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Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12208 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 5:36 am: |
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Joel, unlike most of your cut and paste jobs from the right wing propogandists this one is interesting (July, 22 = 6:34pm). The difference, however, between our actions in Afghanistan and Israel's actions in Lebanon is that the United States had the support (admitedly bought and paid for) of a large number of warlords who fought against the Taliban. Israel doesn't have the support of the estimated 60 percent of the non-Shi'a population of Lebanon, as much as they spin that they do. Israel will be able to kill many Hezbollah fighters and destroy a good part of their rocket supply. However, there are always new fighters coming into the ranks and Iran can supply more missles. Unless, Israel is prepared to occupy Lebanon for another twenty years all the current war will accomplish is a short lull in the action and attacks.
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Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12212 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 6:30 am: |
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Will one of you military strategists explain why the Israeli Air Force is taking out hospitals? Is it because they receive financial support from the social services arm of Hezbollah and might treat injured fighters? |
   
Larry Seltzer
Citizen Username: Elvis
Post Number: 121 Registered: 4-2006

| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 7:34 am: |
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Where'd you hear that the IAF was taking out hospitals Bob? |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12213 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 7:48 am: |
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It has been on the cable news shows, more on MSNBC and CNN than Fox. MSNBC even had a tape calling the damaged building a hospital. Another possibility is that Hezbollah was thought to be storing rockets there. Still, given the number of casualties, I find this tactic distasteful, even if they knew missles were stored there. } |
   
Larry Seltzer
Citizen Username: Elvis
Post Number: 122 Registered: 4-2006

| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 8:21 am: |
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I've been all over cnn.com, msnbc.com and other sites looking for any reference to this and I see nothing. I have a really hard time believing you. |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12215 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 9:00 am: |
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I can't either, but it was on both CNN and MSNBC yesterday afternoon. Googling "lebanon hospital bombing" there are a lot of references from questionable news sources, the most reliable of which is Michael Moores site. I hope this is incorrect to be honest.
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sbenois
Supporter Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15403 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 9:20 am: |
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Bobk, When Israel hits a hospital (and I'm with Larry, I can't find anything on it at this point either) it's generally a mistake unless they suspect that it's not really a hospital or is instead being used to hide other activities. When Hezbollah hits a hospital, it's a lucky strike. But thanks for your sarcasm - and your almost complete disregard for the Israelis who have been holed up in bomb shelters to avoid the daily barrage of rockets coming from Lebanon.
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Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12216 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 9:25 am: |
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Sbenois, where is the sarcasm? Here is some. I understand that the Israelis are complaining that the bomb shelters are dusty and it is causing asthma and allergy problems. Is it OK to take out a hospital on the suspicion that weapons or rockets may be stored there?
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Larry Seltzer
Citizen Username: Elvis
Post Number: 123 Registered: 4-2006

| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 9:32 am: |
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Actually Bob's right, if you go to extreme leftist sites you'll find them picking up a story by Dahr Jamail listing eyewitness accounts ("I saw them bomb two hospitals..."). He actually reported them bombing hospitals over a week ago. It looks to me, BTW, like this report was filed from Syria, so consider that too. My guess is that someone at CNN, in the typical cable addiction to anything that sounds outrgeous, ran the unconfirmed rumor while showing file footage of bombed buildings. But it never even survived their flimsy confirmation procedures. |
   
Larry Seltzer
Citizen Username: Elvis
Post Number: 124 Registered: 4-2006

| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 9:35 am: |
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>>Is it OK to take out a hospital on the suspicion that weapons or rockets may be stored there? The question is basically moot because the story you cited appears not to be true. No respectable news source is reporting it.
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joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 766 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 9:56 am: |
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JC: let me get the website. http://www.martinkramer.org/sandstorm.html |
   
kathleen
Citizen Username: Symbolic
Post Number: 583 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 12:22 pm: |
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Mtam, I posted the 1948 letter because its authors addressed the American voter and argued in blunt language that US support for Israel should be conditional and explained why. That historic letter argues that it matters which political philosophies gain ascendency in Israel, and that US power should not be put in the service of Israeli political groups that betray America's first principles. With all due respect, I disagree with your analysis that ths history of Israel's own internal struggle for ideas, and its struggle to condemn homegrown terrorism is well-known to most American voters or those reading MOL. It's a very safe bet that many people reading that letter had never seen Menachem Begin's politics and tactics exposed in such startling fashion by such illustrious thinkers. This is not about the history of atrocities on both sides. It is about following the evolution of who and what has come to dominate present-day Israeli policies and governments, and asking whether alternative Zionist viewpoints still exist and have viable support or have lost out permanently. To me, there is no doubt they have been marginalized and there is a peristent effort to ostracize those who espouse a different path for Israel. I think you are misreading the situation to suspect that those who observe noxious ideologies at play in present-day Israeli politics and strategies bring it up as a cover for their own discomfort with the idea of Israel or because of the occupation. The discomfort is with the noxious ideologies, which are not intrinsic to ALL ideas about Israel, only some. There is nothing wrong in pointing out that this strain of Zionism is and has been persistently wrong -- just as it was pointed out in 1948. As for Tariq Ali, why single him out among all the viewpoints I posted -- from The Sydney Morning Herald to Henry Siegman to Chris Hedges? (Surely you recognize these names too.) I posted their succinct words because others reading MOL, some of whom are not posting, find them educational given the reality that most people in America are not exposed to the robust debate that goes on in the rest of the free world about Israel's actions in the Middle East. Instead, they get a very sterile, strictly limited debate hemmed in by socially-enforced rules about which words can and cannot be used to talk about Israel, and which history can and cannot be told about Israel. The most vehement enforcers of these rules (you're not one of them) want just one result: Unconditional support of Israei, no matter what the Israeli government is doing. I'm opposed to that.
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J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2593 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 3:00 pm: |
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Thanks for the link, Joel. That guy is interesting. Mtam's posts in these threads have been very incisive. FvF is right to point out the Shia/Sunni, Arab/Persian divide and its implications for Hizballah. The NYT reports the US intends to try and pry Syria away from Tehran (although why this is being advertised to the press via unnamed government sources at such a dodgy juncture escapes me). BobK: "Israel doesn't have the support of the estimated 60 percent of the non-Shi'a population of Lebanon, as much as they spin that they do." Exactly how would you know? From BBC reporting? I'm not sure it's realistic to expect that Israel will have "support" from Lebanese, except to the extent that a fair chunk of your 60% is infuriated that their country is being controlled and dragged into conflict by Iran and Syria, and hopes Israel will finish off Hizballah once and for all. That's not a claim coming from Israel, either, but from my non-Shia friend in Beirut (G-d-willing, she and her family are now in Spain) who thinks the Israelis are bastards but knows very well who started this war. And here's a correspondent, Annia Ciezadlo, writing from Beirut for The New Republic:
In Sanayeh Garden, Beirut's only public park, the fragile democracy Bush had nervously praised was nowhere to be found. Instead, there was a handful of students, a couple of flak-jacketed TV cameramen, and several hundred Shia who had fled the bombing in southern Lebanon. By July 18, at least 500,000 Lebanese had been displaced. One family had camped out under a tree, hanging a birdcage with a canary from its branches and setting up a small gas stove. A young man with greasy, shoulder-length curls walked up to me and asked, in French, if I was a journalist. "Yes, I am," I told him. "Are you?" "No," he replied. "I am king here." The king led me to a tired young student wearing the insignia of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party, a small, pro-Syrian nationalist group. Wissam Abou Sleiman, a 24-year-old college grad, was in charge of the relief operations for the entire park. There was nobody, not a single official, from the Lebanese government. None of Lebanon's powerful political parties had showed up; some had donated money, but no manpower. "Future helped a bit, but we want more from them," said Sleiman, his face tight with frustration. The Future Movement is the Saudi-backed party of Saad Hariri, leading light of Beirut's Sunni establishment and son of billionaire former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. The elder Hariri, who was assassinated by a car bomb last year, helped rebuild the city's downtown into an international tourist magnet. When Hezbollah launched its war against Israel, the collateral damage included Lebanon's thriving tourist economy, which was poised to have a banner year this summer. Sunnis, to whom the rebuilt Lebanon was a source of endless pride, are extremely angry. Now, to make matters worse, hordes of Shia are flooding middle-class Sunni neighborhoods in Beirut, some of which are still trying to get rid of Shia squatters from Lebanon's last war. There's also the sectarian subtext of the current war, in which an Iranian-backed militia essentially assumed the prerogative of the state. Two days after Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers, the Saudi Press Agency issued a statement declaring the war a "miscalculated adventure" carried out by "elements inside the state and those behind them"--a clear reference to Iran. Over the past year, Sunni support for "the resistance" has dropped considerably, thanks to Shia support for Syria. Tensions between Sunnis and Shia, already simmering, are now explosive. For all these reasons, the Sunnis, along with the rest of Lebanon's sectarian leaders, are not inclined to help the almost exclusively Shia refugees. "Deep down inside, in the psyche of Sunni politicians, and certainly the Christians, they think: 'They started this, let them fix it. They caused this mass exodus. Why should we clean their s hit?'" says Charles Adwan, the former director of the Lebanese Transparency Association. "Those people are Shia, and they are there because of Shia actions. Let the Shia help them." "Entombed," http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20060731&s=ciezadlo073106 (subscription required) |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2594 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 3:25 pm: |
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Actually, this Martin Kramer guy is dead on, repeatedly. Here, for instance, writing about the unintended legacy of Edward Said:
The Achilles heel of [Said's best known work] Orientalism, and much of the "critical scholarship," was its very narrow conception of the forces of change in the Middle East. <i>Orientalism<i/> made no mention of modern Iran at all, or indeed of any movement framing its agenda in the language of Islam. To Said's mind, it was an orientalist trope to invoke "the return of Islam."2 "History, politics, and economics do not matter" to the orientalists, wrote Said mockingly. "Islam is Islam, the Orient is the Orient, and please take all your ideas about a left and a right wing, revolutions, and change back to Disneyland."3 In many contexts, Said insisted upon writing "Islam" with quotation marks, as though it were a category created solely by and for orientalists. That "Islam" might actually serve to mobilize movements more readily than ideologies of left and right seemed not to occur to Said at all. Malcolm Kerr, in his review of Orientalism, was struck by the omission: "Does Said realize how insistently Islamic doctrine in its many variants has traditionally proclaimed the applicability of religious standards to all aspects of human life, and the inseparability of man's secularand spiritual destinies? What does he suppose the Ayatollah Khomeini and the Muslim Brotherhood are all about?"4 It was a valid question, and one that Said consistently dodged. His Covering Islam, published in 1981, represented a scramble to cover the gaping hole in Orientalism. Said's indictment of the media and "experts" for their failure to anticipate or explain the revolution in Iran was very much a diversionary tactic, given Said's own failure to do the same in a book published only two years earlier. Nor did he risk offering an interpretation of his own. The closest Said came to an account of Islamism was to blame the orientalists: according to Said, Muslim Orientals, subjected to orientalist demonization, had entered a reactive mode, "acting the part decreed for them" by the experts.5 By this logic, Said could trace every Islamist excess to Western prejudice, and eventually he did. In 1989, Khomeini issued a fatwa (edict) condemning the British-Indian author Salman Rushdie to death for his novel The Satanic Verses. "Why is that ignorance there," asked Said, "if not for the disregard, indifference and fear with which things Islamic are considered here? . . . Islam is reduced to terrorism and fundamentalism and now, alas, is seen to be acting accordingly, in the ghastly violence prescribed by Ayatollah Khomeini."6 This mode of argumentation conveniently absolved Said and followers of the difficult job of accounting for Islamist deeds. Instead, each Islamist action became another opportunity for the repetitive and ritual denunciation of Western prejudice against Islam. [My emphasis. Note that the same dynamic applies in the ritual denunciations of imperialist 'provocation' or 'humiliation' of Arabs and/or Muslims which crop up with every suicide attack, train bombing, kidnapping, decapitation, rocket launch, etc. against western civilians. -JC] Still, the "return of Islam" was an unwelcome surprise to Said and Saidians. Even more surprising (and, for Said, unpleasant) was the way many Islamist "returnees" read Said's texts. Almost invariably, they understood them as anti-Western, pro-Islamic polemical tracts and deployed them as intellectual ammunition against Islam's "enemies," including secularists in their own societies. By choice or by ignorance, Said had disregarded the prior existence of an elaborate discourse of anti-orientalism within the Muslim world. When these Muslim readers opened Orientalism and Covering Islam, they perceived nothing new, and read them merely as "insider" confirmation of long-standing suspicions that Western scholars were agents of their governments, that Western scholarship was part of a conspiracy to defame Islam. http://www.geocities.com/martinkramerorg/IslamObscured.htm |
   
kathleen
Citizen Username: Symbolic
Post Number: 584 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 4:14 pm: |
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Perhaps the report BobK saw was this one about a hospital in southern Beirut, from Sanjay Gupta, aired on CNN today: http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/23/gupta.beirut/ Gupta also reports for Time magazine: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1217979,00.html
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Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12217 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 4:21 pm: |
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JC, you made my point. The Sunnis and Christians are looking at the total destruction of their country and the billions of dollars invested there, much of it by wealthy Lebanese and even more from abroad. They are going to look at the IDF as liberators? Don't think so. Lebanon is a fractured society at the best of times. With the stress inflicted on it by the war it is at best even money that the government will survive and again even money if a Syrian backed government will be formed or the country will just go back to a civil war. |
   
kathleen
Citizen Username: Symbolic
Post Number: 585 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 4:42 pm: |
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Mtam, I dug back through the thread to find previous posts of yours I might have missed, and I came across this, and I wholeheartedly agree with what you wrote: "To me, what's distressing about much of what I read here, and hear among people is it doesn't capture the texture of agonizing and thrashing out that is so much a part of Israel. There are no easy answers is what I've concluded and I find it peculiar that people here, and in the rest of the world, love to stand on the sidelines and assert they are so sure of the answers." I would only add that knowing more of the long history of that "agonizing and thrashing out" would go far to inform the discussion, which I agree with you is incredibly sterile and thus doomed to yield no creative new path to peace. I don't know where else you've traveled but it seems to me America sticks out for having the most uninformed and sterile discussion of Israeli and Palestinian issues anywhere you look. At the same time, American citizens are hardly on the sidelines in this war -- which, you are right, has now swept away many once viable paths to an enduring peace. Individual Americans have something critically important at stake in the outcome, and they will have to both learn the history AND understand that we are at a new moment which makes repetitively droning their cherished "verities" irrelevant. |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1167 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 10:12 pm: |
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kathleen- My take is that you find the discussions "sterile" because most Americans support Israel. BTW, you are missing the latest Gideon Levy piece to add to your MOL posting "collection". Pretty soon Gideon is going to have to move to Gaza. Where it seems, a good number of Israelis might think he belongs. |
   
kathleen
Citizen Username: Symbolic
Post Number: 586 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 11:37 am: |
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facts, I don't have any problem with Americans supporting Israel. I have a problem with the face of America in the middle east becoming Abu Ghraib, Egyptian prison cells and Israeli rampage and racism -- none of which is necessary to support of Israel, but all of which are problems that do exist and need to be understood for the protection of American interests. I read Ha'aretz every day and haven't missed anything Gideon Levy has said. Unlike your desires for Americans discussings mid-east problems, Ha'aretz sees as legitimate a full range of Israeli opinion. Who belongs in Gaza is an interesting question, one on which you seem to trip all over yourself, but that's the way it is with bigotry, which is the only lens you are able to see through. Despite the overwhelming support for Israel on this website, you still can't make a sale with your posts. |
   
Mtam
Citizen Username: Mtam
Post Number: 127 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:46 pm: |
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Kathleen, I have traveled extensively and I would not say that this "sterile" dialogue about Israel is not limited to America, though it has an extra charge here, for obvious reasons, and to me it's bolstered by the CNN style of reporting/presentation, where we love the tennis match style of commentary (one from the left, one from the right), and the pyrotechnics of battle coverage. I find the European/English discussions often problematic as well. I too try to read Ha aretz and Al Jazeera--which, by the way, most Israelis I know do, as well (when they have time). I think I again stumble over your comments such as "Israeli rampage and racism" --these kinds of broad sweeping statements that offer no context, nor any agency and will on the other side. I do also wonder if you have ever visited there because so many Americans pontificate about the region, in ways they would never about Kashmir, or the Congo, say, both areas of deep trouble. My point is simply that when I was within Israel the view of someone such as Gideon Levy is one view, as are others, and I found that each has a moral/political compass worth listening to. I don't appreciate when those on the outside seize one of those views, parachute in and feel there is one "right" answer--perhaps to make themselves feel better as it is agony to watch this conflict. Those different voices have always been a part of Israel the country, and its policy, and you can't just describe it as unidirectional--after all it was Sharon, of all people (and so many I know loathe even saying his name) who began the process of the Gaza withdrawal. I see Israeli leaders as often buffetted by the latest crisis and depending on the mood of the country, they make surprising turns in either direction. I do think that one has to realize that the peace and left side of Israel had quite a lot of energy pulled out of it after the refusal at Taba and the 2nd Intifada. During my visit, which just preceded this conflict, I had more a sense of a divorce that was going on, what with the Gaza withdrawal, the proposed West Bank withdrawal, and most importantly, the security wall. Israelis were going on with their lives, and the suicide bombers no longer had the power to undermine even that. Yes, I think there was a sense of that they had, essentially "won" and would dictate the terms of the withdrawals, and so forth. But there was no sense of jingoistic triumphalism--simply a weary, "we will get there" attitude of someone in the midst of a divorce. To me, the Lebanon crisis are those regional parties who are saying, Not so fast, buddy--you can't disengage, and are dragging everyone back to the old conflicts which are still festering. |
   
Mtam
Citizen Username: Mtam
Post Number: 128 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:54 pm: |
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I just wanted to add--I think we are in agreement that Americans knowing more about the range of responses/forces within Israel is important--and I mean that for the left too--understanding that there's a legitmacy to a hawkish position, even if one disagrees. I find that criticism is taken much better there, than here, for sure. And yet, at the same time, when I offer those criticisms there, I also have to be prepared, because the other side (say, more hawkish) has valid points too. In other words, it is a live dialogue, not just a stale staking of positions, as it is can be here. |
   
Mtam
Citizen Username: Mtam
Post Number: 129 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 3:04 pm: |
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And I'll add one more--perhaps I am underestimating how much other critical voices are read or heard in the U.S.(Henry Siegman, etc.)--by most. So, Kathleen, fair enough in wanting to inject them into the conversation. I'm just saying that having read them over the years, having read some of Ameera Hess' book, I find these views problematic as well. And I'm as suspicious of the American left's complete condemnation of Israel, and a certain romanticizing of the Palestinian view. I think, too, it's an emotional response--it's easier to listen to criticism when it comes from a love of a country, a place. It's much harder when it comes from those who have no love of a place. |
   
tjohn
Supporter Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4547 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 3:28 pm: |
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I haven't been to Israel for a while - 1979 to be exact. My flight was from Munich to Tel Aviv. When the plane taxied on the runways in Munich, we were escorted by an armored car armed with a machine gun. When the plane landed in Tel Aviv, there was applause either for a smooth landing or a safe landing. The Israelis I met were completely generous including a brigade commander who invited me out to seen his armored brigade at Male Hadumin. One thing that sticks in my mind and maybe wouldn't happen now is when I wandered into a poor Palestinian neighborhood. I was swarmed by children asking for money. A Palestinian man in his 20's or 30's told them to stop bothering me. He then said, "You are American?". I said, "yes"? He said. "Welcome." Would that happen now? I guess if not, then that is our problem - we have gone from being seen as a broker of peace to a supporter of Israel. |
   
ae35unit
Citizen Username: Ae35unit
Post Number: 169 Registered: 2-2006

| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:17 pm: |
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"And I'm as suspicious of the American left's complete condemnation of Israel" etc... That's a strawman that's a hateful representation of all that's wrong with the world, much less this thread. Mtam, In your two back to back posts- here's an exercise -underline the facts, that's right there aren't any, except maybe whether you read, I'll quote "having read some of Ameera Hess' book". Everything else is shameful invective from someone who seems to hold themselves in a moral and intellectually superior position. That sounds to me like the problem in the Mideast in the first place.
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Rastro
Citizen Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3631 Registered: 5-2004

| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:33 pm: |
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ae35unit, does every post have to have facts in it? Did you read any of Mtam's other posts on this thread, or only the two that you cite? Other than that one sentence, which seems to have you quite riled up, what do you disagree with about what Mtam writes? |
   
Mtam
Citizen Username: Mtam
Post Number: 130 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 4:56 pm: |
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??? I cited Ameera Hess as one example of a writer, among many many I had read over the years, to Kathleen, so we understood we were speaking of many of the same writers, and whether or not they are part of the larger discourse here in the U.S. Wherein lies my invective? |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1177 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 5:03 pm: |
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kathleen- It's really getting tired, but you have finally shown your true colors. "Israeli racism" and more yadda-yadda? A local version of Rachel Corrie? According to you Ha'aretz has the largest circulation in Israel, and reflects the voice of the Israeli people? Oh my. You will never find comparable comments, articles, analysis, or arguments such as appear in Ha'aretz criticizing Israel in any Palestinian publication, criticizing Palestinian terrorism or their government. They are afraid they would be killed or jailed if they did. So please use the Israeli free press and democratic society to post more arguments that you feel make your case against Israel. This way people can contrast. And compare who really shares our democratic values and beliefs. And oh yes, some bad news for you. Our national interests are more consistant with what the Israelis are doing than not. Guess you will have to work even harder to find your contrarian and iconoclast "authorities" now ,huh? |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2595 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 6:16 pm: |
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"I again stumble over your comments such as "Israeli rampage and racism" --these kinds of broad sweeping statements that offer no context, nor any agency and will on the other side." Silly Mtam. Don't you understand that only westerners are capable of agency (or racism)? Arabs are just a sort of stage set.
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J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2596 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 6:18 pm: |
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Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah: I Told Lebanese Political Leaders We Would Abduct Israeli Soldiers To view this Special Dispatch in HTML, visit: http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD121106 . On July 24, 2006, Al-Jazeera TV aired an interview with Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah. The following are excerpts from the interview: TO VIEW THIS CLIP, VISIT: http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1200 . We Did Not Expect the Arab Regimes "To Participate in Spilling the Blood of the Victim, and to Provide Cover for the Crimes of the Hangman" Hassan Nasrallah: "The international community has never been with us, for us to claim that 'today it is not with us, it is besieging us, abandoning us, and neglecting us.' It has never been with us. On the contrary, it has been against us in the things that matter. For example, we have been on the American terrorism list since... since they began the terrorism list. We were among the first to be included in the terrorism list. Some European countries also include us in their terrorism lists. The position of the international community is clear, and therefore, we are not surprised by the international community, and we have never pinned our hopes on it." [...] "As for some of the Arab positions - this is, of course, something new. True. In the past, some of the Arab regimes renounced the resistance and its men. Today, we would accept it if the Arab regimes - I am being very objective and realistic... We would accept it if they were neutral. That's it. In the past, too, we accepted this from them. If you examine the rhetoric of Hizbullah... Maybe the rhetoric of our Palestinian brothers is different, and this is their right, because their circumstances are much harsher than ours. They always attack, accuse, and denounce the regimes and the rulers. This is not part of our rhetoric or writings. Why? Because we have forgotten about them. There is no need for it. If you assume someone exists, you can attack him, but if you feel that he does not exist, by attacking him, you would be aggravating yourself for nothing. "Once we used to ask the international community to denounce the hangman and to have mercy on the victim. Then we got to the point where we said we would accept it if they denounce the hangman and the victim alike. This has become what we could expect from them. If a resolution denounces both the hangman and the victim - fine. As for the Arab regimes - all we expect from them is to be neutral. And if they do not want to be neutral - brother, let them treat Israel and us equally. We would even accept it if they treat the hangman and the victim equally. But for them to participate in spilling the blood of the victim, and to provide cover for the crimes of the hangman - I tell you that we did not expect this. This was indeed a surprise." [...] "I say categorically that the Israeli response to the capturing operation could have been harsh, but limited, if not for the cover provided by the Arabs and international community. It is not that Israel got the green light from America, Ghassan. Israel received an American decision that said: 'Go on and finish that business in Lebanon.'" [...] "In addition, some of the Arabs provided a cover, and encouraged Israel to continue the battle. Israel was told that this is a golden and historic opportunity to annihilate the resistance in Lebanon. They don't want to annihilate only the resistance of Hizbullah in Lebanon. They want to annihilate any motivation to conduct resistance in Lebanon, whether by Hizbullah or anyone else. They want to bring the country to a situation in which the word 'resistance' is considered derogatory. Martyr, jihad, wounded, steadfastness, challenge, liberation, freedom, power, honor, nobility, dignity - all these words must be removed from the vocabulary of the Lebanese, from the press, the political writings, from the political thinking, from the popular conscience. This is what Israel is doing. America needs this if it wants to reorganize the region." [...] "I Say to the Arab Rulers... Remain Neutral" Hassan Nasrallah: "I am convinced that even the sons, daughters, and wives of some Arab rulers are with us. But I say to the Arab rulers: I don't want your swords or even your hearts. All I want is for you to leave us alone, as we say in colloquial Lebanese. In other words, remain neutral. We are fine with that. You've said what you said - you can relax now, thank you very much. Today there is a war that was imposed on Lebanon. Its purpose is to eliminate anything to do with the resistance or its fighters in Lebanon, and to punish Lebanon for defeating Israel. The truth is that the goal of the war against Lebanon is to eliminate the Palestinian issue. Everybody knows that the widespread Intifada in Palestine broke out following the victory in Lebanon. What is happening in Palestine is a similar and improved version of the Lebanese model. If today we destroy the Lebanese model, the message to the Palestinians would be that they should despair." [...] "The [Lebanese] Government Statement Says That [the Armed Resistance] has the Right to Liberate the Land and the Prisoners" Hassan Nasrallah: "This thing you asked me about - that I didn't inform or ask [the Lebanese government]... "First of all, the government statement, on the basis of which we joined the government, says that the Lebanese government adopts the resistance, and its natural right to liberate the land and the prisoners. Okay, how is the resistance supposed to liberate the prisoners? It should go to George Bush? I cannot and will not go to George Bush. When you say 'the right of the resistance,' you are not talking about the foreign ministry. You are talking about the armed resistance, and the government statement says that it has the right to liberate the land and the prisoners. I am a resistance movement. I am armed. That's one thing. This is the government statement, on the basis of which the government won the parliament's vote of confidence. "Second, during the [Lebanese national] dialogue... Some people are now saying that I did or didn't say certain things... There are recordings. Yes, I did tell them that we are keeping the border calm, because this was our policy. But there are two issues in which we cannot tolerate this calm. I raised four issues. Two issues can bear delays, procrastination, postponement, and reminders. No problem. The first is the continued occupation of the Shab'a Farms. Never mind, we can take our time on this. This is a small and limited piece of land. We will not start a war over the Shab'a Farms. I'm referring to the kind of war we have now. The second issue was the aerial and naval violations [of sovereignty], and even violations by ground forces. We can tolerate this. True, violations of our sovereignty are deplorable. But are we supposed to destroy the world because of it? No. Two issues cannot tolerate any delay. One is the issue of the prisoners, because of the human suffering. The second issue is any attack against civilians. I told them on more than one occasion that we are taking the issue of the prisoners seriously, and that abducting Israeli soldiers is the only way to resolve it. Of course, I said this in a low-key tone. I did not declare in the dialogue: 'In July I will abduct Israeli soldiers.' This is impossible." "I Told Them [Lebanese Political Leaders] That We Must Resolve the Issue of the Prisoners, and That the Only Way to Resolve it is by Abducting Israeli Soldiers" Interviewer: "Did you inform them that you were about to abduct Israeli soldiers?" Hassan Nasrallah: "I told them that we must resolve the issue of the prisoners, and that the only way to resolve it is by abducting Israeli soldiers." Interviewer: "Did you say this clearly?" Hassan Nasrallah: "Yes, and nobody said to me: 'No, you are not allowed to abduct Israeli soldiers.' Even if they had told me not to... I'm not defending myself here. I said that we would abduct Israeli soldiers, in meetings with some of the main political leaders in the country. I don't want to mention names now, but when the time comes to settle accounts, I will. They asked: 'If this happens, will the issue of the prisoners be over and done with?' I said that it was logical that it would. And I'm telling you, our estimation was not mistaken. I'm not exaggerating. Anywhere in the world - show me a country, show me an army, show me a war, in which two soldiers, or even civilian hostages, were abducted, and a war was waged against a country - and all for two soldiers. This has never happened throughout history, and even Israel has never done such a thing." [...] "If 60-70 people know all the details of an abduction operation, can it possibly be successful? No, it cannot. All the more so if I inform a government, which has 24 ministers, the heads of the three government branches, political forces, and coalitions. When we held the national dialogue, we talked and discussed things, and an hour later, the protocols of the meetings reached the embassies. Do you want me to tell the entire world that I am about to carry out an abduction operation? It's not logical." [...] "It is true that I did not inform the Lebanese government, but I did not inform my closest allies either. Syria and Iran did not know. No Syrian or Iranian knew. They did not know, and I did not consult any of them." [...] How Can the War Affect the Iranian Nuclear Dossier? Hassan Nasrallah: "On the Iranian issue... Now there is a war in Lebanon. In one, two, or three months it will end. How long can it possibly last? Once the war is over, in what way will it affect the Iranian nuclear dossier? What effect will it have on it? On the contrary, if this is in any way connected to the Iranian nuclear dossier, the war being waged against Lebanon does not serve its interest. The Americans and the Israelis have always taken into account that if a confrontation breaks out with Iran, Hizbullah might intervene in Iran's favor. So striking Hizbullah now would weaken, rather than strengthen, Iran on the nuclear issue." [...] "Hizbullah has Always Placed Lebanese National Interests Above any Other Interest" Hassan Nasrallah: "Hizbullah has always placed Lebanese national interests above any other interest. During the national dialogue, I said to them: You have known us for 23-24 years. I am ready to tell each and every one of them which battles he has fought - some of them, not all of them... I am ready to tell some of them which battles they have fought for the sake of foreign, rather than Lebanese, interests. Tell me when we, Hizbullah, did anything to Lebanon, or led it into war, for the sake of foreign, rather than Lebanese, interests. They could not give me a single example." [...] "Victory in this case does not mean that I will enter and conquer the north of Palestine, and liberate Nahariya, Haifa, and Tiberias. This is not one of our slogans. This is a long process, which pertains to the Palestinians and to the nation. This is another issue. The victory that we are talking about - If the resistance survives, this will be a victory. If its determination is not broken, this will be a victory. If Lebanon is not humiliated, if its honor and dignity remain intact, if Lebanon continues to face all alone the strongest military force in the region, and if it perseveres and refuses to accept any humiliating terms in the settlement of this issue - this will be a victory. If we are not militarily defeated, this will be a victory. As long as a single missile is launched from Lebanon to target the Zionists, as long as a single fighter fires his gun, as long as someone plants an explosive device for the Israelis, this means that the resistance still exists." [...] "Today, we Shi'ites are fighting Israel. Our fighting and perseverance ultimately serve our brothers in Palestine, who are Sunni, not Shi'ite. In other words, we, Shi'ites and Sunnis, fight side by side against Israel, which is supported and strengthened by America. I'm telling you that if [Israeli Prime Minister Ehud] Olmert reaches a point at which he says to the Americans, 'I cannot complete this,' Bush will say to him, 'You go on, and if you encounter a problem, I will resolve it for you.' This is what I meant when I talked about 'a battle of the nation,' and I saw [on TV] that you commented on this. I am not fighting on behalf of the nation. But I say that the outcome of the battle that Hizbullah is fighting in Lebanon, for better or worse, is an outcome for the nation. Defeat in Lebanon is defeat for the nation, and victory in Lebanon is victory for the nation, just like in 2000." [...] "For 23 years, we have been talking to our people, motivating them, talking about martyrdom, the honor of martyrdom, and the place of the martyrs. Do the Zionists, or those who encourage them, believe that I, or anyone in the Hizbullah leadership, fears martyrdom? We love martyrdom. We take precautions in order to prevent Israel from making any gains. But on the personal level, and as a personal aspiration, each and every one of us hopes to be destined to martyrdom at the hands of those people, the killers of the prophets and the messengers, and most hostile to the believers, as it says in the Koran."
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Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1185 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 6:20 pm: |
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One of the things not noted in this thread so far is that the "Hezbollah" fighters were overheard speaking Farsi ( the language of Iran) and the NY Sun reports bodies of slain "Hezbollah" fighters were transferred back to Iran via Syria. |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2597 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 6:27 pm: |
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Good lord. Then again, FvF, how much do you trust the NY Sun? Besides, it's possible Shiites might wish to be buried in Iran for religious reasons, or they might have been transported there for political reasons, don't you think? |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1187 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 6:29 pm: |
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Yes, it is damn close to Mecca there. |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1188 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 6:29 pm: |
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Yes, it is damn close to Mecca there. |
   
ae35unit
Citizen Username: Ae35unit
Post Number: 170 Registered: 2-2006

| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 6:38 pm: |
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Rastro, no of course not, and I wrote that, knowing that. I just don't like that strawman style. It's Hannitization. It's bullsh*t. |
   
Mtam
Citizen Username: Mtam
Post Number: 131 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 6:48 pm: |
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What strawman style? |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2598 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 9:49 pm: |
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Ae35unit, what exactly are you on about? Mtam, whose remarks here are rather temperate and lacking in any invective at all, has engaged in no "Hannitization". |
   
Nohero
Supporter Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5643 Registered: 10-1999

| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 10:24 pm: |
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Re: the transporting of bodies to Iran for burial. Obviously, there are Iranians working with the Hezbollah. That's been know for a while. As to whether a deceased individual was Iranian, the fact that his body was transported to Iran for burial doesn't settle the question. As J. Crohn pointed out: "Besides, it's possible Shiites might wish to be buried in Iran for religious reasons." That is always a possibility, despite what might be implied by FvF's response: "Yes, it is damn close to Mecca there." I'm not as much of an expert as FvF may be, of course, but I recall that the Saudi rulers are Sunni, and are not as hospitable to the Shia who make up Hezbollah, so burial in Mecca might not necessarily be an option (or even part of the tradition). More to the point (and, again, I am not the expert that others claim to be), there is a Shia tradition regarding burial near Shia shrines, such as at Najaf in Iraq, or Mashhad and Qom in Iran, no matter where the individual may have lived, or died. There may not be any significance at all, either way. It's just a thought that came to me, as I was reading these threads. |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1191 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 10:29 pm: |
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Nohero- And they are singing "lo yisa goy..." on the way there too !
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Nohero
Supporter Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5645 Registered: 10-1999

| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 10:39 pm: |
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Yes, thank you for lurking and waiting for me to post. I was just pointing out a fact which we all can learn, and use to interpret current events. |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1194 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 10:43 pm: |
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Well, I was waiting for Cindy Sheehan's interpretation of the week's events.... |
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