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Wendy
Supporter
Username: Wendy
Post Number: 2729
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 11:14 am: |
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Quote:Right now, Israel is out of control, embarrassing you.
Yes, Hezbollah and Hamas are capable of terror.
That doesn't mean you go after every Sunni and every Shi'a in the Middle East.
[emphasis supplied]
Tulip, stick to global warming. At least there you use facts to support your beliefs about it. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3673
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 11:23 am: |
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Wendy, Tune into the Security Council to see where I stand. Your feverish support for everything Israel does blinds you and forces you into a corner. It looks and sounds like Zionism. Is it?
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Wendy
Supporter
Username: Wendy
Post Number: 2730
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 11:52 am: |
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And I'm sure you agreed with the "Zionism = Racism" pronouncement as well. If that's the case, I would beg to differ about who is blind. |
MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 200
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 12:53 pm: |
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I think the analogy is flawed because the township, um village, of South Orange is not properly analogous to Israel. South Orange is subject to the laws and protections of Essex County, the state of New Jersey and the federal government. It neither has the right nor the need to retaliate as a body unto itself. Israel, on the other hand is a sovereign nation that like the United States or any other recognized sovereign nation is subject only to the laws and rather unbinding guidlines of a handful of international organizations with neither the power nor the clout to handle such conflicts with any immediacy or effectiveness. Israel has only Israel to defend itself. South Orange has Essex County, the state of New Jersey and of course the federal governemnt to do that.
Whether Israel is in the right or not is another question that I don't know enough to answer. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 999
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 1:36 pm: |
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tulip-
I am sure you and Hoops are the type of people who would make decent neighbors but would be a true disaster running the foreign policy of this country or being in charge of it's security. Here's why:
Progressives like yourselves think the key to resolving every world or other conflict is mutual tolerance. And yes that sounds good on it's face.
But you lovely people fail to understand the nature of our enemy, radical islam.
Unlike you westernized secularists who are willing to tolerate the fact that this violent group of people wants to live by, and are functioning with, 12th century ideas (which raises some other issues about your humanitarianism considering their ideas involve the repression of non-muslims and women),they however, are taught by their religious beliefs not to tolerate you.
www.jihadwatch.org
Concepts like gay marriage, a woman's right to choose, and even representative democracy are considered sick, perverted pollutants of their societies, and gives them a religiously acceptable right to make you room temperature, like they happily did with 3,000 of your fellow Americans on 9-11.
There is no mutual tolerance with this bunch, dear. So fuzzy-headed " make nice " with other cultures progressive thinking does not apply.
There is a global war going on out there my dear tulip. Wake Up.
More importantly, wise up.
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1667
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 1:45 pm: |
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fiction - I am glad you think so much of me. Please lend me a few peso's and I might be able to afford to live next door to you in MSH.
Instead of talking about the war with Islam that you say is going on, why dont we talk instead about why there is a such thing as radical Islam. Perhaps if you get to point about why its there you might be able to come up with a how to eradicate it short of genocide.
Religion is bound to destroy the world until people wake up to the fact that the Bible, Koran, Torah and all other holy books were written by men not god. There is no literal word and there is nothing on earth that should be decided based on faith in an afterlife.
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MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 202
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 2:29 pm: |
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Religion doesn't destroy people. People destroy people.
(Sorry, I couldn't help myself!)  |
Foj
Citizen
Username: Foger
Post Number: 1659
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 6:21 pm: |
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Touche~ |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1018
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 9:32 pm: |
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MicaelaM-
People destroy people based on religious motivation.
Foj-
Can you get your buddy Cindy to speak to this? Leaving Israel out of it for a change? |
Michaela
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 210
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:44 pm: |
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Based on religious *extremism*.
I think extremism, though, can be nurtured by poverty and desparation. Would you be motivated to die for something if you're life and those of the people you love were comfortable?
Also, let's not forget greed. It's why this part of the world was first colonized, why its inhabitants were killed. Should we get rid of money too? |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 1162
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:42 pm: |
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Hoops I am with you all the way.
Southerner as usual your arrogance surpasses your intellect
Michaela: Religion is invented by man and has been used as a tool to further man's ambitions since the day it began. Extremism is not a poverty issue. Check on Bin Ladens background and so many others who start and foster these movements like the Saudi Royalty, Iran's upper class, Saddam Hussein and yes the fundamentalist Jewish movement. However the people they use to further their missions are usually poor but mostly uneducated and therefor easily led. Fundamentalist Islam does not allow broad knowledge but only feeds the messages that will further the cause. Under Hitler it was called Propaganda but it's pretty much the same.
Why do you think all the suicide bombers are young people? They are jaded by years of poverty, war and the only education they receive is brainwashing.
Grown men and women are not so easily led to suicide and slaughter. Also a reason why most gang members are very young adults. Death is easier glorified to a young person.
I am with Hoops because it doesn't matter if it is a sovereign nation or the neighborhood next door. When will you leave politics out of stoping war. War is not caused by politics, war is caused by blinding hate, arrogance, sense of superiority but mostly greed. Religion is just a tool invented to accomplish the goal. |
sbenois
Supporter
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15365
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:45 pm: |
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Quote:why dont we talk instead about why there is a such thing as radical Islam
Ok. Why? |
Michaela
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 216
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:52 pm: |
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If extremism is not a poverty issue -- and I think it's not just poverty -- then why point out that suicide bombers are young people "jaded by years of poverty, war and the only education they receive is brainwashing"?
The people on the top, lie bin Ladin, might be rich. But without people to follow them, people who have little to lose, we wouldn't even know their names.
(Sorry to revive a thread that was on its death bed!) |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 1164
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:59 pm: |
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Suicide bomber are not the cause of extremism they are just one of the many victims.
Osama has been known way before the wave of Terror he initiated, and was once our accomplice to fight the Russians. Ask the Saudi Royals why they threw him out of the country years ago. They knew he was dangerous and mental.
There is a reason why he thinks Hitler was great. Two crazed minds think alike and both used religion to manipulate the poor masses. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1080
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 7:29 am: |
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We have radical islam at this point in time due to the failure of muslim nations to match or compete with 21st century western development and achievements. Given the population explosion in these countries, lack of jobs for the predominantly young population of most of these countries, and autocratic government of elites in these nations, arabs believe the solution is the return to islam, and the creation of a worldwide islamic caliphate.
To create the caliphate requires removing the infidels and "crusaders" from muslim land, and the submission of the west to islam. Muslim land are referred to as "the house of peace", non-muslim lands as " the house of war" in arabic.
Sort of a re-creation of the islamic " glory days".
So it's not about Israeli "occupation" or injustices as some would probably want to argue. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1697
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 8:46 am: |
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not bad fiction.
So if your simple answer were perhaps the bulk of where the problem lies, then perhaps our strategy is incorrect. Maybe we should be helping these muslim nations to prosper, instead of trying to exploit them for cheap goods and oil, maybe we should be a proponent for human rights, freedom of thought and education. Maybe we should not support governments that keep their people poor and ignorant like the Saudis do.
Evetually we would marginalize the extremist elements much like the extremist elements in our own country are marginalized.
It is immensely more complicated of course but that simple statement is a start towards a humanitarian solution to this problem that has nothing to do with the indiscriminate bombing of innocent life. |
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