| Author | Message | ||
     joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 712 Registered: 1-2006 |
The coastal facilities attacked were radar installations only (including so called grain silos). The reason being the radar-guided land to sea missile that hit the Israeli ship. Such missiles require a coastal radar to guide them through the initial phase of their flight. In addition the Israeli Navy has finally turned on their missile defense system (turned off to prevent friendly-fire incidents between Navy and air. [from somewhere, today.] jd | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12161 Registered: 5-2001 |
Joel, I would love to know your source. The TV images show bunkers burning, so it appears that fueling facilities were taken out. | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 608 Registered: 8-2003 |
FvsF, You say: "I find most people really know little about the conflict or issues, and apply a western secular mindset to a dispute that involves religious fundamentalism and oriental thought processes on the arab side." Your claim to knowledge of history, conflicts etc that you deny to others on this list because of their "Western secular mindsets" shows that you have to do some learning with regard to Orientalism. It was the Arabs and the East that were orientalized by the Europeans and not the other way round and also religious fundamentalism is not the sole property of any particular religion but belongs to all. If I remember right, the West condemned Russia's disproporionate offense against Chechnya which caused thousands of innocent lives. That Russia ignored the condemnation is anothere matter. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3722 Registered: 3-2004  |
If you listen to Wendy, Jesus was an appeaser. Doesn't the Bible advocate turning swords into ploughshares? (Or is that the New Testament.) I like "What about "Thou Shalt not Kill" don't you understand?" I think Israel needs to look again at negotiations, not because it should appease terrorists, but it should do some better planning if it wants to survive. It has a right to survive, but who would grant anyone the right to survive if their sole means of existence is bombing and attacking its neighbors? | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 102 Registered: 4-2006  |
From the New York Times (via the International Herald Tribune): Israeli aircraft also fired a missile at the new lighthouse in the seafront Manara district near downtown Beirut, the first time this part of the city was struck.There wasn't any point in wasting a very expensive missile on a lighthouse if they didn't see it as a valuable target. This doesn't say explicitly that they saw it as a radar installation, but I think it implies that and makes it a legitimate target. BTW, someone referred to this lighthouse as a tourist spot, but I did a little Googling and this appears to be (as the article above mentions) a new lighthouse that was built for functional purposes near the old lighthouse. The old one may or may not be there anymore, as there was a plan approved a few years ago to remove it: Lighthouse to come down | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3723 Registered: 3-2004 |
No, Larry, it's part of a port area that WAS pleasant, and becoming a tourist area. How do you know the lighthouse they bombed was the old one? I am more concerned about the people being killed than the beautiful parts of the city. I have an old friend whose father taught at the University in Beirut. He and my friend and their family would be alarmed by this attack. It's downright horrible. Israel is not defending itself effectively by bombing everyone. | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 104 Registered: 4-2006 |
No, the lighthouse they bombed was the *new* one, at least according to the NYT story. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3724 Registered: 3-2004 |
Even Condoleeza Rice just said the Administration "hopes that Israel will behave in such a way as to avoid killing innocent people." She says Israel has to realize that there will be a time after all this when Israel will have to interact with moderate factions in order to continue to survive in the Middle East. What does Israel think it can do, end extremism forever in the Middle East by killing them all? It's not defensive action. It's not going to work. Two choices: war, or negotiations: death or engagement in words: which do you choose? Don't answer me. It just shows you have no real ideas anyway, or you're scared of facing the truth that this situation lacks intelligence. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3726 Registered: 3-2004 |
The fact is you are not going to disarm Hezzbollah. ""Routing out" extremists is literally like digging a hole in the sand. You can remove some of the sand, but more will come in to fill the hole. That may not be an elegant metaphor, but I will warrant that we will see that it's absolutely true. Vietnam is a perfect example of a western power trying vainly to rid itself of an "ism" by bombing a "weaker" nation interminably. The domino theory, to rid the world of communism by bombing the North Vietnamese, now looks pretty damn ridiculous. At the same time, we support Israel's tirade against Lebanon to rid the world of another "ism"..."terrorism," with a domino theory about establishing "democracy" (what do they mean by that...capitalism? Christianity? ) that just perpetuates the illusion that by bombing away at any nation, you get what you want. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15334 Registered: 10-2001  |
Israel is now telling residents of Southern Lebanon to leave. Israeli ground troops will be entering the area. Syria is mobilizing their reservists. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 1292 Registered: 2-2004 |
anon, I know. It's one of those odd anomalies found on MOL. Hey, you gotta think local first then national. Seniority is a b$%^&! Besides, two years of Speaker Pelosi would be a freakin hoot and could be just what the Republicans need to ensure a 2008 victory. Remember, in my opinion, 2008 is way more important than 2006. The White House (and by that also the Supreme Court), and Congress is in play so I'd much rather lose in 2006 and win in 2008. Of course, I don't think us neo-cons will lose either. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3727 Registered: 3-2004 |
I agree with you Sbenois. There will be Armegeddon very soon. Nations are taking their positions. We know which side N. Korea will be on. We know that China hasn't stopped North Korea from testing their missiles. Japan won't stand with the US and Israel if all Asian nations are behind China ultimately. We are toast. (I know, you don't think so, but a nuclear or atomic bomb in the Middle East will not be good for the planet. Global warming will be a quaint memory.) | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12163 Registered: 5-2001 |
Wow!! If Sbenois is correct, this is a major change in the plan. Up to now Israel has been saying they were not going to send in ground troops. I guess the Hafia attack last night caused them to change their mind along with Hezbollah's claim that they have missles that can reach Tel Aviv. Oddly, Hezbollah doesn't throw around BS. If they say something you can take it to the bank. Can Armageddon be all that far off? | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15335 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dearest Southerner, How are you doing this fine morning? Did you see my note of praise for Bush's honesty on the situation in the Middle East? I like to praise him when it's deserved. That's important, don't you agree? | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 1295 Registered: 2-2004 |
tulip, I saw you in Times Square yesterday. Nice outfit. I'm kind of tired of cutting grass and going after weeds. I'm ready for the end. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15336 Registered: 10-2001 |
I am correct Bobk. Israeli infantry are heading towards Lebanon. The Haifa attack in which 8 Israelis died pushed this thing over the edge. Al Arabiya is now confirming that Syria has begun mobilizing their reserves. Sure looks like all out war sometime in the next 48 hours. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3728 Registered: 3-2004 |
Sbenois: Congratulations on having an ally with a third grade level of humor. Southerner: No wonder the world is in such a mess. People like you are in charge. So southerner, do you like bombing babies? Do you approve? Your ilk did in the war between the states. Have you moved on since then? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3729 Registered: 3-2004 |
?Note to Condoleeza Rice: Dear Ms. Rice: You want to "disable" extremists, not just make them stand down. OK, what happens when you bomb all their military installations? Do you think they can't build them up again? They know how to build weapons, and you can't eliminate that knowledge. You have no choice but to try to convince extremists that they are wasting their time. You can't do that militarily, because extremists breed other extremists, and hatred adds to the mix. If you keep bombing and attacking, you create more hatred, and new extremists. Are you and Israel going to kill every single human being in the Middle East? Even if you did, new armed forces would arrive to challenge you. Give yourselves a break, stand down, and work on this problem the way Carter, Clinton and other Middle East diplomats did. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2755 Registered: 5-2001 |
Oh and Ms. Rice, while you're at it, give these nice young men back their box cutters. They really mean no harm and didn't mean to kill innocent civilians. We need to work on their hatred; we can start that by disavowing all things Western that they detest. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly. Choices about careers, life paths. You know Ms. Rice. You of all people know how you would be treated over there, a minority and a woman. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3731 Registered: 3-2004 |
Sure, Wendy. It's like George Will just said, "Why put off a war for tomorrow when you can do it today?" (I don't expect an answer of any kind from you, other than some kind of attempted insult.) | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave  Post Number: 10124 Registered: 4-1997  |
I think events can be boiled down to this:
However, that involves going after the very democratic process we have encouraged in Lebanon. It's a mess and there's no easy way out. The Lebanese people have voted for Hizbullah to hold power. Many contradictions to work out, but one would hope current events influence voting in a positive manner. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12164 Registered: 5-2001 |
The Lebanese Army, like everything else in that country is divided along ethnic lines. If the government moves them into the conflict with Hezzbolah there is a real chance that they will break down into "militias" and start fighting each other. Israel is very good at short term solutions. However, the latest news, which isn't on cable TV yet, pretty much puts any peace process back to step one. I understand Israel's need to defend themselves and essentially have buffers. However, as the technology available to Hezbollah increases, the size of the buffer increases. Israel's flanks are protected by being at peace with Jordan and Eqypt, at least for now. Both those countries can control what goes on within their borders. | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2858 Registered: 6-2002 |
Can Armageddon be all that far off? Yup. WW1 was supposed to bring Armageddon. WW11 should certainly have brought it. When I was a kid the Cold War and the Nuclear Arms race were supposed to bring it. In the early 80s there was a made for TV movie, "The Day After" about the destruction of all civilization in a nuclear war. Anyone ever see the movie "On the Beach"? The following is perhaps the truest statement ever made: "And This Too Shall Pass". News reports this AM have Israel negotiating with the Government of Lebanon, and indirectly with Hezbollah through the Italian Prime Minister. Doesn't the Bible advocate turning swords into ploughshares? Not exactly. That's Isaiah predicting what would happen when the Messiah arrived. I believe it's posted in the UN General Assembly meeting hall. Perhaps we must wait for the Messiah ( or if you're Christian, the Second Coming. I'm sure the Muslims believe something similar) Now back to the mundane. Southerner: I agree with you about 2006 and 2008. I think the Dems lose by winning in 2006. If they control either House and definitely if they control both, they share the blame with Bush for whatever goes wrong during those two years. In fact Bush, as President, has greater command of and access to the media than Congress so he can spin every problem as the fault of Congress. If the GOP continues with total control in 2007-2008 then the Dem Presidential candidate campaigns against "the mess in Washington". The best campaign slogan ever is "Throw the bums out". Only other scenario bad for you guys is if the Dems take the House, Pelosi becomes Speaker and Bush and Cheney kick the bucket. Then Nancy is the incumbent Pres in 2008, and with only two years under her belt she can spin off the blame for problems and campaign on "Give the gal a chance". Of course this entire scenario is about as likely as "Armeggedon". Now I return you to the regularly scheduled ranting and raving | ||
| Dr. Condoleezza Rice Citizen Username: Crice Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2006  |
*** Autoreply from the desk of Condoleezza Rice *** Thank you for your recent email. As you know, our staff at the State Department does not have the time to read every incomprehensible email addressed to us due to the volume that we receive from psychopaths like yourself. | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 105 Registered: 4-2006 |
Dave, It's not really the point that Hezbollah was elected (or that Hamas was elected). The point is that they have committed a violent aggression against a neighbor. And, by the way, Hezbollah's operation in the south is in direct violation of a UN Security Council resolution. Perhaps this should settle the matter that everyone favors those Security Council resolutions that support their position and opposes the others, but it also means that by any reasonable definition Lebanon and Hezbollah flagrantly violated international law. From an Israeli point of view they can't rely on the UN to redress the situation and now they have to take Hezbollah out. If the Lebanese people get in the way that's a shame, but they were the ones who elected this government that allowed the situation to develop this way. And as far as I know, the Lebanese government has not even condemned the Hezbollah attack or their rocket firings, all they have said is that they can't stop them. That doesn't draw a lot of sympathy from me. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3738 Registered: 3-2004 |
If the Lebanese people get in the way that's a shame, but they were the ones who elected this government that allowed the situa Pure and utter bigotry. Lebanese lives mean nothing to Larry. If you're Lebanese and you're in Larry's way, better watch out. He thinks killing you is AOK. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10125 Registered: 4-1997 |
What, if any, parallels do folks here see between Lebanon/Hizzbulah and Afghanistan/Al Qaida? | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15338 Registered: 10-2001 |
Bush has shown himself to be a decisive leader in both cases. Thank you Mr. President. | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1868 Registered: 5-2001 |
Deciveness is not a policy or an indication of effectiveness. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1025 Registered: 4-2006 |
mustt_ mustt- Chechnya ( please excuse my earlier spelling ) was not roundly condemned as Israel has been here and in the past, the UN did not meet or hear calls for action condemning Russia, and the Russians basically shot away at whatever they wanted on the theory that hey,the Chechens are all terrorists anyway. Do you think more resolutions have been passed about Israel than Darfur? Your points about the occidental and oriental minds are gobbly-gook. Do you need a reading list? Muslim fundamentalism of the jihadi and wahabi strips are leading this "clash of civilizations" in Palestine and Iraq. I don't see Pat Robertson shooting missles into Canada, so I kind of think its a "muslim thang" at the moment. www.jihadwatch.org | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1026 Registered: 4-2006 |
Bush has been magnificent. Glad I voted for him last election. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5626 Registered: 10-1999  |
 Guess we now know the answer to this question-   | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3749 Registered: 3-2004 |
Obviously, Bush has already gained a few votes for Repubs, in Maplewood through his current "Go get 'em" stance toward Israel. I thought he didn't like his own cowboy diplomacy. Now, it seems, he likes others to do it for him. | ||
| Mustt_mustt Citizen Username: Mustt_mustt Post Number: 609 Registered: 8-2003 |
Factvsfiction By the same token,even Kashmir has been off the UN burner because India did not want third parties to negotiate a peace deal between Pak and India depsite the fact that tens of thousands of people have perished in the last two decades. The US has always stuck to the position that Kashmir is a bilateral matter between both nations. Pak wants the US to intervene but India doesn't. None cared about the plight of the Chechnyans who always had a federal republic under old structure. Their struggle for seccession was opposed by the Russians who declared the Chechnya was a part of Russia. The UN and the rest of the European powers have treated it as an internal Russian matter and only raised their voices now and then when Russia's response was perceived as eggregious. Both, the Kashmir and Chehnyan problem are political problems just as the Palestinian issue but it's only the last one that receives the max attention because of the creation of Israel under controversial circumstances under the UN charter. Hence Israeli actions garner more attention than the others. I want the UN to play a more instrumental role in resolving the issues but that can happen only when powerful nations have the political will to do get involved. No, I do not need a reading list but looks like you need one to understand a term that you used wither wittingly or otherwise - "oriental thought process." Now that is Orientalist thinking on your part when you claim to know about Muslisms, Arabs and the like. The term oriental is no longer is use among educated people and even Washington has banned it in official discourse. If you need to enlighten yourself, I'd be more than happy to give you a reading list but for now wikipedia will suffice for you. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10127 Registered: 4-1997 |
I think Israel had no choice but to "go get'em" and Israel's military response was 100% justified. The big question, IMO, is about proportionality (a subjective area of course). However as Lebanon's leadership seems to either be unable to control Hizbullah forces and unable to apoplogize for allegedly rogue Hizbullah actions and offer assistance in curtailing rocket launches in to Israel, the answer is becoming more clear that Hizbullah is akin to Al Qaida and Lebanon's leadership is akin to the Taliban. That gives Israel few options. And I think Chechnya and Kashmir should be separate topics. | ||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3677 Registered: 5-2001  |
Thank you, Dave. Your 5:04 pm post and especially your 8:10pm post last night are right on. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 1296 Registered: 2-2004 |
anon, I'll never admit this but part of me will be politically happy if the Dems take either Chamber this November. Number one, it would lead to some great political smack and some fun moments between Bush and this crew, which in turn would create an interesting MOL board which has been consistently boring since the Swiftboaters took out Kerry. Secondly, you are right on. It gives the Repubs that something to run against in 2008. My biggest worry is that we maintain control by a few seats in each chamber (which is what I think is going to happen), and then the economy heads south in the next year and half. The Dems could be swept back into power in both the Legislative and Executive branches in one fell swoop which from where I sit would be a total disaster for the children of this country (some over the top liberal verbage!). As for this crisis, or world war, or whatever it is, this will continue on it's current level and then die down. Assad isn't dumb enough to lose power over Lebanon. Israel is waiting for him to act and are looking for every excuse to go after him. I wish they would, but they are showing some great restraint. But if he is foolish enough to enter the fray "officially" then he won't be around much longer and he knows it. As he would say, "My daddy didn't raise no dummy!". | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3750 Registered: 3-2004 |
Well, Israel will be painting itself into a corner. Israel is the Goliath who thinks he's the victim. Cowboy diplomacy, your call. I still think you are dead wrong. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15343 Registered: 10-2001 |
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| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2865 Registered: 6-2002 |
I'll never admit this but part of me will be politically happy if the Dems take either Chamber this November. You just admitted it. So FvF, you voted for Bush. So did Newt Gingrich. I just watched him on Meet the Press. He was extremely critical of GWB on Korea and Iran. |
