| Author | Message | ||
     cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5747 Registered: 8-2003 |
The world has been more violent in it's history than it is today. There is no humane response to terrorists or to someone who wants to kill you. This conflict will only end with a decisive victory. You can't negotiate a peace with someone committed to wiping out your state. Israel has to operationally wipe out Hezbollah and Hamas unless they renounce violence and stop making war with Israel. | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2544 Registered: 3-2003 |
"Obviously the new tactic is to take Israeli soliders as "POWs"" This is not a new tactic at all, BobK. It has been used by Hizballah repeatedly over the years. The last instance resulted in Sharon capitulating and handing over a bunch of terrorists in exchange for a few Israelis. Whether one thinks this was a wise move or not, Olmert now is paying the price for Sharon having given in. Hamas has even referred explicitly to the fact that Israel has done prisoner swaps in the past, and claims it will again. Every move by Hamas or Hizballah is incrementalist, Chess-like. Every concession Israel makes is another toehold for extremists who desire Israel's complete destruction. Every military response Israel makes is restrained by world opinion and self-interested east-west geostrategic manouverings. (Honestly, Russia, which has assasinated every Chechen separatist, moderates as well as radicals, bombed the bejesus out of Chechnya, decimated its economy, refused access to the Red Cross, set up grisly torture centers, and installed a thuggish rule over the region, can only be critical of Israeli responses to Hamas and Hizb. if it's objective is to stick it to the US. Because, guess what? Russia's extraordinary brutality has worked.) Obviously, anyone who believes Israel is the most powerful actor in the mideast is dishonest or an idiot. BobK: "What happened to the Lebanese efforts to oust Syria, their troops and influence from their country that seemed so promising a few short months ago?" It failed. No one in the rest of the world cared. No one wrote reams of press copy alerting do-gooders to injustice. Israel's crimes are all that matter. Mustt: "I guess the last thing they need is the return of the Syrians and the dismantling of their elected government." See what I mean? Mustt_Mustt actually has no idea that Syria already controls the "elected" government of Lebanon. It determines who will stand for office, and tells its hand-picked men what they will and will not do. When an upstart like former Lebanese PM Rafik Hariri defies Damascus, he is executed [or, well, assasinated]; thus are his successors warned. (But of course among Hizballah's supporters in Beirut, the Mossad is promptly blamed, just as Mossad was blamed for 9-11 (see, for instance, http://judicial-inc.biz/Lebanon_Prime_Minister.htm). The Lebanese don't stand a chance. Frankly, I'm really afraid Israel might destroy Beirut. It would be a massive strategic error. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12130 Registered: 5-2001 |
JC, you are correct about the kidnapping tactic. I forgot. I wonder why the Israelis are destabilishing what government Lebanon has. They may end up with something much worse and almost certainly will if they take out good sized chunks of Beirut. Does Israel prefer to have unstable neighbors as opposed to stable ones? Possibly, since they are less likely to be abole to coordinate a real attack. | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 80 Registered: 4-2006  |
>>I wonder why the Israelis are destabilishing what government Lebanon has. Because Hezbolla is part of that government and is allowed to operate in the south against Israel by that government. Surely the government is responsible. A stable Lebanon could be good for Israel, but not if its government is allowing militias to attack Israel. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12131 Registered: 5-2001 |
Larry, by your logic Israel is responsible for Hamas and Islamic Jihad being able to operate in the West Bank and Gaza because Israel has control of those area. What is going to happen in Lebanon is the same thing that has happened in Gaza. More people are radicalized and they may elect a Hezzbalah government, not just a few members of parliament. This is basically what happened in the occupied territories. Israel didn't like Abbas and marginalized him, so now they have Hamas. Hitler expected the Brits to throw out Churchill and bring back Chamberlain because of the Blitz. Didn't happen and it ain't going to happen in the middle east. As hard as it is for some to understand Arabs aren't, in the end, any different than any other people. I see cleaning out southern Lebanon, it is a danger to Israel both immediately and long term. But, totally destabilizing the country will push the average Lebanese closer to Syria. | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 81 Registered: 4-2006 |
Bob, are Hamas and Islamic Jihad part of the Israeli government? I don't think you're making any sense here. Hezbolla doesn't just have a few members of Parliament, they are part of the government, they have cabinet ministries. Of all the militias that ruled Lebanon in the 70's and 80's they are the only one remaining and it's a conscious decision of the Lebanese goverment and their Syrian masters that this is the case. Your notion that the Israelis are responsible for Hamas may be common, but it's morally deficient. The Palestinians voted in a bunch of bigoted terrorists (not that Fatah is really that much better) and they have to pay the consequences. Or do you think the answer now is for Israel to tolerate rockets and kidnappings? Please, I dare you to make a constructive suggestion. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12132 Registered: 5-2001 |
Larry, in actual fact Israel is the government of Gaza and the West Bank and Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others flourish there. Israel never realized that Abbas is about as good as they were going to get. They marginalized him, or at least that is the way I see it, instead of building him up and making him seem like a hero to the Palestinians. I assume this was because of his Fatah ties. The Palestinians became frustrated and elected Hamas, which is a world of hurt for Israel and the Palestinians. Unless Israel is working with anti-Syrian elements to set up a new government, destabilizing the current Lebanese government will probably increase Husballah's and Syria's influence in whatever replaces it. Israel has the right to defend itself and go after the POWs and create a buffer in Southern Lebanon until things stabilize, if that is possible. However, I think they have gone way behond this. I believe they conducted over 100 airstrikes today, some all the way to the Syria border. Terrorism is a funny thing. If Israel had stuck to that view point in the early days they never would have had a government. Many of their early leaders were involved with the Stern Gang, the murder of Count Bernadotte, The bombing of the Palestinian hotel, etc. Maybe they are going to have to move behond that issue. | ||
| Illuminated Radish Citizen Username: Umoja Post Number: 25 Registered: 6-2006 |
I'm confused how a government is supposed to control terrorist guerillas, even if some of them have an affiliation with the government. Maybe democracy isn't the best choice for economic development in these countries, and I honestly think this can be backed up. Democracies in a lot of poorer (the PC term is '3rd World') countries were enacted rather suddenly. The leaders in those countries tended to appeal to people's fear, hatred and prejudice (the 'lower emotions') to gain power. It's allowed hot-heads like Hamas and Hezbollah to gain a strong footing in the government, and the more the attack Israel, no matter how strong Israel's response is, they'll only be able to draw on more hatred. Granted, Israel isn't my idea of a paradigm nation. It's clearly in the position of power, and really is the only nation in the middle east that can stop the conflict, but it would need to accept not striking back. But I don't go to school for political science, nor am I an expert on everything that has happened in the Mid-East since 1920. Just my $.02 | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 689 Registered: 1-2006 |
If it doesn't strike back for long enough, there won't be an Israel. jd | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 601 Registered: 8-2003 |
J Crohn, This is a Bush quote from today's Times: “Whatever Israel does should not weaken the Siniora government in Lebanon,” the president said. “We have been working very hard through the United Nations and with our partners to strengthen the democracy in Lebanon.” And because of its ties to Hezbollah, Mr. Bush said, “Syria needs to be held to account.” (End of quote) So the Bush admin would rather have a Syrian propped by Lebanese govt in place even as Syria needs to be held accountable for its support of the Hezbollah. Hello! | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 602 Registered: 8-2003 |
J Crohn, This is a Bush quote from today's Times: “Whatever Israel does should not weaken the Siniora government in Lebanon,” the president said. “We have been working very hard through the United Nations and with our partners to strengthen the democracy in Lebanon.” And because of its ties to Hezbollah, Mr. Bush said, “Syria needs to be held to account.” (End of quote) So the Bush admin would rather have a Syrian propped Lebanese govt in place even as Syria needs to be held accountable for its support of the Hezbollah. Hello! | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 691 Registered: 1-2006 |
A fine blogger: By TigerHawk at 7/13/2006 04:00:00 PM Lebanon, while entirely unhappy to be at the business end of Israeli ordnance, has pointed the finger at Syria and, by extension, Iran: Syria is holding Lebanon hostage by giving orders to the Lebanese Shiite militant group Hezbollah which has captured two Israeli soldiers, a leading Lebanese minister said. Syrian Vice-President "Faruq Shara gives the orders, Hezbollah executes them and Lebanon is the hostage," Communication Minister Marwan Hamadeh told AFP. And, of course, Syria does nothing without orders from its overlords in Tehran. Meanwhile, the United States has cast a veto against a United Nations resolution condemning Israel: The United States cast the first U.N. Security Council veto in nearly two years Thursday, blocking an Arab-backed resolution that would have demanded Israel halt its military offensive in the Gaza Strip. The draft, sponsored by Qatar, accused Israel of a "disproportionate use of force" that endangered Palestinian civilians, and it demanded Israel withdraw its troops from Gaza. This was a good veto to cast. It seems to me obvious that Israel's use of force has been extremely measured, all things considered. Indeed, it has not yet been sufficient to coerce the return of the soldiers held hostage by Hamas and Hezbollah, so whatever its proportionality it is manifestly inadequate. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3564 Registered: 5-2001  |
Haifa has been attacked. This is getting way out of hand. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4476 Registered: 12-2001  |
I don't think that the Arabs properly understand how asymetric warfare (nice term for terrorism) works. When the target of terrorism has negotiable options, then terrorism actually is pretty effective. That is why the Palestinians more or less have their own country. Israel could negotiate this point without committing suicide. However, when the terrorists seem intent on the utter destruction of Israel, they will succeed only in kiling people but will not achieve their goals, because Israel can hardly negotiate her own survival. I sort of get the impression that as Islamic violence increases world wide, it raises the possibility that it will be ended in a spasm of violence that kills tens of millions of Muslims and the rest of the world won't care because everybody is getting tired of the terrorism. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 972 Registered: 4-2006 |
The present tactic of the Israel Defense Forces is to prevent the movement of the two abducted soldiers (both reservists and Israeli Jews, contrary to my earlier post) out of Lebanon to Damascus or Teheran. The attacks have focused on bridges, and airports, both civilian and millitary,from which the soldiers can be moved. And also rocket battery sites. Israel has also noticed residents of the Dahiya section of Beirut ( a stronghold of Hezbollah) to avoid Hezbollah offices and facilities. Israel may attempt to seize Hizbollah leaders to bargain for the release of the soldiers as well. Israel has acted as morally and ethically as possible so far in accordance with a well established guiding principal of the Israeli Army , " tohar ha'neshek", translated as purity of arms, which means the avoidance of killing non-combatants and loss of human life.Again, it is a citizen's army. Everyone must serve. Concerns expressed here about the loss of life of innocent civilians ignores one thing, namely that the Hezbollah and Hamas and Islamic Jihadi terrorists ensure they locate themselves in heavily populated civilian areas for just this reason. They could care less about innocent civilian deaths, but welcome the outrage and publicity it would generate. The Israeli actions may also be welcomed in Lebanon itself by the Maronites (Christians) and Sunni muslims ( the Hezbollah is sh'ite) who have been seeking to remove Hezbollah as a millitary force from Lebanon. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 1259 Registered: 2-2004 |
Here we go again. The sky is falling, the sky is falling. This is just another round of the never ending battle. Beirut won't be demolished. No governments will be toppled. This isn't the beginning of a war. If it was, why would Israel be bombing roadways and runways? To make a point with as few casualties as possible. If this were a war Beirut and Damascus would already be leveled. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15287 Registered: 10-2001  |
Nuclear war by Sunday. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4478 Registered: 12-2001 |
Pretty long odds on that in Vegas. | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2545 Registered: 3-2003 |
"So the Bush admin would rather have a Syrian propped by Lebanese govt in place even as Syria needs to be held accountable for its support of the Hezbollah. Hello!" Mustt, a) I'm not sure what you find significant in this quote, which reads like boilerplate PR to me, and b) why in the world do you assume I pay attention to what George says? | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 1266 Registered: 2-2004 |
sbenois, Your emotions are definitely getting the better of you. Israel doesn't need to use nukes to win this. These Arab nations have nothing of consequence with which to fight. Our media loves to show the chanting and marching in the street, but that is all they have. Soon enough, Assad and the crew in Lebanon controlled by him, will pull back and this latest skirmish will be over. How many times must the same scenario be played out. It's kind of like watching U.S. Democrats talk themselves into believing they actually have a chance to win an election. Empty words and no actions. Kind of like the big talking Arabs who throw rocks. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3566 Registered: 5-2001 |
This isn't the beginning of a war. If it was, why would Israel be bombing roadways and runways? Um, maybe because it is tactically advantageous, and because killing as many people as possible is not their goal. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 989 Registered: 4-2006 |
J. Crohn- By way of explaining, they have a Bush fetish here. Kind of like their own variant of S&M. If you don't agree with every word they say you are magically transformed into a Bush supporter or administration lackey. I am expecting an article on this any day now in "Psychology Today". | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 603 Registered: 8-2003 |
J.Crohn, What I implied by quoting Bush is that one cannot be reductionist when one is analyzing the Lebanese govt. Things have changed in Lebanon after the departure of the Syrians, a move that was actually celebrated by ordinary Lebanese. I am not saying that the Syrians do not exercise any influence on Lebanese politics but it is nowhere close to what it used to be. The election post-Syria scenario was an exercise in democracy. That the Bush admin does not want the Siniora govt to be weakened at the present juncture shows that the Americans would prefer him in power than see the return of the Baathists. You stated that I had no idea about the goings-on in Syria and I wanted to correct that impression. If Bush's quote is "boilerplate PR," then the US has a long way to go in genuinely understanding middle-eastern political dynamics. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12135 Registered: 5-2001 |
The problem is that in pursuing a short term goal, the recovery of the two POWs (I will give you good odds they are no longer in Lebanon btw), Israel is risking forcing regime change in Lebanon that would result in a much more hostile government completely dominated by Syria and Hezbollah. I don't have a problem with the Israelis cleaning out southern Lebanon, but 100 airstrikes in one day all over the country is an over reaction. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 992 Registered: 4-2006 |
Bob K- Hmmm... so Israeli self-defense is like an "eruv"?  You don't seem to want to recognize the NUMBER of missles FIRED into Israel over the past 2 days. Please read: www.jpost.com and see. Israel has to take such steps as it can to destroy as much of Hezbollah millitary capacity it can until the hostile world community imposes some form of band-aid resolution to save Hezbollah. Bob K if you lived under such circumstances you would be asking why the government did not do 200 airstrikes a day, not 100. The Syrians will not be back millitarily in Lebanon. Their intelligence agents never left. Both the Lebanese Maronites and Sunnis hope that Israel does destroy the power of sh'ia Hezbollah as the Lebanese millitary cannot. What is preventing Lebanon from becoming truly independent is Hezbollah. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12136 Registered: 5-2001 |
FvF, the key words in my post were "all over the country". I don't have a problem, in fact I support, the attack into Southern Lebanon to take out the missle sites. However, a full blown first strike all over the country and a naval blockade is a little extreme and probably wouldn't have the result Israel is looking for. There are a fair number of Lebanese who don't like the Syrian/Iranian?Hezbollah influence and would be happy to be rid of Hezbollah. However, I think you are talking about a civil war, which was disasterous the last time around and Hezbollah is by far the best equipted and trained quasi-military organization in that country. Hezbollah control of Southern Lebanon is a real threat to the Israelis and one that will become worse once Iran has nuclear weapons. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1657 Registered: 10-2004  |
At this point, Israel has made its strategic plan and is acting on it. The Hezbollah attacks on its civilians gave them no choice but to remove Hezbollah from their borders. anon on a different thread asked me if killing civilians in a time of war - as in Dresden - was wrong. It saddens me to say that while I think it is wrong, there may be no other alternative. Israel did its best by dropping leaflets letting the population know where they were going to bomb in order to prevent innocent loss of life. Then they proceeded to bomb and take innocent life in the process. I cant see where Israel had much choice in this event. I also cant see any way out of the mess here. I think that the muslim people if they want peace have an obligation to themselves to speak out against muslim extremists. The only way to remove these people as a threat in the world is for muslims themselves to police themselves. While Israel may quell a storm by brutally attacking and removing Hezbollah from its borders, the 'peace' they receive will be only temporary. It takes generations for people to change their outlooks and change their way of thinking about religion, racism and prejudice. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5298 Registered: 9-2001  |
...well said Hoops. Government must protect its people, and the people must control their government. It's time that Muslim people everywhere speak out against the extremists! However, I don't agree it has to take generations to do it... | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3568 Registered: 5-2001 |
So now Lebanon is asking for a cease fire... WTF?! How about they offer to return the Israeli soldiers, I think that might do the trick. And if they had done that a couple of days ago, they'd still have a usable airport. Does anyone think there is any truth to Lebanon's claim that they have no control over Hezbollah? | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1659 Registered: 10-2004 |
uh-oh.  ajc - The longer the conflict the longer it will take to remove the stigma and change the attitudes of the participants. Racism in the USA still present. The South is still fighting the civil war. anti-semitism is still here in the USA, so how can it be possible to eliminate these attitudes in the middle east in our lifetimes? | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 82 Registered: 4-2006 |
I'm sure there's something to their claim they can't stop Hezbollah, but that doesn't diminish their responsibility. As a government they took Hezbollah in and gave them two cabinet ministries and allowed them to operate autonomously. Maybe they can't stop them but they haven't even spoken up against them; quite the contrary, by bringing them into the government they endorse their policies. And Bob, I expected no less from you, but saying that they're bombing all over the country is an exxageration. Below is a map of Lebanon; the Israelis have bombed as far north as southern Beirut in areas that are controlled by Hezbollah.  | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2006 |
Incidentally, the continued operation of Hezbollah is in direct violation of UN Security Council Resolution 1559 (2004) which (in part): 3. Calls for the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias; By acquiescing in the continued operation of Hezbollah in the south and refusing to extend army control there, the government of Lebanon is in violation of that resolution. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 692 Registered: 1-2006 |
More from Tigerhawk, and sources. Go to the blog tigerhawk for hyperlinks. Israel at war By TigerHawk at 7/14/2006 04:50:00 PM [NOTE: I'll put links and commentary into this post as the day goes by, so it will remain on top until at least late Friday afternoon. Scroll down for new posts on different subjects.] 6:30 AM: Chester put up a new post last night with "six points" on the war in Israel. Go read it (and not only because he described my own war post as "extremely insightful"). 7:25 AM: If you haven't read it, or read it lately, it is time to read Mark Steyn's essay "Facing Down Iran." It is a powerful reminder of the history of the confrontation from the West's perspective. Unfortunately, like most indictments of Iran, it is short on solutions. But it remains the most compelling argument for dealing with Iran very seriously. 8:35 AM: There is interesting news in Stratfor's morning "geopolitical diary" (for which I make my usual suggestion that you should subscribe now if you have the extra coin): Two Katyusha rockets hit the Israeli port city of Haifa on Thursday [see Allison Kaplan Sommer's post on the impact of the Haifa attack on Israeli psychology - ed.], demonstrating the formidable reach of Hezbollah's rocket capabilities from southern Lebanon. Almost immediately afterward, Hezbollah issued an official denial of the attack. Following the denial, Stratfor received highly reliable information that the two missiles were not authorized by the core leadership, indicating major cracks in Hezbollah's chain of command. Israel, of course, is in the midst of launching an aggressive military campaign against Lebanon. The objective: devastate Hezbollah capabilities to the point where Israel is no longer going to lose sleep over its northern border. Hezbollah knows by now that the Israelis are not messing around. Israel is currently preparing its reservists for a sustained assault into southern Lebanon -- an operation that will involve a great deal of collateral damage and ensure Hezbollah is shattered. With the attack and denial, Hezbollah evidently wants to send out the message that it is in disarray. In other words, "please don't shoot -- let's talk." Israel, however, is well past the decision point. The plan to devastate Hezbollah is in full motion, and while the thought of dissent in Hezbollah's ranks would make an interesting discussion topic in diplomatic circles, the military reality of the situation has taken over. Israel will drive home the message to its Arab neighbors that its military capabilities should not be underestimated, and that Hezbollah will lose its spoiler status in the region. Israel also intends to use this opportunity to further polarize the Arab world against Iran's militant extensions into the Levant region, thus effectively deterring an Arab military response. It comes as no surprise that the surrounding Arab capitals have largely kept quiet in the past 24 hours. Beyond making strong condemnations against Israeli aggression, Israel's Arab neighbors, including Lebanon, do not want to be held responsible for Hezbollah's unilateral actions. Israel has shown no restraint targeting key infrastructural targets in Lebanon. By hitting at the country's economic lifeline, Israel is reinforcing the idea that providing Hezbollah with popular support is an extremely costly endeavor, both physically and financially. Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia are nowhere near interested in engaging Israel's military in defense of a militant group that acts as an agent on behalf of Iran and its Arab ally in the region, Syria. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak likely relayed this message to Syrian President Bashar al Assad when they spoke over the phone on Thursday. Simply put, al Assad has to make a choice between cooperating with his Arab brothers -- that is, intervening to stem the crisis -- or taking a serious blow from the Israelis. Al Assad knows he is in the hot seat. Typically, the Syrian strategy is to play dead, stay silent and count on international condemnation to stay Israel's hand. That is not an option this time around. Israel will not put ground forces in Lebanon, particularly in the Bekaa Valley, without first eliminating the Syrian air force; to do otherwise would be to leave Israel's right flank wholly vulnerable. If al Assad does nothing, Israel will have to assume that Syria is waiting for an opportune moment to strike, and will act accordingly. The Hezbollah celebration over capturing two Israeli soldiers was evidently short-lived. Within a few days Hezbollah, while it will still exist in some form, will cease to function as a military organization capable of anything but tactical, reactionary operations. That will deny Iran its biggest, most powerful and most flexible international tool and cement Iranian impotence in the wider region. The question is, can Iran suffer this loss of capability and face without taking a substantial and visible action to support Hezbollah? If it does not, what proxy will risk doing Tehran's bidding in the future? The "Iran crisis" is at hand, and it has almost nothing to do with the nuclear program. Interestingly, this is along the lines of something Ali Ansari predicted during the "roundtable" discussion on Iran at Princeton back in March. He argued then that the nuclear showdown was really a "proxy" for a host of unresolved issues with Iran, and he expected that the real confrontation would emerge in some other way, perhaps in Iraq. Well, the fire was lit by Hezbollah in northern Israel, but Iran may yet strike back through Shia militants in Iraq. The end of Hezbollah's military capability would be a wonderful accomplishment and I wish Israel well, but Iran will either exact a price or suffer an enormous geopolitical defeat in the process. This isn't even the end of the beginning. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12139 Registered: 5-2001 |
Larry, the IDF took out the one Leanese airbase with three or four obsolete helicopters (the whole air force). The base is on the Syrian border and I had the impression it was in the far north. The Lebanese government, meaning the non Shia portion, is still weak and I doubt if they have the forces to kick the Hezbollah militias out of the country. A fair amount of progress has been made in getting the Syrian military out of the country. I hope the current bruhah doesn't turn the clock back. Israel has managed to make peace with Jordan and Egypt and doesn't have to worry about attack from those quarters (unless they have regime change). It would be great if they can end up with a similar treaty with Lebanon. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5304 Registered: 9-2001 |
"...how can it be possible to eliminate these attitudes in the middle east in our lifetimes?" President Truman had the right idea. Check out the warnings he gave the Japanese before he gave the orders to use the bomb... Listen, I believe we should pray for peace and fight for freedom. If we keep listening to the world's leaders, we will be "restraining" and trying to "negotiate" ourselves right into our own graves. I say a head for an eye, and for every one death, give back ten in return. Enough already, the writing is on the wall. I believe it's time for "Peace By Any Means Necessary", ...in our lifetime! | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3569 Registered: 5-2001 |
Two Katyusha rockets hit the Israeli port city of Haifa on Thursday [see Allison Kaplan Sommer's post on the impact of the Haifa attack on Israeli psychology - ed.], demonstrating the formidable reach of Hezbollah's rocket capabilities from southern Lebanon. Almost immediately afterward, Hezbollah issued an official denial of the attack. Following the denial, Stratfor received highly reliable information that the two missiles were not authorized by the core leadership, indicating major cracks in Hezbollah's chain of command. If this is accurate... well, what can Israel do? If the guys who are supposed to make the decisions can't control their own forces, then the only option is to take them out. Really, Hezbollah itself or some official Lebanese unit ought to take out the group that fired the missiles, if they truly weren't sanctioned by top leadership. But the point is that Israel can't be expected to negotiate with a force that can't guarantee the actions of its own people. (And this has been a problem for leadership on all sides in the area for a loooong time; there's always a few militant individuals that disagree with the terms their leaders come to and take things into their own hands. Very frustrating!) | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 3091 Registered: 12-2001  |
I read the first five or six posts in this thread - there was a lot of concern about criticism of Israel being the dominant response. Has that proven so to the extent expected? I think Americans are very conflicted on this, but perhaps some were gratified to find less evidence of anti-Israel sentiment than they expected. | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3502 Registered: 9-2001  |
This is a regional conflict, and has been for a long time. It is not just Israel vs. Palestine. It is Iran making a power play; Sunni vs. Shiite struggles; poor versus wealthy Arabs; autocrats versus their own people; and the world lining up with various oil interests. The Israel-Palestine conflict is the current focal point for all these tensions. Israel's reaction has to be seen in this context--typically, rather than wait and talk, Israel has acted accordingly and left the talking to later. The only solution will be a regional solution. That will only happen if the US, Russia, and European Community coordinate themselves to exert extreme pressure and dedicate themselves almost exlusively to a comprehensive settlement that involves all regional players.. Unfortunately, I do not see this happening. Russia and much of Europe keeps molly-coddling the Palestinian terrorists and also Palestinian corruption, and is playing funny games regarding Arab oil. The US is too distracted by Iraq and Afghanistan to pay full attention. Saudi Arabia and Egypt are so tied in knots with their own internal radical Muslim problems that they cannot see straight. So, Iran and Syria fill the vaccuum with what is simultaneously a way to distract their own populace (focus on Israel) and a way to prosecute the growing Sunni-Shiite schism that is in danger of breaking out into civil war in Lebanon (and already has to a large extent in Iraq). Israel has little choice in this situation other than to protect its interests as best it can because no one else appears capable of resolving the regional crisis. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5306 Registered: 9-2001 |
"...the only solution will be a regional solution." This is not just a regional issue, it's a world wide Muslim issue, and the Muslim people everywhere, and people in nations everywhere, must speak out against the extremists, and not against Israel for protecting itself... | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave  Post Number: 10101 Registered: 4-1997  |
There are extremists on all sides. |
