| Author | Message | ||
     Madden 11 Citizen Username: Madden_11 Post Number: 986 Registered: 12-2003 |
Wrong, Dave. Haven't you ever heard that expression, "There's one side to every story?" | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1858 Registered: 5-2001 |
Good point, themp. Sbenois started the thread pre-outraged, leaving little room for genuine response. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5308 Registered: 9-2001  |
So, what does that have to do with what I said? The Muslims on both sides of the issues need an extreme makeover, thus the extremists who are not Muslims need to be the ones giving it... I'm into extreme peace now, not another 1,000 years from now... | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1662 Registered: 10-2004  |
so your motto would be what? "Peace now, Or We'll Blow you UP" | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 698 Registered: 1-2006 |
Peace now, before you blow US up. jd | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5310 Registered: 9-2001 |
...that's about right. Do me, and I'll do you back double. Give me peace, I'll give it back. Give me war, I'll blow you up. Hey, what's your motto Hoops? | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2546 Registered: 3-2003 |
"Things have changed in Lebanon after the departure of the Syrians, a move that was actually celebrated by ordinary Lebanese. ... You stated that I had no idea about the goings-on in Syria and I wanted to correct that impression." You've only compounded it, Mustt. The Syrian army--a pathetic force, barely equipped--departed Lebanon under Lebanese, UN and US pressure. But Syria's Mukhabarat (its secret service, thoroughly integrated into Lebanese society) never left. It is bizarre for you to say Lebanese "actually celebrated" Syrian military withdrawal, since the Lebanese in fact demonstrated repeatedly, in great numbers, on behalf of it, persuant to an agreement made under UN auspices back in, I think, 1992. It's not like the Syrian army pulled out and the Lebanese found themselves pleasantly surprised. Unfortunately, Syrian withdrawal was largely a symbolic concession. As long as Syria and Iran are Hizballah's patrons and Hizballah refuses to disarm, little has changed. "Ordinary Lebanese" have been able to pretend for some time that the Party of God merely defends Lebanese sovereignty against Israel. Now they know otherwise, and they're saying so out loud. | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2547 Registered: 3-2003 |
Oops, I see I recapitulated much of FvF's 7:29 post. | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2548 Registered: 3-2003 |
"Does anyone think there is any truth to Lebanon's claim that they have no control over Hezbollah?" I'm afraid that may be true. Then again, I guess it depends on what you're prepared to do. The Lebanese have so far not been particularly motivated to restrain Hizballah. These events may change things. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4481 Registered: 12-2001  |
I don't know what the problem is with the Lebanese. I would think that with another ten or so years of civil war, they could defeat Hezbollah. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12143 Registered: 5-2001 |
There were demonstrations and counterdemonstrations during the Syrian "withdrawal", A spontaneous pro democracy demonstration was followed by a pro Syria demonstration a few days later. For the latter demonstrations the busses bringing in the demonstrators from Syria were parked just out of camera range.  | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1665 Registered: 10-2004 |
ajc - I kind of lean towards the golden rule. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 996 Registered: 4-2006 |
Since the time of the Oslo Accords and the return of Yasser Arafat and his cronies to run Gaza and the West Bank under the agreement with Israel the Palestinian people have been prepared for war, not peace. Their educational system is designed to teach hate, their mullahs preach extremist violence, and their politicians fail to actually renounce violence and accept a two-state solution, saying one thing for domestic consumption and another for foreign media and leaders. A comparison with Japan at the time of WWII is apt. The Japanese practiced emperor-worship in an extreme form of shinto similiar to the extreme religious fanaticism of Hamas, their schools taught Japanese racial and cultural superiority over all peoples, and they too had their kamakazis, soldiers who would die for the emperor. They had to be completely defeated in order to secure change in these areas. Japanese society was fundamentally changed by the american occupation and careful installation of the principals of democratic government and non-ideological education. In the present case Israel must be allowed to millitarily defeat the Palestinians,to wipe out their fantasies of a one-state solution.Then "Palestine" should be placed under a 50 year UN mandate, to allow time for societal and political reforms in order to give peace a chance. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 3092 Registered: 12-2001  |
"Sbenois started the thread pre-outraged, leaving little room for genuine response." He tends toward the sententious at times. Others chimed in with strained facetious typlification of the "left" poosition. I'm just wondering if it developed as they expected. | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2549 Registered: 3-2003 |
"Russia and much of Europe keeps molly-coddling the Palestinian terrorists and also Palestinian corruption, and is playing funny games regarding Arab oil." Yup, ESL, I think we are seeing a sort of Cold War redux. The Russians are bent out of shape about US criticism of its progress toward (or rather, retreat from) democratization. The de facto nationalization of Yukos & Rosneft, secret service crackdowns on delegates attending international conferences, media control, exceptional brutality in Chechnya and assasinations of moderate separatist leaders there--all have been criticised openly by the US. (Germany has been critical as well, but is now tiptoeing very carefully due to its dependence on Russian energy.) There is no way the Russians, who knocked off the Chechen equivalent of Mahmud Abbas, along with every other separatist leader and terrorist it could lay hands on, and installed a thugocracy in Chechnya to control it, have the slightest ground from which to condemn Israeli responses to Hamas and Hizballah. I mean, it's laughable. Those responses are nothing compared to what Putin would have ordered. So I figure this is all about taking the US down a peg and advancing Russia's global influence. The only reason Russia is refusing to take a hard line on Iranian nukes (it must know as well as we do that the risk to even greater mideast destabilization is huge) and is making noises about Israeli "disproportion," is that Russia is using or allying with Iran against the US. It's all a power play. Think about it: Russia believes it can deal with terrorism just fine if left alone to do so. But it knows the US can't, because the US is not...well, Russia. How convenient, then, that Islamist terror bedevils the US and its mideast allies, drawing us more and more into battles we cannot ignore. The more it does, the more relative power the Russians can exercise. Furthermore, the dearer the cost of oil, the richer the Russians become, and the more dependent we become on them. | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2550 Registered: 3-2003 |
"I don't know what the problem is with the Lebanese. I would think that with another ten or so years of civil war, they could defeat Hezbollah." LOL! (But very darkly.) | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave  Post Number: 10103 Registered: 4-1997  |
Japan was easier to occupy and reform because we literally defeated a person many Japanese believed to be a god (Hirohito), who gave a radio address telling the nation he was not a god. That was a profound wakeup call. Also, Japanese are a unified nation and culture. In the Middle East there are so many factions and tribes it's impossible to keep them from fighting without using an iron fist. That's why Saddam was a stabilizing force and a good balance to Iranian mullahs. Bush Sr. knew this. Bush Jr. is an idiot advised by people fascinated by war. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 998 Registered: 4-2006 |
Dave- The Palestinians are a single entity. A millitary defeat would accomplish the same result as un-deifying Hirohito. The Palestinians would have to re-examine their key premise that by bleeding Israel to death by incremental terrorism they can ultimately replace it. So far instead they have been saved by the USA, the EU, Gulf states,etc. and can continue to wage terrorist war on a scale they choose. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12146 Registered: 5-2001 |
FvF, were you in the State Department in the early years of Bush II? Your comments sound an awful lot like the neo-con philosophy for Iraq, you know, "give 'em a bloody nose and they will come around." The Palestinians aren't going to stand up and fight Israel toe to toe. They know they can't win. They will fade into the darkness and come back doin' what they have always done. The next thing you are probably going to advocate is genocide. You know these are a bunch of religious extremists who are sub-human and don't deserve to live. Sound uncomfortably familar? Hope so. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 700 Registered: 1-2006 |
Just the facts, mam. for Melanie Phillips, a Brit columnist. July 13, 2006 Syria and Iran wage war on Israel Israel is now at war with Iran and Syria, which are waging war against Israel through their proxies Hezbollah and Hamas in pursuit of their declared aim to exterminate it. The 1000-plus rocket attacks from Gaza, the incursions into Israel and murder and kidnap of its soldiers, the murder and kidnap of more of its soldiers in northern Israel and the shelling of Israel’s northern towns from Lebanon, with two killed in Nahariya and Safed and more injured, and now the rocket attacks on Haifa, all are acts of war — in the latest of which which Lebanon itself is complicit — to which Israel has no option but to respond with force. Yossi Klein Halevi writes: The next Middle East war — Israel against genocidal Islamism — has begun…The war will go on for months, perhaps several years. There may be lulls in the fighting, perhaps even temporary agreements and prisoner exchanges. But those periods of calm will be mere respites. At the very heart of this war is Iran. Earlier this week the Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrullah said the world would soon see the demise of Israel. What we are now seeing may be the start of a new offensive by Iran against the free world. Israel is our collective front line; Iran has made that plain enough, even though we have not had ears to listen. Thanks to the pusillanimity of the world, Iran is on a roll. It has repeatedly threatened to destroy Israel and wage war against the west and yet the free world has done nothing except wring its hands. Iran has watched with scarcely concealed contempt as Europe and the UN pursue their farcical attempts to pressure it into abandoning its nuclear weapons programme while America, the wounded behemoth, licks its wounds over Iraq. In light of this fact, the reaction of the British and western media and chattering classes to Israel’s current behaviour is beyond farce. So blinded are they by their fixation that Israel is the aggressor and regional bully that even when Israel is plainly attacked in acts of unprovoked aggression they still blame Israel for causing the crisis. The BBC, as ever, has been playing a sickening role in this propaganda. On the World Service, it denied the fact that Israeli soldiers had been kidnapped on Israel’s own soil, calling the kidnapping of Cpl Shalit a ‘capture in (sic) Gaza’ and the kidnap of the two soldiers in the north of Israel a capture in ‘south Lebanon’. It has repeatedly presented the Israelis as the aggressors. BBC News Online described Israel’s actions as a ‘major offensive’. On the Today programme this morning (0810) it blamed Israel for ‘upping the ante’. The assumption is — fantastically —that it is Israel, rather than Iran, which is the danger to peace. Israel, it seems, must therefore not be allowed to defend itself when rockets are fired at its towns and cities. When it does so it is called ‘collective punishment’ or a ‘disproportionate response’ involving ‘massive collateral damage’, as was said on BBC Radio Four’s Moral Maze last night. As this emergency escalates and the casualty toll inevitably mounts, let us just remind ourselves at this stage what this alleged ‘collective punishment’ or ‘disproportionate response’ in Gaza consisted of. As this report notes: At the Karni crossing [from Israel into Gaza], over 100 truckloads of food and 14 generators were allowed in and at the Nahal Oz fuel terminal, 500,000 litres of diesel, 100,000 litres of gasoline and 125 tons of natural gas were allowed in. Earlier in the week, more than 265 tons of food, a truckload of medicine, over a 1,000,000 liters of fuel, 65,000 litres of chlorine and additional supplies were transferred in. Last week, more than 200 truckloads of food, 1,500,000 litres of fuel, and over 400 tons of natural gas passed into Gaza. Israel also continues to provide Gaza with an uninterrupted supply of water. The claims of a humanitarian disaster were therefore wholly untrue. Much of the electricity supply which went down after the strike on Gaza’s power station was restored within hours. Gaza obtains fifty percent of its electricity from the Ashkelon power station in Israel — a plant which, incidentally, Hamas has repeatedly tried to hit —and following the strike on the Gaza power station Israel upped this percentage to compensate. Some collective punishment! The Kassam rockets which were being fired into Israel from Gaza were dismissed (by Channel Four News’s Jon Snow and the BBC) as crude home made devices that threatened no-one. In fact, they have killed 13 Israelis and wounded more than forty others. By contrast, the vast majority of Palestinians who have been killed have been armed gunmen and terrorist godfathers. Yes, there have been Palestinian civilian casualties and these are always tragic. But in war, this happens. And the fact is that Israel has not gone in for indiscriminate bombing in Gaza. Indeed, this morning’s news was almost comic in the circumstances — that it had bombed the Gaza foreign ministry building at night when it was empty, precisely to avoid civilian casualties, only wounding three people. This crisis has developed because the world has failed to deal with Iran and Syria. President Bush described Hezbollah as a ‘group of terrorists who want to stop the advance of peace’. Not so. Iran is a terrorist state and Hezbollah is its army. The US is sitting on its hands over Iran while urging ‘restraint’ upon Israel, its victim. The world will not be safe unless and until Iran and Syria are stopped. And there is only one country that can do that, and it is not Israel. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10105 Registered: 4-1997 |
I don't have the sense that Palestinians are of one mind. It may make bombing them easier to believe so. | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1859 Registered: 5-2001 |
Our enemies are of one mind, and that mind is singularly focused on destroying us. We, on the other hand, are an open and friendly people, but we will fight to our last breath when necessary. | ||
| Illuminated Radish Citizen Username: Umoja Post Number: 26 Registered: 6-2006 |
You can't fight terrorism with bullets. It's alot like Vietnam if you ask me, if people don't want to be told what to do, almost no amount of force will convince them otherwise. Honestly, to stop Islamic millitants in Palestine ,you'd have to destroy every Palestinian and then salt the earth. I'm led to believe that even the American War on Terror won't really accomplish much, it'll just help increase Islamic millitancy, and lead to more democracies led by hard line millitants. Maybe looking at Ireland for answers would help? | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15309 Registered: 10-2001  |
I believe that I started this thread at a fine time thank you - and with just the right amount of outrage for the hypocrisy that is exhibited towards Israel too often on these boards. The fact that Israeli soldiers were ambushed with not a single word about it here - until I started this thread - tells quote a lot about the double standard exhibited by some - like Mustt_Mustt and Hoops. In my book it is not acceptable to sit buy quietly while Israelis at maimed or attacked and to only show outrage when she strikes back. Hence the thread. And for those among you who were savy enough, you might have noticed that my sententious first paragraph (and thread title) was nearly a direct copy of Mustt_Mustt's opening salvo in the Deafening Thread he/she authored about a week ago on the Deafening Silence on MOL regarding Israel/Gaza. Further, to suggest that I somehow stifled the ability of posters to offer genuine responses is preposterous. You folks have minds, keyboards and a mouse. Write whatever the heck you please. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3685 Registered: 3-2004  |
Because of Israel's overreaction to the kidnapping of the single soldier, there can be no economic discussions at the current summit, there can be no peace in Iraq, and nuclear war is closer. They should calm down. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5623 Registered: 10-1999  |
I don't think we should start insinuating things about people, based on what they don't happen to comment on. That's a tactic that can be seen used elsewhere, but it doesn't belong here on MOL, imho. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4485 Registered: 12-2001 |
Tulip, Why do you think that fighting is increasing the risk of nuclear war? I think the most dangerous period in the Middle East was during 1973 when the fighting could have brought us into direct confrontation with the Soviet Union. Of course, at point in the future, additional Arab states will have nuclear weapons and then things will be really unstable. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3573 Registered: 5-2001  |
And now... back to the point. Or are you guys more concerned about each other than about the situation itself? Um... this Nasrallah dude is a full-on Hollywood bad guy. These militant Middle East guys would crack me up with the way they express themselves... except that they are actually dead serious. I mean, does he really want Israel to open up even more? That's the irritating thing about these guys who are so sure that some really great stuff awaits them after death, they just can't wait to be pounded into the sand and they don't even consider how many others will die with them. Looks like Hez got lucky and managed to hit an Israeli ship. Still, their military doesn't seem to be terribly impressive (big surprise). I'm guessing that Nasrallah is expecting the situation will continue to escalate until other countries join in, perhaps including Iran, and that Israel will forget to watch the South. I desperately hope he's wrong. As it is, this situation SUCKS. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15312 Registered: 10-2001 |
The reason why I think it is important to discuss the silence here is that it lies at the very core of why those who criticize the Israeli government's policies are often perceived as being anti-semites by the defenders of Israel's policies. If the critics were to have come out right up front and explicitly condemn Hezbollah for their actions, it would go a long way towards erasing the suspicions. But too often, such criticism from the progressive left is not even-handed at all. In fact, often the criticism is impossible to find. Earlier this week I posted the agenda for the UFPJ emergency briefing last night. It was blatantly one-sided. Not a single word about Israeli civilian casualties, nothing about securing the release of soldiers, etc. When the talking points came out, they were even more one-sided. Israel is the culprit in every aspect of the conflict. So is it any surprise that FVF questions whether Sheehan's comments (and it's highly questionable as to whether she really authored them) or those of other progressives are anti-semitic? I don't think it is. I think it's a perfectly natural reaction given the very blurry line that many on the left have drawn due to their silence. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2744 Registered: 5-2001 |
Agreed. Wendy Lauter - still quite a progressive lefty until they throw me out (if Tulip has her say) | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3686 Registered: 3-2004 |
tjohn: 1) This is a world in which nuclear arms are proliferating 2) unrest and instability in the Middle East have been ongoing, and do not end at the borders of the Middle East 3) If you look at the history of previous world wars, they began in an atmosphere of international tension, economic unrest and uncertainty, potential breaks in alliances and splits in which sides were taken by diverse nations over an incident occuring locally; an assassination of a King, the invasion of Poland by Germany. Sides were taken, Axis and Allies for example, based on perceived global interests and ambitions, and perceived need for defense against perceived aggressors. 4) Western nations, "Third World" nations such as African and South American nations, are at loggerheads over a variety of issues. The planet is ready for clash, and not with conventional weapons. I believe firmly that although Israel has had a remarkable history, and a legal right to exist, it is instigating an escalation in which nuclear powers will face off. In light of the absolutely horrible leadership in the US, and the crisis in Iraq in which hundreds of thousands of innocent people have died, the anger and rage against the US will create a nuclear climate. I hate to say it, but the climate is absolutely more ripe than ever before. I hope I am wrong. wendy: Your implication, and sbenois outright insinuation, that critics of the belligerence of Israel are antisemitic is a pathetic flashback to fascism. I choose to ignore it. Obviously, Judaism extends beyond the nationalism or allegiance to Israel, as Jews live well beyond the boundaries of Israel. If you can't take criticism, just leave it alone. I know I am not an anti-semite, and that that is a ridiculous assertion. You are simply upset about the vulnerability of Israel, which is understandable. Don't let your fears make you irrational. In fact, it could be argued that it is anti-semitic to say that you are not a "good Jew" if you are not a good Zionist. You are insinuating that all Jews who disagree with Netanyahu are not good Jews. THAT's anti-semitic. And FVF should learn how to spell "semitic" or I'll start circulating rumors that he's an anti-semite. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1007 Registered: 4-2006 |
sbenois- Damned with faint praise? It could very well be that Sheehan did not have the acute intelligence to write those comments herself, perhaps she is a suggestible blank slate, but the fact she essentially endorses them by her non-denials of the pertinent elements, and her statements about Israel, speaks volumes. Quite a number of Israelis have died over the last 2 days as a consequence of two agressive acts not of their making and the needs of Israel to defend itself as a soverign country. Our progressives like tulip regard measured and logical responses as inconsistent with protecting Lebanese or Palestinian innocents and claim it is not proportionate. If the same terrorism was perpetrated on them as is done to Israeli civilians I have no doubt they would be in the streets literally screaming for blood. She, like the others, perceive the Palestinians as the weak underdog, rather than part of the global agression being waged by radical islam against the non-believer. Our progressives live in a la-la land of pampered secular cultural and political philosophies that dictate moral equivalency and mouths mutual tolerance when dealing with an enemy who practices anything but. Their cluelessness is a danger to us as well as to them themselves. What amuses me greatly is the hatred and yammering about Bush. While he has his faults, the fact they can continue to focus on their mundane issues and petty politics is a tribute to his success so far in the war on terror. Otherwise they would only be able to focus on the unspeakable. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3687 Registered: 3-2004 |
Is Moral Equivalency something like cultural relativism..in your language? | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 85 Registered: 4-2006  |
Netanyahu? He's in the opposition. So Tulip, how many dead and/or kidnapped (it's 3 now, not 1) Israelis would it take before you thought it was worth taking action? Actually it's 4 kidnapped Israelis if you couldn Ron Arad, taken prisoner about 20 years ago and never accounted for. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3688 Registered: 3-2004 |
Larry, By all means, take action immediately. But megabombs? The airport? Come on!!! If you really want the guys back, go find them and break them out. What, you can't do the research? | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 86 Registered: 4-2006 |
>>If you really want the guys back, go find them and break them out. So you're saying they should go in with land forces? Really? And how are they supposed to know how to look? Please, I'm sure they'd appreciate your advice. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15314 Registered: 10-2001 |
It's simple: just pull out the rose colored glasses. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3689 Registered: 3-2004 |
Remember how Jews escaped from German occupation? Those who did? Remember espionage? Remember covert operations? Doesn't anyone do that any more? Now, we just bomb the hell out of everyone!!! That's war by Viking. That's ape man war. Get real. Of course negotiations and talks could be the ticket. But you all don't even want to consider that. Look all, just listen to the Security Council. You are alone, alone, all all alone, alone on a wide, wide sea. No country likes what Israel's doing right now, even if a few on MOL do. Violence is not the answer. | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 87 Registered: 4-2006 |
Wow, you're really stupid! Did you go to school for this? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3691 Registered: 3-2004 |
Well, you sound like a thug. I won't waste electricity or strokes of the keyboard on responding to your nasty posts. |
