| Author | Message | ||
     anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2866 Registered: 6-2002 |
There is no one in the leadership of either the Republican or Democratic Parties who is not at this point totally supportive of Israel. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3751 Registered: 3-2004  |
Hey, it's not doing great things for the economy is it? He who lives by the sword... But how really vile to reduce this to dollars. You point out the sad truth, if it were costly to Wall Street, it wouldn't continue. I'll tell you what makes ME want to vomit, Netanyahu slick, oily voice mumbling that "Israel has to defend itself" by killing babies. This is the most disgusting, vile, miserable thing Israel has ever done. Somehow, Israeli blood is so much more valuable than everyone else's. This makes lots of people totally disgusted. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1027 Registered: 4-2006 |
Nohero- I understand one must show their impeccable credentials for thinking the "right" way here for one's posts to have even the slightest chance of being respected by the self-styled MOL thought police cognoscenti. That means you support EVERY democrat and democratic positions, ALL the time, endlessly. I say: bu##s$%&# to that. I voted for Gore the last time but the war being waged on this country caused me to rethink my position and vote for Bush over Kerry. Bush's other policies or ideas not necessarily being to my liking. BTW, I have voted for more dems than I have repubs, but as I watch the party taken over by mindless progressive drones who can only be against everything and offer nothing, especially when it comes to our national security and enemies who perceive their defeatist positions as a reason to fight on against Americans. I believe Lieberman shows the right mix of views, and to my mind is better than Bush on points I would have wanted from Bush, if the election was not based on the aftermath of 9-11 and the terror threat. Our national security takes priority at the moment. Instead of trying to make people like myself defend their political choices and opinions why don't you my liberal, left, progressive buddy, explain to me how your political leaders will solve the terror threat facing this country? I am waiting.... | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave  Post Number: 10130 Registered: 4-1997  |
Maybe he'll start flip-flopping like you?  | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3754 Registered: 3-2004 |
Right, Dave, now that your blood's boiling about Israel, maybe you'll say something positive about vigilante behavior in the US> | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5628 Registered: 10-1999  |
I don't think that blowing everything up will solve the terror threat. I'm pretty sure that the Iraq adventure was a detour, that did not address the long-term terror threat. Last week the Lebanese Government was our friend, since they arrested a guy who was supposed to be part of a plot to bomb the PATH trains. I think that it's reasonable to discuss whether bombing Beirut this week, is the best way to get the Lebanese government to help out against the terrorists bombing Israel. But, that doesn't seem to be a discussion that people want to have. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10131 Registered: 4-1997 |
I'm pretty certain it's not my blood that's boiling. Except for when I step outside, that is. I'm also on record questioning the disproportionality of Israel's response. But in Tulip's black and white world, these things don't factor. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1028 Registered: 4-2006 |
mustt-mustt- Well it is nice to see you are reading things on the internet. But wikipedia does not a scholar make. Bernard Lewis is a nice start for reading about the vagaries of arab history and the cyclical nature of arab radicalism. When you are referring to " orientalism" being dismissed you are basing it on Said's book attacking Patai's seminal book on the subject of arab thinking and culture. It has not,in fact, been dismissed as irrelevant conceptually, or otherwise, and is still being used as reference in a number of private and public settings in terms of the modern arab world. Of course, it is like a number of academic or psychological works, not viewed as being "politically correct". www.meforum.org/article/636 | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3756 Registered: 3-2004 |
DAVE: Yes, I thought you were. But then you said: I think Israel had no choice but to "go get'em" and Israel's military response was 100% justified. The big question, IMO, is about proportionality (a subjective area of course). However as Lebanon's leadership seems to either be unable to control Hizbullah forces and unable to apoplogize for allegedly rogue Hizbullah actions and offer assistance in curtailing rocket launches in to Israel, the answer is becoming more clear that Hizbullah is akin to Al Qaida and Lebanon's leadership is akin to the Taliban. That gives Israel few options. So what do you really think? (And why should the PM of Lebanon apologize for a condition about which he knew nothing? Just what do you expect from him, anyway?) | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1029 Registered: 4-2006 |
Nohero- still waiting.... mustt_ mustt- Also try and and read bat yaor's book too.  Is tulip Mrs. Abbas? Just wondering.... | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3757 Registered: 3-2004 |
Oh, I see you state your concern is for proportionality, right? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12165 Registered: 5-2001 |
In nightime raids Israel revisited the Beirut airport and took out the fuel storage facilities. They also took out the port at Tyree. The Canadian government announced the death of eight of their citizens, although details weren't given. The French are sending a ship from Cyprus to evacuate their citizens and other EU citizens. It is unclear if it will be allowed through the Israeli blockade. The US flew in four helicopters today and evacuated some seriously ill citizens and left an assessment team to plan for evacuations. I wonder where the 'copters came from? Do we have a Carrier Battle Group in the Med? Should be interesting tommorrow. | ||
| gertie Citizen Username: Gertie Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2006 |
Tulip: do you think Hezzbolla are valiant freedom fighters? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3758 Registered: 3-2004 |
No, gertie, but I think Israel is not acting in its own self-interest right now, and not acting with care. After everything that has happened since 9/11, I am beginning to feel that the Muslim world must feel enormously scapegoated, and innocent people have died in the thousands. I think I understand their outrage. Can't you? Would you like to be blamed unto death for something someone else in your country, your religion, or your neighborhood did? | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5629 Registered: 10-1999 |
FvF - I did answer you. If you want another suggestion - avoid reading those websites that you keep wanting us to read. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10132 Registered: 4-1997 |
Allow me to clarify. I think Israel had no choice but to "go get'em" and Israel's military response was 100% justified. The big question, IMO, is about proportionality (a subjective area of course). However as Lebanon's leadership seems to either be unable to control Hizbullah forces and unable to apoplogize for allegedly rogue Hizbullah actions and offer assistance in curtailing rocket launches in to Israel, the answer is becoming more clear that Hizbullah is akin to Al Qaida and Lebanon's leadership is akin to the Taliban. That gives Israel few options. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3759 Registered: 3-2004 |
It would seem "go get 'em" implies major proportionality, but that's just my take on it. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12166 Registered: 5-2001 |
Here is a blurp about Lebanon's form of government. If Israel had this form of goverment 25% of the ministers would have to be Muslims with an odd Christian or Druize thrown in. | ||
| Illuminated Radish Citizen Username: Umoja Post Number: 30 Registered: 6-2006 |
And are we forgetting that Lebanon is being invaded? The entire validity of their government is being called into question. The Lebanese have kept peace for close to 20 years (16 years right?), they've established a democratic government, and have generally (more then most countries in the region) tried to keep peace with Israel. It's worth noting that a large portion of Lebanon's population is Christian, and it is far from being an Islamic state. So why couldn't Israel at least consult with the Lebanese before starting a ground invasion? How are the Lebanese expected to elect a moderate government next election? How can Lebanon even have lukewarm feelings to Israel when they are being told to evacuate their homes? If you ask me, you can't mess with two things people have: food, and land. Now I know they aren't starving, but they sure as shoot are being told to leave their land. How can their country co-exist with Israel after that? | ||
| Larry Seltzer Citizen Username: Elvis Post Number: 106 Registered: 4-2006  |
Radish, Your history and analysis of Lebanon are pretty far off. You make it sound like everything was fine between Israel and Lebanon before this. There's a long history of attacks against Israel from Lebanon, and the last one the Lebanese government officially approved was in 1948. They've spent a lot of the time since 1975 with a weak or non-existant government, and with enemies of Israel operating in the south, using it as a base of operations against Israel. BTW, Israel has not started a ground invasion. And if the Lebanese want to put an end to the crisis, all they have to do is return the kidnapped soldiers and stop firing rockets at Israel. Only with Israel are such conditions considered unreasonable. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3767 Registered: 3-2004 |
Israel has chosen to make its youth serve as soldiers. Soldiers often have to fight wars, and as such, may end up being kidnapped. The belligerence that makes Israel force its youth into soldierhood, is the beliigerence that forces its weaker neighbors to rise up against Israel. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10134 Registered: 4-1997 |
So Tulip thinks it's fine for Lebanon to continue firing rockets and holding its captive even though stopping the aggression it began and releasing the captive could save lives. sure, makes sense. | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1908 Registered: 12-2003  |
Point of order: The "deafening silence" is up to 302 posts. Err, 303. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3768 Registered: 3-2004 |
Where in God's world did I say that? As moderator, you should be reading carefully. I never said what you just accused me of saying and you should retract that statement. I said, when you are at war, and you have your youth serve as soldiers, almost without exception, kidnapping can happen. I don't think it's right. Of course Hezbollah (not Lebanon...can you get that there's a difference yet?) should give back the soldiers. There are three captive soldiers, aren't there? Yes, they should give them back, and stop firing on Israel, and Israelis should be allowed to live and prosper and live anywhere they like... | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 716 Registered: 1-2006 |
The book entitled The Deafening Silence, by Meador, is about the deafening silence which greeted Europe's Jews who pleaded the U.S. and U.S. Jewish organizations for help before and during WWII. jd | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3769 Registered: 3-2004 |
I was trying to make the point that the sudden scorched earth policy into Lebanon by Israel is far more shocking to all of us than the kidnapping of soldiers. Soldiers, when they put on the uniform, imply that they know they might encounter violence, including kidnapping. It doesn't excuse the kidnapping. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10135 Registered: 4-1997 |
EDITED:
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| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3770 Registered: 3-2004 |
Bush has been saying "two soldiers were kidnapped" all day. Is he wrong? Dave, Have the newspapers been writing that they were kidnapped by Lebanon, or by Hezbollah? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10136 Registered: 4-1997 |
See edit above. 2 kidnapped, 3 killed. | ||
| Illuminated Radish Citizen Username: Umoja Post Number: 32 Registered: 6-2006 |
Larry: "Your history and analysis of Lebanon are pretty far off. You make it sound like everything was fine between Israel and Lebanon before this. There's a long history of attacks against Israel from Lebanon, and the last one the Lebanese government officially approved was in 1948. They've spent a lot of the time since 1975 with a weak or non-existant government, and with enemies of Israel operating in the south, using it as a base of operations against Israel. BTW, Israel has not started a ground invasion. And if the Lebanese want to put an end to the crisis, all they have to do is return the kidnapped soldiers and stop firing rockets at Israel. " No, there isn't a long history of attacks of Lebanon against Israel. Incase you didn't know, Palestinian insurgents in Southern Lebanon were attacking Israel in the 70's and 80's, not the Lebanese government (if you could even consider the various warring factions a stable government). Infact, do you know what the Palestinian insurgents were doing during the civil war.... Launching rockets into Israel! Sound familiar? I'm not saying Lebanon has always been peaceful, but at least during the Civil War Israel moving troops in was justified, after all Lebanon couldn't keep itself stable enough to stop the problem themselves. Lebanon has been at peace for well over a decade, it has a stable government now. Is it all that ridiculous for Israel to.... I don't know, ASK for help from a government that isn't dominated by Islamic millitants? Also, incase you've been asleep at the wheel LEBANON ISN'T FIRING MISSLES. Terrorist in Lebanon are firing missles. This is a massive difference, which you won't ever seen to understand. The Lebanese government can't turn over a rock, and reveal missing soldiers. They can't say "Hey we're sorry we passed this 'capture Israeli soldiers resolution'!" It doesn't work like that, Hezbollah operates within the government to a lesser extent, but they gain their strength from operating outside the government. Maybe if Israel had worked with Lebanon instead of shooting some rockets of their own, this situation could have been solved much more peacefully. The issue in Lebanon is moving beyond Islamic millitancy, and really is moving towards Arab-Israeli conflict. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3771 Registered: 3-2004 |
That's Hezbollah, not Lebanon. The problem here, Dave, is that the Lebanese Prime Minister is not particularly able to manipulate Hezbollah, rather as Bush cannot influence the right-wing factions or left-wing factions of our society. Sometimes, a leader (especially one of the first "democratic" leaders of a new democracy) can have difficulty actually creating behaviors in his citizenry. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10137 Registered: 4-1997 |
Sucks for Lebanon to be harboring terror groups, I guess. Maybe they can work out something internally whereby they join the war on terror and avoid getting obliterated. Afghanistan had the same choice. Now the Taliban is eating rice and beans in Cuba. And last I checked, Bush can control groups within the US from launching missiles at other nations. Nation states need to be held accountable for the behavior of groups within their borders, particularly when those groups are launching rockets at people. | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2759 Registered: 5-2001 |
 I vote that the best response yet. Last I checked...... ha! Oh Dave, reading that pesky right-wing WSJ again for your facts? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 717 Registered: 1-2006 |
Maybe they might start by controlling their borders, and stopping more thousands of missiles from coming in from Syria. Perhaps they are complicit. That is the only explanation which makes sense to me. They claim they have no power to stop a Muslim group, but never asked for help from the umma. We dhimmi should pay attention. jd | ||
| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2760 Registered: 5-2001 |
Sane, rational tulip: You have a point Dave. My arguments have been somewhat specious because I'm sort of a left-wing pacifist except for totally understanding the plight of the poor, uneducated Palestinians. Irrational tulip: Dave, that is not what I meant. Israel is the strongest nation in the middle east. It should be using solely diplomacy to get peace. If that doesn't work, then perhaps Israel should fold up and go home to Brooklyn. Besides, no other country forces its youth into the army. That is the sign of a predatory, hawkish regime if I ever saw one. Any bets on further responses? Actually the odds are too great in one direction. I can't bankroll that. Sorry. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3772 Registered: 3-2004 |
Wendy: You are tired. Get some sleep. It's not about me. It's about irrational acts of Israel. They are increasing their bombing and it is wrong. Admit it. You'll feel better. You are a nationalist. I understand. But you are making a mistake in supporting a country that it committing war crimes. You know it. Israel is getting some mighty bad press right now, and alienating everyone. If I were you, I'd call my friends in Israel and tell them to back off. They are not going to eliminate their enemies this way, they are just going to make more enemies. You don't flatter yourself by being nasty, either. Were you NAILZ, by the way? OR perhaps you were SLK? You like that word "specious" don't you? You heard it from someone on MOL and are running with it. You know what's specious? Your nasty, uninformed spewing. You must have learned the word "spewing" from someone you have lived with, because that's what you do. You spew nasty crud. Go to a party with your friends or go to bed, and let me discuss this thing with people who have a brain. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15344 Registered: 10-2001  |
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| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3773 Registered: 3-2004 |
Sbenois, If you had listened to me about global warming, you would have saved yourself some embarassment. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15345 Registered: 10-2001 |
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| Wendy Supporter Username: Wendy Post Number: 2761 Registered: 5-2001 |
Yes very lame. tulip attacked Wendy and did not respond to any of Dave's cogent points - which was my point which of course she just doesn't get. Not just very lame but as Joel said, thar she blows. I just hope to God she is not representative of the majority of the human race. Otherwise, she's right. Armageddon is indeed near. |
