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Phenixrising
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Username: Phenixrising

Post Number: 1816
Registered: 9-2004


Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 2:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rastro,

They are obstructing efforts, however, this whole crisis will give them further excuse.
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Rastro
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Username: Rastro


Post Number: 3663
Registered: 5-2004


Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 2:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They don't NEED further excuse. They're already blocking our efforts.

And this does not give them excuses. It simply gives them the ability to claim tit-for-tat.
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Phenixrising
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Username: Phenixrising

Post Number: 1817
Registered: 9-2004


Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 3:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

agreed
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Phenixrising
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Username: Phenixrising

Post Number: 1818
Registered: 9-2004


Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 3:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and... CNS? Really?

Okay…this from the Associate Press.

Arab support for Hezbollah grows

By DAVID RISING,
Associated Press Writer

CAIRO, Egypt - Many Arab leaders responded with quick condemnation when Hezbollah militants kidnapped two Israeli soldiers this month. Some of the harshest words were from Egypt and Saudi Arabia, Sunni Muslim-led U.S. allies that both said the Shiite militants' "adventures" risked destabilizing the Middle East.

But as the fighting stretches into its third week and the civilian casualties climb from Israel's Lebanese offensive, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries are shifting the focus of their criticism from Hezbollah to Israel.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060728/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_arab_respons e

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kathleen
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Username: Symbolic

Post Number: 599
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 5:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rastro,

Absolutely agree that America's interests are identified (one hopes) through informed, honest democratic debate. But to say there were inevitably be disagreement doesn't mean there is no such as an American vital interest, rooted in our allegiance to our Constitution and what we have learned first hand from our history. Politics is essential to democratic governance, with no guarantee wisdom always wins. But I think experience shows that it isn't hard to figure out what America's foreign policy and national security interests are once you expose the lies.

World peace is of course desirable. Recognizing that does not tell you how America should act as a nation to protect its interests when war breaks out.

It's really sad to me that people seem unequipped to discuss this war or Middle East policy in the only way that truly matters from this zip code: What is in America's best interest to do right now? Britain's Economist did a better job figuring it out, and they don't live here or raising the next generation of Americans.

Yes, I read The Plot Against America. I thought it was a terrific piece of fiction. Very effectively drawn.
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Eric Wertheim
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Username: Bub

Post Number: 224
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 5:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's a little early to be making final judgments about winners and losers in this war, as many people have tried to do (here, media, blogs etc.). Yes Hezbollah is tough. They did not all run away to Beirut. But one cannot make judgments based on a relatively small engagement in a small town where the IDF was either ambushed or just stumbled into a Hezbollah attack. The IDF could have first flattened the buildings they were searching, in which case we would have heard that there were only civilians living there.

Also, does anyone know how many months it took the allies in WWII to score anything like a victory? A LONG time (I'm not making the comparison for moral purposes either - just to demonstrate that its a little early to call the winner)

I would add that the Economist makes the U.S. newsweeklies look like comic books, although I have not read the latest re Lebanon.

go Peace!
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kathleen
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Username: Symbolic

Post Number: 602
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 5:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gee, whatever happened to the Six-Day war? (Might still be too soon to figure out who won.)

I think Condi's just waiting for people to lose interest.

She figures by next Wednesday America will care less about who lives and dies in Lebanon and Israel than whether it's Alison or Natalie who gets the boot on So You Think You Can Dance. The whole world won't be watching.

Eric,

That Economist "leader" is worth looking at, even if events have already moved beyond it.
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Illuminated Radish
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Username: Umoja

Post Number: 45
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 9:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric,

I know that no matter what Lebanon loses, and they won't be all that happy about losing.
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Gordon Agress
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Username: Odd

Post Number: 477
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 9:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's in the nature of an alliance that our interests occasionally suffer while our friends advance their own. We'd be poor friends to insist that our allies serve our interests always, or that we should never suffer to support them. Our relationship with Great Britain didn't seem to have a lot of upside in 1940, either. For better or worse, we played a role founding Israel, and I think we have an obligation to see to it they aren't pushed into the sea.

I am very sure our identification with Israel is hurting us right now as the "international community" complains about Lebanese civilian casualties. But those complaints are just simplistic without attention to Hezbollah's contribution to them through its operational strategies and its overall behavior. And allowing them to drive our behavior will only encourage Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, the insurgents in Iraq, the IRA, the Tamil Tigers, the narcoterrorists, etc etc. The world is full of violent, evil people and we are all better off showing them that the resolve to resist them is general.

What would be really nice, and truly helpful, would be a Security Council resolution that anyone supporting terrorism in any way will be held sternly accountable -- drafting in Persian would be the right touch -- and a bunch of visits from a variety of foreign defense ministers to Jerusalem asking if there was any way they might be of service? THEN maybe the weasels would start to get the message that there is no excuse in anyone's eyes for their crap, and we might be able to get some where.

And I'm not sure I would mind if the whole world noted that once we'd shot the last Hezzie we'd start talking about isolating both the Israelis and the Palestinians until they get their problems worked out -- on balance, a much worse proposition for Israel, which actually has an economy worth worrying about. Israel has done a lot of wrong and the Palestinians have a lot of legitimate complaints -- I just refuse to allow anyone to plead their case by shooting at kids.

Whether or not the fighting is in Israel's interest remains to be seen. The assessment that Lebanese politics would surely have turned against Hezbollah, or that Hezbollah wouldn't have become even more dangerous, strikes me as awfully glib.

But it is interesting to hear people complain about how uneducated everyone else is, and then jump to the simplisticest solution at hand. Likewise the deployment of the word "moron", always a sign that your arguments are going well.

By the way, I read the Economist every week -- it's terrific -- so I noted a month ago when they reported that the Palestinians claimed the IDF killed a family on the beach, without noting that the IDF said it hadn't been firing at that time and place and had evidence pointing to a Hamas rocket. It was an interesting departure from balance for a generally worthwhile magazine.


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Spinal Tap
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Username: Spinaltap11

Post Number: 102
Registered: 5-2006


Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 10:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is an illuminating story from Opinion Journal on the guy that Hezbollah wants freed in exchange for the IDF soldiers:

When Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers two weeks ago, provoking the current conflagration, the Shiite terrorist outfit apparently intended to use them as bargaining chips to demand the release of prisoners. Press reports often discuss this as if there were an equivalence between the Israeli soldiers, who committed no crimes but were simply defending their own country within its borders, and Arab terrorists. So it's worth pointing out just who the "prisoners" in Israeli hands are.

According to the BBC "the prisoner Hezbollah wants most" is Samir Qantar. On April 22, 1979, Qantar murdered 28-year-old Danny Haran and his 4-year-old daughter and caused the death of another Haran daughter, age 2. Haran's widow, Smadar Haran Kaiser, describes the crime (she transliterates the murderer's name as "Kuntar"):

It had been a peaceful Sabbath day. My husband, Danny, and I had picnicked with our little girls, Einat, 4, and Yael, 2, on the beach not far from our home in Nahariya, a city on the northern coast of Israel, about six miles south of the Lebanese border.

Around midnight, we were asleep in our apartment when four terrorists, sent by Abu Abbas from Lebanon, landed in a rubber boat on the beach two blocks away. Gunfire and exploding grenades awakened us as the terrorists burst into our building. They had already killed a police officer.

As they charged up to the floor above ours, I opened the door to our apartment. In the moment before the hall light went off, they turned and saw me. As they moved on, our neighbor from the upper floor came running down the stairs. I grabbed her and pushed her inside our apartment and slammed the door.

Outside, we could hear the men storming about. Desperately, we sought to hide. Danny helped our neighbor climb into a crawl space above our bedroom; I went in behind her with Yael in my arms. Then Danny grabbed Einat and was dashing out the front door to take refuge in an underground shelter when the terrorists came crashing into our flat.

They held Danny and Einat while they searched for me and Yael, knowing there were more people in the apartment. I will never forget the joy and the hatred in their voices as they swaggered about hunting for us, firing their guns and throwing grenades. I knew that if Yael cried out, the terrorists would toss a grenade into the crawl space and we would be killed. So I kept my hand over her mouth, hoping she could breathe. As I lay there, I remembered my mother telling me how she had hidden from the Nazis during the Holocaust. "This is just like what happened to my mother," I thought.

As police began to arrive, the terrorists took Danny and Einat down to the beach. There, according to eyewitnesses, one of them shot Danny in front of Einat so that his death would be the last sight she would ever see. Then he smashed my little girl's skull in against a rock with his rifle butt. That terrorist was Samir Kuntar.

By the time we were rescued from the crawl space, hours later, Yael, too, was dead. In trying to save all our lives, I had smothered her.

The BBC gives a rather more sanitized account of the crime: "Qantar . . . attacked a block of flats in Nahariha in 1979, killing a father and his daughter."
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J. Crohn
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Username: Jcrohn

Post Number: 2615
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 11:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Daily Star (Lebanon)
7/28/06

Hizbullah refused to comment Thursday on reports that the group's leader, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, is currently in Damascus after being taken there by Syrian intelligence members.

The Kuwaiti-based As-Siyassa newspaper reported Thursday that Nasrallah was taken to Damascus for a series of meetings and is scheduled to meet with Iran's chief nuclear negotiator, Ali Larijani and Syrian President Bashar Assad.

A Hizbullah spokesperson refused to comment, telling The Daily Star such reports "do not deserve a comment."
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J. Crohn
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Username: Jcrohn

Post Number: 2616
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 11:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Uncertainty as Hezbollah backs Lebanon PM truce plan

By Agence France Presse (AFP)

Friday, July 28, 2006

by Salim Yassine

BEIRUT, July 28, 2006 (AFP) - Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora secured a political victory by convincing Hezbollah government members to back his plan for a ceasefire with Israel but it remained unclear Friday whether the move went beyond symbolic value.

Hezbollah said that it had taken its stance to "reinforce national unity" while Sinora's allies hailed the decision as an important step in improving the credibility of the Lebanese government on the world stage.

The announcement late Thursday that the government had backed Siniora's seven-point plan for a ceasefire came as ferocious battles continued in the south between Israeli forces and Hezbollah on the 17th day of Israel's offensive.

A Western diplomatic source told AFP that "diplomatic efforts are intensifying to create conditions that are right for a ceasefire," acknowledging that "Hezbollah is starting to show flexibility" Hezbollah had previous qualified Siniora's speech in Rome as merely personal ideas, so support for the plan from the cabinet, which includes two Hezbollah ministers, caught many commentators by surprise.

"The decision of the council of ministers is a surprise and one of the most important decisions taken for years," said the daily An-Nahar. "The government succeeded to address the international community with a single voice." In a speech to an international meeting on the Lebanon crisis in Rome earlier this week, Siniora laid out a plan for a ceasefire that demanded an exchange of prisoners between Lebanon and Israel and a pacification of their common border.

But even more crucially, the plan foresaw the Lebanese government exercising full sovereignty over its southern regions and the UN Security Council making an engagement to put the contested Shebaa farms area under United Nations jurisdiction.

Information Minister Ghazi Aridi said the cabinet also unanimously considered that Wednesday's 15-nation conference in Rome had "achieved a breakthrough" by raising the issue of the Shebaa Farms.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb

Hezbollah has vowed to continue fighting Israel in order to free the Shebaa Farms which the Jewish state had seized from Syria in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, but is now claimed by Lebanon with the approval of Damascus.

"This is a positive development because it reinforces the credibility of the Siniora government towards the international community," said MP Boutros Harb, who belongs to Siniora's anti-Syrian parliamentary majority.

"The decisions of the government have been taken after a profound dialogue and we hope that Hezbollah will respect them," he added.

But Hezbollah lawmaker Hassan Fadlallah said that the Shiite militant group, which has long controlled much of southern Lebanon and refuses to give up its arms, was ready to consider all suggestions but only after a ceasefire was agreed.

Hezbollah "is ready to study the question of the deployment of an international force on the condition that it respects Lebanese sovereignty. Thus all of us together are taking the same position within the government," said "For the moment neither the composition of this force, its mission or the framework of its deployment are clear. Let's wait for what the international community will propose to us." "Nobody in Lebanon is opposed to Lebanese sovereignty being extended over all its territory." According to An-Nahar, Siniora told Hezbollah that Lebanon has to "keep two irons in the fire, that of military resistance to (Israeli) aggression but also put forward plans as the forthcoming diplomatic battle will be hard." "If we do nothing and play the waiting game we risk the UN Security Council imposing conditions that are not in out favour," he said, according to the paper.-AFP
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J. Crohn
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Username: Jcrohn

Post Number: 2617
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 11:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A report on NPR today, also reported by Robert Fisk, tells of Lebanese collaborators arrested in two towns for painting phosphorous targets on buildings to aid the IDF.
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J. Crohn
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Username: Jcrohn

Post Number: 2618
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 11:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Haaretz:

Last update - 05:50 29/07/2006
Woman shot to death at Jewish Federation building in Seattle
By News Agencies

At least six people were shot, one fatally, on Friday when a gunman opened fire at a Jewish organization in downtown Seattle, authorities said.

Police said they had arrested a single suspect in the shootings, but did not immediately identify the man. Several streets in the area were cordoned off and police could be searching for another suspect, according to media reports.

Amy Wasser-Simpson, vice president for planning and community services at the Jewish Federation told The Seattle Times that a man got through security at the building and told staff members: "I'm Muslim American. I'm angry at Israel," then began shooting.

Advertisement

Police said they had also found a car belonging to the man, who was not immediately identified, and were searching it for explosives and evidence. A handgun had been found at the scene and was taken into evidence.

"We think this is a lone individual acting out with antagonism toward the organization," said David Gomez, assistant special agent in charge of counterterrorism for the FBI's office in Seattle.

Police, who first responded to reports of shots fired and a possible hostage situation at the center shortly after 4 P.M., said they were "taking every precaution" in searching for explosives and additional suspects and were monitoring the city's synagogues and Jewish organizations.

Authorities did not offer a motive for the incident and it was not immediately clear if the shooter was targeting women. Police said there were about 10 people in the federation's offices at the time of the shooting.

"We have five victims, all female, ranging from their early 20s to 40s, who have been brought to Harbor View (Medical Center)," hospital spokeswoman Pamela Steele said.

"They have sustained wounds to the knee, groin, abdomen and arm. Three of the five have been taken to the operating room," she said.

The shooting took place at the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle, which had organized a large rally last weekend to demonstrate support for Israel in its fight against Hezbollah.

The extent of the victims' injuries was not immediately known. A SWAT team was searching the downtown building Friday for any other possible victims or shooters, police spokesman Rich Pruitt said.

"People got shot, some of our co-workers," Patti Simon said in a phone interview, her voice shaking. "I just got back from Israel and made it out of there a half hour before the rockets started."

Simon, who sells advertising for the federation's newspaper, was working on the first floor when she heard screaming, shots and what sounded like furniture crashing on the floor above.

"We heard this horrible screaming on the floor above us and shots," the 52-year-old said. "We didn't know what was happening."

Simon called up to her co-workers on the second floor, but got no answer, so she called the police and fled the building.

One person shot in the abdomen and another shot in the arm were being taken to Harborview Medical Center, KING-TV reported.

Police blocked off several city blocks to investigate. Simon said the federation building has security.

"Somebody must have lied their way in," she said.



My bet is the guy is a white supremacist.
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J. Crohn
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Post Number: 2619
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Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 11:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Haaretz again:

Justified, essential and timely
By Avraham Tal

Buthaina Shaaban, the Syrian minister of expatriates and a close adviser to president Bashar Assad, said last week that his country would not tolerate a situation in which Damascus would be in the range of Israeli artillery. She warned that Syria would take action if the Israel Defense Forces deployed within 20 kilometers of the Syrian border.

While Damascus is not prepared to countenance the presence of another country's artillery so close to its border, even though that country poses no threat to its security, Israel is supposed to make peace with 13,000 rockets and missiles threatening half of its territory and with the fact that this threat is coming from a terrorist organization that controls Lebanon and which takes orders from no one - except the dark regime in Iran, which seeks to wipe Israel off the map. And some Israelis wanted this situation to perpetuate itself.

Why did Hezbollah invest so much time and energy in creating a network of rockets and missiles that is the densest in the world (at least in terms of weaponry per square kilometer) After all, its leaders knew that Israel would never threaten Lebanon, and would never cross the Blue Line, the international border that both Israel and the world recognizes, unless provoked by Hezbollah.

One explanation is that this network was intended to deter Israel from intervening should Iran, busy developing its nuclear capability, be threatened. Another explanation: this is the basic phase that will prepare the stage for an offensive attack on Israel, supported by Iran, that is intended to liquidate the Jewish state - what its enemies call the "Zionist entity."

Some experts, both authentic and wannabees, argue that Hezbollah "has no Israeli agenda." Does such a claim hold water? Even in the movement's early days in 1980, its leaders - such as, for example, spiritual mentor Sheikh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah - declared that the "Zionist entity" had no right to continue to exist. In an article in The New York Times this week (July 21), Ted Koppel writes about his meeting, a few weeks before the war, with Sheikh Nabil Qaouk, whom Koppel refers to as the commander of Hezbollah forces in southern Lebanon: "When Sheik Qaouk talked about Israel and Hezbollah, his organization's ambitions were not framed in purely defensive terms. There is only harmony between Hezbollah's end game and the more provocative statements made over the past year by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran's president. Both foresee the elimination of the Jewish state."

Nonetheless, there are those who genuinely believe that the confrontation - or, at least, the present showdown - could have been prevented. How? Through appeasement. Had Israel released Lebanese prisoners - as Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah demanded - and, if that concession had not satisfied him, had Israel handed over to Lebanon the Shaba Farms area - known in Israel as Har Dov and which is formerly Syrian territory - would Hezbollah have dismantled its missile network and avoided any provocations along the Israeli border? Hezbollah would then have come up with other pretexts: for example, a demand for the return of the Shiite villages in the northern Galilee whose inhabitants fled or were banished in 1948; or, for example, the demand that Palestine must be liberated not only to fulfill the goal of a jihad(holy war), but also to provide homes for Palestinians currently living in crowded refugee camps in Lebanon who are a thorn in that country's side.

And eventually Hezbollah (installed as Lebanon's formal regime), in collaboration with Iran, would have launched a war of annihilation against Israel. Should the confrontation with Hezbollah have been delayed until Iran had already acquired nuclear weapons? If Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Amir Peretz went into full gear given Nasrallah's provocative action and intelligence assessments of senior IDF commanders, they did the right thing at the right time.

Contrary to what the critics are arguing, the IDF is not fighting a small guerrilla organization. It is dealing with a trained, skilled, well-organized, highly motivated infantry that is equipped with the cream of the crop of modern weaponry from the arsenals of Syria, Iran, Russia and China, and which is very familiar with the territory on which it is fighting. In such a showdown, even when you have tanks and fighter planes, the going is very slow, and, sadly, you must also pay a heavy price in terms of casualties.

One of the claims being made by critics is that Israel is serving the interests of "American imperialism," and that our children are shedding their blood in the name of those interests. Is there no limit to malicious cynicism? There is a genuine congruence of Israeli and American interests in the war against world terrorism. Without America's political, economic, military and moral support, Israel would never have been capable of waging its war of survival against the evil axis of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran, and in the face of an indifferent world.

Some 2,500 critics of the war demonstrated Saturday night, claiming Israel was repeating the mistake of the first Lebanon war. However, that war achieved its goal, and in an impressive manner: the Palestine Liberation Organization's removal from Lebanese soil. Deviation from, and expansion of, that goal plunged Israel into the Lebanese quagmire, where we remained for 18 years. Does anyone genuinely believe that Israel will repeat that mistake in 2006?

The more vocal critics include, on the one hand, many naive individuals who believe that a weak-kneed policy of appeasement for dealing with blood-thirsty terrorists can guarantee Israel's continued survival and, on the other hand, a not inconsiderable number of genuinely evil people who pray for Israel's liquidation, whether through its transformation into a binational state or through its annihilation. Those who find it hard to believe that such evil people exist should read between the lines of the statements made by Arab Knesset members, and should listen to the sermons of muezzins in Israeli mosques (for example, one in Shfaram last Friday, who, as quoted in Maariv on July 25, declared: "We back Nasrallah's struggle").
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J. Crohn
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Post Number: 2620
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 11:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joschka Fischer:

A proxy war
By Joschka Fischer

Haifa, Beirut and many other Lebanese and Israeli towns and villages are under fire. Who would have thought this possible a few weeks ago? Across the globe, the reaction to the images of destruction and death in Lebanon, but also in Gaza and Israel, has been one of abhorrence.

The current war in Lebanon is not a war by the Arab world against Israel; rather, it is a war orchestrated by the region's radical forces - Hamas and Islamic Jihad among the Palestinians, Hezbollah in Lebanon, Syria and Iran - which fundamentally reject any settlement with Israel.

Conflict was sought for three reasons: first to ease pressure on Hamas from within the Palestinian community to recognize Israel; second to undermine democratization in Lebanon, which was marginalizing Syria; and third to lift attention from the emerging dispute over the Iranian nuclear program and demonstrate to the West the "tools" at its disposal in the case of a conflict.

Moderate Arab governments understand full well the issue at stake in this war: It is about regional hegemony in the case of Syria with Lebanon and Palestine and, on a wider level, Iran's hegemonic claim to the entire Middle East. Yet the war in Lebanon and Gaza could prove to be a miscalculation for the radicals. By firing missiles on Haifa, Israel's third-largest city, a boundary has been crossed. From now on, the issue is no longer primarily one of territory, restitution or occupation. Instead, the main issue is the strategic threat to Israel's existence.

The rejectionist front has underestimated Israel's determination and capacity for deterrence. It has proved there is no way back to the status quo in Lebanon, and it revealed Iran's hegemonic aspirations to the entire world. The folly of this is readily apparent, because it doesn't require much imagination to see what the Middle East would look like if an Iranian nuclear umbrella were shielding the radicals.

This miscalculation will become obvious as four developments unfold:

Israel avoids being sucked into a ground war in Lebanon;

* UN Resolution 1559 - which requires the disarmament of all militias in Lebanon with the help of the international community - is enforced and a return to the status quo rendered impossible;

* today's de facto "anti-hegemon" coalition, comprising moderate Arab countries (including moderate Palestinians), is transformed into a robust and serious peace initiative; and

* the Quartet, led by the United States, becomes actively engaged for a viable solution and provides the necessary political, economic and military guarantees to sustain it over time.

Israel has a key role to play here. Twice, it withdrew its troops unilaterally behind its recognized borders, namely from southern Lebanon and Gaza. Both times, Israel's land-for-peace formula resulted in land for war. Now, with the existence of Israel under threat, peace with its Arab neighbors seems a more distant prospect than ever.

I believe today's war in Lebanon can open up a new opportunity for peace. The sooner the guns are silenced in Lebanon, the better. But let's not forget the war's starting point: the clash within Hamas over whether to recognize Israel. And let's not forget the attitude of moderate Arab governments toward this war and to the hidden intentions of those who sought it.

Israel's security makes a restructuring of Lebanon's internal organization and a guarantee of Lebanon's state sovereignty nonnegotiable. Now is the time to play the Syrian card and bring President Bashar Assad onto the path of normalization. With the Golan Heights, Israel has the key element in its hand. Without Syria, Iran would be alone. Iraq, too, would profit from such a development.

Finally, things are not as hopeless for the Palestinians as they may seem. In Israel's prisons, a consensus has developed among leading Fatah and Hamas Palestinian inmates on accepting a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders. This new Palestinian realism must be supported. But there can be no way past the historic date of June 1967 (for both sides).

How then, will Israel define its security in the future? Currently, Israel emphasizes massive deterrence, but it would be well advised to utilize the political and diplomatic possibilities presented by this war and take the initiative from a position of strength to offer a comprehensive peace to all those who are ready to recognize its existence and permanently renounce violence, not just in word, but also in deed.

Now is the time to think big! This applies not only to Israel and its neighbors, but to the U.S. and Europe as well. This war offers a chance for lasting peace. We must not let it slip away.

Joschka Fischer, a leader of the Green Party for nearly 20 years, was Germany's foreign minister and vice chancellor from 1998 to 2005.
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J. Crohn
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Post Number: 2621
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 12:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Haaretz

Last update - 06:18 29/07/2006
26 Hezbollah gunmen killed by IDF in Bint Jbail clashes
By Ze'ev Schiff and Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondents, and Agencies

Israel Defense Forces troops killed 26 Hezbollah gunmen in clashes in the southern Lebanon town of Bint Jbail. No IDF troops were hurt in the opreation, an army spokesperson said.

During the day's fighting, a joint force of Paratroopers and soldiers from the Golani Brigade seized Hezbollah equipment including five anti-tank missiles, 30 hand grenades, 41 clips and 10 bullet proof vests.

"(Israeli) forces are still there at the moment," an army spokeswoman said.

Two Israel Air Force raids destroyed a bridge on the Orontes river in the Bekaa Valley early Saturday, largely cutting off the town of Hermel from the rest of the country. There were no casualties, residents said.

Meanwhile, IAF warplanes took out the launchers used by Hezbollah to fire a new kind of missile at the Afula area, the furthest south that the guerilla group has reached since it began battering the north of Israel more than two weeks ago.

The initial investigation revealed that the missile has a range of 90 kilometers. The northern district police said that this kind of missile had not landed in the area before. The level of damage caused by the missile impact and the size of the warhead is also unprecedented, suggesting that it could have weighed up to 100 kilograms.

Security officials are looking into the possibility that the missile could have originated in Iran, and may even be a Zelzal missile, which has a range of up to 200 kilometers. Hezbollah has moved some of its rocket and missile launchers further north inside Lebanon following IAF attacks to destroy them.

On Thursday night, IAF planes fired more than 30 missiles at suspected Hezbollah hideouts in hills and mountainous areas in southeastern Lebanon. The day before, the IAF scored a direct hit against Hezbollah's missile command center deployed in Tyre, which was responsible for firing rockets on the Haifa area.

The IDF believes that at least 200 Hezbollah operatives have been killed since the fighting began more than two weeks ago, a military source said Friday.
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J. Crohn
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Username: Jcrohn

Post Number: 2622
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 12:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One more for the road:

Gil Troy is Professor of History at McGill University in Montreal. A native of Queens, New York, he received his bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees from Harvard University. A couple of months ago he published "Why I am a Zionist." Later this year, Troy will publish a book on Hillary Clinton.

Troy is writing from Israel - he even spent some days in Haifa, where rockets fell in the past two weeks killing and wounding Israelis. He will write about the war, Zionism, America's involvement in the Middle East and other topics. You can send your questions to rosnersdomain@haaretz.co.il.

...

Hi Professor Troy,

... My question: Why is it is so hard for Western governments, other than the U.S., to support Israel?

This time it seems rather obvious. It is terrorist organizations in southern Lebanon and Gaza, yet Western governments consistently try to be "balanced," as in morally equate the Israeli government with terrorist organizations, no matter what the circumstances. Or, as in Canada, Prime Minister Harper is facing huge criticism for his stance, when he did support Israel.

Also, how can there be a cease-fire at all if Hezbollah doesn't agree to one?

Thanks, take care,
Jacqui


Dear Jacqui,

[Y]our question about Western governments is excellent but complicated. For starters, this should not be a left-right issue. Anyone who thinks being pro-Israel and anti-terror is incompatible with liberalism distorts liberalism - that is not the liberalism of Thomas Jefferson, John Stuart Mill, Martin Luther King, Jr. or John Kennedy.

And while there is room to debate the rights and wrongs of Israel's military moves - compared to other sovereign countries' attempts at self defense after being attacked, how can a freedom-loving Western democrat support Hezbollah? Hezbollah killed 241 Marines in Lebanon, murdered dozens of civilians in Argentina, and has waged a pointless war against Israel, despite Israel's UN-legitimized withdrawal from Lebanon in May 2000.

Of course, debating Israel's "proportionality" in responding, while ignoring such precedents as NATO's bombing in Kosovo, at least acknowledges Israel's right to respond when Hezbollah terrorists ambushed Israeli soldiers, kidnapping two, and slaughtering eight young heroes with promising lives ahead.

I know many Jews are quick to attribute Europeans' irrational anti-Israeli hostility to anti-Semitism. And the ghost of anti-Semitism looms when countries hold Israel to higher standards of behavior than they hold themselves, or when countries violate core ideals - such as a revulsion against terrorism or autocracy - to support the Palestinians or attack the Jewish state.

Still, we should consider two other factors. For starters, play the numbers game. The Arabs have the population numbers and the petrodollars. What we should do is marvel at the moral grandeur of BOTH Democratic and Republican administrations - as well as Canada's Stephen Harper - for nevertheless supporting Israel.

Finally, there are deeper ideological phenomena which I address in my book. Modern European democracies have shown an appalling tendency to be soft on dictators. One explanation is what I call "the Great Inversion," wherein many Baby Boomers overcompensated for the genuine sins of colonialism and racism by overly romanticizing the Third World. These boomers indulged in a reverse racism, assuming those deemed to be "the oppressed" could never do wrong. If the typical 1950s elites were blind to the excesses of whites in power, their rebellious, self-righteous children were blind to the excesses of the non-white and the powerless. This resulted in, among other things, Yasser Arafat's inexplicable popularity in Europe, the ability of so-called progressive forces to overlook the racism, sexism, and homophobia of the Palestinian Authority, among other Arab regimes, and many Europeans' peculiar zeal for bashing Israel and the United States while excusing the many crimes of Islamicist terrorists, Third World dictators, and the like.

And you're right, it will be hard to have a ceasefire without Hezbollah's agreement, and Hezbollah probably needs to be crushed to agree to it, which is one of the reasons why Israel must crush Hezbollah.

Gil


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerGuest.jhtml?itemNo=742201
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Glock 17
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Username: Glock17

Post Number: 1622
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 12:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry I'm a little behind on this thread. But as to the UN bunker being used as a shield for Hezbollah rocket-launchers...

YOU SEND IN TROOPS. What a cowardly move...blowing the whole bunker and killing UN observers, such a shame.
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sbenois
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Username: Sbenois

Post Number: 15441
Registered: 10-2001


Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 12:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nah.
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tjohn
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Username: Tjohn

Post Number: 4581
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 2:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let us assume that a direct hit on a Hezbollah rocket launcher resulted in the deaths of the U.N. observers. I can only conclude that the U.N. observers should not have been there.

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Montagnard
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Username: Montagnard

Post Number: 1976
Registered: 6-2003


Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 3:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is not surprising that some Lebanese Muslims are hostile to Israel, given the long history of violence against civilians on both sides (e.g. the massacre at the Sabra and Shatila camps).

The right to self-defense does not extend to terrorizing the neighborhood. Moreover, if Israelis can speak of "crushing Hezbollah" to achieve a lasting peace, is it really surprising that others might speak of crushing Israel to achieve the same effect?

There are no "good guys" and "bad guys" in this conflict, any more than there were between the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland.
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Wendy
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Username: Wendy

Post Number: 2839
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 4:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From Montagnard:


Quote:

It is not surprising that some Lebanese Muslims are hostile to Israel, given the long history of violence against civilians on both sides (e.g. the massacre at the Sabra and Shatila camps).

The right to self-defense does not extend to terrorizing the neighborhood. Moreover, if Israelis can speak of "crushing Hezbollah" to achieve a lasting peace, is it really surprising that others might speak of crushing Israel to achieve the same effect?

There are no "good guys" and "bad guys" in this conflict, any more than there were between the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland.




The above has to be the most simplistic, ridiculous and totally inaccurate post in this entire thread (post tulip). And that's saying something.
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sbenois
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Username: Sbenois

Post Number: 15442
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 4:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hezbollah = Bad Guys.
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Montagnard
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Username: Montagnard

Post Number: 1977
Registered: 6-2003


Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 5:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Believers often see killers of their own faith as morally justified.
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Bob K
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Username: Bobk

Post Number: 12268
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 5:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Most of the posts here defending Israel's "removal" of the UN observation post center around the concept that Heqbollah may, even probably, was conducting operations very near to the location. The point that is never mentioned, much like the elephant in the living room, is that Israel may or probably made an operational decision that attacking Hezbollah was more important than protecting the lives of unarmed UN employees whose location was known to them from maps and rather frantic calls from the UN.

This is an interesting moral quandray. I hope that the target was worth the world wide condemnation Israel has received for their actions.

While I agree with Sbenois that Hezbollah are truly bad people I think that Israel has to realize that to most of the world Israel is looked on as the villlan and, unless they try for better public relations, this will eventually lead to their downfall.



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Southerner
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Username: Southerner

Post Number: 1379
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 8:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bob,
I like your posts usually, but you have suddenly become super naive on this issue. I understand that most people have a problem removing emotions from any topic, but you should give it a try from time to time. Your statement that Israel should worry about public relations is hilarious. Israel has countries surrounding them that have called for their extinction and yet Israel needs to worry about public relations? In your liberal dreamworld I guess you can rationalize this. But I doubt Israel is worried about public relations. They are worried about existence. I guess the question is should they worry about their own citizens or the Arab nations citizens who have been calling for their death. As far as I can recall, only France is willing to have their country overrun without a fight.
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Glock 17
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Username: Glock17

Post Number: 1627
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 8:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isarel needs to worry abou the countries they just p*ssed off. Namely, China.
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tjohn
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Username: Tjohn

Post Number: 4582
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 9:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FWIW, Glock just made post number 666 on this topic.

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FlyingSpaghettiMonst
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Username: Noodlyappendage

Post Number: 216
Registered: 11-2005


Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 10:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is also a family history. Gibson’s father Hutton has been branded a Holocaust denier for claiming the extermination of 6m Jews is largely a myth and that many of the supposed victims had moved to Brooklyn.

Above it a quote from Hutton Gibson, father of our fav alcoholic director Mel.

Maybe Tulip (she of the quotes that Israelis should move to Bklyn) is actually a Huton follower??

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tjohn
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Post Number: 4583
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 10:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Southerner,

You wrote, "As far as I can recall, only France is willing to have their country overrun without a fight." Was this before or after they suffered 120,000 killed trying to stop the German attack?

France was defeated in WW II. The defeat came not when the Germans reached the Channel, but when the Vichy government decided to reach an accommodation with the Germans rather than resist until the day when the Germans were defeated. Of course, in June, 1940, a reasonable person could believe it was going to be a VERY long time before the Germans were defeated.
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Gordon Agress
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Username: Odd

Post Number: 478
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 10:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"if Israelis can speak of "crushing Hezbollah" to achieve a lasting peace, is it really surprising that others might speak of crushing Israel to achieve the same effect? "

Hezbollah consists of about a thousand trained men and about ten thousand wannabes, all of them philosophically committed to killing innocents to achieve their ends.

Israel is a nation of millions, some of them soldiers, a few of them willing to kill innocents to achieve their ends and those few subject to laws forbidding that.

Israel has done many bad things, but the difference between it and Hezbollah couldn't be clearer.

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anon
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Post Number: 2902
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Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 10:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Israel "pissed off" China? Without the Jews Chinese restaurants would be out of business.
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kathleen
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Username: Symbolic

Post Number: 604
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know how anybody can judge which is the silliest post here. For starters, France is going to enforce the ceasefire in Lebanon, as far as I know, and probably carry the lion's share of the burden of protecting Israel against Hezbollah rockets.

There was no militarily potent Hezbollah until Israel invaded Lebanon on a pretext in 1982 and the brutality of Ariel Sharon's operations and his use of proxies to foment a civil war among Lebanese produced Hezbollah's militia in response. Do people really imagine Israel never whacks at hornet's nests for cynical, Machivellian reasons? Hezbollah is financially backed by Iran and is an opportunistic partner with Syria and other enemies of Israel, but it is spending its own Lebanese blood. Is somebody here now declaring that they have a principled objection to external military funding of Middle East proxies to preserve global influence? We finally agree!!!!

I assume Tjohn actually is being deliberaely silly with his post, but I actually laughed when I read people here talking as if "public relations" shouldn't be of any concern to real ideological he-men in the Middle East. Would people like to stop and think for a moment how wars are started and ended there? Are we all to become suicide bombers?

And Gordon, I used the word "moron" as a direct jibe at the loudest Israel supporter on MOL. I guess that went past you.

But to answer your points, we are not obliged to let Israel harm our national interests when it misconceives its own security interests. Hezbollah has been havning a high old time for 2 weeks driving Israeli behavior, and I'd rather not see the American governemnt along for the ride, thank you. It's not enough to "show resolve" in a military confrontation. You've got to demonstate the ability to ****ing WIN THE WAR you enter. In Iraq, we've proved (once again) a nation state can't militarily beat an insurgency. By greenlighting Isreal, we've just shown we're incapable of learning to boot. Don't you imagine this emboldens terrorists and makes them heroes to people who were once tempted to idolize America because America represented freedom from corrupt dicatators and an unprejudiced embrace of people whatever their ancestries and religions?

Your proposal of a Security Council resolution saying anyone supporting terrorism in any way will be held "sternly accountable" would mean war crimes trials for half our most important allies in the Middle East, and not all of them Arab, Persian or Bengali countries. I admire your thinking, but I think you'd be surprised at where it leads. You say you refuse to let anyone plead a case by shooting at kids, but have you read Benny Morris on the founding of Israel? The history of Jewish terrorists who attacked Arab civilians, and who were denounced by the great majority of Jews, does not diminish the obligation to protect innocent Jewish lives today. It only obliges everyone to stop claiming one side is morally superior. It's self-deluding hogwash.

You wrote: "Whether or not the fighting is in Israel's interest remains to be seen." To YOU, maybe. I've seen this movie. It's called "Fantasia" and I'm speaking of the episdoe with Mickey Mouse as The Sorcerer's Apprentice. That's the best analogy I can think of for the BOMB'EM strategy favored by the present Israeli and American governments when it comes to combatting terrorism.
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Bob K
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Username: Bobk

Post Number: 12271
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 6:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Southerner, I wasn't talking as much about middle eastern countries as I was about the "west" and more specifically those countries that sit on the Security Council. In the end, a lot of what happens to Israel sits in their hands.

While few belief me here, I am a big supporter of Israel. However, I am also practical. In the last month I have seen a disasterous air war against a country that in a few years that prior to the bombings would have developed into a moderate state that protectinh Israel's northern flank, much as is the case with Egypt to the west and Jordan to the east. We have also seen the IDF fought to a standstill on the border by probably less than 5.000 terrorists.
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Eric Wertheim
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Username: Bub

Post Number: 227
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First:

CNN reports that the building in Qana was not struck by a missile but collapsed, apparently, from missile strikes at nearby targets.

BOB:

Neither Egypt not Jordan are truly moderate states - they are undemocratic states with unpopular governments that sit on top of virulently anti-Israeli populations.

I'd also like to hear how Lebanon was going to evolve into this nice place with Iran continuing to prop up Hezbollah - the only serious military force in Lebanon - to the tune of a gundred million per year.
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Southerner
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Username: Southerner

Post Number: 1382
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bob,
Now you are sounding reasonable. Do you really think anyone other than our own bed wetting libs care about the security council? I know Israel doesn't, and I'm pretty sure our Admin doesn't. The entire UN is hilariously impotent. Israel just blew up one of their posts and the Lebanese are currently ransacking their Beirut offices, and yet the UN is powerless to do anything. In my opinion, the only true long term effect from this recent battle will be even more of the world seeing the UN as worthless. As for Israel's fate being in the hands of the Security Counsel, that is incorrect. They are in our hands. The security counsel is nothing but a bunch of saber rattlers. Russia is a joke, and China can't even effectively deal with it's own regional issues.

When the dust settles, those who hated Israel before will hate them still, and those who didn't won't. And the world will forget Lebanon within a few weeks of the last shot. The sky isn't falling, but I guarantee Syria will think twice in the future about instigating Israel.
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Eric Wertheim
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Username: Bub

Post Number: 228
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Israeli missiles, most fired from combat helicopters, struck this southern Lebanese village early Sunday. One missile hit near a large apartment building, with the concussion causing its collapse. CNN's Ben Wedeman, who was at the site, reported that no ordinance actually hit the building, but hit the ground nearby, creating a large crater. He speculated that the concussive impact cause the nearby four-story apartment to collapse.
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Eric Wertheim
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Username: Bub

Post Number: 229
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 10:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To get some detail about Hezbollah's tactics, check out this post on the Egyptian "Sandmonkey" blog. Tihs is the firdt blog war, and there is a great deal of info, backfround knwledge, and perspective you don't get from the mainstream.

http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/07/30/foreboding/
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Bob K
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Username: Bobk

Post Number: 12273
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 10:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One word, China. Right now they probably have the most powerful army in the world and the largest. If I was going to add a second word it would be India, currently sitting on the security council. Both countries have lost UN peacekeepers or observers in the current unpleasentness. If feelings get to high here those two countries, who need middle eastern oil even more than we do, may ignore the US veto and decide that they have a "mandate" to clear out the problems. I am not saying this is going to happen, and it does sound far fetched, but anything is possible, if not now, several years down the road.

Eric, I agree about Egypt and Jordan. However, all of us better hope and pray that they don't have "regime change" anytime soon.





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