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J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2575
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 11:23 am: | 
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I forwarded my friend, Ana, in Lebanon, an article wondering what Israel's plan was, exactly, and questioning various assumptions about what it can and cannot hope to achieve. One issue it mentioned was the possibility that, in response to the Israeli assault, Lebanese society would rally round Hizballah as it has done in the past.
Ana, an expat Spaniard who married a Lebanese architect, used to be among those who considered Hizballah the great defender of Lebanon. When I urged her to get out of Beirut and take her family to Spain a few years ago (the last time Hizballah captured IDF soldiers, and the UN pretended its observers didn't see it happen, and concealed the fact that it had videotapes of the aftermath), she confidently told me that Israel "wouldn't dare" attack Lebanon again.
Her opinion has modified since then, and so, apparently, have others'. Her response to the article I sent her, which included this assertion "4. ... Forced to choose between Israel and Hezbollah, the majority of Lebanese, including substantial numbers of Christians and Sunnis, would pick Hezbollah," was:
Sharp. But I'm not sure about point #4. My reading here is everyone is furious with Hizzy. Only the older people may follow the path he mentions...
Ana & her family had just relocated to Achrafiye, an Orthodox Xtian enclave in Beirut, as her own Beirut neighborhood had gotten too dangerous to stay in. But then...
Me: Just saw a clam that a Christian area of Beirut is taking hits now. Are you guys OK?
Ana: Just next 2 my hairdresser 2day. I was meant 2 go do ze roots..
But they blew a geotechnical investigation [for oil drilling] truck. They look amazingly close to launchers...
What is nearly incredible is that not even a window was broken...Obviously they can be very gingerly when needed.
Xx, a
Drive to Latakiye tomorrow at 6am, the small plane to Bodrum, where I’ll wait for Nabil to finish tiying loose ends before going to Barcelona...
Ana wrote earlier that all but one road out of the country has been shut down. FYI, Latakiye is in northern Syria--Bashar's summer palace, the one the IAF buzzed to get his attention re sheltering Khaled Meshal, is located there.
Bodrum is in Turkey.
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J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2576
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 11:27 am: |
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I've heard nothing from my relatives in Israel since a few days ago. Asssuming that's good news. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3600
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 11:31 am: |
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Where in Israel are they, IIMA? |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1491
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 11:52 am: |
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The problem is, Rastro...that Israel is NOT just attacking hamas and hezbollah. They are out there cutting the lebanese infrastructure apart that innocent, normal people need to use on a daily basis. Addtionally, the civilian body count is ticking up as we speak.
And then what? Israel either gets or doesnt gets what it wants, totals the country, and leaves. You've now left the country in shambles and originally neutral lebanese citizens are now enraged and have Hezbollah to take them under their wing. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3601
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 12:04 pm: |
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Where did I state or imply that Israel was only attacking Hamas and Hezbollah? I have stated that I am not thrilled with the way Israel is prosecuting this action, but the reality is that you cannot have it both ways. If you support Hamas, then you are going to pay the price for supporting a terrorist organization. Same for Hezbollah. The people need to reject the terrorists, or understand that they will have to deal with the consequences of not doing so. Voting them in as your representatives is not qhat I would call rejecting violence as a solution. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1492
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 12:11 pm: |
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"If Hamas and Hezbollah stopped their attacks and disbanded their militant wings, there would be no reason for Israel to attack them."
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Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3602
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 12:14 pm: |
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And? |
Scully
Citizen
Username: Scully
Post Number: 786
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 12:14 pm: |
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Yes!!! Yes!!! Yes!!!
Glock! We have reached total agreement! NOW I can go to bed happy (gotta go into work two hours early tonight)
All I want is world peace. Is that asking too much? |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3603
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 12:18 pm: |
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Scully, sorry to disappoint, but Glock was trying to use that quote from me to say that I said Israel was only attacking Hamas and Hezbollah. |
J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2577
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 2:31 pm: |
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Rastro,
I have family in Jerusalem, cousins in and around Tel Aviv, friends in Ra'anana. One of my cousins had her husband's family from the States visiting and they were vacationing up in the Galilee when all this started. A phone message from my aunt reported they were trying to make their way to J'lem. That was the last I heard, but I figure if they hadn't made it we'd have heard something from someone else.
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J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2578
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 2:41 pm: |
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"Hezbollah isn''t really part of the lebanese population. I dislike the way that is written. They come from all over and just choose to hide in Lebanon."
Glock, Lebanon is not Iraq and Hizballah do not come from "all over"--or from anywhere other than Lebanon for that matter. They are Shias native to Lebanon and have been passsionately supported, both as a political party and as a militia, by their fellow Shiites in Lebanon, who elected them to office in the nation's government. It is now chiefly those supporters, located mainly in the south of the country, who are finding themselves in harm's way.
Even a pacifist aid worker said on the radio today (the BBC was reporting from a demonstration) that Sunnis and Christians are mostly being spared.
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Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1106
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 5:09 pm: |
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Thank all of you for your support of Israel.
I e-mailed people today, and it makes them feel good they are not alone.
todah rabah. |
Slim Jim
Citizen
Username: Arrakis
Post Number: 30
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 5:50 pm: |
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Israel is usually the largest US foreign aid recipient. We all support Israel. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1113
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 6:05 pm: |
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Slim Jim-
The question is then whether you get value or not.I think you do. |
Larry Seltzer
Citizen
Username: Elvis
Post Number: 114
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 9:04 pm: |
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I think there were maybe 250-300 people there. Here's a (cell phone camera) picture of Governor Corzine speaking, but it's hard to pick him out.
 |
Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3710
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 9:17 pm: |
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I was a little closer (What did we do before cell phone cameras?)
His speech was terrific. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1504
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 9:24 pm: |
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http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/
 |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1505
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 9:25 pm: |
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Ridiculous. This should not have been held in a public park, and it should not have closed off public streets. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1506
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 9:29 pm: |
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How could i forget these
 |
FlyingSpaghettiMonst
Citizen
Username: Noodlyappendage
Post Number: 208
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 9:40 pm: |
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http://www.israelnewsagency.com/islamicwar.html 
Wanna continue? |
FlyingSpaghettiMonst
Citizen
Username: Noodlyappendage
Post Number: 209
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 9:43 pm: |
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Some more???
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/hebronterror.html |
FlyingSpaghettiMonst
Citizen
Username: Noodlyappendage
Post Number: 210
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 9:49 pm: |
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Last one (there are plenty more but you get the idea.)
The mutilated bodies of murdered Israel men, women and children, who minutes earlier were celebrating a Passover dinner, lay lined up outside the Park Hotel in Netanya |
MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 4448
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 9:54 pm: |
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Hey Glock,
Where was your "picket" tonight? All I saw were several hundred residents of all religions and colors coming together unified in total support of Israel. It made me incredibly proud. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1507
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 9:56 pm: |
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The difference is that those are the results of guerilla attacks. The Israeli military is an organized official fighting force and should therefore act like one. |
sbenois
Supporter
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15382
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 9:59 pm: |
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Here's a good one...
 |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1509
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:02 pm: |
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I decided it wasn't worth my time to try and change the mind of a handful of close-minded zealots rallying support for a militaristic 'bully' of a nation.
And what does the crowd being of all races and backgrounds have to do with anything?? |
Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3712
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:03 pm: |
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Sbenois, was that taken after they found out about the attack on WTC and the murder of 3000 Americans and citizens of many other countries? |
sbenois
Supporter
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15383
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:05 pm: |
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***********************WINNER*********************************
***********************WINNER*********************************
***********************WINNER********************************* |
Larry Seltzer
Citizen
Username: Elvis
Post Number: 115
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:06 pm: |
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Corzine's speech was short but good. Fred Profeta's speech was also excellent. Calabrese.... well... Cody was OK.
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MHD
Citizen
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 4450
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:08 pm: |
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Larry - LOL!!! I agree. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1514
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:14 pm: |
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Yeah. Too bad our government is responsible for 9/11 |
Larry Seltzer
Citizen
Username: Elvis
Post Number: 116
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:16 pm: |
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Palestinian Kids at Play:
See the full slideshow |
Wendy
Supporter
Username: Wendy
Post Number: 2796
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:19 pm: |
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From Glock
Quote:Yeah. Too bad our government is responsible for 9/11
Glock, how about explaining that comment? Perhaps in a paragraph or two instead of the nonsensical sound bites you've been coming up with. If you don't or can't, god speed to your maturity and/or finding your senses. Also sayonara to any crumb of credibility you still have on this message board. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1516
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:23 pm: |
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Well if my land was STOLEN from me Id be pretty mad and hateful too. |
Wendy
Supporter
Username: Wendy
Post Number: 2797
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:40 pm: |
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Thanks for the illogical, nonsensical, uneducated sound bite. Sayonara to anything else you say on MOL. Oh and every time you post something, I will be sure to follow it with these wonderfully thought out posts, little man. I have a special word file just for you. Fortunately it isn't straining my computer's small memory. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1518
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 10:55 pm: |
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Congrats! You are now officially an internet stalker!
"Little man"? hah
Whatever you say, Wendy.
I can't be bothered with you anymore tonight. going out. PEACE MOL |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4527
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 7:32 am: |
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"Well if my land was STOLEN from me Id be pretty mad and hateful too."
Glock,
Hizbollah did not suffer the loss of any land. Hizbollah is not attacking Israel on behalf of Palestinians although that might be the rallying cause. Hizbollah is engaged in a power play designed to put Iran on the map as a Middle East powerbroker. And Hizbollah has domestic considerations such as increasing pressure from other Lebanese power groups for Hizbollah to disarm.
You know that if the Arab world really cared about the Palestinians, they would have used more of their oil money to help them. But Arabs - and they are not the only people to do this - care for their fellow Arabs in the sense that an abusive big brother cares for his siblings. The big brother will abuse his siblings but will also take great offense if an outsider abuses his siblings. |
Nuff Sayid
Citizen
Username: Parkingsux
Post Number: 446
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 9:12 am: |
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I stand with Israel and all the free world to repel ignorance, hatred and terrorism.  |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3607
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 9:51 am: |
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Glock, as I've said several times, you simply do not understand what is going on over there. It is not about land "stolen" from one group or another. As tjohn has pointed out, Hezbollah is not fighting for land. They are fighting for the destruction of Israel, as they have always said they would.
As for the Palestinians and Hamas, when you elect a terrorist organization to represent you, it is tough to claim the moral high ground. |
kathleen
Citizen
Username: Symbolic
Post Number: 580
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 10:08 am: |
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Do you really want to repel ignorance on this issue? I was doing my usual morning internet browse of the news this morning, and came across this interview.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/17/1423257
The paragraph that jumped out at me was a response given by Chris Hedges, the author of War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning, and a longtime reporter in the Middle East:
CHRIS HEDGES: "Well, I certainly did not mean to imply in any way that, you know, there we should ascribe equal amounts of moral blame to each side. Israel is clearly to blame here, both in terms of what is happening in Gaza and what is now happening in Lebanon. On the other hand, this has been a long process of severe repression in Gaza and the West Bank, a kind of Africanization of the Palestinian people, reducing them to subsistence level. Gaza has become virtually a giant walled prison for 1.1 million Palestinians, and that kind of abuse, that kind of repression, in the absence of international condemnation and in the absence of any attempt on the part of the United States to intervene and create a more humane situation for the Palestinian, breeds extremism. It breeds an extremist response. And these groups attempt to give back to the oppressor, albeit on a much smaller scale, what the oppressor has been meting out to them for years and years and years.
"And so, while I sympathize with the argument that was just made, I do believe that this unchecked response on the part of Israel has fueled a movement where we now have two apocalyptic groups on either side essentially speaking in the language of violence, with large numbers of innocent people caught in the middle. And this is a tragedy that I think was a long time coming. I certainly do blame -- I lay the fault of this at the feet of the Israelis.
"And just as I think that Israel had a large hand in creating Hezbollah after the invasion of Lebanon, it had a very large hand in creating Hamas. When I first went to Gaza in 1988, Hamas was a very marginal force. Fatah had almost complete control of the sympathy of the populace and certainly the power structure.
"So, while I don't in any way want to let Israel off the hook, I think what we have done, and essentially by our negligence, is -- and by standing aside -- and I’m speaking, of course, of the United States -- is empowered these extremist forces, and we now have a kind of Ahab-like self-immolation that is taking place in the Middle East, and there seems to be no outside power, certainly not coming from the Bush administration or Washington, willing to step in and speak with any kind of reason or sanity."
In my own view, the willingness to recognize that there has been loss of innocent Israeli life hasn't been met by the recognition that there has been loss of innocent Palestinian life. And there is a deliberate attempt to create the impression that there is no such thing as "innocent" Palestian life (and now Lebanese life, too). It appears only private individuals in America are going to speak to this or try to rectify it, but I am (dimly) heartened that at least some are. That's why despite the obvious ugliness of a lot of these threds, they do provide a forum for bringing people face to face with more of the dreadful consequences of misinformed American policy in the region.
For several generations now both Israeli and Palestinian youth have been lured to a life of militancy and brutalizing violence, to a degree that would not be tolerated by parents here at home in the United States. It's not clear what people who take one side are "rallying" for -- a continuation of this?
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Nuff Sayid
Citizen
Username: Parkingsux
Post Number: 447
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 10:16 am: |
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Anyone have bug spray, she's covered in crap... |
Josh Holtz
Citizen
Username: Jholtz
Post Number: 543
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 10:25 am: |
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Glock: Please get a feel for the history of that part of the world before posting. Land stolen? From whom? And what land are you talking about?
Your lack of knowledge on the Middle East and its peoples is undeniably evident - therefore your anti-semetic rhetoric carries no weight. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3610
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 10:40 am: |
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I don't see Glock as being Anti-Semitic, only ignorant. The question is, when faced with one's own ignorance, does the person learn, or continue to rail about things they know little about?
Here's a hint. A message board like this (or Yahoo's boards) is not the place to learn about the history of the Middle East. In fact, I'd say the Internet as a whole is not the best place to learn about such a divisive topic. |
mlj
Citizen
Username: Mlj
Post Number: 334
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 10:43 am: |
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this is from Wednesday
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/18/dobbs.july19/index.html
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Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3612
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 10:51 am: |
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While I agree with the first few paragraphs of the article, when it steers toward comparing the Iraq war to this conflict, they lose me. There is no comparison.
And the ships coming into Lebanon are there to pick up foreign nationals, not to bring Lebanese people away from their homes (being destroyed by Israel). |
Nuff Sayid
Citizen
Username: Parkingsux
Post Number: 448
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 12:17 pm: |
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the comparison is real, to think otherwise is to be a fool .... |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3614
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 4:25 pm: |
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How is it real? They compare foreign ships coming into Lebanon to pick up foreign nationals, to the idea of picking up Iraqis, from Iraq, and bringing them someplace else.
A more apt comparison would be if the ships were bringing Lebanese nationals away from Lebanon.
To think Iraqis in Iraq are the same as foreign nationals in Lebanon is just plain... well, some of us don't need to resort to personal attacks. |
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