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joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 775 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 2:04 pm: |
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CAIR Gets DePaul Professor Suspended For "Offending" Muslim Students By Jim Kouri Jul 25, 2006 In my position with the National Association of Chiefs of Police, I get many reports, press releases and other documents on a daily basis. Because of time constraints, I may read perhaps one-third of them, giving priority to Department of Homeland Security and FBI reports. However, every once in a while I get something that angers me and compells me to research. Such is the case with the one report that describes the unfair, almost Stalinist treatment, of a Chicago educator whose only transgression is he supports Israel's right to defend itself from terrorists. Responding to what has been condemned as a violation of academic freedom, professors, scholars, and students worldwide signed a petition by The Scholars for Peace in the Middle East to reinstate Professor Thomas Klocek to his teaching position at DePaul University in Chicago, Illinois. Klocek was suspended from the university following a campaign launched by pro-Palestinian student groups and the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR). Klocek believes in Israel's right to exist as a sovereign Jewish state within safe and secure borders. CAIR and Muslim student groups told University officials that Klocek offended Muslim students when discussing Christian interests in Israel, disputing that Israeli treatment of Palestinians was akin to the Nazi treatment of the Jews, and then terminating the discussion when it appeared that the students were more interested in Israel-bashing than discussing the issues. Titled "A Petition to Reinstate Professor Thomas Klocek to DePaul University With No Prejudice or Penalty," the petition is to be delivered to DePaul's president and Dean upon its goal of 2,000 signatures. DePaul's Alleged Violations Of Academic Freedom In an interview with Walking Eagle Productions, a documentary film company covering the DePaul controversy, Klocek said that he was suspended by DePaul administration, and ultimately lost his position and teaching benefits, after engaging in an out-of-class argument with pro-Palestinian students at a student activities fair on campus. Klocek shared that he served 14 years a part-time adjunct professor in DePaul's School of New Learning and that he was considered a popular professor, with large class enrollments and received excellent student reviews, with no prior complaints about Klocek's behavior. But after engaging in heated discussion with two Muslim student groups at a Student Involvement Fair on DePaul's campus, the student groups Students for Justice in Palestine (SPJ) and United Muslims Moving Ahead (UMMA) went to the administration to call for Klocek's firing. Both groups were backed by CAIR's Chicago office, and other local Muslim advocate groups, some of whom called for even harsher punishment. Continue reading this article below Klocek said that although no third-party witnesses were provided by the offended parties, DePaul's Dean of the School of New Learning, Susanne Dumbleton, had him suspended without any hearing, and held his insurance benefits in jeopardy. Once Klocek was removed from his teaching position, Dumbleton then publicly castigated Klocek in DePaul's student newspaper, The Depaulia, stating that Klocek was being punished by the DePaul Administration for expressing what she deemed to be Klocek's "erroneous assertions" to the Muslim student groups. Christina Abraham, Civil Rights Coordinator for CAIR's Chicago branch office, granted an interview to Walking Eagle Productions to explain their reasons for filing the original complaint to DePaul on behalf of the student groups. Abraham stated that she believed all of the student group's allegations, and that they were serious enough to demand Klocek's immediate firing. First Amendment groups, such as the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), protested DePaul's actions. FIRE's then-president David French stated in its own press release that Klocek's suspension violated DePaul's policies guaranteeing academic freedom as well as its contractual promise of due process "because his statements were allegedly offensive." "While DePaul may now argue that the issue is one of professionalism, its public statements at the time of Klocek's punishment make it clear that Klocek's real crime was offending students during an out-of-class discussion of a controversial and emotional topic." said French. "Academic freedom cannot survive when professors who engage in debate on controversial topics are subject to administrative punishment without even the most cursory due process." A Peace Organization Rallies For Academic Freedom How did Scholars for Peace in the Middle East become involved in Klocek's defense? "SPME is an academic community of scholars." explains SPME President Dr. Beck, in an interview with Walking Eagle Productions. "And as such, we're trying to support another scholar on what we see as a violation of his academic freedom and due process. The goal is to raise awareness among faculty members that we may not be as safe as we think we are, and to get him reinstated without penalty." Klocek is undeterred and confident that true scholars will rise above such divisiveness, and support the petition on behalf of him. "The issue of free speech and academic freedom," says Klocek, "extends to all faculty members, part- and full-time, non-tenured and tenured alike." While the petition is open for everyone to sign, SPME is especially encouraging signatures from professors. SPME however, has expressed the important role students can play in circulating their petition professors in their own schools and classes, or contacting professors who remain active during the summer in online forums and web blogs. Jim Kouri, CPP is currently fifth vice-president of the National Association of Chiefs of Police and he's a staff writer for the New Media Alliance More articles from: Jim Kouri Email this article Print this page Submit An Article E-mail comments to Jim Kouri Your full name: Your email address: (e.g.: you@aol.com) Comments Your Comments Here © Copyright 2004-2005 by The Post Chronicle™ Top of Page PostChronicle.com is best viewed with an 1024x768 screen resolution tPC SPONSORS tPC
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cjc
Citizen Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5779 Registered: 8-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 2:06 pm: |
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http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mideast26jul26,1,4101483.sto ry?coll=la-headlines-world .....There was no immediate statement from the Israeli military, but Israel's ambassador to the United States said the incident was under investigation, and reacted sharply to Annan's allegation that the strike was deliberate. "I think this kind of rhetoric is deplorable, it's outrageous, and I hope he will apologize for that," Ambassador Daniel Ayalon said on CNN's "The Situation Room." He accused Hezbollah militants of positioning rocket launchers beside U.N. sites, a practice that has been reported by U.N. officials in recent days. I guess those reports never got to us.
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Phenixrising
Citizen Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1806 Registered: 9-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 2:44 pm: |
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"A Western diplomat familiar with preliminary U.N. assessments of the scene also said that it appeared the weapon that hit the bunker was precision-guided. The UN report says each time the UN contacted Israeli forces, they were assured the firing would stop. A senior Irish soldier working for the UN forces had warned the Israelis six times that their bombardment was endangering the lives of UN staff, Ireland's foreign ministry said." Had Israel responded to the requests, "rather than deliberately ignoring them", the observers would still be alive, a diplomat familiar with the report quoted." ******************* Hmmm…this was NO accident. |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12248 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 3:30 pm: |
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And the spin begins. From the news report I think it is notable that Ambassador Ayalon doesn't state that there was a launcher next to the UN bunker. If it was a precision guided weapon the Israel Air Force has a tape. Remember all those neat pictures from Desert Storm and Iraq?
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Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1201 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 6:01 pm: |
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This thread is truly the " idiots' delight". The gaggle of no-nothings and abused truths? So wonderful that the Jewish people have their own state and army that allows them self-defense and protection from their enemies, rather than relying on the " good will" of the world as when they were huddled in shtetls. So sad so many of the brave, z"l, have fallen. I conclude my comments to this pathetic thread with a song from the difficult hours of the '73 war by Chava Alberstein , " Lu Yehi"- "May it be" : "There is still a white sail on the horizon, opposite a black cloud. All we ask for, may it be. And in the evening windows, the light of holiday candles flicker, All we ask for, may it be. If only if it can be heard from all this, one prayer from my lips, All that we ask for, may it be. The end of summer, the end of the road, let them return to us safely. All that we ask for, may it be. And if suddenly, rising from the darkness, over our heads, the light of a star shines, All that we ask for, may it be. And grant tranquility, and grant strength, to all those that we love. And all we ask for, may it be."
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Glock 17
Citizen Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1587 Registered: 7-2005

| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 6:15 pm: |
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So you blindly follow Israel, Fact, with a total disregard for any factual information? |
   
Southerner
Citizen Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1350 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 6:59 pm: |
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I love this. |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2602 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 8:43 pm: |
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"If Israel is bombing UN personnel, I'm changing sides" Yeah, I guess you changed sides when NATO bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade too. |
   
Illuminated Radish
Citizen Username: Umoja
Post Number: 40 Registered: 6-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 9:35 pm: |
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It's not that unbelievable that they could bomb a UN outpost delibrately, and get away with it. Lots of other things are going on in this conflict, four deaths can be pretty easily glossed over. What bothers me, and what even bothers American media as of late, is how out of control the attacks in Tyre are getting. When I see American media spending more time talking about the lives of Lebanese children being lost, I question what moral grounds Israel still actually holds, especially when a normally pro-Israel media is starting to subtely say "hmmm...." I'm probubly going to get flamed for that one. But more importantly, I think what's more bothering is how uninvolved America is in all of this. Maybe we in America don't have nearly as much political sway as we think we have. Did Condi accomplish anything in Rome besides saying how nice a cease-fire would be? Does that bother anyone that America is so impotent in this? |
   
Southerner
Citizen Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1353 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:07 pm: |
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That's a funny name. |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2603 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:13 pm: |
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"But more importantly, I think what's more bothering is how uninvolved America is in all of this." Huh. Well, is war necssarily less bloody when America is "involved"? In 1999, NATO, under US leadership, took out the Chinese embassy in Begrade. How familiar does this sound?
The November 28 edition of Britain's Observer newspaper presented fresh evidence to back up its claim that the May 7 NATO bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade was deliberate. In an article entitled "Truth Behind America's Raid on Belgrade", the newspaper stated that far from being a blunder, "the pinpoint accuracy of the attack was in fact a deadly signal to Milosevic: seek outside help in Kosovo at your peril". The Observer's earlier report, on October 19 ("British newspaper says NATO deliberately bombed Chinese embassy in Belgrade"), was denounced by the Clinton administration and the Blair government in Britain. US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright described it as "balderdash", while Britain's Foreign Secretary Robin Cook said there was not a "shred of evidence to support this rather wild story". The November 28 Observer reports that the bombing of the Chinese embassy was carried out by a US B2 bomber that flew from Whiteman air force base in Missouri. It released what the Observer describes as "the most accurate air-drop munitions in the world-the JDAM flying bomb". The JDAM is accurate to a range of less than two metres, the newspaper notes. It uses four adjustable fins to control its position, which is in turn continually checked and rechecked by fixes from seven satellites. The bombing was so precise that it demolished the office of the military attaché, killing three people, while leaving the embassy's northern end untouched, which included the front entrance. A senior NATO air force officer is quoted as saying, "far from not knowing the target was an embassy, they must have been given architect's drawings." The US and Britain contend that the embassy bombing was the result of intelligence sources having used an old and unreliable map. The Observer systematically demolishes this claim. It cites the response the following day of an American colonel to criticisms by British, French and Canadian personnel of the supposed mistake. "Bulls h i t," said the colonel. "That was great targeting ... we put two JDAMs down into the attaché's office and took out the exact room we wanted ... they [the Chinese] won't be using that place for rebro [re-broadcasting Yugoslav radio transmissions] any more, and it will have given that bastard Arkan a headache." http://www.members.tripod.com/kosovo99/chinese.htm NATO also hit regional power stations that left Serbs without electricity and water. Did anyone care? Well, maybe a few Socialists did:
NATO has deliberately targeted both industrial and civil facilities, which included during the first 27 days: aircraft, pharmaceutical, appliance, electrical, chemical, tobacco, tubes, plastics, rail, hydro-construction, printing, shoe, automobile, machine, cotton yarn and surface coal mining. Some of the bombings were carried out during working hours—at the “Zastava” auto plant in Kragujevac, Yugoslavia's fourth largest city, 120 workers were wounded during a NATO attack. The bombing has also devastated small businesses. Over 250 commercial and craft shops in Djakovica alone were damaged. Refineries and warehouses storing liquid raw materials and chemicals have been destroyed, contaminating several thousand hectares of fertile soil, rivers and lakes, as well as polluting the air. Those attacked include: nine fuel storage/warehouses, two oil refineries, a service station, a chemical plant, a fertilizer plant, a thermo-electric power station and the petrochemical industry in Pancevo, which was demolished. Four agricultural complexes had been attacked and 250 hectares of land had been burnt down due to forest fires begun by bombings. The sea port of Bogojevo was also attacked. Sixteen hospitals and healthcare centers were hit, some partially damaged and others destroyed. A total of 190 schools had been damaged, including 20 faculties, 6 colleges, 40 secondary schools, 80 elementary schools and 6 student dormitories. The number of schools damaged would be the same as if every college, university, technical and community school in Ohio were attacked. Further damage to Yugoslavia's infrastructure included the destruction of one bridge and damage to another thirteen. Twelve rail lines had been destroyed, as well as three railway stations. Six major roads and highways had also been cut due to the bombing. Two bus stations had been destroyed, as well as a hangar full of new buses. In the Leskovac region alone over 3,500 industrial facilities and dwellings had been destroyed or damaged. Seven airports had been attacked and damaged and several thousand private houses across Yugoslavia were either destroyed or damaged—especially housing blocks in the cities of Aleksinac and Pristina. Public facilities and government buildings that had been damaged or destroyed include the Republican and Federal Ministry of the Interior in Belgrade; Security of the Ministry of the Interior and Hydro-Meteorological Station, both in Banjica; the TV-RTS studio, post office and refugee center, all in Pristina. The Tornik ski resort, the Divcibare mountain resort and the Baciste Hotel were also attacked. The city power plant in Krusevac and the Meteorological Station on Mt. Kopaonik had also been hit, and heavy damage was inflicted on four libraries in Rakovica. The refugee camp in Paracin was also attacked. Infrastructure damage was also caused to Batajnica's electrical power supply, Zemun's water supply, Bogutovac's power station and telephone lines, Pristina's power station and Polinje's hydroelectric power station. Across Yugoslavia 17 telecommunication and TV transmitters were attacked. Religious sites and buildings were not spared from NATO's bombing. Nine monasteries were damaged, many built between the twelfth and seventeen centuries. Four churches were damaged, as were religious monuments. A memorial complex was destroyed and two cemeteries also suffered damage; eight historical monuments and museums were also attacked. The latest figures for overall damage caused by NATO were presented on May 17 by the Yugoslav authorities to a United Nations mission which visited Belgrade. Damage caused directly by NATO's bombing is now estimated to be over $100 billion. More than 1,200 civilians are confirmed dead and over 5,000 have been wounded. Since the air attacks began more than 160,000 inhabitants of Kosovo and Metohija have been made refugees. These include ethnic Albanians and Turks, Serbs and Montenegrins. http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/bomb-m20.shtml But hey, if you don't believe them there are other sources:
Who NATO Killed Since the Nato airstrikes began on March 24 Serb officials say more than 2,000 civilians have been killed and more than 7,500 wounded. Nato has owned up to bombing raids and missile attacks that have killed 460 civilians, according to a tally by Agence France-Presse. By all accounts, the bombing was indiscriminate, killing farmers, suburbanites, city dwellers, factory workers, reporters, diplomats, people in cars, busses and trains, hospital patients, the elderly and children. Indeed, by our count, Nato bombing raids have killed more than 200 children. Hundreds more will almost certainly perish in the coming months, through environmental factors, such as poisoned water supplies and lack of electrical power to run vital hospital equipment. The following list of civilian casualties is far from comprehensive. We compiled it from daily reports by the Yugoslav Foreign Ministry and wire services, including Agence France Presse, Reuters and AP. More at: http://www.counterpunch.org/dead.html |
   
Rastro
Citizen Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3645 Registered: 5-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:16 pm: |
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What we really need to do... If we really want peace there, the US needs to propose the following: A NATO-led force immedaitely takes over for Israeli forces. Israel backs out of Lebanon and stops the bombings. The international force goes house to house, uncovers every stone, and does whatever is necessary to find and destroy the 10k missiles that Hezbollah has. They have 6 months to accomplish this. During that time, they also explain to Syria and Iran in no uncertain terms that if they continue to use Lebanon and Hezbollah as proxies for their fight, then the war will expand beyond the Lebanese border. There is no reason that Lebanon should be destroyed for Syria's deisre to pick a fight. I support Israel, but I am troubled by the way this effort is going. Radish, you need to find more sources if you really base your opinion on what the US press says. |
   
Glock 17
Citizen Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1596 Registered: 7-2005

| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:21 pm: |
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So basically the rest of the world is reponsible for cleaning up Israel's mess. Great. |
   
Wendy
Supporter Username: Wendy
Post Number: 2827 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:23 pm: |
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Glock, please. You seem to imply by your statement that Israel was the provoker. You can't really believe that. |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2604 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:25 pm: |
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I suppose I should also throw in some mention of the 3,000-3,800 civilian deaths resulting from the US aerial bombardment of Afghanistan.
* 11 October: Two US jets were said to have bombed the mountain village of Karam. The death toll was estimated at between 100 and 160. * 13 October: Bombs fell on the Qila Meer Abas neighbourhood, two kilometres south of Kabul airport. Four civilians were reportedly killed * 18 October: Some 47 civilians were said to have been killed when a central market place, Sarai Shamali, near Kandahar, was bombed. * 23 October: More than 90 civilians were reportedly killed when low-flying US gun ships fired on the farming villages of Bori Chokar and Chowkar-karez, north of Kandahar. * 31 October: An F-18 was said to have bombed a Red Crescent clinic in a pre-dawn raid, killing between 15 and 25 people. * 10 November: Villages in the Khakrez district were reportedly bombed, killing more than 150 civilians http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1740538.stm |
   
Glock 17
Citizen Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1597 Registered: 7-2005

| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:49 pm: |
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Did I ever say I supported the United States? |
   
Hoops
Citizen Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1727 Registered: 10-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:54 pm: |
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provoker? so Israel was poked and prodded and provoked until they were so annoyed that they had to retaliate? then they just lost their tempers and lashed out? I cant characterize what is happening that way. There is too much history and too much wrong on both sides to say one side was overly provoked. This much destruction does not come about on a whim. There is a very definite strategy behind these actions by the Israelis. They have a master plan and they are attempting something that they think will create safety for their people but that does not make what they are doing right. |
   
sbenois
Supporter Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15428 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 12:00 am: |
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Sure it does. Because if they don't do it no one else will. |
   
Glock 17
Citizen Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1601 Registered: 7-2005

| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 12:05 am: |
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Well then they shouldn't need the help of the world to clean up their mess, now should they?
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Hoops
Citizen Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1729 Registered: 10-2004

| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 12:06 am: |
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s - there must be a better way. |
   
kathleen
Citizen Username: Symbolic
Post Number: 593 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 1:07 am: |
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Mtam, I can only say it once again: Whatever peace agreement the Israelis and the Palestinians make is fine with me. My concern is with American policy. While I think it is obvious Israeli military strategies have been a failure for three decades (and one can see that sitting in Tahiti on vacation), I'm not going to start e-mailing the IDF or Ha'aretz. But do you ever consider that proximity to Israel may hinder seeing that? Certainly living there does for a great many Israelis. As for the Barak-Arafat negotiations, the only point of the Washington Post article (don't worry, no one read it) was to look back after the heat of the moment was over. It's called HISTORY -- and it's useful! The article proves your point: Domestic pressures on both parties prevented any realistic chance of a peace agreement even before the meetings occureed. Yet people like tjohn, years after the fact, still believe peace was at hand until Arafat alone wrecked it, and this falsehood has been used to gain American support for continuing to deny the Palestinians their rights, which is the underlying cause of all the bloodshed we see today. Many innocent people are dying in Israel and Lebanon and Gaza because of the incompetence and blindness of Israel's political and military leadership. One is not being "ivory tower" to speak plainly about it. Actually, I've discovered it takes some streetfighter grit to talk about it in the midst of a war, when one is surrounded by chauvanists with their insinuations that is illegitmate (or worse) when American citizens ask their own government to put conditions on American support for Israel -- but I do appreciate your efforts at civility.
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Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12253 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 4:26 am: |
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I think that a fair number of the civilian deaths in Iraq are among Hezbollah supporters who stayed in the "Forbidden City" area of Beirut and in the Shite villages in the south of Lebanon. Some of these people were just not going to be thrown out of their homes, others were supporting Hezbollah's military arm with supplies, medical assistance, etc. I watched a rather poor "performance" by the Israeli ambassador to the UN yesterday evening on TV. He indicated that he had no knowledge of the UN contacting Israel ten times. I think he used the word "alleged" in this connection. He also indicated that the TV stations were taken out because they were broadcasting "propaganda" and the four Lebanese military bases were bombed because Hezbollah is "part of" the Lebanese government. He didn't help the cause.
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Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1204 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 7:03 am: |
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Sorry for the spelling error, I meant to say " know-nothings". Bob K- You might benefit from reading the opinion piece calling for an investigation into the U.N. for not fufilling it's peacekeeping duties at: www.jpost.com Otherwise, I am outta this thread. It's been captured by the obtuse and the politically motivated, IMHO.
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tjohn
Supporter Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4565 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 7:22 am: |
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I looked up the definition of "obtuse and politically motivated". It means somebody who doesn't agree with you on any issue having faith-based underpinnings. |
   
Gordon Agress
Citizen Username: Odd
Post Number: 474 Registered: 8-2004
| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 7:26 am: |
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"Many innocent people are dying in Israel and Lebanon and Gaza because of the incompetence and blindness of Israel's political and military leadership." I could have sworn they were dying because Hezbollah and Hamas are lobbing rockets at cities without worrying whether they hit a tank or a kindergarten, and because they site themselves right next to civilians so the IDF kills a few of those when it comes to stop the rocket launchings. There would be many fewer dead innocents if these pusillanimous weasels would shoot at people in uniform and stay clear of people out. The Palestinians may have many legitimate complaints, but I don't care to live in a world where the rights and wrongs are sorted out according to who is willing to kill the most children.
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Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12255 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 8:00 am: |
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Fvf: The four soliders killed were to the best of my knowledge unarmed observers, not members of UNIFL. At present UNIFL is made up of an Indian battalion, who from the pictures appear to be Sikhs. A battalion is usually less than 600 soliders in most armies. I agree they have been ineffective, but that still doesn't justify killing them. |
   
Nohero
Supporter Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5657 Registered: 10-1999

| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 8:35 am: |
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Quote:Otherwise, I am outta this thread. It's been captured by the obtuse and the politically motivated, IMHO.
Apologies in advance, but that statement brings to mind my favorite movie line:
"I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!" |
   
Dave
Supporter Username: Dave
Post Number: 10249 Registered: 4-1997

| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 10:09 am: |
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No one told me there would be politically motivated posts here.
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Rastro
Citizen Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3646 Registered: 5-2004

| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 10:39 am: |
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Glock, if you're unwilling to help clean it up, then stop criticizing. If you want nothing to do with it, then simply ignore it. Don't feign concern for Lebanese and Palestinians just so you can rant against Israel. Though I rarely agree with this sentiment, it is apt appropriate in this context - if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem. |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2605 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 10:41 am: |
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July 27, 2006 An Unexpected Reason to Hope By David Warren Before we get to the uplifting substance of today's column, let me briefly skirmish with the innumerable correspondents who have filled my inbox with outrage against my justifications for Israel's attacks. They parrot what they have heard in the "liberal" media. The errors of fact I'm about to correct are beneath the elementary. But it is necessary to correct big lies as well as small. Item: Israel has attacked Lebanon, which is too weak to defend itself. This is a lie. The Israelis have made it abundantly clear they are not attacking Lebanon, but Hezbollah entrenched in Lebanese soil. Israelis, as anyone with any decency, feel sorry for innocent Lebanese caught in the crossfire. But as Israel's foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, put it to the German newsmagazine Der Spiegel: "Whether weak or strong, a government carries the responsibility for whatever happens within its country." She went on to hint the obvious: that Israel would prefer a Lebanon strong enough to disarm Hezbollah without Israeli help. Item: The Israeli military operations are "excessive", and include unnecessary strikes against Lebanon's infrastructure and capital city. This is a damned lie. Israel has been attacking Hezbollah in Lebanon, which necessarily includes infrastructure that Hezbollah uses. Even the attacks on the Beirut airport were to a purpose openly stated, and advertised in extensive leafleting and broadcasting before the airport's runways were cratered, and fuel depots taken out. From hard past experience, the Israelis knew Hezbollah would be using that airport not only to whisk their prisoners to safekeeping in Iran, but as a conduit to bring Iranian and Syrian advisers, and crucial supplies, in and out of the country. The strikes elsewhere in Beirut are overwhelmingly on the southern, Shia part of the city, where Hezbollah's masters have their command. Lebanese television and radio have themselves been broadcasting Israeli communiqués, clearly warning what they will hit, when, and why. The overwrought charge that Israel is "trying to destroy Lebanon" is an imposture. If the Israelis actually wanted to destroy all of Lebanon, they could carpetbomb the place. Item: There is a huge civilian toll. Statistics. And given the scale of the conflict, the number of deaths is not abnormally high. Our media have been giving running totals of civilian deaths in Lebanon that they should know are both wrong and misleading. They cannot know how many have been killed in Hezbollah's "hidey holes". Foreign reporters are in no position to distinguish between real civilians, and the Hezbollah fighters who blend among them. Even the United Nation's humanitarian point-man, Jan Egeland -- no friend of Israel -- has noted actual boasts from Hezbollah that their "human shield" strategy has got so many women and children killed, and so few of their own fighters. They cache their weapons in schools, hospitals, houses, apartment buildings. They hold civilians at gunpoint who are trying to flee. In light of all this, the stress on specific casualties -- for instance the poor little boy who was suffering hideously in a hospital in Tyre, that CNN went to town on, Monday night -- is a flagrant appeal to emotionalism, calculated to enflame misinformed audiences against Israel, throughout the West and the Arab world. But now we come to the paradox. Despite some of the best efforts I've seen, by our liberal media, to spread poison, there is a growing understanding of what is taking place. Better yet, the response of the Arab world is increasingly directed against Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran; and even against Iran's other client, Hamas in Gaza (now suing for peace). This is unprecedented. In a partly incoherent, rambling, and apocalyptic address on official Iranian TV, Sunday, President Ahmadinejad said, "Lebanon is the scene of an historic test, which will determine the future of humanity." Then, after condemning the unnamed leaders of various Arab regimes that had failed to align with Iran and Hezbollah, "This is 'the Day that all things secret will be tested'." Iran unquestionably ordered the rocket and kidnapping attacks with which Hezbollah and Hamas provoked the current Israeli reaction (though it may have been greater than they expected). The ayatollahs are probably also behind the current terror spike within Iraq. Their motive is quite obvious: to change the subject from the Western and growing Arab alarm about Iran's own emergence as a bellicose nuclear power. The ayatollahs are, further, trying to cement their claim to be the managing directors of the international Jihad. Ahmadinejad is right: this is "an historic test". But it does not follow that he is winning it. Instead, it appears, by pushing too hard and fast, Iran has opened a civil breach across the Muslim world between Shia and Sunni. The ayatollahs have thus created a new opportunity for the West to form alliances with Sunni Muslim states against Iran's aspiring regional hegemony, which the Bush administration is now rightly trying to exploit. Ahmadinejad has, in short, given us an unexpected reason to hope -- as Hitler did, when he began to make too many enemies. From the Ottawa Citizen, via a blog, "Real Clear Politics" |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2606 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 10:43 am: |
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Friedman's take:
Syria is the key in solving Middle East crisis By Thomas L. Friedman DAMASCUS, Syria — One wonders what planet Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice landed from, thinking she can build an international force to take charge in south Lebanon without going to Damascus and trying to bring the Syrians on board. Two Syrian officials made no bones about it when I asked their reaction to deploying such a force, without Syrian backing: Do you remember what happened in 1983, each asked, when the Reagan administration tried to impose an Israeli-designed treaty on Lebanon against Syria's will? I was there, I remember quite well: Hezbollah, no doubt backed by Syria or Iran, debuted its skills for the world by blowing up the U.S. Embassy in Beirut and the U.S. Marine and French peacekeeping battalions. This is not a knitting circle here. Can we get the Syrians on board? Can we split Damascus from Tehran? My conversations here suggest it would be very hard, but worth a shot. It is the most important strategic play we could make, because Syria is the bridge between Iran and Hezbollah. But it would take a high-level, rational dialogue. Rice says we can deal with Syria through normal diplomatic channels. Really? We've withdrawn our ambassador from Damascus and the U.S. diplomats left here are allowed to meet only the Foreign Ministry's director of protocol, whose main job is to ask how you like your Turkish coffee. Syria's ambassador in Washington is similarly isolated. Is this Syrian regime brutal and ruthless? You bet it is. If the Bush team wants to go to war with Syria, I get that. But the U.S. boycott of Syria is not intimidating Damascus. (Its economy is still growing, thanks to high oil prices.) So we're left with the worst of all worlds — a hostile Syria that is not afraid of us. We need to get real on Lebanon. Hezbollah made a reckless mistake in provoking Israel. Shame on Hezbollah for bringing this disaster upon Lebanon by embedding its "heroic" forces amid civilians. I understand Israel's vital need to degrade Hezbollah's rocket network. But Hezbollah's militia, which represents 40 percent of Lebanon, the Shiites, can't be wiped out at a price that Israel, or America's Arab allies, can sustain — if at all. You can't go into an office in the Arab world today without finding an Arab TV station featuring the daily carnage in Lebanon. It's now the Muzak of the Arab world, and it is toxic for us and our Arab friends. Despite Hezbollah's bravado, Israel has hurt it and its supporters badly, in a way they will never forget. Point made. It is now time to wind down this war and pull together a deal — a cease-fire, a prisoner exchange, a resumption of the peace effort and an international force to help the Lebanese army secure the border with Israel — before things spin out of control. Whoever goes for a knockout blow will knock themselves out instead. Will Syria play? Syrians will tell you that their alliance with Tehran is "a marriage of convenience." Syria is a largely secular country, with a Sunni majority. Its leadership is not comfortable with Iranian Shiite ayatollahs. The Iranians know that, which is why "they keep sending high officials here every few weeks to check on the relationship," a diplomat said. So uncomfortable are many Syrian Sunnis with the Iran relationship that President Bashar Assad has had to allow a surge of Sunni religiosity. Syrian officials stress that they formed their alliance with Iran because they felt they had no other option. One top Syrian official said the door with the United States was "not closed from Damascus. (But) when you have only one friend, you stay with him all the time. When you have 10 friends, you stay with each one of them." What do the Syrians want? They say: respect for their security interests in Lebanon and a resumption of negotiations over the Golan. Syria is also providing support for the Sunni Baathists in Iraq. Much as the Bush team wants to, it can't fight everyone at once and get where it needs to go. There will not be a peace force in south Lebanon unless it's backed by Syria. No one will send troops. I repeat: I don't know if Syria can be brought around, and we certainly can't do it at Lebanon's expense. But you have to try, with real sticks and real carrots. Syria is not going to calm things in Lebanon, or Iraq, just so the Bush team can then focus on regime change in Damascus. As one diplomat here put it to me, "Turkeys don't vote for Thanksgiving." |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12258 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 10:58 am: |
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I have read in several places that the probable price for Syrian support is the return of the Golan Heights. An interesting choice for Israel if this is the case. Wasn't this close to a done deal a few years ago? And yeah I admit to my own ignorance. The Jerusalem Post (as well as MSNBC early this morning) seems to be posting that the Israeli security cabinet is going to increase bombing and decrease ground attacks. I hope the bombing will be against the Hezbollah positions along the border, using the new bombs we supplied, and not against any remaining bridges, power plants and TV stations still operating in Lebanon.
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Glock 17
Citizen Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1610 Registered: 7-2005

| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 11:01 am: |
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Oh, Rastro... What is the solution again? |
   
tjohn
Supporter Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4566 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 11:26 am: |
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J. Crohn, Warren is preaching to the choir. Friedman, unusually for him, wrote a good essay. The problem, of course, is getting the Bush Administration to establish a decent relationship with Syria, a country currently listed as a junior Axis of Evil member. Actually, with the demise of Saddam Hussein, Syria may have been promoted to official Axis of Evil member.
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Paul Surovell
Supporter Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 655 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 12:42 pm: |
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The claim that all IDF bombs, missiles and artillery fire are aimed at Hezbollah targets is contradicted by the many examples of civilian targets as well as by simple logic -- Hezbollah appears to be virtually unscathed after more than two weeks of massive aerial and artillery attacks. The IDF attacks on UN facilities in Lebanon and the miscalculations in Bint Jubail are also clear evidence that there are serious problems with Israeli intelligence on Hezbollah. On a general level, it's pretty clear that the targets that have been bombed in Lebanon have had little impact on Hezbollah's military capability. In this morning's NY Times, there is a report at least one Israeli Government leader believes that everything in South Lebanon is a Hezbollah military target: Quote:“We received yesterday at the Rome conference permission from the world,’’ Justice Minister Haim Ramon told Israeli radio, “to continue this operation, this war, until Hezbollah won’t be located in Lebanon and until it is disarmed.’’ Mr. Ramon also raised the possibility of an expanded air assault, saying “all those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah.’’
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/27/world/europe/27cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=11540592 00&en=4b3b45c83901f891&ei=5094&partner=homepage Hopefully the Justice Minister is alone in this opinion.
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Gordon Agress
Citizen Username: Odd
Post Number: 475 Registered: 8-2004
| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 1:23 pm: |
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We know that the likes of Hezbollah use homes, schools, mosques, etc for operations and storage. I'm surprised that anyone would suggest we could distinguish a "civilian" target from a Hezbollah one so simply. "On a general level, it's pretty clear that the targets that have been bombed in Lebanon have had little impact on Hezbollah's military capability. " Maybe, but I don't think you are factoring in the various filters between yourself and the information you need. Hezbollah is hardly going to report its loss of men, rockets, more advanced missiles, senior personnel killed, prepared positions, etc. Their prestige depends on the appearance of victory, and they'll saying how great things are going no matter what happens. The long-term tests will be Hezbollah's ability to fend off its Lebanese enemies, the development of Lebanese politics for or against terrorism, and the willingness and ability of Hezbollah to launch rockets and conduct operations along the Israeli border. Those things will be very hard to observe in the short term. Maybe the IDF has stepped into a quagmire, and maybe Hezbollah underestimated both the Israeli response and the international pressure to cease fire and now finds itself in a more intense and protracted confrontation than it prepared for. We won't know which for a while, but I don't notice that the Israelis think they'll gain militarily from a ceasefire.
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Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12260 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 2:04 pm: |
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MSNBC reports so far today Hezbollah has been able to launch 48 rockets into Israel, which is down from the 100 they launched yesterday, which was the most in a single day so far in the war but still significant. The interesting part of this is that Tel Aviv hasn't been hit and that may mean that the IAF was able to neutralize the long range rockets, although it could mean Hezbollah is saving those for a finale. Israel has scaled back its objectives in the ground war. Instead of moving up to 20 miles into Lebanon to cleanse the area of Hezbollah as originally announced, they are now talking about only a couple of miles. I don't think with this limited incursion they are going to destroy Hezbollah, or even degrade its abilities all that much, which is a shame. It will also make it much more difficult to get European countries to supply troops for a stabilization force. Israel is calling up an additional 30,000 reservists.
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Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 3547 Registered: 9-2001

| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 2:10 pm: |
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I think Israel was the one surprised. Israel miscalculated the astonishing amount of arms and missiles and sophisticated ordinance that Hezbollah had amassed. IDF commandos are reporting far more extensive tunnels and bunkers than Israel had predicted were there. It is clear that Hezbollah was geared up for a lot more than simple defense. Iran and Syria had clearly armed them for a major offensive lasting for a long time. I deplore the civilian casualties in Lebanon, and I think that Israel miscalculated here as well and needs to find some way to back off--for moral reasons, as well as for image reasons. BUT, needing to find a way, and actually being able to find it are two different things. A ceasefire at this point leaves Hezbollah still heavily armed and entrenched in Southern Lebanon. How can Israel live with this while Hezbollah continues to rain bombs down on civilian areas of Israel? What has Hezbollah or Iran offered to incent Israel to stand down? And where is the moral outrage at Hezbollah and Hamas, which always attacks Israeli civilians, and have done so for decades? Rarely, if ever, do they target Israeli military positions. And where is the outrage at Hezbollah loading their rockets with ball bearings and shrapnel to multiply the damage to innocent Israeli civilians? Where are the cries of "shame" over Hezbollah cynically hiding its weapons and command posts in the middle of civilian neighborhoods, inviting attacks on these civilians? The world rightfully shudders at what is happening to civilians in Lebanon, but it does not accuse equally. Until there are controls on what Hamas and Hezbollah do to Israel, there is no incentive for Israel to stand down. |
   
kathleen
Citizen Username: Symbolic
Post Number: 594 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 2:17 pm: |
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"I don't care to live in a world where the rights and wrongs are sorted out according to who is willing to kill the most children." Is this an announcment you're switching sides in the war? Bear in mind, too, that children are not the only innocent lives being wiped out in this conflict. Today's reports pur the Lebanese civilian death toll at 400 or more, the Israeli civilian death toll at 17. "There would be many fewer dead innocents if these pusillanimous weasels would shoot at people in uniform and stay clear of people out." Might in not be even better if they just kidnapped uniformed military men instaed? Sounds like even you recognize there are some rules of engagement. Again, from Henry Siegman: "The vast disproportion between Palestinian civilian casualties from Israeli "mistakes" and Israeli casualties from Palestinian terrorist assaults also brings into question the distinction between the two. It suggests that the killing of Palestinian civilians is, at the very least, more a matter of Israeli indifference than a mistake. .... More important, judgments about the morality of Israeli military strikes that kill innocents cannot be made without reference to the political context within which the violence occurs. Even when Israeli attacks are carried out with care to avoid harm to civilians, "collateral damage," in which innocent Palestinians are killed or maimed, only can be justified if Israel also is engaged in a serious and realistic attempt to reach a negotiated solution." In 2001, journalist Chris Hedges published, in Harper's Magazine, a diary he kept while in Gaza. In one entry, he described how members of the IDF used loudspeakers to broadcast insults in Arabic at Palestinian children and taunted them to fight. When the children threw stones at the trucks, they were shot with rifles outfitted with silencers (the Israeli forces had brought ambulances with them in anticipation of the reaction). Hedges wrote: "Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered - death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo - but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport." http://home.mindspring.com/~fontenelles/hedges/hedges1.htm There is plenty of evil on both sides of this conflict. Innocent life in the region deserves protection, and their only security -- whether they be Israelis or Palestinians or Lebanese -- is to negotiate a peace agreement based on recognition of the territorial and human rights of every party to the conflict.
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Dave
Supporter Username: Dave
Post Number: 10252 Registered: 4-1997

| Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 2:20 pm: |
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Quote: Mr. Ramon also raised the possibility of an expanded air assault, saying “all those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah.’’
Can you say 'genocidal maniac'? Yikes. |
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