| Author | Message | ||
     sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15368 Registered: 10-2001  |
400 posts. Not bad. | ||
| Nancy - LibraryLady Supporter Username: Librarylady Post Number: 3699 Registered: 5-2001  |
I neglected to post that the rally is being sponsored by the CRC of Metrowest. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 647 Registered: 2-2003 |
Sbenois -- As I mentioned, I was presenting a "simplified outline." Your points are factually correct and can of course be added to what I wrote, without changing its point. Many other actions could also be listed, but I think what I've written stands as a bare-bones summary of the rationales and results of the US Government invasion and occupation of Iraq and the Israeli Government military assaults on Gaza and Lebanon. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3596 Registered: 5-2001  |
You're quite right, Paul. Thanks. In a summary that is one more increment complex, you might mention that the country had been assured that the entire Iraq scenario would cost no more than about $100 billion at the very most. Where is the accountability? (Also, try not to get irritated if you are now branded an anti-Semite by some here.) Now we have more developments in Israel & Lebanon. Israeli troops have crossed the border. Meanwhile, there are 25,000 Americans in Lebanon. Certainly not all of them are in immediate danger, but the State Department's efforts to evacuate those who are has been terribly weak. The first large group won't even be out until sometime tomorrow. It's not as if this violence was a complete surprise. And, truly, it should never come as a complete surprise when violence breaks out in this corner of the world. article | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3597 Registered: 5-2001 |
On the issue of evacuating Americans, one question is: what responsibility should Americans have for saving themselves? Interesting question, although it is worth noting that both France and Italy have evacuated quite a lot more of their citizens than we have, so far. CNN correspondent Tom Foreman presented a couple of points he's heard from both sides on CNN.com: 1) They knew they were living in a dicey area to begin with. Yes, Lebanon has shown significant progress toward being a more peaceful, stable country in recent years, but the southern end of the nation is and has been essentially in the control of an internationally recognized terrorist group, Hezbollah. When you move to or visit such a place, these critics say, you are willingly putting yourself at some degree of risk and that's your burden ... no one else's. 2) This conflict, while fast-moving, has been intensifying for days. These "stranded" Americans should have got out while the getting was good. On the other side, there are those who make their own strong points. 1) This conflict hasn't just been fast moving; it has developed at a lightning pace, going from a dispute over a pair of kidnappings into what resembles all out war in less than a week. It is unfair, they argue, for American civilians to be expected to foresee how bad it would get so quickly. 2) We encourage Americans to invest in foreign nations, to help spread the ideals of democracy, freedom and respect for human rights all over the globe. We can't then turn around and say, "Now, you're on your own," when times get tough. In addition, if people start fearing a big bill is going to land in their mailbox after an evacuation, might that not encourage other Americans in future disputes to wait even later before seeking help? | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 648 Registered: 2-2003 |
Notehead, When one responds to an argument by name-calling, it's generally a concession that they've lost the argument. I've been called a "coward," "a chicken," a "traitor" and a "communist" in arguments on US Government military action in Iraq, Yugoslavia and Vietnam. I've never been called anti-semitic, but I've been called a "racist" for opposing the Right of Return to Israel by Palestinian refugees and their descendants. In each case, I've taken the name-calling as a concession that I won the argument. I'm a supporter of the Israeli Zionist peace organization Peace Now and its US counterpart Americans for Peace Now, which believe that Israel's security is best achieved through combining a powerful military while supporting the moderate forces in the Middle East, especially among the Palestinians. As I've said before, I think current Israeli Government policy is hurting civilians and empowering Hamas and Hezbollah in Gaza and Lebanon. Here's a commentary by a Peace Now founder on the current military onslaught in Lebanon:
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| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12177 Registered: 5-2001 |
Did the State Department have a warning posted on Lebanon before the violence began? The absolute worst thing for people to have done would have been to hit the road to the Syrian border or head to Beirut International to catch a flight. While our response has been slow, no Americans have yet been killed, which wouldn't have been the case if people had hit the road. I think it is really amusing that the Marines will be collecting checks or taking a hit on a credit card before boarding refugees. Kind of like the old Shuttle between NY and Boston.  | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1700 Registered: 10-2004  |
Paul - thank you for posting that. My sentiments are contained in there exactly. | ||
| Bajou Citizen Username: Bajou Post Number: 1167 Registered: 2-2006  |
Something to think about: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/07/18/dobbs.july19/index.html | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3601 Registered: 5-2001 |
Fascinating bit of info from the Dobbs piece: An estimated 50,000 Iraqis and more than 2,500 American troops have been killed since the insurgency began in March of 2003, which by some estimates is more than the number of dead on both sides of the Arab-Israeli conflict over the past 58 years of wars and intifadas. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1082 Registered: 4-2006 |
Paul- Hate to break it to you but "Peace Now" is a largely discredited and ignored organization in Israel itself. Many people who were members have left that organization after the 2nd intifada. "Yesh G'vul" is a fringe organization too. Think of these two as voicing as much of the sentiments of the general Israeli public as, say, an anarchist group does here in the states. You really need to read the Israeli media more. | ||
| Pdg Citizen Username: Pdg Post Number: 1025 Registered: 5-2004  |
"STAND WITH ISRAEL AGAINST TERRORISM" This is the title of the planned rally mentioned above by Library Lady. South Orange - Maplewood Rally for Israel Thursday, July 20, 7:00 P.M. Grove Park in South Orange (next to South Orange Avenue between Grove and Park) Speakers will include Gov. Jon Corzine and local clergy Speak out now against terrorism and in support of Israel’s right to self-defense. Cosponsors: Congregation Beth El, Oheb Shalom Congregation, Temple Sharey Tefilo Israel, Congregation Beth Ephraim, The Community Relations Council of Metrowest http://www.ohebshalom.org/home/viewEvent.jsp?EventId=2943 | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1701 Registered: 10-2004 |
once again fvf attacks the messenger but says nothing of the message. might it be that
has a bit more experience and understanding of the issues then fvf? (sorry too easy to go where only fvf should go) The real issue is not that Peace Now is a 'discredited organization' but rather that the organization takes positions counter to the beliefs of fvf and his neocon philosophy. Therefore the script says that they must be 'discredited' and can no longer contribute to the public discourse any ideas. Meanwhile the message was negotiate with those who will listen and can be convinced to make peace while fighting those who continue to attack Israel, at the same time avoiding as much collateral damage as possible. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 649 Registered: 2-2003 |
FactvsFiction: What is it that Reshef wrote that you disagree with? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1466 Registered: 7-2005  |
Israel is a terrorist state. What else can you call a country that responds to children throwing rocks at TANKS with MACHINE GUN FIRE. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro  Post Number: 3583 Registered: 5-2004  |
Glock, go read some history books. Then you can render an opinion. Read about the rare instances where what you describe has happened. Read what has happened to those soldiers. Do you equally consider Palestinians to be a terrorist people and Syria to be a terrorist nation? To use your own phrasing, what else would you call a people that support killing civilians (including women and children) that have done nothing to them? I recently saw the movie "Independence Day" again. There is a set of lines that I think is reflective of the Israel-Palestinian conflict: President: Can there be peace between us? Alien: Peace? No. No Peace. President: What do you want us to do? Alien: Die. Who do you think is representative of whom? | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1471 Registered: 7-2005 |
Palestinians want a place to live and call their own...lets think...just like Jews did! Now the Jews that live there are called israelis and decided that no one else should have their own home-state. So they are opressive ,ultra-militaristic and have become exactly what they complained about for ages. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3585 Registered: 5-2004 |
Except that Israel is not opposed to Palestinians having a home state. So your whole premise is flawed. They simply want security guarantees, and assurance that various terrorist organizations, that have the destruction of Israel as their reason for existing, will be held in check. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12182 Registered: 5-2001 |
Actually I think they used rubber bullets for the most part which are {usually} non-lethal. Also they issued hard rubber truncheons to beat the teenagers who were demonstrating in the streets. The limited Palestinian medical care facilities were overwhelmed with broken bones. Actually, these tactics worked. First an Israeli unit that would happily charge a machine gun position armed only with K-Bar knives were pretty much destroyed as military units when asked to beat children. Officers, not enlisted swine, were refusing duty in the West Bank. This didn't fit in with their self image of warriors. I just heard a quick blurb that the Israelis are now bombing the Christian area of Beirut, very close to where we are trying to evacuate US citizens. This doesn't bode well. I hope and pray that the students at The American University have been moved off campus. Getting that bombed would be a real coup for Hezbollah. | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3524 Registered: 9-2001  |
Now the Jews that live there are called israelis and decided that no one else should have their own home-state. No, they are simply saying that the Palestinians cannot have Israel as their home state. But the Palestinians keep saying that Israel is theirs. | ||
| G. Webb Citizen Username: Bam Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2006 |
Actually some jews think that the whole palestinian issue is a bunch of bull. They think that the refugees should have moved to Jordan, or Syria, or Lebanon a long time ago. They think that the entire region including the west bank, gaza strip is theirs. Why? Because God promised it to them. Why else, would they continue to build on land they acquired through war? Unfortunately for the palestinians, these people have names like Sharon, Netanyahu, Shamir, Meir, Ben-Gurion. etc etc | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3588 Registered: 5-2004 |
None of those people are in power in Israel today. Even Sharon was in favor of a two-sate solution, much to the chagrin of his own supporters. And the US was built on land acquired mainly through war (or simple displacement). | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1088 Registered: 4-2006 |
Hoops- Any port in a storm, eh? You don't know enough about a subject but latch on to a seemingly good post by Paul? Read both the comments and criticisms of Tzali before you attach yourself to him. I don't have a problem with your opinions, just your level of education on this topic. It is not like saying Bush is a moron, which is a clear matter of opinion. Paul- IMHO Tzali has been an opportunistic figure in Israel, akin to a Jimmy McGreevey. Israel has not turned to war as Tzali claims, because it does not want to talk, the reality has been clear as day there is no one to really talk to. BTW Tzali has called himself a "manipulator" and left Peace Now formally to be on the Labor slate. Read the Israeli media, Peace Now has been abandoned in droves and is nothing more than a fringe organization to Israelis. It just appeals to your own world view, not theirs. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1707 Registered: 10-2004 |
Ha. I know enough to know what is right. I know enough to see that the strategy you employ in your posts is not to refute a position but to tear down the messenger. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 650 Registered: 2-2003 |
FactvsFiction: With regard your suggestion that I read the "Israeli media" -- the Reshef commentary was published yesterday in Yediot Aharonot, Israel's largest circulation daily newspaper. Perhaps this will encourage you to read Reshef's piece and then comment on his assertions. Eats: Despite the election of Hamas, most Palestinians are prepared to accept a two-state solution of which one state would be Israel as a Jewish state (I think you've made this same point yourself in the recent past). One of the downsides of the current Israeli Government policy of destroying the civilian infrastructure in Gaza and Lebanon is that many Palestinians and Lebanese will move toward Hamas and Hezbollah, both of which want to destroy Israel. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1091 Registered: 4-2006 |
Paul- Newspapers always publish op-ed pieces, even the NY Times! It does not confer legitimacy to content. Tzali was one of the most prolific pushers of the failed Oslo Accords and thereafter a key " explainer" away of its failure as a matter of Israeli faults, second only to Yossi Beilin. The agreement failed because the Palestinians didn't fufill its terms. Very simple. Raed more Paul, please. | ||
| G. Webb Citizen Username: Bam Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2006 |
Rastro- Sharon was in favor of a two state solution at the end of his life. Fort most of his existence he tried to push the palestinians into the sea. Factvsfiction - you're kidding right? For ten years, while the Israelis built settlement after settlement after settlement, the palestinians lived in "relative" calm, established a stable economy, pledged support for a two state solution, arrested thousands of extremists, and made serious efforts to achieve peace. On the Israelis side, you had three or four different governments each with their own take on what a final solution would look like. All the while the Israelis kept taking more & more land vis a vis settlements. Pushing back deadlines to achieve meaningful progress. Carving up more and more of what would eventually become Palestine. Claiming ownership of water rights outside of Israel. So tell me again about all the terms the Palestinians didn't live up to. The situation finally exploded after Sharon who was a direct impediment to the peace process staged a symbolic provocation. The Arabs took the bate and so you have infatada part deux. And if you recall the first 12 months of the infatada didn't have suicide bombers running into Israel. It was mainly young arabs throwing stones at police & being shot at, sometimes w/ live rounds. Then came the home demolitions. Then came the shelling of the PA's infrastructure. Then came the isolation of Arafat. Then came the suicide bombers. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1483 Registered: 7-2005 |
Yep, webb exactly. No one wants to hear that though. Why doesn't the jewish community come up witha special wave, march in the streets wearing their special armbands and round up anyone they suspect to be a terrorist. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1094 Registered: 4-2006 |
Webb- What are you talking about? Have you been reading the white supremicist or Palestinian stuff? Tell me your sources if you don't mind. | ||
| Mtam Citizen Username: Mtam Post Number: 121 Registered: 11-2005 |
I have recently returned from Israel (before the fighting broke out) and I can say, categorically, but for the far right and hyper religious, most Israelis know that a 2-state solution is in the future--anyone who thinks that they are speaking of sending Palestinians to Jordan, etc., is living in a time warp. This dovetails with all the public opinion polls, and the same is true of the Palestinians. How to get there provokes a wide range of opinions. Sadly enough,the current situation sweeps away all that. To me, what's distressing about much of what I read here, and hear among people is it doesn't capture the texture of agonizing and thrashing out that is so much a part of Israel. There are no easy answers is what I've concluded and I find it peculiar that people here, and in the rest of the world, love to stand on the sidelines and assert they are so sure of the answers. | ||
| Josh Holtz Citizen Username: Jholtz Post Number: 539 Registered: 4-2004 |
G.Webb: Are you joking? What planet are you living on? Spewing that crap ... Established economy? Palestinians arresting thousands of extremists? Where do you get this stuff from? You make it sound like suicide bombing and Palestinian terrorism just popped up. Hell, did you just happen to forget the Munich Olympics? And realize one thing - Arafat did more damage to his own people than the Israelis did. While he was holed up - his wife was sitting in their Paris apartment counting the four billion dollars they stole from their own people. Glock: I would seriously consider taking back your cute little "armband" comment. | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 2589 Registered: 6-2003 |
Glock, have you ever considered moving to Austria and living the life of a failed painter ?, you certainly fit the mold. | ||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 6741 Registered: 12-2001  |
This is the most sensible thing I have read on this thread. There is so much intellectual posing going on it's hard to read. I claim no true understanding of the situation and wonder how anyone who hasn't lived there, experienced it first hand can understand what it is like to be a palestinian or an Israeli. Visiting doesn't count. I mean living, day to day, in a state of such constant Red Alert that nerves have to be frayed to the very end. What I do understand is a whole lot of blood is spilling in the region. And this is sad. Im goin back behind the lens see ya | ||
| G. Webb Citizen Username: Bam Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2006 |
Mr Holtz - I live on planet earth. my comments were restricted to the time between Oslo and the second infatada. Yes, I do remember munich, and the litany of other vile acts of against jews & the state of Israel. In regards to my point about the level of counter terrorism efforts and the PA , please read the passages below. I can dig up more references to support every line of my post if you'd like, some that may even tell you how many prisoners were locked up. The final point being that once all hell broke loose after 2000 Arafat freed them all & let loose the rains on Hamas. You may not like to hear it, but on the Palestinian side there was significant progress made towards peace from 88 though 2000. And yes, many Israelis did the same. The question you have to ask, is what happened leading up to 2000? How did the promise of peace on both sides degenerate into this? Is Arafat partly to blame - certainly. But the Israeli hawks are equally if not more culpable in my opinion. -----Violence and terrorism by Palestinian groups opposed to the peace process continued in 1998, albeit at a reduced level as compared with the previous two years. HAMAS alone launched more than a dozen attacks over the year. Among the more notable were grenade attacks in Hebron in September that injured 25 persons and in Beersheva in October that injured more than 50. A HAMAS car bomb in the Gaza Strip in late October killed one Israeli soldier and injured several schoolchildren. The PIJ attempted a car bombing in November in Jerusalem that killed only the two militants. Other serious attacks against Israel and its citizens also occurred, including the shooting deaths of two settlers on guard duty in early August and the assassination of a prominent rabbi in Hebron later that month. Small bomb explosions in Tel Aviv in August and in Jerusalem in September wounded a total of 13 Israelis. For its part, Israel continued vigorous counter-terrorist operations, including numerous arrests and seizures of weapons and explosives. In one of the most significant actions of the year, Israeli forces on 10 September raided a farmhouse near Hebron, killing two leading HAMAS terrorists, Adil and Imad Awadallah. The Palestinian Authority (PA), which is responsible for security in Gaza and most major West Bank cities, continued to act against Palestinian perpetrators of anti-Israeli violence. The PA's security apparatus preempted several attacks over the year, including a planned HAMAS double-suicide bombing staged from the Gaza Strip in late September. The PA launched several large-scale arrest campaigns targeting individuals with ties to terrorist organizations and detained several leading HAMAS and PIJ political figures. In one of the more significant operations of the year, the PA in late September uncovered a HAMAS bomb lab filled with hundreds of kilograms of explosives. At the same time, more PA effort is needed to enhance its bilateral cooperation with Israel and its unilateral fight against terrorism. | ||
| Josh Holtz Citizen Username: Jholtz Post Number: 540 Registered: 4-2004 |
G.Webb: I did not realize that your starting point was Oslo. With regard to the article - its nice but I just don't understand where the point has been made that the PA has arrested thousands of extremists? Now let's say that 1000s were arrested - how many were found guilty and incarcerated? I can guarantee you very little. And of those that were imprisoned how many were broken out of prison by outside extremists? The PA security forces has always been weak and has never been able to control any of the extremist organizations. Now that much of Arafat's corruption has been eliminated we will see how well they will produce in the future. It would be a tremendous help to the peace process if they could keep the extremists in check. Personally, I believe it is a lost cause though. As for Israel's defense of the killings and kidnappings - I do believe they have made a mistake. At first it had the world's support. Now that it has become excessive they only have the backing of a few. Unfortunately they were in a very difficult position. Make immediate concessions to Hamas and Hezbollah and there would have been no stopping future kidnappings. Use some force then negotiate - maybe it would have put an end to it. Sadly, things escalated into a small war. Israel will end up negotiating for the return of its soldiers but at much cost to all three sides. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12195 Registered: 5-2001 |
Yeah, the PA police force had real problems after Israel disarmed them.  I am afraid a lot of the "initiatives" in the occupied territories are doomed to failure by the way the Israelis implement them. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3606 Registered: 5-2004 |
Did those thousands of terror suspects simply give themselves up to the unarmed PA police? Either the police are armed, and they were able to round up thousands of suspects, or they are unarmed, and they have not rounded up any suspects. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1102 Registered: 4-2006 |
Bob K- Is your seeming hostility to Israel all stemming from the "eruv"?  . Mtam- A sensitive and nuanced post for sure. People voted for Kadima largely based on its policies. The Israeli public and now Kadima itself is re-evaluating its ideas about withdrawal now. I look forward to hearing what you and Rastro have to report from your friends and/or family there. What I know from my communications is that, at a minimum, people believe Hezbollah and Hamas should be broken, and made missle-free. We are on the way to a less "soft" Israel when it comes to terrorist outrages, and perhaps some new paradigms. | ||
| Illuminated Radish Citizen Username: Umoja Post Number: 35 Registered: 6-2006 |
A thought I heard brought up on the news today. Since Israel is taking over for a defective Lebanese government, and rooting out Hezbollah, will they be paying Lebanon reparations for the damage they've done? I've heard that 10 times as many Lebananese have been killed, when compared to the Israelis, and millions of dollars of damage has been done to their infrastructure. Would it be rational for Israel to at least pay for the damage they've done to Lebanon? Because my problem, and I'm sure most of the Lebanese problem, is not Israel attempting to root out a terrorist organization that the Lebanese millitary can't, it's the damage that's being done to Lebanon. Lebanon has been trying to recover from a civil war (which set it back tremendously), and now it has to rebuild from this recent conflict. I don't see that creating a friendly Lebanon, unless Israel has a massive plan for resititution. Are most in accordance with my way of thinking? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12196 Registered: 5-2001 |
Fact, I am not hostile to Israel, just to some of its policies. They disarmed the PA police because they were worried that the police would use their sidearms to attack Israelis, then complain that the police can't keep order. Most of my posts here are trying to point out that Israel isn't perfect and has a lot of skeletons in its own closet. Something many of the posters here are either not aware of or refuse to admit. When I first posted about the Stern Gang and other fun folks back in the 1930s and 1940s in relationship to setting off bombs in Paelestinian marketplaces, killing the UN envoy, Count Bernadotte (who incidentally saved hundreds of Jews during WWII by issuing them Swedish passports) and the bombing of the Palestine Hotel the reaction was such that I was viewed as the second coming of Adolph. The history of Israel has been sanitized by the propogandists. |
