Author |
Message |
   
Glock 17
Citizen Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1630 Registered: 7-2005

| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 11:02 am: |
|
Yeah, I agree with Bob K on that one. |
   
tjohn
Supporter Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4585 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 11:27 am: |
|
Southerner, Why would anyone think that Syria will think twice in the future about encouraging Hezbollah to cause trouble? At this point, this crisis looks like a big win for Hezbollah and a big problem for Israel and the United States. Now, it could be that Lebanon will quietly seek ways to bring Hezbollah under control to avoid a second destruction of its infrastructure, but that remains to be seen. And it could be that the crisis will provide an opportunity to engage Syria in some sort of discussions, but I have my doubts. Early on, the simplistic, moralistic Bush Administration decided that it would have nothing to do with countries it identified as evil. Now this is fine if you are attacking those countries and foolish if you aren't. Pretty clearly, Bush has not cowed Iran and Syria into submission. The Bush Administration has led the United States into our most disadvantageous international situation since 1941 with an important difference being that in 1941, we were still a rising power and now we are a status quo power. It is difficult being a status quo power because everybody else is chipping away at your position.
|
   
Dave
Supporter Username: Dave
Post Number: 10266 Registered: 4-1997

| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 12:30 pm: |
|
Quote:QANA, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israel said it mistakenly destroyed a four-story building near a Hezbollah rocket-launching site in Qana, Lebanon, on Sunday where officials said 60 people died, including 19 children. It was the deadliest attack in 19 days of fighting between Hezbollah militia and Israeli forces, which began after Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid.
Quote:In Israel, police officials said 134 Hezbollah rockets slammed into the Jewish state on Sunday. Officials reported 48 injuries, one of them serious. Twenty-four rockets landed in Akko, Nahariya, Kiryat Shimona, Metula and in the upper part of the Galilee, police said.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/30/mideast.main/index.html
|
   
Glock 17
Citizen Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1634 Registered: 7-2005

| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 12:41 pm: |
|
That's quite a difference between the number of casualties. |
   
Mtam
Citizen Username: Mtam
Post Number: 133 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 12:57 pm: |
|
Correction Bob- India is not on the Security Council. This is something that's being seriously discussed, and they hope to make a bid for a permanent seat. And right now, India is extremely cosy with this administration, especially given the recent nuclear deal. Perhaps more illuminating is the degree to which the Administration signalled to India not to retaliate for the Mumbai attacks, despite the evidence linking the terrorists to training within Pakistan, and signalled to Israel that it made sense to continue the bombings. Nicholas Kristof wrote about this about a week ago. |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12275 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 1:32 pm: |
|
Mtam, I thought they currently held one of the rotating seats. Guess not. Shoulda checked. But in the thriller I am plotting out, I think they will be on the SC.
|
   
Southerner
Citizen Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1385 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 1:36 pm: |
|
tjohn, That was funny. Hezbollah is winning. Nice. I am beginning to think you don't even know what winning is. Which country is being destroyed and which country isn't? If Hezbollah is winning then why is everyone calling for a cease fire. I would think everyone would be calling for the battle to continue since Israel is on the precipice of being wiped from the map. You are no doubt a true lib who still has his Gore/what's his name stickers on your bumper. Luckily, the countries that matter, the U.S. and Israel, could really care less that others are calling for a cease fire. Empty words have never won a battle, but they are entertaining to hear. I love ole Kofi calling for a cease fire from his cushy upper east side apartment. That is the perfect picture of inept leadership. |
   
Blue Heeler
Citizen Username: Blueheeler
Post Number: 70 Registered: 10-2005

| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 1:47 pm: |
|
> That's quite a difference between the number of casualties. What's the matter, Glock? Not enough dead Jews for you? An upstanding citizen in Seattle has already started redressing this imbalance, shooting up a Jewish Center. Grab a G17, a couple of pre-ban mags and start roaming Maplewood... BlueHeeler |
   
Mtam
Citizen Username: Mtam
Post Number: 134 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 1:49 pm: |
|
Also, Bob, your read on India is completely off in the thriller scenario. Their dependance is increasingly on nuclear power, first off. Secondly, there's a significant anti-Muslim, pro Hindu nationalist part of the population that is cheering for Israel, in contrast to those who occupy what we would think of as liberal/left and are highly critical. Since relations have normalized, India and Israel have strong connections via training and arms trades. Sorry to punch holes in the thriller ...  |
   
Illuminated Radish
Citizen Username: Umoja
Post Number: 46 Registered: 6-2006
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 3:06 pm: |
|
"What's the matter, Glock? Not enough dead Jews for you? An upstanding citizen in Seattle has already started redressing this imbalance, shooting up a Jewish Center. Grab a G17, a couple of pre-ban mags and start roaming Maplewood..." Perhaps he's saying that the Israeli's are coping fine with rockets being lobbed at them. The Lebanese aren't coping as well. Maybe he's saying, "Is it worth killing 60 people in one night, in retailiation for some damaged buildings, and injured people." But I don't know what he's saying. |
   
sbenois
Supporter Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15451 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 3:45 pm: |
|
Maybe he's saying that that's the sort of stuff that happens when Hezbollah fires rockets from residential neighborhoods.
|
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12276 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 3:46 pm: |
|
Mtam, guess I will have to switch to Pakistan for the thriller, although the Indian Navy was slated to play a big roll. lol The general conscenscious of the talking heads is that Lebanon will have regime change shortly and not in the positive sense. Even the current government disinvited Ms. Rice for a visit. I think Israel took a page out of the United States playbook and decided they could neutralize Hezbollah from the air and all the ground forces would have to do is move in and mop up, basically a low risk operation. This hasn't, obviously, happened and Israel seems to have scaled back their military objectives in South Lebanon and is talking about weeks or months to neutralize the bad guys. One way or another this isn't going to happen. Israel, who actually has an ethics department connected with the IDF, has managed to step on their own toes twice now. The longer the war goes on the more chances they will have to do it again. Tactically Israel is winning. Strategically I am not so sure. A cease fire now wouldn't solve anything, only postpone more fighting and I think Hezbollah will be better equipted in a few years than they are now. |
   
tjohn
Supporter Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4592 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 3:48 pm: |
|
Southerner, You should perhaps stick to domestic politics. Hezbollah is doing very well in Lebanon. The have won militarily since the expectation is that they fight back bravely and tenaciously. Nobody expects them to actually stop the vastly superior IDF. In terms of the destruction being heaped upon Lebanon, I don't doubt that there has been some short-term degradation of Hezbollah's rocket-launching capabilities, but much of the world just sees Israel setting a poor country back several years. The key to shutting down Hezbollah lies in Damascus. Arab nations that initially spoke out against Hezbollah and changed their tone in recent days - another win for Hezbollah. And, evidently, Arabs are feeling proud of Hezbollah. Another win for Hezbollah. So yes, this is not going well for Israel or the United States. In the case of the United States, I think this is due to a willful disregard of reality in favor of a simplistic, moralistic refusal to deal with nations the Bush Administration brands as "evil". Unless this current round of fighting leads to some opportunities to advance the diplomatic process, I can't imagine how you can think Israel is benefitting. |
   
Paul Surovell
Supporter Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 671 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 4:25 pm: |
|
Tom Friedman's wise advice on the war in Lebanon and Israel:
Quote:I believe, from the Israeli point of view, from the Lebanese point of view, from the regional point of view, the time right now is to shut this thing down, let Hezbollah be able to say, “OK, we held the Israelis back,” let Israel be able to say, “We inflicted a terrible, punishing blow for this reckless action.”
Transcript of Friedman's interview today on Meet the Press: Quote:MR. RUSSERT: And we are back, and so is Tom Friedman. Just back from Israel and Syria. Welcome home. MR. THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN: Great to be here, Tim. Thanks. MR. RUSSERT: Tom, let me read from your column on Wednesday and share it with our viewers as well. “We need to get real on Lebanon. Hezbollah made a reckless mistake in provoking Israel. Shame on Hezbollah for bringing this disaster upon Lebanon by embedding its ‘heroic’ forces amid civilians. ... But Hezbollah’s militia ... can’t be wiped out at a price that Israel, or America’s Arab allies, can sustain - if at all. ... Despite Hezbollah’s bravado, Israel has hurt it and its supporters badly, in a way they will never forget. Point made. It is now time to wind down this war and pull together a deal - a cease-fire, a prisoner exchange, a resumption of the peace effort and an international force to help the Lebanese Army secure the border with Israel - before things spin out of control. Whoever goes for a knockout blow will knock themselves out instead.” That’s what you found. MR. FRIEDMAN: That’s what I found and that’s what I believe, Tim. Israel didn’t court this war. It was brought on by Hezbollah, I believe partly inspired by Iran to draw attention away from the Security Council action, pending action, to curb Iran’s nuclear program. And partly, I think, by Hezbollah, trying to elevate its importance, a little power play within Lebanese politics. That said, I think that the Israeli reaction at this point has demonstrated to Hezbollah the huge costs and the recklessness of this action. To press on now—you know, Tim, I think it was Bob Shrum or someone who said about the Iraq war, “It’s all over but the killing.” To go on now is just going to be more killing for no purpose whatsoever. And I believe, from the Israeli point of view, from the Lebanese point of view, from the regional point of view, the time right now is to shut this thing down, let Hezbollah be able to say, “OK, we held the Israelis back,” let Israel be able to say, “We inflicted a terrible, punishing blow for this reckless action.” Precisely when you have people in that mode, that’s the best time for diplomacy. MR. RUSSERT: We have noticed a change of opinion throughout the Arab nations. Initially, Egypt and Jordan and Saudi Arabia criticizing Hezbollah. The Israelis thought, perhaps, even winking at them to go-go-go. MR. FRIEDMAN: Right. MR. RUSSERT: And now, because of what these leaders are hearing on the Arab street, Mubarak of Egypt and others, have been somewhat critical of the U.S. MR. FRIEDMAN: Absolutely. You know, I, I was really in the Middle East when this shift happened. When I went out there, you had Saudi Arabia issuing a remarkable statement, first time ever, just blaming Hezbollah for a reckless action in initiating this war, without even the ritual condemnation of Israel. What was that about? That was the Sunni-Arab countries—Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt—looking at this war in pure historical Shiite/Sunni terms. They see this war as the Shiite-Iranians, through Hezbollah, making a power play, basically, not only to dominate Lebanon but to take the Palestinian issue away from the Sunni-Arab world. So that was how they reacted. But then, as I went around from Jordan to Damascus, one of the things you really feel when you’re in that part of the world, Tim, are all the Arab satellite TV stations—Al-Arabiya, Al Jazeera, they’re on everywhere. They’re the Muzak of the Arab world. And everywhere you turn, you see images of Israeli planes and bombs destroying Arab and Lebanese homes in Lebanon. The impact of that has “inflamed,” as always, the Arab street, and it’s made these regimes—our closest friends—these regimes—Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt—enormously uncomfortable. And you’re now seeing the blowback from that. MR. RUSSERT: Let’s talk about the Bush administration and a quote from your column on Friday. And here’s what Tom Friedman wrote: “America should be galvanizing the forces of order - Europe, Russia, China and India - into a coalition against these trends. But we can’t. Why? In part, it’s because our president and our secretary of state, although they speak with great moral clarity, have no moral authority. That’s been shattered by their performance in Iraq. “The world hates George Bush more than any U.S. president in my lifetime. He is radioactive - and so caught up in his own ideological bubble that he is incapable of imagining or forging alternative strategies.” Pretty strong. MR. FRIEDMAN: It was strong. It’s meant to be strong. Look at the situation we’re now in. You can’t go anywhere in the world right now—and I travel a lot—without getting that feeling from people thrown in your face. Why is that? You know, I’ve been asking myself that a lot. Some of it’s excessive, this dislike, this distaste, this hatred of George Bush. But what’s it about? Whenever you see something that excessive, you know? And the way I explain it is this way: Foreigners love to make fun of Americans. Our naivete, our crazy thought that every problem has a solution, that silly American notion, that silly American optimism. But you know what, Tim? Deep down, the world really envies that American optimism and naivete. And the world needs that American optimism and naivete. And so when we go from a country that, historically, has always exported hope to a country that always exports fear, what we do, and what this administration has done, is actually stolen something from people. Whether it’s an African or a European or an Arab or Israeli, it’s that idea of an optimistic America out there. People really need that idea, and the sort of dark nature of the Cheneys and the Bushes and the Rices, this, this sort of relentless pessimism about the world, this exporting of fear, not hope, has really left people feeling that the idea of America has been stolen from them. And I would argue that that is the animating force behind so much of the animus directed at George Bush. MR. RUSSERT: There’s a debate within the administration, across our country, around the world, about who we should talk to. You feel very strongly that the U.S. should try to pry Syria away from Iran. One country, Syria, which is Sunni and secular, Iran being more Shiite. Is it possible to pry those countries apart? Or is it worth trying? MR. FRIEDMAN: That’s why I went to Damascus, really to answer that question. Because look at the map. Tim, you’ve got Iran over here, you’ve got Hezbollah over here, and in between, the bridge, both ideological and physical and material, is Syria. Hezbollah can’t do what it does if that Syrian bridge is broken. And I basically went to Damascus to ask that question. What I found were, were, were several things. Number one—but the Syrians are feeling very confident right now because they know the street is with them and they—the regime there knows that the street with them and they’re looking at the Saudis and the Egyptians and the Jordanians and saying, “You guys are—you look awful uncomfortable over there. The street’s with us.” Number one, so they’re feeling confident. Number two, though, what I really found, Syrian officials stressed to me over and over again, “Our marriage with Iran is a marriage of convenience.” This is a secular Sunni country. It’s got an Alawite regime, but it’s a secular Sunni country, Syria. And being in a car driven by two Shiite radicals—Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran, and Nasrallah from, from Lebanon—that’s not so comfortable for the Syrians. Particularly because in this car, Tim, they’re in the back seat and the guys in the front got no brakes. So I think that there is a possibility—I wouldn’t exaggerate this, but I think there is a possibility if we—if we sat down with the Syrians and said, “What do you need? Here’s what we need. Let’s have a rational, long-term dialogue,” not one of these Condi Rice specials of, you know, 20 minutes in the Middle East, “I touched the base and went back,” but a serious, rational dialogue. Do you know how many times I went with Jim Baker to Syria when he was preparing the Gulf War coalition and the Madrid Peace Conference? I believe it was 15 times. And you know what I remember most about those trips, Tim? That I think on 14 of them, the lead of my story was “Secretary of State James A. Baker III Failed Today.” Failed in his effort to, to draw Syria in. But guess what? On trip 15, he brought the Syrians into the Madrid Peace Conference. Those are the same Syrians, by the way, who were behind the attacks on the Americans in Beirut in 1982. They haven’t changed. This is a tough, brutal and mean regime, but they also can be done business with with the right, I think, administration approach. MR. RUSSERT: I remember 16 years ago reading “From Beirut to Jerusalem,” still a road map for understanding that area, and you talked extensively about what goes on in the Arab mind, in the Arab heart. And I was reminded of it in your column on Friday you had in The New York Times. You were on a rooftop in Syria talking to young writers, and Tom Friedman wrote this, “There will be no new Middle East - not as long as the New Middle Easterners, like Rafik Hariri, the former Lebanese prime minister, get gunned down; not as long as Old Middle Easterners, like Nasrallah, use all their wits and resources to start a new Arab-Israeli war rather than build a new Arab university; and not as long as Arab media and intellectuals refuse to speak out clearly against those who encourage their youth to embrace martyrdom with religious zeal rather than meld modernity with Arab culture.” Talk about that meeting on that rooftop. MR. FRIEDMAN: Well, it was, it was a dinner with a group of Syrian writers arranged by some friends of mine. Say, you know, one woman was saying how she’s just really—believes Israel should be, you know, eliminated, and another Arab journalist was saying how much pride—how much pride he gets by seeing Hezbollah fight the Israelis to a standstill and inflict these casualties. And a third, very interesting, was saying, “This Nasrallah, the head of Hezbollah, he’s a disaster for us.” But there are too many people, Tim, outside of Lebanon, in the Arab world, getting their buzz, frankly, off seeing Hezbollah stand up to Israel while Lebanon gets decimated. Lebanon, the first Arab democracy. And I, I real—I have a real problem with that because it’s time for the Arab world to stop getting their buzz, OK, off fighting Israel and to overcome their humiliation that way. It’s time to start building something. You know, you ever ask yourself, Tim, what’s the second largest Muslim country in the world? It’s India. It’s not Pakistan or Iran. What do we see in India? Just a couple of weeks ago, 350 Indians killed in what is widely suspected an attack by Muslim extremists in Mumbai in a train station. But the Indian reaction was incredibly restrained. Why is that? You know, why don’t Indian Muslims, you know, get their buzz this way? Could it be because the richest man in India is a Muslim software entrepreneur? Could it be because the president of India is a Muslim? Could it be because there’s an Indian Muslim woman on the Indian Supreme Court? Could it be because the leading female movie star in India is a Muslim woman? You know, when people get their dignity from building things rather than confronting other people, it’s amazing what politics flows from that. And I think that’s something the Arab world also needs to be reflecting on now. MR. RUSSERT: How to convince these young men and women that there’s more to life than trying to destroy Israel? MR. FRIEDMAN: You know, these are people who, who hate others more than they love their own kids, more than they love their own future. And that’s crazy, and that’s part of the pathology of that part of the world. But one thing I know for sure, you know, what we’re doing right now, what Israel’s doing right now—smashing things in Gaza again, smashing things in Lebanon—I understand it. I understand the anger and the rage. You’re minding your own business, and one day these guys, you know, come across the border. But it’s not working. It’s just not working. You know, Israel destroyed the PLO, and it got Hamas. Now it’s destroying Hamas, and it’s going to get chaos. And you can’t repeat the same thing in Lebanon. And the role of America is to be the guiding light there, not to fly air cover so more of this violence can continue indefinitely. If I thought it was going to work, I, I’d feel different. It’s not going to work. It’s not going to work for them, and it’s not going to work for us, and it’s not going to work for Lebanon or the Palestinians. We’ve got to find another way. And you know, part of just showing up, Tim, you know, why did I go to Syria? I haven’t been to Syria in a long time. But, you know, listening. If I found one thing as a reporter—worked in the Arab world for 25 years, as a Jewish-American reporter—here’s what I found. I found that listening is a sign of respect. You know, if you just go over and listen to people, and what they have to say, it’s amazing what they’ll allow you to say back. But when you just say, “We’re not going to go to Damascus, we’re not going to listen to the Syrians,” we—you’re never going to get anywhere that way. I’m not guaranteeing you you’re going to get somewhere the other way, but all I know, you sure increase the odds if you sit down and just listen. MR. RUSSERT: Tom Friedman, we thank you for joining us, and your report on your trip. “From Beirut to Jerusalem,” and also “The World is Flat: A Brief History of the 21st Century,” which is now out as well. Thank you for joining us. MR. FRIEDMAN: Great pleasure, thanks, Tim.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14028605/page/7/
|
   
Illuminated Radish
Citizen Username: Umoja
Post Number: 49 Registered: 6-2006
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 4:39 pm: |
|
"Maybe he's saying that that's the sort of stuff that happens when Hezbollah fires rockets from residential neighborhoods. " Since we're fans of the Maybe's, I'll keep going with these one (give or take) liners: Maybe Hezbollah knows that Israel is willing to hit civilizians to destroy their rockets, and no matter what it makes Israel look bad. |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12278 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 5:42 pm: |
|
Since the people killed were elderly, women and children I rather expect they were the families of the local Hezbollah fighters, although I have no proof of this or anyway to verify that thought. However, even if they were family of the fighters they were non-combantants and not lawful targets. To state otherwise is the beginning of genocide. Stuff happens in war. I know the IDF takes the ethics of war seriously. However, some Major or Colonel had to make a decision in a couple of seconds to issue a tasking order or not based on the drones imagery. It appears the actual bomb or bombs landed next to the building, but the concussion was enough to cause the casualties. Stuff happens. I rather expect on close calls, the IDF is going to take the shot, but again, that is just speculation on my part.
|
   
Southerner
Citizen Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1389 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 6:36 pm: |
|
Paul, If Friedman is so wise then why doesn't he run for office rather than arm chair QB from his comfortable office. You guys keep running losing candidates so it might be worth a shot. tjohn, Just another area we disagree in. When the fighting stops and the emotions die down, the people of Lebanon will be loathe to let Hezbollah take control like they previously had. That is what Israel is doing. I say let Hezbollah and the Arabs have all the marches, protests, and flag burnings they want because in the end they are the actions of the losing side. I'm just glad to see them going after the UN flag as forcefully. Lebanon will be the beneficiary when all is said and done. |
   
Elgato
Citizen Username: Elgato
Post Number: 79 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 6:47 pm: |
|
Or maybe it'll all just escalate. From Josh Marshall's Talking Point Memo http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/009245.php (July 30, 2006 -- 11:17 AM EDT) So here, this morning, we have news of the IAF attack on the south Lebanese village of Qana, in which more than 50 people were killed, mainly women and children. The fact that Olmert, Peretz and Halutz offered an immediate apology and pledged an investigation tells you it's probably just as bad as it sounds. Since Hizbullah doesn't broadcast news of their casualties, I think the damage Israel is doing to its fighting strength on the ground is likely being understated. But I don't see how we can argue, at this point at least, that Hizbullah as a movement doesn't seem strengthened by all this. Hopefully there's some way out of this in which the underlying problem here can be solved -- Lebanon's lack of control over the belligerent militia controlling its southern border. But it's hard to find the signs promising at this moment. And for Israel, one number tells the irreducible story. 140 rockets fell on northern Israel today. That's the highest count since July 12th when the whole thing started. And in terms of how Israel understands its own security, that's the most damning thing: even using main force, they can't stop the rocket attacks on their civilian areas. As I said a couple days ago, the thing about this region is that things can always get worse, much worse. And along those lines, I wanted to finish this post by flagging something ominous that keeps coming up in the Israeli press. There's a mix of public and private communications going on between Jerusalem and Damascus. Israel is trying to assure Damascus that they don't plan or want to expand the war to include Syria. Syria is clearly worried that they will and has their troops on full alert. Israel is also warning in no uncertain terms that Syria getting involved will spark massive retaliation. But there are persistent signs that the US is egging Israel on to bring the war to Damascus. Here's a clip from the end of an article today in the Jerusalem Post ... [Israeli]Defense officials told the Post last week that they were receiving indications from the United States that the US would be interested in seeing Israel attack Syria. And there are other ominous indications of the US pressing for expansion the Israelis don't seem to want. There's more here than the US not wanting a ceasefire before meaningful changes on the ground have happened in south Lebanon. Or at least I fear there is. This started because Israel doesn't want and won't tolerate a menacing militia building up on their northern border and lashing out with occasional raids or missile attacks, especially in the context of withdrawals from other areas. The world has sat by for six years and let Hizbullah's anamolous position in south Lebanon be Israel's problem. Whether their response was wise or just, I'll set aside for the moment. It's not about totalitarianism or Afghanistan or Iraq, at least not in an operational sense, or dingbat fantasies about Freedom and Terror. But there do appear to be forces in Washington -- seemingly the stronger ones, with Rice just a facade -- who see this whole thing as an opportunity for a grand call of double or nothing to get out of the disaster they've created in the region. Go into Syria, maybe Iran. Try to roll the table once and for all. No failed war that a new war can't solve. Condi's mindless 'birth pangs' remark wasn't just a gaffe -- or perhaps it was a gaffe in the Kinsleyan sense of inopportunely saying what you really think. That seems to be the thinking -- transformation through destabilization. -- Josh Marshall
|
   
Southerner
Citizen Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1391 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 6:56 pm: |
|
Why do posters feel the need to post other people's writing and opinions? Do that many of you lack the ability to read and then paraphrase. This thread is so loaded with articles that it has become worthless. I think some of you might simply be shills for some of these outlets. I mean seriously, if I wanted to know what Josh Marshall thought I'd read his stuff. I'd rather read what Elgato thinks. If you want to see some cut and paste jobs that will kill threads, hold on because I'm going to find some 30 page doozies. I might as well join the fray of ruining threads. |
   
Glock 17
Citizen Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1636 Registered: 7-2005

| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 7:03 pm: |
|
Actually I was just commenting on the large difference between the number of casualties. If you want me to take it further... What's happened is that innocent people are basically trapped...and Israel really doesn't care. |
   
sbenois
Supporter Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15454 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 7:27 pm: |
|
Hezbollah cares even less. Don't you agree Glock?
|
   
Glock 17
Citizen Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1637 Registered: 7-2005

| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 7:33 pm: |
|
I agree. I'm not supporting Hezbollah. I just don't think trapping and killing innocent civilians is a way to combat people killing your civilians, regardless of a rocket launcher being taken out along with the civilian building. |
   
Wendy
Supporter Username: Wendy
Post Number: 2843 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 7:54 pm: |
|
Quote:I'm not supporting Hezbollah.
Well that's a relief. Well then if you agree you may have wanted to say so in your 7:03 post at the same time you were criticizing Israel for causing civilian casualties. I still have your earlier comments on word; do you want me to do some pasting here? |
   
Gordon Agress
Citizen Username: Odd
Post Number: 479 Registered: 8-2004
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 8:02 pm: |
|
Kathleen, I find interesting that you can declare that the fighting is accomplishing nothing for Israel when you know pretty much nothing about Hezbollah's casualties or equipment losses, and haven't any analysis of what its capabiliities might have been in a year or two had Israel not gone in. It's almost as if your opinion was formed before any facts were available. Paul, since you are such a fan of Friedman's, would agree with him that "Despite Hezbollah’s bravado, Israel has hurt it and its supporters badly"? If Israel has done so to date -- and I don't know whether it has -- why would we want it to stop? Wouldn't we want them to go on smashing these weasels until they got deep into diminishing returns? And for heaven's sake, why would we want to _allow_ Hezbollah to claim any kind of victory that was in our power to prevent? Here's another. If anyone negotiates with Syria, aren't we rewarding them for helping Hezbollah shoot at innocents? Why would Syria make a deal now when they haven't for twenty years -- because they're afraid Israel might actually invade? The continued calls for cease-fire and appeals to diplomacy, to the neglect of such obvious questions, sort of suggests to me that the calls are coming from people who would never approve of any violence that wasn't justified with crystal clarity and moral perfection. Unfortunately, Hezbollah et al is structured to use violence itself while denying you the clarity you need for moral perfection. And I'm sorry to say it, but a blanket refusal to fight such people is a stunted species of pacifism, without the moral and philosophical bedrock that makes real pacificism a respectable philosophy and an occasionally plausible strategy.
|
   
Glock 17
Citizen Username: Glock17
Post Number: 1639 Registered: 7-2005

| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 8:48 pm: |
|
Wendy, are you implying that it is not possible to be anti-Israel without being pro Hezbollah? |
   
sbenois
Supporter Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15455 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 8:56 pm: |
|
Quote:I agree. I'm not supporting Hezbollah. I just don't think trapping and killing innocent civilians is a way to combat people killing your civilians, regardless of a rocket launcher being taken out along with the civilian building.
Well golly gee Glock, perhaps you can explain what Israel is supposed to do when Hezbollah sets up shop in the neighborhoods? Sure seems like the trapping and killing is the direct result of Hezbollah's intentional acts of cowardice in placing themselves in those areas. Don't you agree Glock? |
   
joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 776 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:32 pm: |
|
Photos that damn Hezbollah (An Australian Newspaper's headline) 19955774-5007220%2C00.html#,http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5 007220,00.html# |
   
joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 779 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:52 pm: |
|
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,19960056-5006301,00.html |
   
Illuminated Radish
Citizen Username: Umoja
Post Number: 50 Registered: 6-2006
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 10:58 pm: |
|
Umm... Hello everyone knows Hezbollah. They want to make Israel appear equally bad, if not worse. They are shooting rockets blindly, they don't have percision guided weapons. For all we know, they could even be intentionally missing hitting civilian targets. All that matters is that they force Israel into killing innocent Lebanese. It's part of their plan, it's working perfectly for them. |
   
Paul Surovell
Supporter Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 674 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 11:45 pm: |
|
Gordon, Friedman is saying that Hezbollah can't be destroyed by bombing but that further bombing poses real risks of radicalizing the populations of Arab regimes which have moderate policies toward Israel -- Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. Think Tehran in 1979 and transpose it to Cairo, Riyadh or Amman. I think that's largely what's behind Israel's 48-hour cease-fire -- which I hope will become a permanent cease-fire.
|
   
Paul Surovell
Supporter Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 675 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 12:15 am: |
|
Another NY Times columnist gets it right: Paul Krugman in today's NY Times: (excerpt)
Quote:There is a case for a full-scale Israeli ground offensive against Hezbollah. It may yet come to that, if Israel can’t find any other way to protect itself. There is also a case for restraint — limited counterstrikes combined with diplomacy, an effort to get other players to rein Hezbollah in, with the option of that full-scale offensive always in the background. But the actual course Israel has chosen — a bombing campaign that clearly isn’t crippling Hezbollah, but is destroying Lebanon’s infrastructure and killing lots of civilians — achieves the worst of both worlds. Presumably there were people in the Israeli government who assured the political leadership that a rain of smart bombs would smash and/or intimidate Hezbollah into submission. Those people should be fired. Israel’s decision to rely on shock and awe rather than either diplomacy or boots on the ground, like the U.S. decision to order the U.N. inspectors out and invade Iraq without sufficient troops or a plan to stabilize the country, is having the opposite of its intended effect. Hezbollah has acquired heroic status, while Israel has both damaged its reputation as a regional superpower and made itself a villain in the eyes of the world. Complaining that this is unfair does no good, just as repeating “but Saddam was evil” does nothing to improve the situation in Iraq. What Israel needs now is a way out of the quagmire. And since Israel doesn’t appear ready to reoccupy southern Lebanon, that means doing what it should have done from the beginning: try restraint and diplomacy. And Israel will negotiate from a far weaker position than seemed possible just three weeks ago. And what about the role of the United States, which should be trying to contain the crisis? Our response has been both hapless and malign. For the moment, U.S. policy seems to be to stall and divert efforts to negotiate a cease-fire as long as possible, so as to give Israel a chance to dig its hole even deeper. Also, we aren’t talking to Syria, which might hold the key to resolving the crisis, because President Bush doesn’t believe in talking to bad people, and anyway that’s the kind of thing Bill Clinton did. Did I mention that these people are childish? Again, Israel has the right to protect itself. If all-out war with Hezbollah becomes impossible to avoid, so be it. But bombing Lebanon isn’t making Israel more secure. As this column was going to press, Israel — responding to the horror at Qana, where missiles killed dozens of civilians, many of them children — announced a 48-hour suspension of aerial bombardment. But why resume that bombardment when the 48 hours are up? The hard truth is that Israel needs, for its own sake, to stop a bombing campaign that is making its enemies stronger, not weaker.
|
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12279 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 4:28 am: |
|
Joel, the pictures you link to from Australia show a dedicated anti-aircraft gun. I can't tell for sure, but it appears to be either a US WWII era 40 milimeter pom pom or the Russian equivalent. It is a purely defensive weapon and probably little more dangerous to a modern fighter bomber than someone throwing eggs from the roof. There is no question that Hezbollah fights from occupied areas and doesn't wear uniforms. Unfortunately, Israel seems to rise to the bait as was the case at Qana and with the UN observation post. These tactics aren't much different than the tactics used during our own Revolutionary War btw. The Brits considered shooting from cover, well, not sporting old chap. The Katusha rockets are primitive devices. They are fired from a framework made up of maybe fifty bucks worth of steel angle irons. Attacking where they were fired from is valid and possibly may disuade Hezbollah from firing them in the future. But, the close calls such as were made at Qana aren't worth the resulting flap.
|
   
tjohn
Supporter Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4599 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 6:03 am: |
|
"Also, we aren’t talking to Syria, which might hold the key to resolving the crisis, because President Bush doesn’t believe in talking to bad people, " And people complain about Carter being moralistic. |
   
Gordon Agress
Citizen Username: Odd
Post Number: 480 Registered: 8-2004
| Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 7:55 am: |
|
"Friedman is saying that Hezbollah can't be destroyed by bombing" No, Paul, he doesn't say that. I re-read quite carefully and he doesn't say much about what Israel might accomplish militarily, though he does say this: "Israel destroyed the PLO, and it got Hamas. Now it’s destroying Hamas, and it’s going to get chaos. " Which certainly implies to me that destroying Hezbollah in some fashion (perhaps not "bombing", but somehow) is a practicable option in his eyes, though hardly one he endorses. You are reading your preferred conclusions into any text you can get your hands on, but it isn't even in the texts _you_ provide. It should be obvious to anyone that your conclusions precede the facts and analysis available to you, and it seems quite likely they will survive contact with any facts or analysis that are brought to your attention. It would be more useful if you discussed the real reasons you are so opposed to this. We might then learn something useful and might get the chance to address the real heart of your opinions. But your views on the military/strategic dimension of this are a dead end. {edited}
|
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2623 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 11:16 am: |
|
A concession to FvF (and a shrug for Nohero, who wishes MEMRI weren't so darn ngative all the time):
Special Dispatch-Iran/Lebanon July 31, 2006 No. 1220 Iranian Assistance to Hizbullah - Iran Revolutionary Guards Officer: Hizbullah Has Iran-Trained Diver, Naval Commando Units; We Have Constructed Command Rooms for Hizbullah; Iranian Martyrdom Forces Have Been Sent To Lebanon To view this Special Dispatch in HTML, visit: http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD122006 . On July 29, 2006, the London Arabic daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat published a detailed article on assistance extended to Hizbullah by Iran's Revolutionary Guards, as reported by a high-ranking Revolutionary Guards officer who had trained Hizbullah naval units. According to the officer, Hizbullah has a diver unit and a naval commando unit. He further claims that Revolutionary Guards officers assisted Hizbullah in the July 14, 2006 firing of a C802 missile at an Israeli Navy ship, and had also helped Hizbullah construct underground facilities – including command and control rooms – which are being operated by Revolutionary Guards officers along with Hizbullah fighters. In addition, Iranian news agencies have published a number of reports about groups of Iranian volunteers sent to Lebanon to aid Hizbullah in its fight against Israel. The following are excerpts from these reports on Iranian assistance to Hizbullah. Revolutionary Guards Assistance to Hizbullah The following are excerpts from the Al-Sharq Al-Awsat report on aid extended to Hizbullah by Iran's Revolutionary Guards 1) "Hundreds of Hizbullah fighters currently confronting Israel's military array took part in special training courses at the Revolutionary Guards bases in Tehran, Isfahan, Mashhad and Ahvaz. According to a high-ranking [Revolutionary] Guards officer, who trained one of the Hizbullah naval units, Hizbullah has many surprises up its sleeve. Until now, there has been no direct confrontation between Hizbullah and the Israeli navy, [but] one of the Israeli navy's ships was attacked with C802 missiles with the help of Revolutionary Guards [fighters] stationed in Lebanon. Hizbullah has a divers' unit and a naval commando unit [equipped] with Chinese-made Ho-Dong speedboats, which are capable of dealing [serious] blows to the Israeli navy." The Iranian officer added that "thanks to the presence of hundreds of Iranian engineers and technicians, as well as North Korean experts brought [into Lebanon] in the guise of [domestic] servants by Iranian diplomats and by the staff at the Iranian representations and offices in Lebanon, Hizbullah has managed to build a 25-kilometer underground [tunnel]. Each opening in this [tunnel] measures 12 to 18 square meters, and has a mobile floor and a semi-mobile ceiling. Each four openings are connected by a passage that allows fighters to pass easily [from one opening] to the other. "The [Revolutionary] Guards has also built Hizbullah underground storerooms in the Beka' Valley, at a depth of no more than eight meters, which hold huge amounts of missiles and ammunition. In the Beka', there is [also] a central command room operated by four Revolutionary Guards officers and four Hizbullah [fighters]. Each sector has its [own] command and operations room. "Hizbullah's missile unit includes some 200 technicians and experts trained in Iran. Hizbullah has three missile units, each supervised by a staff of 20." 2,500 Iranian Suicide Fighters Await Khamenei's Order The following are reports recently published by Iranian news agencies regarding groups of Iranian volunteers sent to Lebanon to assist Hizbullah in its fight against Israel: On July 25, 2006, the Iranian Farda news agency quoted a report by the Iranian Labor News Agency (ILNA), stating that Hizbullah-Iran has recruited some 2,500 suicide fighters who are awaiting an order from Iran's Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei to set out to Lebanon. Hizbullah-Iran spokesman Mojtaba Bigdeli added that the Hizbullah-Iran Chairman Mohammad Baqr Kharrazi will "soon be stationed in Lebanon in order to support Hizbullah-Lebanon and to express solidarity with the resistance and with the oppressed Lebanese nation, and [also] in order to follow developments [more] closely... "Some 2,500 people who are fully willing to carry out istishhad [martyrdom] operations have signed up through groups connected to Hizbullah-Iran, so that the list [of martyrs] is now ready, and they await an order from the Supreme Leader [Ali Khamenei]..."(2) Enlisting Volunteers Online On July 26, 2006, the Iranian news agency Alborz announced that volunteers could sign up online for the "Army of the Fighters of Muhammad." The report explained that the Army of the Fighters of Muhammad was recruiting fighters to be sent to Lebanon, and that those interested in signing up could also call a telephone number in Tehran (88938821). According to the report, the minimum age for enlisting is 16. Two Groups of Martyrdom Fighters Sent To Lebanon On July 18, 2006, the Alborz news agency reported that "two groups of Iranian martyrdom fighters, who have received guidance and training, have been sent to Lebanon in order to participate in the [war on] its fronts. "Ali Mohammadi, spokesman of The World Islamic Organization's Headquarters for Commemorating the Shahids (martyrdom fighters), stated: 'These two groups, which include 27 people selected from among 55,000 who signed up, were sent to Lebanon in order to participate in the war front against the Zionist regime... These forces have undergone various forms of training... Their mission is to arrive in Lebanon by any means possible, and to carry out martyrdom operations in the event that Lebanon is occupied by the Zionist regime.' "The sending of these troops, he noted, was on a completely volunteer basis... These people were sent to Lebanon privately, and they have no organizational connection with Hizbullah... It should be noted that these 27 people have mastery of English and Arabic. They are to remain in Lebanon until further notice...'"(3) Mehr News Agency: "Two Teams [Have Been] Sent to Syria In Order to Reach The Regions Of Conflict In Lebanon" According to another report, by the Mehr news agency, on the dispatching of two suicide fighter groups to Lebanon, spokesman Mohammadi said that "two teams, one with 18 people and the other with nine, traveled separately... to Syria, in order to reach the regions of conflict in Lebanon by any means possible..." Mohammadi noted that "all 27 [team members] have mastery of Arabic, and some of them can even speak English... We have no organizational connection with Hizbullah or any other group. These people set out with the aim of helping the Lebanese people, and they are acting independently..."(4) Endnotes: (1) Al-Sharq Al-Awsat(London), July 29, 2006, http://www.asharqalawsat.com/print/default.asp?did=375420 . (2) Farda News Agency (Iran), July 25, 2006, http://fardanews.com/show/?id=22540 . (3) Alborz News Agency (Iran), July 18, 2006, http://www.alborznews.net/shownews.asp?u=6132 . (4) Mehr News Agency (Iran), July 17, 2006, as reported by the Iranian news portal www.dat.ir.
|
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2624 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 11:20 am: |
|
Agress nails a widespread moral inconsistency: "The continued calls for cease-fire and appeals to diplomacy... sort of suggests to me that the calls are coming from people who would never approve of any violence that wasn't justified with crystal clarity and moral perfection. Unfortunately, Hezbollah et al is structured to use violence itself while denying you the clarity you need for moral perfection. And I'm sorry to say it, but a blanket refusal to fight such people is a stunted species of pacifism, without the moral and philosophical bedrock that makes real pacificism a respectable philosophy and an occasionally plausible strategy." |
   
Paul Surovell
Supporter Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 676 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 11:20 am: |
|
Hi Gordon, We disagree on what Friedman said. Try these excerpts from the interview: [these are passages read by Tim Russert from Friedman's July 26th column] Quote:But Hezbollah’s militia ... can’t be wiped out at a price that Israel, or America’s Arab allies, can sustain - if at all
Quote:Whoever goes for a knockout blow will knock themselves out instead
Now regarding your claim that my conclusions are not reflected in the "texts" (plural) that I cite, obviously people can disagree on how they interpret a text. I've cited two excerpts from this text that I believe support my view that Friedman is saying that Hezbollah can't be destroyed by bombing. You may disagree. Fine. But your claim goes beyond what I've said in this post and suggests that you believe that there are other texts (plural) that I've cited that don't support the conclusions I reach and that there are "real reasons" other than the reasons I post behind my conclusions. Gordon, since you've made this personal and chosen to challenge the integrity of my posts, I think I'm entitled to respond. In order to do that I'll need to see the other texts (plural) that I've cited which you believe show that I have other "real reasons" beyond the texts for the conclusions I reach. I look forward to this discussion.
|
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1246 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 11:29 am: |
|
Hmmm... Should I come back to this thread to do a " Mr. T" on some of these posters? Show of hands, please. |
   
joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 781 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 11:44 am: |
|
About that building collapse: Why do the reports only mention women and children injured or killed? The men were doing what? jd |
   
joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 783 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 12:14 pm: |
|
from a vice president of the National Association of Chiefs of Police, Jim Kouri: UN condemnation of Israel isn't what it used to be. The UN has condemned Israel at the drop of a hat on many occasions. And where are the demands for hearings in congress and investigations regarding the 2,000 UN peacekeepers who've been in Lebanon all these years? What have they been doing? Yes, the United Nations is useless and their uselessness killed 34 children in Lebanon. But the true killer of those civilians -- including the children -- is radical Islam. It is a known tactic of Islamofascists to use innocent civilians as cannon fodder for their cause. They surround themselves with the innocent, attack their prey, and then wait for the retaliation, hoping for civilian casualties that TV cameras will project into living rooms around the globe. The Israelis were setup by these terrorists, and most of the members of the news media know they were setup. But instead of revealing the truth, they find it within their political and professional self-interest to play the terrorists' game. The United States and Israel are fighting the same enemy -- Islamofascism. The battles are raging throughout the world: Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, Lebanon, and other regions. Yet, without support -- not lip service, but true support -- it just may be in the cards that we'll be defeated; not on the battlefield, but in front of our television sets. |
|