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Archive through July 31, 2006thempkathleen 40 7-31-06  3:19 pm
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Factvsfiction
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Post Number: 1251
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 4:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

kathleen-

I think your posts here on MOL about Israel, as well as your angry comment in the "demonizing islam" thread in response to other posters discussing reform in islam that, essentially, Judaism's comparative "reformation" would be conversion to christianity, speaks volumes, and for themselves.

I ain't buying what your selling here.

Sorry.
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kathleen
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Post Number: 613
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Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 5:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was mocking you, Fvf, and your bigoted crusade for a reformation of Muslims, and the equivalence was dead on. I'm sure everyone else got the point, so that dog won't hunt.

I agree with Hoops and, to answer Wendy: Mel Gibson was scurrilous about gays in Braveheart and did I miss your loud objections? People who continue to enjoy Woody Allen's movies aren't expressing approval of his interest in underage girls, nor was the Academy or the Cannes Film Festival sanctioning pedophilia when it handed out awards to Roman Polanksi for The Piano. Fill in the blank with anybody else you like (Jane Fonda with The China Syndrome, etc.)

And by the way, Mel Gibson isn't "Hitler." Isn't that trivializing the Holocaust?
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Eric Wertheim
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Post Number: 234
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Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 7:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Check out Hitchens piece in slate about Mad Mel:

http://www.slate.com/id/2146880/
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kathleen
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Post Number: 615
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Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 8:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I thought it sounded familiar. Hitchens argued that Gibson was a "fascist" when Passion of the Christ was released -- whereas I thought that was already evident from Braveheart (the last Gibson new release I watched).

http://www.slate.com/id/2096323/



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Wendy
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Post Number: 2858
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Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 9:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

kathleen, your usually pristine, sharp logic (with which I at times agree) has totally left you, imo. What, pray tell, do Woody Allen's or Roman Polanski's personal but despicable actions have anything to do with a statement that clearly lays the blame for the world's problems on a specific group? That is what my question POSED TO Hoops was about.

Should you not see the difference even from a trivial NJ girl, then, as they say, fuhgeddaboudit.
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steel
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Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 9:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From a movie lover:

I've come to the conclusion that Mel Gibson fancies himself as some sort of well-armed
avenging angel. In "The Patriot" and "Braveheart" he simply loved to see himself bathed
in the blood of his victims yet his horrific acts of violence are always performed in the
acceptable wake of avenging the murder of a loved one so that the audience won't think
he is too ugly of soul and turn against his character. All manner of mayhem, spewing and
skull-cleaving violence is thus made righteous and I believe in his view; -"beautiful".
From a "guy" point-of-view, pop-corn-popping movie enthusiast I liked a lot of it.

Then came "The Passion of Christ". Mel got serious and I have to agree with a disappointed
feverishly "born again" friend of mine (she refuses to give up on me) that the real message
of Christ was entirely missing ie: -the Resurrection or as I heard a minister express it simply
at a funeral recently, "without Easter there would be no Christianity". Beyond that it was just
bad, a bizarrely fixated snuff film featuring among the many caricatures, yes, jews whose low
character and place was made as clear by the director as the cartoon-size hook-noses on their faces.

I actually felt sorry for a man who somehow managed to make a movie about Jesus with no
conveyance of love, faith charity OR hope. There was no "Saviour" in "Christ the Savior".
How is that possible? -Was he perhaps thinking of making the sequel "Return of the Lord"
after indulging in the next upcoming bloodbath of "Apocalypto "?
(check-out the trailer: http://apocalypto.movies.go.com/) -more dark horror (pagans this time),
human-heart-in-hand blood and apparently yet again -a righteous lone soul, -with a family.

And now he and real life has made a cartoon of himself. A speeding drunk on a highway with an
open bottle of Tequila pulled over by the cops and railing about "The F_cking Jews".
Shall we pray for him? Will he be forgiven if he makes himself Jim Baker-teary-eyed and has a
Hollywood fundraiser for Israel after he gets out of the now "requisite" rehab?

Too bad, because when I was a bit younger I really loved Mad Max. -He was a Saviour.
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kathleen
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Post Number: 619
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Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 11:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wendy,

I'm afraid you will have to explain to me why thought crimes deserve blacklisting in Hollywood. I wasn't really old enough in the 50s to understand but I guess I can still learn. (And explain why Berlusconi got the ADL award after apologizing but Gibson's immediate apology isn't being accepted -- except by Oren Aviv, the head of Disney pix, which produced the soon-to-be-released Apocolypto.)

And this just in from James Mee, the police officer in LA who arrested Gibson:

CALABASAS, California -- The sheriff's deputy who arrested Mel Gibson for drunken driving said in an interview that he felt bad for damage to the star's reputation but hoped Gibson would think twice before drinking and driving.

Los Angeles County Sheriff's Deputy James Mee told The Associated Press on Monday that he considered it a routine arrest and did not take any comments made by Gibson seriously.

"I don't take pride in hurting Mr. Gibson," said Mee. "What I had hoped out of this is that he would think twice before he gets behind the wheel of a car and was drinking. That would be my hope that this would accomplish that. I don't want to ruin his career. I don't want to defame him in any way or hurt him."

Gibson has issued a public apology for his conduct without specifying what he said or did.

Mee, who is Jewish, would not comment specifically on what Gibson said.

"That stuff is booze talking," the deputy said in an interview outside his home. “There's two things that booze does. It amplifies your basic personality. If you are a laid-back kind of person, just an easy going kind of person, booze is going to amplify that and you'll be just sitting around going how it's a wonderful day.”

"But, if you are high-strung person, it's going to amplify that and all the bad things are going to come out," he said.

I'm waiting for Gibson to apologize for Braveheart and all the gay bashing he's done over the years, but I guess I'm alone in that.
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Eric Wertheim
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Post Number: 235
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Posted on Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 7:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kathleen:

Gibson is an active, ideological anti-semite. He has evasively denied the Holocaust in interviews (unlike his dad who has the guts to be an explicit denier), and he belongs to and finances some ultra-conservative Catholic splinter sect that is, among other things, not fond of the crrent Catholic teachings about Jews.

"Blacklisting" has connotation of government pressure, like in the 50s. While some may stay away, undoubtedly Gibson will find backers as long as there is money to be made from him.
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themp
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Posted on Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 10:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He's in rehab already.

His ABC project is cancelled.

When will he creep back into an interview chair as a "changed man" ready to lead the fight against prejudice?
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steel
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Posted on Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some rough "Cs" for Mad Mel:

There seems to be a contrary conundrum in Gibson's conscience that he cannot countenance in his character and now he is caught, contrite, cooked and cancelled.

He wants to kill a lot of people. He hates a lot of people but that would make him, ya know -a "bad person" and yet he so wants to be lauded and see himself as a righteous man so he unleashes the darkness through his characters under the guise of "good story-telling". Those acts which no goodly person could ever be seen doing he has his confederate characters (the bad guys) do for him such as in Braveheart when he has King "Long Shanks" blithely toss the son's gay lover out the window like so much trash, -naturally, I'm sure "solely" to show what an evil bad-azz the King was. The righteous William Wallace would never do such a thing. That would tarnish his perfection.

Then along comes real life that Gibson woefully cannot script and through the well-known magical powers of alcohol cannot control himself. What cross will Mel hang on now? How will he atone? How can he redeem himself so that he can again do the Lord's work without bad publicity? I'm sure his father believes that it is all a Jewish conspiracy.

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Factvsfiction
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Post Number: 1255
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Posted on Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 12:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

kathleen-

Your body of work on MOL regarding Israel and the " reformation" of judaism by conversion to christianity comment in the "demonizing islam" thread is more revealing than mocking IMHO kathleen.

Your attempt to sound balanced about bigotry against jews as well as muslims as a result has a lead balloon quality to it to me, but certainly, by all means, let others decide.
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3ringale
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Post Number: 324
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Posted on Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 6:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I doubt that Mel Gibson's Hollywood career will be hurt by anything less than a box-office flop. We'll have a better idea when we find out how many people are willing to shell out money to see a movie about a bunch of sweaty cannibals running around the jungle, or rainforest, or whatever its called these days.

It would also be interesting to learn how many of the loudest Gibson bashers voted for Jesse Jackson, the Hymie-town rhymer himself, when he ran for President.
Cheers
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joel dranove
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Post Number: 796
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Posted on Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 9:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's wait to read the full eight page police arrest report, including the pages the Police Commissioner, Baca, told Mee's supervisors to remove, and then insert days later as a supplement, but to be kept secret, and filed away in the detective bureau safe.
That recommendation was rejected, I heard.
So, we should all monitor thesmokinggun.com for this one.
jd
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Phil Legree
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Post Number: 34
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Posted on Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 10:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joel, it's been on the web for days. That's what started the whole thing in the first place. The redacted 4 pages were published first here, linked from the article here.
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Factvsfiction
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Post Number: 1266
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Posted on Tuesday, August 1, 2006 - 11:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perhaps Mel should now go into politics?

President of Iran?

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kathleen
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Post Number: 620
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 12:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric,

Apparently you didn't notice my very first post in this thread, which began:

"Did people here really not know Gibson was a bigot and misogynist?" I went on to object to the anti-Semitic and homophobic content of Gibson's most popular films. Check it out.

Blacklisting for political reasons was done in Hollywood by the studio heads themselves, in response to political posturing and pressure from elected government officials. What's the differnce in outcome if people directly put organized pressure on the studio heads to deny Gibson work, or bully neighbors into boycotting Gibson's movies by publicly accusing them of lacking morals if they go?

The real public problem with Gibson's anti-Semitism and homophobia is not that he articulates it when he's drunk on a Malibu roadside. The problem is that he put it on screen into wide release as a sober director and producer. Oddly, it appears to me that some people now demanding others deny Gibson work absolutely adored Braveheart when it came out despite all its obvious gaybashing. That seems to me far more morally obtuse than somebody who rents "Chicken Run" or "What Women Want" this weekend and likes them.

Also, may I remind that the most serious anti-social act Gibson committed Saturday night was driving drunk, not talking drunk, but only the cop who arrested him for drunk driving seems to be able to get clear about that?

Believe me, I thoroughly relish seeing Mel miserable and suffering for his anti-Semitism as much as the next sane person. He royally deserves every bit of it and I hope it's good for him, actually. But lecturing neighbors who simply declare they enjoy his acting and huffing they're unprincipled is arrant nonsense.

3ringale,

Neither Gibson nor his film The Passion of the Christ was nominated for an Oscar, the only time I can recall in the history of Hollywood that the year's biggest box office hit was treated that way. That cost Mel millions. It's certainly possible that ticket buyers will not want to go to "Apocalypto" because they (finally) figured out Gibson is anti-Semitic, but it's also possible they won't show up because (like me) they saw the trailer. But if it's actually a good movie, why shouldn't people go?

I am mystified by your remark that "it would be interesting to learn how many of the loudest Gibson bashers voted for Jesse Jackson."
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kathleen
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Post Number: 621
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 12:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

steel,

That's what most people in the fantasy biz do. Artists manage to do something heavenly with their demons, but Gibson gave up on being an artist some years ago.
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3ringale
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Post Number: 325
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 7:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

kathleen,
My remark about Jesse Jackson was in reference to his own anti-Semitic remarks from some years back. That's why I whimsically called him the Hymie-town rhymer.
Cheers

PS Are you familiar with these lyrics by the late Phil Ochs? I find them to be quite amusing. If I had the time, not to mention the talent, I would bring them up to date to reflect today's PC, diversity crazed enviroment:

Love Me, I'm A Liberal
by Phil Ochs
I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal



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Nohero
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 8:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3Ring - You appear to have missed the joke regarding the Phil Ochs song.

He was contrasting so-called "Liberals" (maybe those you would call "limousine liberals") with true progressives. He wasn't taking the conservative point of view.

Mel Gibson, however, is not a joke. He says he's apologetic, but who can tell right now if it's really sincere? Time till tell whether he learns the lesson that it's wrong to use stereotypes, bigoted language, and bascially "hate speech" about an entire people, race, religion, etc.
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kathleen
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Post Number: 622
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 9:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3ringale,

That only answers half my question. But never mind -- and ditto what Nohero said about the Ochs song. Seems up-to-date enough to me.

cheers
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tom
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Post Number: 5394
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 9:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sam Goldwyn said that in acting, sincerity is the most important thing. Once you can fake that you've got it made.
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kathleen
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Post Number: 624
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 10:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Exactly. Will people ever believe Gibson is sincere? He's an actor by trade -- which doesn't mean actors are never sincere. It just means most of us can't tell if they are or aren't, and that's not likely to change whatever Mel does. But maybe now people will take a more critical eye to the content of the movies he directs.

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eliz
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Post Number: 1626
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 10:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh geez, what's wrong with Chicken Run?
signed
Morally Obtuse (lesser version)
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3ringale
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Username: Threeringale

Post Number: 326
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 12:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nohero,
I realize that Phil Ochs was a socialist and that he was not advocating a conservative point of view. I think he was chiding the "limousine liberals" for not being authentic leftists or progressives or whatever. It's funny that "liberals" are squishy and uncomfortable about things like anti-Semitism, war and imperialism while a true leftist accepts these things. I don't really care what Mel Gibson says or thinks, drunk or sober. Why should anyone hyperventilate about "hate speech"? Should Gibson be sent to Gitmo? Mel Gibson is a big boy and this story will die down and people will decide if they want to go see a Mel Gibson film and that will be the end of it. Why do liberals want to turn the entire world into a simulacrum of a second rate liberal arts college faculty lounge? Are all Muslims to be good feminists? Are all Japanese supposed to be anti-racist? Are all Chinese supposed to advocate animal rights? Are all Africans supposed to embrace democracy? Whatever happened to real diversity?

kathleen,
Just to flesh out the Jesse/Mel comparison: I would be curious to know how many people who have loudly condemned Mel Gibson for what he said the other day, voted for Jesse Jackson when he ran for President in 1984 and 1988, since Jackson also has made some remarks considered to be anti-Semitic. One is a drunk actor and the other was an aspirant to the highest office in the land. I'd be a little more concerned about anti-Semitic statements from the latter, rather than from the former. I would think that Jackson did get some votes from the Gibson bashers because aside from his anti-Semitism, he is a pretty progressive guy. I'm not accusing you of voting for him, however. This article contains a few of his more interesting quotes:
http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/08/16/jackson/index.html

Cheers
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kathleen
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Post Number: 625
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 5:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3ringale,

You wrote:

"It's funny that "liberals" are squishy and uncomfortable about things like anti-Semitism, war and imperialism while a true leftist accepts these things. I don't really care what Mel Gibson says or thinks . . ." Are you now declaring yourself to be a true leftist? Even if you are, you've joined the wrong club. A true American leftist never accepted anti-Semitism. I wish I could say the same for the American rightwing, and they even managed to elect Richard Nixon to the White House twice.

I absolutely agree with you that Jesse Jackson's remarks, coming from a Presidential candidate, warrant far more concern than similar remarks coming from a drunk actor. However, Mel Gibson has not limited himself to making prejudicial propaganda in the dead of night in an isolated beach enclave. He puts those sentiments into the movies he directs (if not the ones he's hired to act in). Since he vigorously markets his seamy movies as being both history and even the word of God, they can be culturally toxic.

eliz,

I hope irony isn't totally dead on the internet. I know of nothing wrong with Chicken Run, in case that wasn't clear.

And speaking of irony, here is a chance to say that I am profoundly grateful today that bigots have never succeeded in "reforming" Jews into accepting Christ as the new bigots who clamor for "reforming" Muslims now dream of doing -- in case anybody actually missed the irony of that either, or imagines Fvf is in the habit of quoting without malice. Jewish resistance to that deadly project has been nothing short of heroic for centuries, and inspirational in the high value placed on integrity. Fvf seems wedded to his tactic of McCarthy-ite slurring, apparently in the belief eventually MOL'ers will swallow lies. Whether the lies are about me or somebody else's religion, he doesn't care. I guess he really doesn't live in Maplewood.
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TomR
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Post Number: 1216
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 6:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What was the homophobic message in Braveheart?

Its been years since I've seen it.

Thanks for help in understanding.

TomR
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joel dranove
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 6:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jessie Jackson calls NYC Hymietown, Al Sharpton talks of the diamond merchants, and they were sober.
So, what's new is that a drunken lout is destroyed by his words, but the others are still worshipped by the main stream media.
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Factvsfiction
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 6:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mel Gibson will undergo "rehab" volunteer his time working at some Jewish organization and will be in "People" magazine next year with a profile that rehabs his image.

People who don't understand that celebrity is shorthand for who has the best notoriety fail to understand how far our culture has dumbed-down the concept.

As for Jesse Jackson I recall a story about the bloody shirt and how he claimed he cradled the dying Martin Luther King,which was proven to be a lie. Pure opportunist willing to use whatever to get ahead, IMHO.

kathleen-

Nice try, but I think that people who actually read your posts have got your number. I personally would like to see you actually discuss islam rather than doing the unsupported bleeding heart liberal bit.
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3ringale
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 8:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

kathleen,
Let me say for the record that I oppose anti-Semitism, war and imperialism and I do not consider myself to be a true leftist, or any kind of leftist, for that matter. If the American right elected Richard Nixon twice, they got rooked.

The hypocrisy of the Hollywood crowd is breathtaking, considering that Roman Polanski won an Academy award for best director in 2002. This is a guy who gave quaaludes to a 13 year old girl before raping her. Nice, eh?

Cheers

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anon
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 9:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a Jew I always thought that Jesse Jackson's use of the term "Hymietown" was a very minor matter. How many Jewish politicians have never in private used the term "schvartzer" to refer to black people? How many white politicians have never made a similar racial comment about "those people" or "the element"? Has Jesse Jackson ever denied the holocaust? Has he ever made a remark about Jews being too powerfull or controlling things? The remark George Bush the First once made about pro-Israel lobbyists seemed to me more anti-semitic than "hymietown" a term that no one had ever heard before or has heard since.

Al Sharpton is an idiot, a media created "celebrity." I don't think the media "worships" him. They just like that he sells more papers.

I don't remember Jessie Jackson getting many votes from anyone at all in 1984 or 1988.

I do remember seeing and hearing Phil Ochs in person at a political rally singing "Love me I'm a Liberal". It was a left-wing attack on wishy-washy "moderate" hypocrisy.
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S.L.K. 2.0
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 9:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hogwash
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Nohero
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 9:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey, you're back.

There was nothing to talk about while you were gone, so don't worry about it.






That having been said, Anon makes some good points.
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Hoops
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Post Number: 1773
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Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 10:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would have thought that there might be a new and improved 3.0 version but <sigh> there you have it.

welcome back, dont tell anyone I said that
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3ringale
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Username: Threeringale

Post Number: 328
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Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 6:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

anon said,

I don't remember Jessie Jackson getting many votes from anyone at all in 1984 or 1988.

Jesse Jackson got 3.5 million votes in 1984 and won 5 primaries. He got 6.9 million votes in 1988 and won 11 primaries. Not too shabby.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Jackson




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Rastro
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Post Number: 3688
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Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3ring,

Who in Hollywood has given you reason to say they are hypocritical?

"The hypocrisy of the Hollywood crowd is breathtaking, considering that Roman Polanski won an Academy award for best director in 2002. This is a guy who gave quaaludes to a 13 year old girl before raping her. Nice, eh?"

I haven't heard anyone from Hollywood say anything about Mel's tirade. And certainly no one saying anything about not working with him in the future. Perhaps you're equating suppositions made here on MOL with actual facts.
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kathleen
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Username: Symbolic

Post Number: 626
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Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 10:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3ringale,

You'll have to take up Polanksi with Wendy. I think the Academy did the right thing on the merits by loading honors onto The Piano and not bothering with Passion of the Chirst. As I indicated before, what actors and directors do off-screen doesn't govern how I view their movies. I've never stopped myself from watching a Charlton Heston classic even though I'm repulsed by his NRA activities. I think Sean Penn is a great actor and deplore his wishing colon cancer on other people because he doesn't like their views. I gather The Naked Gun series will remain wildly popular movies despite the starring role played by O.J. Simpson, and I still laugh at them too.

I do see why some people's sensitivities cause them to no longer be able to enjoy movies when a star's off-screen behavior offends their morals. But I think the attempt to impose on others boycotts and blacklists is wrong and really bad for the culture. If I understood Wendy correctly (and I'm not sure I do), she or tjohn is saying anti-Semitism is so terrible and morally degenerate it warrants a Hollywood blacklist or condemning people who buy a ticket to Tequila Sunrise2 as unprincipled. I think that road head exactly where nobody wants to go, and history proves it. I certainly won't go there, even as I fully respect Wendy's or tjohn's choice not rent Chicken Run for their own personal weekend entertainment.

fvf,

You're right. Put up that entire post of mine from the Demonizing Islam thread. People can read me for themselves and see exactly where I stand on religious bigotry and malicious discussions of somebody else's religion.
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kathleen
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Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 10:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tom,

The criticisms of homophobia in Braveheart were so common and noisy when it was released that Gibson made a big show of meeting with leaders of the gay community and having them on the set watching the shooting of his next film. Reading Gibson's most recent statement, I see he is now promising to meet with leaders of the Jewish community. Mel's gone into the business of doing sequels to his own apologies for bigotry.

Steel alluded to the homophobia in Braveheart in his previous post, but I dug up this for you on the Internet, a review of Braveheart that appeared in Newsday when it was released which talks about the issue at length:

http://www.qrd.org/qrd/media/print/gabriel.rotello/1995/gays.should.beware.men.i n.kilts-06.01.95




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3ringale
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Username: Threeringale

Post Number: 329
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Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 12:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rastro,
I guess I could say the Holywood crowd is hypocritical in general, but I thought I saw an item about an ad signed by some big names condemning Mel Gibson. I just spent 5 minutes looking for it and came up empty handed. Maybe this heat is starting to get to me and I am confusing MOL with the real world?

kathleen,
I agree with you that it is wrong to skip a film because you don't like the actor's or director's politics or off-screen antics. I see them as entertainers and if they can do that job, the rest matters very little. If you hire a plumber to fix a leaky pipe, what does it matter if he votes Democratic or Republicanm as long as the pipe is fixed? That said, I feel compelled to add that there probably won't be anymore sequels to the Naked Gun series with O. J. Simpson.....
Cheers
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Wendy
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Post Number: 2880
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Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 1:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Quote:

If I understood Wendy correctly (and I'm not sure I do)




You don't. You took one question I posed to Hoops and have now created Wendy's outlook and viewpoint about Hollywood. It's incorrect. Let's leave it at that.
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tjohn
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Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 2:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I agree with you that it is wrong to skip a film because you don't like the actor's or director's politics or off-screen antics. "

It certainly isn't wrong. Actually, depending on the off-screen antics, it is could well be right to boycott their work.
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Nancy - LibraryLady
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Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 3:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is absolutely right not to give my money to support someone who holds views antithetical to my beliefs. I don't buy Domino's Pizza (or Bunnys for that matter) and I won't give my money to a Mel Gibson film so he can use his profits to continue to spew his anti-semitic venom. I don't shop at WalMart and I buy Ben and Jerry's. Your montary support talks and it talks loudly.
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themp
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Post Number: 3137
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Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 3:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

NOONAN: You're going to have to go on the record. The Holocaust happened, right?

MEL GIBSON: I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. And my dad also knows that there were internment camps where many people died. Now, his whole thing was about the numbers. I mean atrocities happened. The thing with him [my father] was that he was talking about numbers. I mean when the war was over they said it was 12 million. Then it was six. Now it's four. I mean it's that kind of numbers game. I mean war is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million people starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century 20 million people died in the Soviet Union. Okay? It's horrible.
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frannyfree
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Username: Frannyfree

Post Number: 225
Registered: 1-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 3:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Nancy-Library Lady.
I vote for things in the public arena with my financial power.
Would you see a movie made by a Nazi?
Politcal Activism is a right for any citizen, however, you must then live with the consequences. If a Hollywood actor or director wants to let us know his politcal views, he takes the chance of angering half the population. That, too, is ok. But he must live with the fallout. It is marketing.
Some actors will NEVER get involved in politics because for them it is all about their art and they do not want the fallout to cloud what they are doing.
I can't watch Susan Sarandon without thinking about her politics..it gets in the way of the art.
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Eric Wertheim
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Username: Bub

Post Number: 242
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Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 4:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Bill Maher is right, this is about a religious disease, not a drinking disease. Its a good demonstration about how religion lets us evade responsibility for our chosen values and prejudices. I'm sure Gibson tells himself that God condemns the perfidious Jews (and the queers etc.) BUT he personally doesn't hate them because he's a Christian and must love everybody. Of course, a few drinks later and the phony, self-serving distinction collapses.
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3ringale
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Username: Threeringale

Post Number: 330
Registered: 1-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 7:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nancy-LibraryLady,
I don't eat Domino's pizza because it tastes like cardboard. What's wrong with Bunny's pizza? I've never had one, but I'd like to know. I've never set foot in a Wal-Mart and I think Ben and Jerry are a couple of pinkos. Besides, when Breyers is on sale for half price.....

frannyfree,
I've never watched a film by Leni Riefenstahl, but I would probably watch one if it didn't cost anything.

Cheers
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joel dranove
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Username: Jdranove

Post Number: 828
Registered: 1-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 9:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You owe it to yourself to see Triumph of the Will, to witness the vast outpouring of intoxicated love for Hitler, and see a modern society almost at the point from which it went on to destroy the world in which it gained power, and itself.
A frightening documentary.
Not a movie.
A nightmare that happened.
jd
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tjohn
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Username: Tjohn

Post Number: 4619
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Triumph of the Will was a propaganda film, not a documentary. I don't question that Hitler was enormously popular in Germany, but Leni Riefenstahl would not have gotten too far if she focused on those who had doubts about Hitler.

Triumph of the Will set the standard for propaganda and has been studied by political hacks every since.

One could argue that George Bush's Mission Accomplished stunt was a knock-off of Hitler flying into Nürnberg.
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Nohero
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Post Number: 5694
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Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 10:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I first saw Triumph of the Will in 1977, back in the days before videos and DVDs made all these things more available, in a history class where the professor had a complete print.

It is both a frightening documentary, and a propaganda film. From our vantage point, safely removed from the time and place depicted, it was a demonstration of the dangers of militant nationalistic enthusiasm.

I'm surprised Mr. Dranove even mentioned it, because there are no Muslims in it at all, if I'm not mistaken.
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3ringale
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Username: Threeringale

Post Number: 331
Registered: 1-2006
Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 7:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But there are certainly affinities between Islam and National Socialism as Srdja Trifkovic points out:


To understand Islam's record with its non-adherents, one should compare it not to Judaism nor Christianity, but rather match it against modern totalitarian ideologies, notably Bolshevism and National Socialism. Each explicitly denied the legitimacy of any form of social, political, or cultural organization other than itself Stalin's forma mentis was different from that of Khomeini only in quantity, not in quality. The latter's statement that the Muslims have no choice but to wage "holy war against profane governments" until the conquest of the world has been accomplished was Khrushchev's "We shall bury you" wrapped in green instead of red. "Peaceful coexistence" was but jihad under another name. Islam, communism, and Nazism sought an eschatological shortcut that would enable the initiated to bypass the predicament of a seemingly aimless existence, while explicitly replacing Christian grace with the gnostic mantras of "surrender" ("Islam"), "dialectical materialism," "Volksgemeinschaft."

Nazism was the least coherent of the three; but it was among the Nazis (most notably with the architect of the holocaust, Heinrich Himmler) that Islam found its most willing promoters and collaborators in the pre-multicultural Europe. Himmler's hatred of "soft" Christianity was equal to his liking for Islam, which he saw as a masculine, martial religion based on the SS qualities of blind obedience and readiness for self-sacrifice, untainted by compassion for one's enemies. (While Hitler did not think much of Himmler's neo-pagan mysticism, he was happy to let Islam become the "SS religion.") By creating an SS division composed of Bosnian Muslims, Himmler sought to enhance the links between Nazi Germany and the Islamic world. One of his closest aides, Obergruppenfuhrer Gottlob Berger, stated that

a link is created between Islam and National-Socialism on an open, honest basis. It will be directed in terms of blood and race from the North, and in the ideological spiritual sphere from the East.


http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/Chronicles/February1999/0299Trifkovic.htm

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J. Crohn
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Post Number: 2648
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Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 11:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wikipedia:


Mohammad Amin al-Husayni (ca. 1895 - July 4, 1974, alternatively spelt al-Husseini), the Mufti of Jerusalem, was a Palestinian Arab nationalist and a Muslim religious leader. Known for his anti-Zionism, al-Husayni fought against the establishment of a Jewish state in the territory of the British Mandate of Palestine. To this end, Husayni collaborated with Nazi Germany during World War II and helped recruit Muslims for the Waffen-SS. Recent Nazi documents uncovered in German Minstry of Foreign Affairs and the Military Archive Service in Freiburg [1] by two researchers from Stuttgart University found that the Nazis had planned to exploit Arab friendship for their planned landing in Palestine and murdering of about 500,000 European Jews who had taken refuge there. In their book the researchers concluded that "The most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem".[2].

...

In 1933, within weeks of Hitler's rise to power in Germany, al-Husayni sent a telegram to Berlin addressed to the German Consul-General in the British Mandate of Palestine saying he looked forward to spreading their ideology in the Middle East [citation needed], especially in Palestine and offered his services. Al-Husayni's offer was rejected at first out of concern for disrupting Anglo-German relations by allying with an anti-British leader. But one month later, Al-Husayni secretly met the German Consul-General Karl Wolff near the Dead Sea and expressed his approval of the anti-Jewish boycott in Germany and asked him not to send any Jews to Palestine. Later that year, the Mufti's assistants approached Wolff, seeking his help in establishing an Arab National Socialist (Nazi) party in Palestine. Wolff and his superiors disapproved because they didn't want to become involved in a British sphere of influence, because the Nazis desired further Jewish immigration to Palestine, and because at the time the Nazi party was restricted to German speaking "Aryans" only.

On 21 July 1937, Al-Husayni paid a visit to the new German Consul-General, Hans Döhle, in Palestine. He repeated his former support for Germany and "wanted to know to what extent the Third Reich was prepared to support the Arab movement against the Jews." He later sent an agent and personal representative to Berlin for discussions with Nazi leaders.

In 1938, though Anglo-German relations were a concern, Al-Husayni's offer was accepted. From August 1938, Husseini received financial and military assistance and supplies from Nazi Germany and fascist Italy. From Berlin, al-Husayni would play a significant role in inter-Arab politics.

...

Upon al-Husayni's arrival in Europe, he met the German Foreign Minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop on November 20, 1941 and was officially received by Adolf Hitler on November 28, 1941 in Berlin. He asked Hitler for a public declaration that "recognized and sympathized with the Arab struggles for independence and liberation, and that it would support the elimination of a national Jewish homeland". Earlier, al-Hussayni submitted to the German government a draft of such a declaration, containing a clause:

Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements, which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic (völkisch) interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy.[2]

Hitler refused to make such a public announcement, but "made the following declaration, requesting the Mufti to lock it deep in his heart:

1. He (the Führer) would carry on the fight until the last traces of the Jewish-Communist European hegemony had been obliterated.
2. In the course of this fight, the German army would - at a time that could not yet be specified, but in any case in the clearly foreseeable future - gain the southern exit of Caucasus.
3. As soon as this breakthrough was made, the Führer would offer the Arab world his personal assurance that the hour of liberation had struck. Thereafter, Germany's only remaining objective in the region would be limited to the Vernichtung des...Judentums ['destruction of the Jewish element', sometimes taken to be a euphemism for 'annihilation of the Jews'] living under British protection in Arab lands.." [3]

The Mufti established close contacts with Bosnian and Albanian Muslim leaders and spent the remainder of the war conducting the following activities:

* Radio propaganda on behalf of Nazi Germany
* Espionage and the fifth column activities in Muslim regions of Europe and the Middle East
* Assisting with the formation of Muslim Waffen SS units in the Balkans
* The formation of schools and training centers for Muslim imams and mullahs who would accompany the Muslim SS and Wehrmacht units.

...

The Mufti's knowledge about the holocaust while living in Nazi Germany has been debated with the Mufti himself denying any such knowledge after the war. Testimony presented at the Nuremberg trials, however, accused the Mufti of not only having knowledge about the holocaust but of also actively encouraging the initiation of extermination programs against European Jews. Adolf Eichmann`s deputy Dieter Wisliceny testified during his war crimes trial in 1946 that ... "The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chambers of Auschwitz."

When the Red Cross offered to mediate with Adolf Eichmann in a trade prisoner-of-war exchange involving the freeing of German citizens in exchange for 5,000 Jewish children being sent from Poland to the Theresienstadt concentration camp, Husseini directly intervened with Himmler and the exchange was cancelled, although there is no evidence that his intervention prevented their rescue.[citation needed]

Among the sabotage al-Husayni organized was an attempted chemical warfare assault on the second largest and predominantly Jewish city in Palestine, Tel Aviv. Five parachutists were sent with a toxin to dump into the water system. The police caught the infiltrators in a cave near Jericho, and according to Jericho district police commander Fayiz Bey Idrissi, "The laboratory report stated that each container held enough poison to kill 25,000 people, and there were at least ten containers."[5]

Recent Nazi documents uncovered in the German Minstry of Foreign Affairs and the Military Archive Service in Freiburg [6] by two researchers, Klaus Michael Mallmann from Stuttgart University and Martin Cüppers from the University of Ludwigsburg, indicated that in the event of the British being defeated in Egypt by Field Marshal Erwin Rommel's Afrika Korps the Nazis had planned to deploy a special unit called Einsatzkommando Ägypten to exterminate Palestinian Jews and that they wanted Arab support to prevent the emergence of a Jewish state.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni
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kathleen
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Username: Symbolic

Post Number: 632
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 6, 2006 - 10:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How simple! Mel Gibson is Hitler. Saddam was Hitler. Muslims are Hitler. And nobody in America ever consorted with Nazis or whitewashed their crimes.

Nancy LibraryLady,

I take it on faith that you are able to function in your workplace making a clear distinction between the personal political beliefs of artists and whether their works deserve to stocked on library shelves for residents of South Orange. I mean, I'm sure whether or not you agree with Susan Sarandon that you don't ban the film version of Little Women on library shelves. Correct? Likewise, I would imagine I can find works by T.S. Elliot and Ezra Pound in the library. I don't think anyone wants to dissuade you from personally not buying Domino's pizza if you feel it goes against your politics. All anybody is saying is that just as you can separate the off-screen Mel Gibson from the on-screen Mel Gibson when it comes to having his "Hamlet" available at the library, other people can rent a Mel Gibson movie from Blockbuster and they are NOT supporting Mel Gibson's views by doing so.

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kathleen
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Username: Symbolic

Post Number: 633
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Posted on Sunday, August 6, 2006 - 10:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PS: It is not only "political hacks" who have watched Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will." It has been studied by almost every subsequent director who has made epic and "big screen" films (and you can see it in their shots). Riefenstahl's films, along with "Birth of the Nation," are carefully studied in film schools for their pioneering technical innovations as well as for illustrating the dangers and seductions of cinema when used to make propaganda.

I think if people don't have a problem with Joel Dranove and Nohero watching the purely Nazi "Triumph of the Will," they shouldn't be asking other people to stop watching Mel Gibson's movies.
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Dave
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Username: Dave


Post Number: 10343
Registered: 4-1997


Posted on Sunday, August 6, 2006 - 11:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Srdja Trifkovic was a big supporter of Slobodan Milosovic and enjoys using Hitleresque hate speech against Muslims - eg, "Islam is a violent cult characterized by the fundamental lack of love".
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3ringale
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Username: Threeringale

Post Number: 333
Registered: 1-2006
Posted on Monday, August 7, 2006 - 7:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dave said,

Srdja Trifkovic was a big supporter of Slobodan Milosovic

I think this is wrong. The neo-con website frontpagemagazine.com had to publish an apology and correction for making the same charge. You can read details here:

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/News/Trifkovic/NewsST011703.html

But I do think that Trifkovic does tell the truth about Islam.

Cheers

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