| Author | Message | ||
     sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15282 Registered: 10-2001  |
The stuff has hit the fan with Hezbollah in Lebanon and there is a deafening slience on MOL about a situation that can spiral completely out of control. What I can't understand is how the kidnapping of two IDF soldiers and the killing of three others, without any provocation, can go unnoticed here. Where is the outrage? Mustt_Mustt? Hoops? Or should we just wait to criticize Israel when they retaliate? http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/12/mideast/index.html | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 597 Registered: 8-2003 |
Sbenois, I agree. The sh-t has really hit the fan. That's exactly what I predicted. Thanks Sbenois! It seems like we should stop dealing with words like "kidnapping," and instead deal with more familiar terms like "war." Don't you agree? | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 961 Registered: 4-2006 |
sbenois- They will also cite their deep "humanitarian" concerns about the effect of Israeli self-defense on the poor Palestinian and Lebanese people as well. Never mind Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government, and the Palestinian Foreign Ministry was bombed at 1:30 a.m. to avoid civilian casualties. Israel also allowed a hundred or so trucks with humanitarian supplies into Gaza to benefit the very same people who want to kill them. I am hoping that the posters you cite will follow the natural progression of their world views and either volunteer themselves as human shields for Iranian nuclear sites or volunteer to take the place of a " wrongfully charged " prisoner at Gitmo.  | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15283 Registered: 10-2001 |
These are minor details. In today's events, when Israeli soldiers are ambushed, killed or captured, there isn't a mention of it. Now, it's war, you see. And all is fair in war until Israel goes into Lebanon and fires away. Then there will be lots of disgust over the "needlessly disproportionate" response. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 963 Registered: 4-2006 |
sbenois- Don't you know that ANY criticism of Israeli policies and actions IS NEVER anti-semitism?  | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 1250 Registered: 2-2004 |
Seb, I hear you and agree. However, how many times must I hear on MOL that something is "spiraling out of control". I agree it's a bad situation, but there have been countless bad situations in the past few years. At least in this one a bus or restaurant wasn't blown up! I'm watching the situation and hope like heck that Israel stands firm and does what they feel is appropriate without concern for U.S. liberals. This episode will show how impotent the Arab saber actually is. | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2842 Registered: 6-2002 |
So are people going to use this thread to attack each other or to intelligently discuss the situation? I will ask the followiing: Why is War breaking out when it would seem that the conditions for Peace are better than ever? Sharon broke with the hard-line Likud and his new Kadima Party won the election. Israel pulled out of Gaza. The President of the PA keeps pushing for negotiation with Israel. Is it that the extremists in the Palestinian camp do not want peace and will torpedo any possibility for it when it appears that peace might actually break out? | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1905 Registered: 12-2003  |
"In today's events, when Israeli soldiers are ambushed, killed or captured, there isn't a mention of it." You obviously haven't read a newspaper or watched a television in the past two weeks. It has dominated the news. Much like the way people tend to blindly align themselves with one political party or another, so has the debate over Israel gone. Israelies and Palestinians are either saints or tyrants, with no gray area in between. It's interesting that such a complicated political and social situation -- I can't think of one any more complicated, anywhere in the world -- is so easily reduced to Us vs. Them. The only meaningful byproduct of these recent events will be more death. But that will be lost on most, who will instead be eager to update the Scoreboard of Righteousness to justify their loyalty to one side or the other. Somehow, nobody seems to be rooting much for humanity, which is clearly losing in this game. | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 77 Registered: 4-2006  |
>>Is it that the extremists in the Palestinian camp do not want peace and will torpedo any possibility for it when it appears that peace might actually break out? Well yeah, and duh. And those extremists just won a majority of seats in the PNC, so they're the government of the Palestinian Authority. Don't be under any illusions about these people. Hamas is as nutty a bunch of extremists as there is. I suggest everyone read the Hamas Charter and note some of the highlights:
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| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 965 Registered: 4-2006 |
anon- To "intelligently" discuss the situation, as you request: Nasrallah, head of the Hezbollah does not want to lay down that organization's arms (including a 1,000 or so missles pointed at Israel proper) and become a regular Lebanese political party. Hezbollah has lost political power and prestige since Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000. The Lebanese government has never disarmed Hezbollah, in accordance with international resolutions. By kidnapping Israeli soldiers, also at the bequest of Hezbollah's patrons, Syria and Iran, Nasrallah and Hezbollah again become popular to the arab "street" and need not disarm, as he must protect himself from the Israelis. Nasrallah has apparently calculated that any incursion by Israel would be brief and that he could exchange the 2 soldiers ( by the way members of the druze community in Israel, not jewish soldiers) for hundreds or perhaps a thousand arab prisoners. Looks like he miscalculated as the Israeli cabinet has, just approved a short time ago, a massive bombing campaign in Lebanon to attack Hezbollah bases and missles to restore Israel's deterrent power and prevent more soldiers or civilians from being kidnapped. The Palestinian President that you refer to, Abbas, was as "peaceloving" as Arafat was before him ( i.e. slim to nil), he is only talking up negotiations as a means of preserving his power as Hamas has displaced his Fatah party in controlling the Palestinian Authority. It keeps him relevant and important to the Americans. Given that Hamas is and has been a terrorist organization, its election by the Palestinians gives you a good indication of what they are about as a society and where they are going in terms of peace. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 966 Registered: 4-2006 |
cmonty- Do I detect the noxious odor of moral equivalency in your post? Sniff... | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 598 Registered: 8-2003 |
"Given that Hamas is and has been a terrorist organization, its election by the Palestinians gives you a good indication of what they are about as a society and where they are going in terms of peace." That Palestinians are terrorists and they don't want to live in peace. Wow! Some analysis that! For a lot of folks, it's the Shas that's wacko, so does that mean all Israelis are wacko? | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15284 Registered: 10-2001 |
Yeah, I must say that after reading that other thread I've come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as anti-semitism. It's all about totally legitimate gripes against the Israeli government's policies. And it's not important, in terms of balance, to point out that Israeli citizens are being blown up or that soldiers are being ambushed and killed. Or kidnapped. The only thing that seems to matter is to prepare a stellar set of criticisms of Israel that are delivered after she retaliates. Tomorrow evening, the very progressive United for Peace and Justice team- the organization that took out the permit for the massive protest outside of the RNC in 2004 - is holding an emergency briefing to prepare their members with lots of quotes on how to approach the latest crisis.
Not much in the agenda about soldiers being taken or murdered. Nothing in there about years of suicide bombers striking randomly, sometimes during Bar-Mitzvahs. Nothing about the right of everyday Israeli citizens to live in peace. Not a shred of sympathy for any Israeli citizen or soldier. I wonder why. | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 599 Registered: 8-2003 |
Not a shred a sympathy for the commom Palestinian "citizen." I wonder why! | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15285 Registered: 10-2001 |
You might want to read that again. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5604 Registered: 10-1999  |
See, this is why these discussions don't go well on MOL. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15286 Registered: 10-2001 |
Why? Have I done something wrong? | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 969 Registered: 4-2006 |
Nohero- But they always go well on MOL of course when everybody agrees Bush is a moron and we should withdraw from Iraq, like, yesterday. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 970 Registered: 4-2006 |
Mustt_Mustt: Upon news of the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier and the killing of 2 others Palestinians celebrated at demonstrations and handed out candies. Now THAT is peaceloving ! Um...I think it is Hamas that doesn't have a shred of sympathy for the average Palestinian citizen. Why not take all that foreign aid money and put it into jobs and a functioning economy rather than spending it on war and qassams? | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5607 Registered: 10-1999 |
See, I can agree with FvF, that the Hamas leadership probably doesn't care about the average Palestinian citizen. Unfortunately, of the two groups (Hamas leadership vs. average Palestinians), one is getting pretty beat up, because of the other. | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2542 Registered: 3-2003 |
Khaled Meshaal, Hamas's leader in Damascus, has evidently coordinated actions in Gaza with Hizballah in Lebanon. He has stated publicly, and he is correct, that the attack on Israeli troops and capture of Corporal Gilad Shalit was not an act of terror but an act of war. Israel has made it clear that it regards Hizballah's subsequent attack as an act of war as well. But while Hamas declares war, the opinion makers who believe Israel's moral duty is to behave like an NGO and not a country simply pretend not to notice. Instead, the big story in the selectively left-leaning British paper I read, the Financial Times, is Israel's military response and how Palestinian leaders deny it will achieve Israeli aims. (Like they would say something different?) Meanwhile, in the weeks leading up to all this, I have read story after story, editorial upon editorial, mentioning Hamas's imminent (any day now, if only Israel doesn't blow it, if only Israel will make believe) concession to Abbas in which the organization which exists soley to insure Israel's destruction "implicitly" recognizes Israel's right to exist. The bullshi+ is just freaking insuperable. I am watching respectable news outlets become shameless propagandists for a terminally radical organization that cannot even pretend to lead its people toward statehood, let alone peaceful statehood. Factvsfiction was correct to note that Hizballah's pile-on in the north is about shoring up sagging Lebanese support for the erstwhile defender of Lebanon against Israel. Because increased pressure has been mounted by Lebanese intellectuals against Syria in the last few weeks over Syria's refusal to recognize Lebanon's sovereignty and relinquish control of its government. What better way to distract Lebanese from their disenchantment with being Syria's cash-cow vassal than to solicit an Israeli retaliation? Add to that this latest analysis from the Middle East Media Research Institute, and one can maybe see why some of us think the plight of Palestinians in Gaza is small potatoes compared to what may be in the offing: <indent>In statements published over the last few weeks, senior Iranian officials advocated an escalation of the violent activity against Israel and against "Zionists" around the world. Additionally, in mid-June 2006, Syria and Iran signed a military cooperation agreement. The Syrian defense minister stated on that occasion that the two countries "are establishing a joint front against Israel... [since] Iran regards Syria's security as its own." For the last few weeks, Iran has been constantly delaying its response to the ultimatum presented to it by 5+1 (the five permanent U.N. Security Council members plus Germany) regarding its nuclear program, since it has no intention of accepting the international community's terms and of suspending its uranium enrichment activities. Iran was required to respond to the ultimatum by July 12 (before the G8 summit in Saint Petersburg). So far, the international community has not yielded to Iran's attempts to evade the ultimatum, and has denied Iran's request to postpone the deadline to August 22, 2006. Iranian National Security Council Secretary Ali Larijani, who is in charge of Iran's nuclear dossier, made a surprise visit to Damascus after meeting with E.U. Council Secretary-General Javier Solana on July 11, 2006. Syrian Vice President Farouq Al-Shar' stated after the meeting that the resistance [movements] in Lebanon and in Palestine [i.e. Hizbullah and Hamas] would make their own decisions regarding their affairs. It is possible that the escalation on Israel's borders, set off by elements supported by Iran - Hamas, Hizbullah and Syria - is meant to take the pressure off Iran by triggering a major military clash in the Middle East, which will divert international attention from Iran's nuclear program.</indent> | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2543 Registered: 3-2003 |
Unfortunately, one thing Nasrallah is known for is his honesty: On the morning of July 12, concurrently with the Hizbullah attack on Israel's northern border, the conservative Iranian daily Jomhouri-ye Eslami, which is affiliated with the religious seminaries of Qom, published a speech given by Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nassrallah on May 23, 2006 at a conference on "The Culture of Resistance." The following are excerpts from the speech: "We can hit Israel's entire northern region with thousands of rockets... All of Israel is now within the range of our missiles. Its seaports, [military] bases, industrial plants and everything else are all within our range... I repeat and say that our stockpile of weapons is significant, both in quantity and in quality... Another advantage that I wish to mention is the geography of Lebanon and Palestine. Most of Israel's vital areas are concentrated in the northern [half] of occupied Palestine, while the south is uninhabited and desolate. More than two million Jews live in the north of occupied Palestine, which contains the recreation centers and [tourist] resorts, the industrial plants, the agricultural [areas] and the important military airports and bases. This is an advantage for us... Our presence in South Lebanon, in proximity to the north of occupied Palestine, is our greatest advantage..."(4)} | ||
| Spinal Tap Citizen Username: Spinaltap11 Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2006  |
The Left’s problem with Israel is that in their view, Israel has lost the number one criteria for being a member of the Left’s constituency. Victim status. Now the poor, oppressed, medieval savages, who want to exterminate the Jews, are the victims. Liberal, democratic, egalitarian, Western, Israel, with their free press and transparent government, is the oppressor. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12125 Registered: 5-2001 |
This gets very scary. A few points: 1. Their is obviously coordinated efforts between Hamas and Hezzbolah. It is common knowledge that Hezzbolah trains Hamas fighters, but coordinated attacks are, I think, new. 2. Obviously the new tactic is to take Israeli soliders as "POWs", or "hostages" if you prefer. This appears to be working. The Israelis are going balistic. 3. With Syria and Iran in bed with Hezzbolah Southern Lebanon is a wonderful place to shoot off artillery and missles. While I have my doubts that Hezbollah is as well equipted as Nassrallah claims, control of this area gives the Iranians a great place to nuc Israel from once they develop their bomb while claiming they didn't have anything to do with it. 4. What happened to the Lebanese efforts to oust Syria, their troops and influence from their country that seemed so promising a few short months ago? 5, Will Israel stay in Lebanon? I wouldn't blame them, but there is a high price in men and materials to do this, as they found out in the 1980s. | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 600 Registered: 8-2003 |
A friend of mine attends the Lebanese American University told me that the situation in Beirut is very tense and that the Lebanese are upset with the new developments. I guess the last thing they need is the return of the Syrians and the dismantling of their elected government. | ||
| Spinal Tap Citizen Username: Spinaltap11 Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2006 |
Russia and France condemn Israel's offensive. Imagine that. http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-07-13 T123149Z_01_L13833873_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-REACTION.xml&src=rss&rpc=22 | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1643 Registered: 10-2004  |
s - thanks for asking for my input. It appears that as predicted violence is escalating. It is a horrible crime that the Israeli soldiers were attacked, killed and kidnapped. It would be a great thing if the killers, kidnappers and those responsible for planning it could be caught and brought to justice. Hamas, Hezbollah are criminal enterprises and as such should be hunted down and captured or killed. I have no solution for this mess. But I do know that the policy that Israel is pursuing in its desire to defend itself is self-defeating. Hypothetically, lets say there is a gang of Bloods in Newark, say Vailsburg, that comes into South Orange and kidnaps a girl playing on Floods Hill, kills a cop and blows ups the Baird center. Very serious situation. Would it be ok for the South Orange police to blow up some area near where this gang may live? No matter whether woman and children are killed in the blind search for retalliation? Killing some of the gang members and some of their innocent neighbors? See, that is how I see the Israeli response to these horrible crimes. They are lashing out with tremendous force without care that innocent lives are lost. Something like - "Kill one of ours then 10 of yours will die". I am not living in Israel and I can not begin to understand the stress and frustration that Israelis live under every day, but I know that this policy is not going to resolve the problems. There has to be a better way, a humane way to respond. As far as the deafening silence goes, maybe people are loath to try to discuss these issues because the discussion becomes personal without really discussing the issues. | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 78 Registered: 4-2006 |
Hoops: It's hard for me to find the words to describe how inept your analogy is. There are multiple effective law enforcement agencies that could be called in to address the ridiculous situation you propose. And the Bloods are not an official party in Newark government and officially allowed to operate. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider  Post Number: 14971 Registered: 1-2003  |
I wish we had closed the thread after cmontyburns weighed in. For me, it's the last word. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1645 Registered: 10-2004 |
Maybe the analogy is not exact, it might be hard to find one that fits into the middle east exactly but it seems that you too are ignoring the moral issue I brought to the table. Is it ok to kill innocent people in retalliation for something done by others? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14972 Registered: 1-2003 |
Hoops, in general no, unless your retaliation has the effect of stemming the violence. And it is hard to tell when it will and when it won't. That is where wisdom should weigh in. | ||
| las Citizen Username: Las Post Number: 2052 Registered: 10-2003 |
Forgive my ignorance all you Political Soapboxers, but I've got three pretty dumb questions: Is Israel "at war" on two fronts? Is there a serious danger in the region (as opposed to the typical dangers)? What happens next? | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1646 Registered: 10-2004 |
Tom - I dont know what the answer is for Israel. The situation seems to be getting far worse in Israel and the entire region. It was only a few short years ago that peace seemed to be reasonably within reach. The world is becoming more violent then ever and lessons learned from wars of the last century are being ignored or lost. Nuclear attacks are being talked about casually, as if in reality these things would not bring the destruction of civilization as we know it. | ||
| Eric Wertheim Citizen Username: Bub Post Number: 215 Registered: 1-2005 |
Lebanon might be thrust into civil war. Its a fragile peace there. One camp would be happy if Israel laid waste to Hizbullah and its southern areas of control, as long as the north is left alone. I wonder how wise the tactic of bombing Beirut is. There is no central authority with the power to confront Hizbullah. But tactics aside, I think Israel must make war on Hizbullah. They are the proxies of Iran and Syria, and will not stop as long as those 2 see it in their interest to be confrontational. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2725 Registered: 5-2001 |
I couldn't disagree with you more unless you are trying to say that cmontyburns's post was so ridiculous that even subsequent reasoned posts by J.Crohn and others have now been ignored. As far as who is rooting for humanity? Please. There's no comparison. End of discussion. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 1253 Registered: 2-2004 |
las, I kind of agree with you. In my mind this is nothing new. Just the latest version. Why Israel doesn't take off the gloves is beyond me. What I find so interesting is this often talked about angering of the Arab masses. These countries are all talk and only have terrorism as a weapon. And I believe most of the Arab masses have been calling for the destruction of Israel. They are an honest lot. Only U.S. liberals will be upset when Israel does what it has to do. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14976 Registered: 1-2003 |
The discussion ends when we stop talking, Wendy, not when you want the last word. And you sound like you're saying the "right" people should prevail, and that that's more important than seeing the dying ending. I hope I'm reading you wrong. I do believe retaliation is a necessary evil in some cases. I said so above. This retaliation might end up being justified. Mostly, I am bemoaning the increase and continuation of fighting and killing. That's nothing to celebrate, even when it's necessary. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2727 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom you're the one who wished the thread was closed after cmonty's post; not me. What I sound like to you is incorrect and you are indeed reading me wrongly. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 14977 Registered: 1-2003 |
I'm not "the one," Wendy. We're the two. Thank you for telling me I'm wrong. I'm glad about that. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12128 Registered: 5-2001 |
Uhm, guys, this is a different thread.  |
