Author |
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Strawberry
Supporter Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7636 Registered: 10-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 11:19 am: |
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Good article that all Jews need to read. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/02/washington/02prexy.html?_r=1&oref=slogin |
   
joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 797 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 11:34 am: |
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Should non-Jews read it? Should anyone read anything in the NYT without their political bias filters on maximum efficiency? j |
   
joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 798 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 11:34 am: |
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Should non-Jews read it? Should anyone read anything in the NYT without their political bias filters on maximum efficiency? jd |
   
Strawberry
Supporter Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7637 Registered: 10-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 11:47 am: |
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Non Jews can read it as well but I think the article is a MUST read for all Jews. |
   
joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 800 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 11:54 am: |
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Rather presumptuous, I think. What makes them special, to be categorized as different? jd |
   
Strawberry
Supporter Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7638 Registered: 10-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 12:02 pm: |
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It's important Jews understand the relationship between the Jewish state and the American President.
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Dave
Supporter Username: Dave
Post Number: 10301 Registered: 4-1997

| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 1:39 pm: |
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Makes Bush Sr. look lucid, fiscally conservative and in general a stabilizer of a troubled region. Makes Bush Jr. look like a sociopathic, death-worshipping chimp.
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GOP Man
Citizen Username: Headsup
Post Number: 430 Registered: 5-2005

| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 2:02 pm: |
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GWB understands the futility of diplomacy, and he understands that you never, never, ever negotiate with the evildoers. That's why he's such a great friend to Israel. He will support them until the end, provided they rely only on their military might to bring about the complete eradication of the terrorists. |
   
Strawberry
Supporter Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7639 Registered: 10-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 2:26 pm: |
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Dave, You're saying he's looks like a socipath because he supports Israel? I think you better explain that one.. |
   
Dave
Supporter Username: Dave
Post Number: 10303 Registered: 4-1997

| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 2:31 pm: |
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No, I'm saying he just is a sociopathic, death-worshipping, liberal-spending, deficit-running, science-abolishing chimp in the broadest and best senses of those terms. (This is actually an insult to chimps and I apologize for that) |
   
Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3760 Registered: 5-2001

| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 3:04 pm: |
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And you don't even have to be Jewish to agree with Dave on this one . |
   
Dave
Supporter Username: Dave
Post Number: 10306 Registered: 4-1997

| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 3:15 pm: |
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Also, if diplomacy is so futile, according to Condi "Kill Babies" Rice, how did it work with Momar Qadafi in Libya? The only victory in the war on terror was "fought" with diplomacy. But Idiotboy Bush won't speak with Syria. He's a dung beetle. |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12299 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 3:30 pm: |
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In the end Syria is a pretty secular society at the top. The Baathists are much more interested in maintaining control of the country and lining their pockets with gold than they are in waging Jihad. They can, to be blunt, be bought. Without Syria as a conduit Iran will have serious problems supplying Hezbollah. If Israel weakens Hezbollah over the next week or so there is a chance that Lebanon can be stabilized. Israel can't win a long war of attrition. They don't have the population to do this. In addition, if Hezbollah continues to get supplied with better and longer range missles Israel is going to have to continue to push back the buffer zone, leading to the war of attrition I mentioned. Joel, like terrorism the Arabs learned good public relations techniques from the Israelis.
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Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1277 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 3:38 pm: |
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Bush Sr. was nothing great and Baker was a a total tool in foreign policy IMHO. A mere step above Maddie Albright. While I didn't vote for Bush the first time, I voted for him, single issue-terrorism, the second time. Glad I did, considering the alternative and the "moral authority" and UN bs. Don't like Bush on stem cell and domestic issues but have to wonder why people are so wild as to call him a "chimp" and other demeaning stuff. Bush does have a Harvard MBA and is arguably as smart as that other son of priviledge, Teddy Kennedy. Islamic terrorism transcends dopey name-calling and anal politics. The guy is there until 2008. People need to grow up and contribute positively. And I said the same thing during Clinton. |
   
Rastro
Citizen Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3682 Registered: 5-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 3:56 pm: |
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Bob, do you really mean to say that Arabs learned terrorism from Israel? And do you really mean to say that Israel uses the media the same way that the Arabs and Palestinians have? I'm not naive. I know this is as much a war of the press as it is a war of bombs. But I trust Israel to tell the truth much more than I trust Hezbollah. |
   
tom
Citizen Username: Tom
Post Number: 5395 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 4:10 pm: |
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Quote:“He told Sharon in that first meeting that I’ll use force to protect Israel, which was kind of a shock to everybody,”
Just don't let anybody say that he used force to protect Israel. Cindy Sheehan said that, and the right can't stop castigating her for it. Maybe we just shouldn't talk about it, let it be one of those open secrets. |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12301 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 6:26 pm: |
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Rasto, yes, at least sort of. I don't think that there is any question that the settlers used such tactics against the British, the bombing of the Palestine Hotel being the most notable and I consider the murder of the UN envoy, Count Bernadotte, a travesty, especially since the Count risked his butt to issue Swedish travel documents to Jews in Nazi occupied Europe during WWII. There was also at least one massacre of Palestinian after the War of Independence. Hell Begin appears to have bragged about it. As far a public relations, especially here in the US, I think Israel has done quite a good job in hiding that they are a theocratic state, although a very unusual one. I really don't have a problem with either of the above points, only that stuff like the above gets swept under the rug. I support Israel, probably as strongly as many of the Jewish, but I think they are human beings, with all the faults that implies. |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1281 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 7:02 pm: |
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Bob K- Assad Jr. is living on borrowed time as a member of a small Alawite elite running a sunni muslim nation. Syria needs Lebanon economically, and have never viewed it as an independent state,meaning they will continue to be trouble unless and until a significant internation force willing to use force is placed in Lebanon. Actually Israel has been undergoing a war of attrition since the first Palestinian intifada, with more than 500 Israelis killed, so your comments don't bear weight. Israel could end the problem millitarily but is constrained. Are their any other nations that give on religion a special place in their country or have a state religion? Are the British undemocratic for having a Queen and a monarchy? |
   
anon
Supporter Username: Anon
Post Number: 2912 Registered: 6-2002
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 8:46 pm: |
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The Queen is the head of the Church of England. Does that make Great Britain a theocracy? Does the fact that President Bush is a self-professed "Christain" who used his only veto to block stem cell research for clearly "theological" reasons make the US a theocracy? |
   
Innisowen
Citizen Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 2187 Registered: 3-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 9:21 pm: |
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Read Kevin Phillips's American Theocracy before handing out the rhetorical questions. However, I think that the answer to your question verges on a dangerous, potential "yes." Remember that the political power in the UK is vested in the House of Commons and not in the Crown. The same is true of the remaining Western European monarchies, Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Spain. The monarch is a figurehead. The prime difference is that this president tends to view social issues (stem cell research, AIDS funding for Africa) through the lens of his "personal Christian beliefs" rather than through a humanitarian focus. The reason why I put quotation marks around the expression is my viewpoint that he holds those beliefs for public consumption only, so that he is practically guaranteed votes and support from AOG and SBC. Back home and off screen he worships at the altar of Cheney and his oil(y) buddies from the oil patches. |
   
Dave
Supporter Username: Dave
Post Number: 10309 Registered: 4-1997

| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 10:00 pm: |
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Bush league education in red states is becoming very similar to the Taliban education system. We're becoming two nations. One that embraces reason and another that embraces brainwashing. http://journal.davidbyrne.com/2006/08/american_madras.html |
   
Innisowen
Citizen Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 2188 Registered: 3-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 10:12 pm: |
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Dave: With its topsy-turvy view of evolution and creationism (whatever that is), "Toto, Kansas isn't even in Kansas anymore..." |
   
Strawberry
Supporter Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7640 Registered: 10-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 10:47 pm: |
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post number 2187 by Innisowen has been plagiarized. Sad, coming from an adult... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk_archive/Humanities/Februar y_2006 |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1288 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 10:53 pm: |
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Actually I wanted Bob K to explain his idea on how Israel is a theocracy and my questions. It's really hard to have some fun here with you all interjecting yourselves. |
   
Innisowen
Citizen Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 2189 Registered: 3-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 10:59 pm: |
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Hmmmm: As to Strawberry, I find it to be another knee-jerk mumble from the pissant... |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1290 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 11:03 pm: |
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Innisowen- Seems to me your the one who is always getting into peeing contests. Relax, it isn't like Strawberry is Donnie Rumsfeld. |
   
Innisowen
Citizen Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 2190 Registered: 3-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, August 2, 2006 - 11:27 pm: |
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Ah, do you mean "you're" as in "you are"? or "your" as in "your car, or your ticket"? When you've worked through lesson 2 of Introduction to English, we'll talk. By the way, check the Merriam Webster definition of "pissant." The definition, not the derivation. On second thought, perhaps you should read through lesson 1, but if I were you, I wouldn't try to skim it. |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12305 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 4:46 am: |
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Fact, very simply Israel was structured to be a Jewish state and is set up to remain that way with The Law of Return. Also, when all is said and done there is a very strong religious component in the return to the holy land. Isn't the last line in the Seder about being in Jerusalem next year? While non-Jewish citizens have the right to vote, they don't have any power. In a parlimentary democracy, especially one with as many parties as Israel has a group that makes up twenty percent of the voters would have some real power in forming coalitions. In Israel this isn't the case. Can anyone name a non-Jewish minister in the government without looking it up? This is why I usually cringe a little when I hear Israel touted as "the only democracy in the middle east". Other than a general distaste for theocracies I want to emphasis I don't have a problem with this. Israel was formed to be a homeland for the Jewish people. |
   
Rastro
Citizen Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3686 Registered: 5-2004

| Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 10:03 am: |
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Dave, that is truly scary. And Strawbery, your link doesn't seem to have a connection to what Innisowen wrote. |
   
Rastro
Citizen Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3687 Registered: 5-2004

| Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 10:09 am: |
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Bob, most people would not be able to name ANY minister in the Israeli government without loking it up. As for power, there are Arab members of the Knesset. I'm not sure what you mean about coalitions. I believe Arab members have as much ability to form coalitions as any other members. Just because it is not OUR flavor of democracy does not change the fact that it is a Democracy. We don't have a parlimentary system. Does that mean all parlimentary systems are wrong? India is often touted as the largest Democracy in the world. Would you say Israel's form of democracy is less fair than India's? |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12313 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 1:17 pm: |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Knesset_members
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Rastro
Citizen Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3693 Registered: 5-2004

| Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 2:54 pm: |
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And? See? You had to look it up, too.  |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1294 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 5:55 pm: |
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Bob K- Your post, to quote a galut Jewish expression, "oy vey". How is Israel a theocracy like Iran led by Mullahs? You blew off the rest of my questions as well. Why are arab members of the Knesset getting death threats for their views on the "war" in Lebanon and getting bodyguards from the State of Israel? Do you really know anything about arab representation in the Knesset? Are you too, now wikipedia dependent for your understanding of world issues like Hoops? What exactly in your mind = democracy? Give me an examples. |
   
anon
Supporter Username: Anon
Post Number: 2919 Registered: 6-2002
| Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 10:41 pm: |
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Israel was formed to be a homeland for the Jewish people. BobK: That does not make it a theocracy. You do not seem to understand that "the Jewish People" does not simply mean the adherents of a particular religion. There are atheists who are part of "The Jewish People" and have the right of return. Israel is "Jewish" like France is French, not like France is Catholic. And a "theocracy" is a nation ruled by priests. I have little doubt that the PM of Israel is less religious than the President of the US. |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2641 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 11:40 pm: |
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"Joel, like terrorism the Arabs learned good public relations techniques from the Israelis. ... I don't think that there is any question that the settlers used such tactics against the British, the bombing of the Palestine Hotel being the most notable..." BobK? Are you out of your mind? Terrorism by Arabs against Jews in Palestine well preceded the 1944 assassination of Bernadotte, the 1946 bombing of the King David Hotel, or any unprovoked violence by Jews against Arabs or British. You're the second person I've run across who advances all kinds opinions about the Israelis and the midlle east, yet apprently has never heard a thing about the Arab riots in the 1920s (especially 1929) and in 1936. It's mind-boggling. But here, for your edification:
From 1922 through 1928 the relationship between Jews and Arabs in Palestine was relatively peaceful. However, in late 1928 a new phase of violence began with minor disputes between Jews and Arabs about the right of Jews to pray at the Western Wall (Kotel) in Jerusalem. These arguments led to an outbreak of Arab violence in August 1929 when Haj Amin al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem, fomented Arab hatred by accusing the Jews of endangering the mosques and other sites holy to Islam. Observers heard Husseini issue the call: Itback al-Yahud "Slaughter the Jews!" On August 22, 1929 the leaders of the Yishuv [Jewish immigrants] met with the British Deputy High Commissioner to alert him of their fears of a large Arab riot. The British officials assured them that the government was in control of the situation. The following day the Riots of 1929 erupted throughout the Palestine Mandate, lasting for seven days. On Friday, August 23, Arab mobs attacked Jews in Jerusalem, Motza, Hebron, Safed, Jaffa, and other parts of the country. The Old City of Jerusalem was hit particularly hard. By the next day, the Haganah was able to mount a defense and further attacks in Jerusalem were repulsed. But, the violence in Jerusalem generated rumors throughout the country, many carrying fabricated accounts of Jewish attempts to defile Muslim holy places, all to inflame the Arab residents. Villages were plundered and destroyed by Arab mobs. While attacks on Jews in Tel Aviv and Haifa were thwarted by Jewish defenses, there were Jewish deaths in Hebron, where 67 Jewish men and women were slaughtered and Safed, where 18 Jews were killed, as well as scattered other losses totaling 133 Jewish deaths, with more than 300 wounded. The Arab violence in Hebron was one of the worst atrocities in the modern history of Israel. On the afternoon of Friday, August 23, 1929 Jerusalem Arabs came to Hebron with false reports of Jews murdering Arabs during the rioting there, even saying thousands of Arabs had been killed. Despite the fact that Jews and Arabs in Hebron had been on good terms, a mass of frenzied Arab rioters formed and proceeded to the Hebron Yeshiva where a lone student was murdered. The next day, the Jewish Sabbath, the killing continued as an Arab mob of hundreds surrounded homes where Jews sought refuge, broke in and murdered scores of Jews in a bloody rampage. The dead Jews that day included Eliezer Dan Slonim, a man highly esteemed by the Arabs. He was the director of the local English-Palestine bank whose many clients were Arabs, and was the sole Jewish member of the Hebron Municipal Council. He had many friends among the Arab elders, who had promised to protect him. Twenty-two people died in Slonim's house that day including his wife and two young children. By the end of the riot, during which the British police did nothing to protect the Jews or stop the violence, sixty-seven Jews were dead and hundreds wounded. The survivors were isolated in a police station for three days while the Arabs rampaged through their houses, stealing and destroying Jewish property, unmolested by the British authorities. At the end of the three days the Jews were sent to Jerusalem, exiled from their homes for the crime of being a victim of the Arab riot. Hebron's ancient Jewish quarter was empty and destroyed. For the next 39 years no Jew lived in Hebron... And:
What happened during the Arab Revolt of 1936-39? In April 1936, riots broke out in Jaffa commencing a three-year period of violence and civil strife in Palestine that is known as the Arab Revolt. The Arab Higher Committee, headed by the Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, led the campaign of terrorism against Jewish and British targets. The Arabs began by proclaiming an Arab general strike and boycott of Jewish enterprises and products. They made demands on the British Mandate administration, principally: * An end to Jewish immigration * An end to transfers of land to Jewish owners * A new "general representative government" The strike quickly led to a campaign of terror against Jewish people and lands. Seventeen Jews were killed the first day, with little action by the British to stop the rioters. Sparked by the Mufti's agitators, armed bands of Arab terrorists attacked Jewish villages and vehicles, as well as British Army and police forces. By August 1936, responding more to attacks on British assets than to the Jewish losses, the British began a military crack-down on the Arab terrorists. The Arab strike ended in October 1936 and a temporary peace between Arabs and Jews prevailed for almost a year. Then, in September 1937, following the July report by the Peel Commission, the violent tactics resumed. Armed Arab terrorism, under the direction of the Higher Committee, was used to attack the Jews and to suppress Arab opponents. This campaign of violence continued through 1938 and then tapered off, ending in early 1939. The toll was terrible: Eighty Jews were murdered by terrorist acts during the labor strike, and a total of 415 Jewish deaths were recorded during the whole 1936-1939 Arab Revolt period. And:
Britian, Haj Husseini and the Arab Riots of 1920 The British administration did not just wait on events to foster implementation their policy of increased British control in the Middle East. They worked hard, simultaneously on a second front, in Syria, against the French. In July 1919, a "Syrian National Congress" demanded the unity of Syria (that is, to include Palestine) and the installation of Faisal as king. The French expressed a fear that this sudden materialisation from nowhere of a Syrian national movement and the reversal of the popular feeling against the Sherifians was the result of a British intrigue. The British replied with denials and reassuring statements. In fact, Allenby in Cairo and his subordinates in Palestine, G.O.C. General Bols and his Chief of Staff, Col. Waters-Taylor, were secretly pressing their home government to "accept the situation": to jettison their government's pact with the French, to abandon the Zionists, and to give Syria and Palestine to Faisal. The plan, in the face of London's official Zionist policy, it had to be covered by an Arab cloak The plan, however, could, not be pursued as a bald British purpose. In the face of London's official Zionist policy, it had to be covered by an Arab cloak, and quickly. The military administration itself began creating an Arab organisation that could then be presented as the authentic voice and representative of "the Arabs" in rejecting and combating the Zionists and the Zionist policy of the British government. Here began the history of the first Arab political organisation, the Moslem Christian Association (MCA). Its first branch, in Jaffa, was organised at the inspiration of the District Military Governor, Lt. Col. J. E. Hubbard -- who had formally proposed to his superiors in the administration the setting up of an Arab organisation -- and under the personal direction of the district head of British Intelligence, Captain Brunton. Not insignificantly, the most active and disproportionately numerous early recruits were Christian Arabs. Years later, a leading member of the military administration, Sir Wyndham Deedes, admitted that from its inception the Moslem Christian Association had enjoyed the support and financial aid of the British administration.1 The purposes of the administration were now pursued by a stream of memoranda of protest and demands by the several branches of the MCA, dutifully forwarded to London with accompanying evaluations of their originality, spontaneity, sincerity, and the representative character of their signatories. A "situation" had to be created Memoranda, however, were not enough to generate quick action; a "situation" had to be created. Col. Waters-Taylor maintained contact with Faisal in Damascus, urging upon him action to assume power in Syria from the French. He assured him that the Arabs of Palestine were behind him and would welcome him as king of a "united Syria," that is, including Palestine. He urged him, moreover, "to stand up against the British Government for his principles." Early in 1920, this general effort at persuasion gave way to more specific inducement; money and arms were provided for the planned coup.2 In Jerusalem, Waters-Taylor and Col. Ronald Storrs, one of the original members of the Cairo school and now Governor of the city, established and maintained regular contact with the handful of militant Sherifians, notably Haj Amin el Husseini, the young brother of the Mufti of Jerusalem, and Aref el Aref. In early 1920, Waters-Taylor suggested to his and Storrs' Arab contacts the desirability of organising "anti-Jewish riots to impress on the Administration the unpopularity of the Zionist policy." A detailed critical report of all these activities was submitted to General Allenby by the political officer of the Palestine administration, Col. Richard Meinertzhagen. Allenby told him he would take no action.3 In March, the coup was carried out in Damascus and Faisal was installed as king, in Palestine there were riots - against the Jews The spring of 1920 was chosen for action. In March, the coup was carried out in Damascus and Faisal was installed as king. In order to achieve a sizeable riot in Palestine, the country (in the words of the subsequent military Court of Enquiry) was "infested with Sherifian officers."4 who carried on a lurid agitation against the Jews. As the court noted euphemistically, the administration took no action against them. On the Wednesday before Easter, Col. Waters-Taylor had a meeting in Jerusalem with Haj Amin el Husseini and told him "that he had a great opportunity at Easter to show the world that the Arabs of Palestine would not tolerate Jewish domination in Palestine; that Zionism was unpopular not only with the Palestine Administration but in Whitehall; and if disturbances of sufficient violence occurred in Jerusalem at Easter, both General Bols and General Allenby would advocate the abandonment of the Jewish Home" (Meinertzhagen, pp. 81-82). <b>Britain dispanded almost all Jewish regiments, soldiers and removed Jewish policemen from Jerusalem<b/> That year, Easter coincided with the Moslem festival of Nebi Musa. Its celebration included a procession starting in Jerusalem, where the crowd was addressed by the Sherifians and told to fall on the Jews "in the name of King Faisal." For doubters, there was an even more convincing argument: Adowlah ma'ana -- the government is with us. This was a demonstrable fact; all but a remnant of the Jewish regiments, that had helped liberate Palestine had been disbanded over the preceding months; the few remaining soldiers were confined to camp at Sarafand. On the day of the outbreak, all British troops and Jewish police had been removed from the Old City; only Arab policemen were left. The mob in the Old City, armed with clubs and knives, first looted shops. Then it caught and beat up or killed Jews and raped Jewish women. The Court of Enquiry -- itself a creation of the administration -- summed up: "The Jews were the victims of a peculiarly brutal and cowardly attack, the majority of the casualties being old men, women and children" (p. 76). Zeev Jabotinsky and Pinchas Rutenberg had in the preceding days hastily organised a Jewish self-defence unit. Their way into the Old City was barred at the gates by British troops. In the first flush of enthusiasm, a British military court compounded the offence in traditional fashion: The defenders were punished. Jabotinsky was sentenced to fifteen years' imprisonment and twenty of his followers were given lesser terms. But Haj Amin and el Aref had operated too openly for any government publicly to ignore their guilt. Though they escaped across the Jordan, they were sentenced in absentia to ten years' imprisonment each. "A Pogrom in Jerusalem" The British government, however much whitewash it was willing to splash over the events in Jerusalem, had to react to the outcry that went up in Europe and the United States at the phenomenon of a pogrom in Jerusalem. Nor could it ignore the factual inside information it received. Meinertzhagen, as a representative of the Foreign Office, sent a new, detailed report derived from an independent intelligence unit he had established. This, time, he bypassed Allenby and wrote directly to the Foreign Office. As a result, the sentence on Jabotinsky was quashed; the most obvious conspirators, including Bols and Waters-Taylor, were removed; the military regime was replaced by a civil administration. Storrs, more subtle than his colleagues, remained, and he was not alone.5 The Arabist purpose of the Cairo school did not change but was carried over into the civil administration of Palestine and pervaded and finally dominated the Mandatory regime. It did not succeed in creating an Arab "nation" in Palestine in 1918 It did not succeed in creating an Arab "nation" in Palestine. In 1918, at the height of his campaign to register Arab achievements, Colonel Lawrence himself had cautiously confessed in one of his confidential reports: "The phrase Arab Movement was invented in Cairo as a common denominator for all the vague discontents against Turkey which before 1916 existed in the Arab provinces. In a non-constitutional country, these naturally took on a revolutionary character and it was convenient to pretend to find a common ground in all of them. They were most of them very local, very jealous, but had to be considered in the hope that one or the other of them might bear fruit."6 In 1919 and 1920, despite the historic transformation that had taken place around them, the Arabs had not changed. When in July 1920 the French in Syria decided on a firm stand and ordered Faisal to leave the country, he meekly complied. The popular forces which his British sponsors attributed to him did not show themselves. In Jerusalem that Easter, even the Arab mob in the marketplace, before they attacked Jews, had to be fired by religious incitement, by the invocation of a living king, by the visible evidence that their victims were defenceless, and by the assurance that their violence would be welcomed by the British rulers. "Arab national feeling," he wrote, "is based on our [British] gold and nothing else" The political officer to the administration went even further: "Arab national feeling," he wrote, "is based on our gold and nothing else" (Meinertzhagen, p. 83). In the early years of the civil administration, there was still a running policy conflict between the British statesmen who had been responsible for, or associated with, the negotiations with the Zionists and the undertakings made to them and the purveyors of Laurentian pan-Arabism. The Laurentians, however, contrived to fill key posts in the Palestinian administration, and some of them were inevitably recruited to fill the posts in the Middle Eastern Department of the Colonial Office, which in 1921 took over responsibility for Palestine. The Cairo-Khartoum school, moreover, found an unexpected ally in the first chief of the civil administration, Sir Herbert Samuel. Samuel, precisely because he was a Jew, soon found himself in the position of either following the advice of his subordinates or being considered insufficiently British. In striking contrast to his English soldier-successor, Lord Plumer, who adhered as best he could to the status quo and to the brief he had from Whitehall, Samuel allowed his administration to develop naturally the anti-Zionist themes of the military administration it had replaced. An anti-Zionist official named Ernest T. Richmond, in government employ as an architect, was manoeuvred by Storrs (as is now made clear by the British government archives) into the post of assistant secretary (political), whose duties were formally those of chief adviser to the High Commissioner on Moslem affairs.7 British advice to Arab agitator-leaders Richmond, receiving a salary to carry out the London government's official policy, openly spent his time in the administration on efforts to undermine it. He gave advice to the Arab agitator-leaders. He became their intermediary and self-appointed spokesman. It was at the initiative and under the tutelage of Richmond, Storrs, and their colleagues, and under their inspiration, that the Sherifian instigators of the pogrom of 1920 were now brought back into the arena to build up a political machine so that they could claim to speak for the "Arabs of Palestine." Haj Amin el Husseini was hiding across the Jordan to avoid serving his jail sentence. Since no other candidate for this kind of leadership had appeared among the Arabs, Samuel was persuaded by Storrs to pardon Haj Amin -- and his colleague Aref el Aref -- as a "gesture"; and they returned to Jerusalem. When the incumbent Mufti of Jerusalem died soon afterward, the Moslem religious leaders convened as an electoral college to recommend a short list of three candidates from whom the High Commissioner would have to make the appointment. Haj Amin entered the contest. He had no special qualification to be the head of Moslem community in the city. He was twenty-years old and his education must have been over well before he was twenty-one, since he had served in the Turkish Army certainly before 1917. In the poll, he received the lowest number of votes and thus could not be included in the recommended list of three. Haj Husseini appointed by British as Mufti of Jerusalem - even though he received the lowest number of votes from the Moslem community Richmond launched an energetic campaign to get Samuel to appoint him nevertheless. He urged upon him the "expert" view that the poll was unimportant, that Haj Amin was the man the "Moslem population" insisted on. A virulent agitation was let loose within the Moslem community against the successful candidate, Sheikh Jurallah, who was described, among other things, as a Zionist who intended to sell Moslem holy property to the Jews. Samuel gave way. He did not in fact send Haj Amin the letter of appointment and it was never gazetted. Haj Amin simply "became" the Mufti of Jerusalem. Thus, this man, imposed on the Moslem community, became and remained, for most of the crucial years of the Mandate, the director and spearhead of the war on Zionism. The Moslem dignitaries, whom even the backward Turks had not accustomed to such outrageous interference or dictation, nevertheless took the hint. They knew now beyond any doubt what the British power expected of them. When he started on his career, however, Haj Amin's followers were few, and he had no sources of finance for the political task projected for him. This, too, had been thought of. The administration then set up a body called the Supreme Moslem Council. Haj Amin, now clothed with the authority of Mufti and authentic favourite of the British, was elected its president without difficulty. His position was entrenched: The appointment was for life, so that no opposition could ever unseat him democratically. He and his pliant subordinates became the arbiters of all Moslem religious endowments and expenditure. Many Moslems became dependent on him for their livelihood. He controlled an annual income of more than £100,000, for which he was not accountable. (By today's values, this would be equivalent in purchasing power to about $2 million.) Such was the origin of the organised "national movement" of the "Arabs of Palestine." Haj Husseini's next attack, the defenceless Yeshiva community of Hebron in 1929 The means of organising propaganda and violence against Zionism and the pattern of its organisation were thus assured. A short localised attack took place in 1921 and simultaneous onslaught in several areas in 1929. This latter attack was again distinguished by the choice of helpless, defenceless people as its target-in Hebron the bulk of the community of rabbis and yeshiva students and their wives and children were slaughtered -- and by the blatantly benevolent neutrality of the British forces of law and order, one of whose first acts was to disarm the Jewish villages. In 1936 came the last and most protracted offensive, officially organised by an informal political body called the Arab Higher Committee; it was led by Haj Amin el Husseini, still Mufti and still President of the Moslem Supreme Council. In the intervening years, the men of the Cairo school -- as they progressively increased their dominance in Palestine as well as over the central policies in the Colonial Office and the Foreign Office -- were able to deepen and diversify their campaign against Zionism. During those years, their propaganda identified Zionism with Bolshevism -- an image carrying instant demonic conviction with devout Christians as well as devout Moslems. During those years, the Lawrence myth was built into the popular history of the age, and with it the story of the "Arab Revolt" gained credence. Now the Arabs, and even the Arabs of Palestine, gradually came to play a major role in the liberation of the country from the Turks. Now, too, the claim promoted by Lawrence and embellished by Oriental imagination about how the Arabs had been "let down" by the British was broadcast as historic truth. The very real and significant Jewish share in Allenby's campaign in Palestine on both sides of the Jordan was not mentioned. [...] 1. J. E. Hubbard to Occupied Enemy Territory Administration, November 20, 1918. Israel State Archives, Pal. Govt. Secretariat File No. 40. Quoted in Y. Porat, Tsemihat Hatenua Ha’aravit Hapalestinait 1918-1929 (Tel Aviv, 1971), P. 24. 2. Samuel, Unholy Memories, p. 9. 3. Meinertzhagen, Middle East Diary 1917-1956 (London, 1959), pp. 55-56. 4. Report of Court of Enquiry, FO 371/5121, p. 38. 5. Henrietta Szold, the American Zionist leader, described Storrs as "an evil genius, who despises Jews." Marvin Lowenthal, Henrietta Szold (New York, 1942), pp. 186-187. 6. T. E. Lawrence, Secret Despatches from Arabia (London, 1939), p. 158. 7. FO 371/5267 file E 9433/8343/44; FO 371/5268 files E 11720/8343/44, 11835/8343/44. -Joseph E. Katz
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J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2642 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 11:43 pm: |
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Oh, and BobK? The Arabs who "learned terrorism" from Jews appear to have forgot this lesson:
Despite its initial approval, repeated delays of the operation were requested by the Haganah in response to the changing political situation. The plan consisted of Irgun men, dressed as hotel employees and carrying the explosives which were concealed in milk cans, entering the building from a Cafe at the ground floor, and placing the charges below the Hotel Wing where the British institutions were located. Finally it was decided the attack would take place on July 22 at 11:00 (as at this time the Cafe would be relatively empty). The attack used approximately 350 kg of explosives spread across six charges. Due to a delay the operation started at 12:00, and a minor gunfight ensued with two British military men who became suspicious and tried to intervene. After placing the bombs, the Irgun men quickly escaped and detonated a small explosive in the street outside the hotel to keep passers-by away from the area. A warning message was delivered to the telephone operator of the King David Hotel before the attack and also delivered to the French consulate and the Palestine Post newspaper. According to Irgun sources, the message read "I am speaking on behalf of the Hebrew underground. We have placed an explosive device in the hotel. Evacuate it at once - you have been warned." Irgun representatives have always claimed that the warning was given well in advance so that adequate time was available to evacuate the hotel. Menachem Begin writes (p. 221, The Revolt, <1951> ed.) that the telephone message was delivered 25 - 27 minutes before the explosion. The British authorities denied for many years that there had been a warning at all, but the leaking of the internal police report on the bombing during the 1970s proved that a warning had indeed been received. However, the report stated that the warning was only just being delivered to the officer in charge as the bomb went off. |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12315 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 4:44 am: |
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JC, the logical problem with Mr. Katz's justification is that he equates rioting with terrorism. A case can be made that because the Palestine Hotel was a British headquarters it was a justified target and the civilians, including a number of Jewish settlers, who were killed were collateral damage, to use the modern term. A warning such as the one that was given (I accept it was, I don't subscribe to the theroy that the papers found in the 1970s were planted) doesn't resolve the Stern Gang from responsibility for their actions. Interestingly, "warnings" are still used by the Israeli military, as has been the case in Lebanon. I think the theroy behind them is to be able to feel that anyone who doesn't beat feet is a terrorist.
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Rastro
Citizen Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3696 Registered: 5-2004

| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 10:14 am: |
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Bob, you keep refering to the Palestine Hotel. You mean this one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Hotel I don't recall hearing about any bombing by settlers of this hotel. or do you mean the King David Hotel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel? Yes, it was built by the Palestine Hotel Company, but it was never known as the Palestine Hotel. And your continued use of that phrase belies your claims to being "pro-Israel." "I think the theroy behind them is to be able to feel that anyone who doesn't beat feet is a terrorist. " Rather cynical, I'd say. This goes back to "what do you believe?" Do you believe that Israel is more concerned with killing Arabs, or is more concerned with reducing civilian casualties? While the press seems to indicate the former, knowing people in the IDF, I still believe it is the latter. |
   
Strawberry
Supporter Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7648 Registered: 10-2001
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 10:34 am: |
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Another must read Life In An Orwellian Universe By Charles Krauthammer Israel's moral scrupulousness is being paid in blood - and yet they're still branded as evil personified. What other country, when attacked in an unprovoked aggression across a recognized international frontier, is then put on a countdown clock by the world, given a limited time window in which to fight back, regardless of whether it has restored its own security? What other country sustains 1,500 indiscriminate rocket attacks into its cities - every one designed to kill, maim and terrorize civilians - and is then vilified by the world when it tries to destroy the enemy's infrastructure and strongholds with precision-guided munitions that sometimes have the unintended but unavoidable consequence of collateral civilian death and suffering? Hearing the world pass judgment on the Israel-Hezbollah war as it unfolds is to live in an Orwellian moral universe. With a few significant exceptions (the leadership of the United States, Britain, Australia, Canada and a very few others), the world - governments, the media, U.N. bureaucrats - has completely lost its moral bearings. The word that obviates all thinking and magically inverts victim into aggressor is "disproportionate," as in the universally decried "disproportionate Israeli response." When the United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor, it did not respond with a parallel "proportionate" attack on a Japanese naval base. It launched a four-year campaign that killed millions of Japanese, reduced Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki to a cinder, and turned the Japanese home islands to rubble and ruin. Disproportionate? No. When one is wantonly attacked by an aggressor, one has every right - legal and moral - to carry the fight until the aggressor is disarmed and so disabled that it cannot threaten one's security again. That's what it took with Japan. Britain was never invaded by Germany in World War II. Did it respond to the blitz and V-1 and V-2 rockets with "proportionate" aerial bombardment of Germany? Of course not. Churchill orchestrated the greatest land invasion in history that flattened and utterly destroyed Germany, killing untold innocent German women and children in the process. The perversity of today's international outcry lies in the fact that there is indeed a disproportion in this war, a radical moral asymmetry between Hezbollah and Israel: Hezbollah is deliberately trying to create civilian casualties on both sides while Israel is deliberately trying to minimize civilian casualties, also on both sides. In perhaps the most blatant terror campaign from the air since the London blitz, Hezbollah is raining rockets on Israeli cities and villages. These rockets are packed with ball bearings that can penetrate automobiles and shred human flesh. They are meant to kill and maim. And they do. But it is a dual campaign. Israeli innocents must die in order for Israel to be terrorized. But Lebanese innocents must also die in order for Israel to be demonized, which is why Hezbollah hides its fighters, its rockets, its launchers, its entire infrastructure among civilians. Creating human shields is a war crime. It is also a Hezbollah specialty. On Wednesday, CNN cameras showed destruction in Tyre. What does Israel have against Tyre and its inhabitants? Nothing. But the long-range Hezbollah rockets that have been raining terror on Haifa are based in Tyre. What is Israel to do? Leave untouched the launch sites that are deliberately placed in built-up areas? Had Israel wanted to destroy Lebanese civilian infrastructure, it would have turned out the lights in Beirut in the first hour of the war, destroying the billion-dollar power grid and setting back Lebanon 20 years. It did not do that. Instead, it attacked dual-use infrastructure - bridges, roads, airport runways - and blockaded Lebanon's ports to prevent the reinforcement and resupply of Hezbollah. Ten-thousand Katyusha rockets are enough. Israel was not going to allow Hezbollah 10,000 more. Israel's response to Hezbollah has been to use the most precise weaponry and targeting it can. It has no interest, no desire to kill Lebanese civilians. Does anyone imagine that it could not have leveled south Lebanon, to say nothing of Beirut? Instead, in the bitter fight against Hezbollah in south Lebanon, it has repeatedly dropped leaflets, issued warnings, sent messages by radio and even phone text to Lebanese villagers to evacuate so that they would not be harmed. Israel knows that these leaflets and warnings give the Hezbollah fighters time to escape and regroup. The advance notification as to where the next attack is coming has allowed Hezbollah to set up elaborate ambushes. The result? Unexpectedly high Israeli infantry casualties. Moral scrupulousness paid in blood. Israeli soldiers die so that Lebanese civilians will not, and who does the international community condemn for disregarding civilian life?
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sbenois
Supporter Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15489 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 10:38 am: |
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Great article. |
   
tjohn
Supporter Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4621 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 10:44 am: |
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In WW II, all of the powers of the world were involved. There was nobody of consequence on the sidelines to second-guess our execution of the war. Israel doesn't have that luxury. There are any number of people on the sidelines offering "expert advice" to Israel. There is the ongoing pretension that morality has something to do with international affairs. It doesn't. Appeals to morality are most useful in preaching to the choir. They don't seem to sway people already committed to an opposite point of view.
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J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2646 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 11:01 am: |
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"C, the logical problem with Mr. Katz's justification is that he equates rioting with terrorism." Let me get this straight, BobK. Arab rioters shoot up or blow up a bus, or raid homes and slaughter the civilians inside it in 1929 or 1936, and it's not terrorism. But the same actions in 1975 or 1982 or 2006, committed for the same reasons and directed against the same kinds of targets, are terrorism? I think you got some splainin' to do. |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2647 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 11:11 am: |
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"There is the ongoing pretension that morality has something to do with international affairs. It doesn't. Appeals to morality are most useful in preaching to the choir. They don't seem to sway people already committed to an opposite point of view." You're right, TJohn, that morality hasn't got a whole lot to do with international affairs. But appeals to morality are enormously successful in mobilizing opinion among the 99.9% of people in the world who cannot or will not understand that. Which is why Krauthammer's essay reminding people of the relative moral compasses of Hizballah and the IDF is necessary. |
   
joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 829 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 11:13 am: |
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He must be British: Here from melaniephillips.com is why, received today: August 3, 2006 The war against Israel (5) Eight Israeli civilians were killed today by Hezbollah which fired 130 rockets at Israel within a ninety-minute period. 130 in 90 minutes! And at such a tiny country! Israel is smaller than Wales. Just imagine if humdreds rockets were fired from Scotland, say, at Wales with a view to wiping Wales off the map and murdering all Welsh people. If only a small number of rockets were fired at Britain day after day, it would be at war. Can anyone doubt that if Britain was subjected to the kind of bombardment Israel has been enduring, with 100, 150, 200 rockets per day being fired at its towns and cities with the express purpose of wiping it out altogether, Britain’s armed forces would be responding with ferocity to put a stop to it? Yet in Britain, the rules for the Jewish state are totally different. Israel is under genocidal attack, Ahmadinejad says the way to achieve peace in the Middle East is for Israel to be destroyed, one third of Israel is living in bomb shelters, its defence forces have their hands tied behind their backs because Hezbollah has hidden its rockets among civilians with the monstrous intention that as many of them as possible should be killed in order to turn the west against Israel victims; and yet as Haaretz reports, the Edinburgh Film Festival has barred an Israeli film director from the screening of his own work because ‘it might be in your best interest not to attend the festival this year for your own sake, rather than for ours’, BBC News Online thinks the most important news of the day is Lebanon damage ‘holding up’ aid Aid agencies in Lebanon say the severe damage to roads and bridges by Israeli air strikes is having a drastic effect on distribution of badly needed aid. Goods can only be transported in small lorries for fears that larger vehicles will be targeted, they say, and Tony Blair is under siege from his Labour MPs who are consumed with righteous anger not against Hezbollah which is using the Lebanese as human shields, not against Ahmadinejad for his neo-Hitlerian agenda, but against Israel, their chosen victims, for refusing this time to line up passively to be slaughtered. Thus the Labour party and much of Britain (along with similarly-minded folk elsewhere: the New York Times is on this vile bandwagon, too) respond to genocidal aggression by viciously turning upon its designated victims for having the gall to defend themselves. If, heaven forbid, this does turn into a second Holocaust, we can now discern the key difference from the first one. This time the Jews will be blamed for their own destruction. And this time, the political left and the media will have blood on their hands. Indeed, they already do. The lies, libels and distortions, the selective reporting and omissions, the egregious double standards, the moral inversion which turns jihadi murderers into resistance fighters and their victims into war criminals, the willingess to report Hezbollah propaganda as the truth while disparaging Israeli statements as lies (when they are even reported at all), not to mention the ancient canards against the Jews now being blurted out everywhere from California to Canary Wharf – all are not only creating a lethal climate of increasingly hysterical hatred against Israel and the Jews, but are also egging on the terror-puppeteers of the jihad and recruiting yet more to the cause of murdering Jews and waging holy war against the west. As ever, Mark Steyn lays bare the savage truth: For centuries, Jews were viewed as sinister wandering rootless cosmopolitan figures of no national allegiance. So they became a conventional sovereign state and now they’re hated for that. The standard defense is that it’s not anti-Semitic to criticize Israeli policies, but, as Miss Campbell’s letter suggests, what’s being questioned is not Israel’s policies but the right of Israel to have policies, especially on national security. If, say, some fellows in Mexico had kidnapped California State Troopers and were lobbing rockets randomly into residential areas of San Diego and Los Angeles, even La-La-Land libs would be demanding the US respond. It’s only the Israelis the world wishes to deny the conventional rights of sovereignty. In other words, it’s the legitimacy of the state that’s at issue. In effect, Israel has become the geopolitical version of the European Jew who’s allowed to operate a store in the town but not to exercise full ownership rights: in the old days, Jews faced property restrictions; now they face sovereignty restrictions. The old chestnut that to be anti-Israel is not necessarily to be anti-Jew won’t wash. Antisemitism is protean. It changes shape from generation to generation. First, Jews were hated on account of their religion. Then they were hated on account of their (supposed) race. And now they are hated on account of their nation state. Just as the individual Jew was once made the universal scapegoat for the crimes of others, now the collective Jew in the Jewish state is being forced to play the same role. Israel is the defining moral issue of our time. Appallingly, Britain has put itself on the wrong side. The prejudice that now consumes what passes for public debate simply puts it beyond the moral pale. What is happening now in Britain is shocking beyond words. "egregious double standards" seems to be on target, but, perhaps, is a disproportionate verbal response, methinks. |
   
tjohn
Supporter Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4623 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 11:34 am: |
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JCrohn, To be honest, I would expect Europeans to have some concern for fairness regarding Israel. Instead, they seem to have the subtle and nuanced position that Israel has the right to exist and Hamas and Hezabollah have the right to fire rockets into Israel. |
   
joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 831 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 11:44 am: |
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Yogi Berra: it's deja vu all over again: Victor Hanson: ditto: In this context Victor Davis Hanson's weekly NRO column seems particularly timely: "The brink of madness." Hanson writes: These past few days the inability of millions of Westerners, both here and in Europe, to condemn fascist terrorists who start wars, spread racial hatred, and despise Western democracies is the real story, not the “quarter-ton” Israeli bombs that inadvertently hit civilians in Lebanon who live among rocket launchers that send missiles into Israeli cities and suburbs. Yes, perhaps Israel should have hit more quickly, harder, and on the ground; yes, it has run an inept public relations campaign; yes, to these criticisms and more. But what is lost sight of is the central moral issue of our times: a humane democracy mired in an asymmetrical war is trying to protect itself against terrorists from the 7th century, while under the scrutiny of a corrupt world that needs oil, is largely anti-Semitic and deathly afraid of Islamic terrorists, and finds psychic enjoyment in seeing successful Western societies under duress. In short, if we wish to learn what was going on in Europe in 1938, just look around. |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2649 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 12:09 pm: |
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"Instead, they seem to have the subtle and nuanced position that Israel has the right to exist and Hamas and Hezabollah have the right to fire rockets into Israel." Close. They have the subtle and nuanced position that Israel has the right to exist, that Hamas and Hizballah have the right to fire rockets into Israel, and that Israel does not have the right to fire back with force sufficient to deter further attacks. In other words, they hold that Israel has the right to exist until such time as aggrieved Arabs, toward whom they feel guilty on account of European imperialism, are able to make Israel's continued existence untenable, thereby finally expiating European sin. |
   
Strawberry
Supporter Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7650 Registered: 10-2001
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 12:13 pm: |
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Yes, another reason to thank god for Bush.. |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2650 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 12:14 pm: |
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The Financial Times has been so egregious lately, so indistinguishable from a propaganda arm of the Hizballah, that I am seriously considering canceling my subscription and sending the balance of my payment to Israel. |
   
sbenois
Supporter Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15490 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 12:16 pm: |
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Yeah, but it's still better than the News-Record. |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12320 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 12:17 pm: |
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JC, I have never heard the draft riots here in NYC during the Civil War or the riots against blacks in Oklahoma refered to as terrorism. They were riots and people died in large numbers. Why is it different in then Palestine? My whole point here isn't to demonize Israel, but try to get people to realize that they aren't perfect and that there are a fair number of skeletons in their closet, just like everyone else. |
   
joel dranove
Citizen Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 833 Registered: 1-2006
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 12:42 pm: |
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bobk: There is no Palestine. Arabs created the PLO in 1964, in Saudi Arabia, the desert tribal oil depot. They needed a devil, chose the obvious one, and want to complete the failed 1948 war more to their liking. Who is the Glubb Pasha in this version? If your purpose is to prove the obvious, you have wasted your time, and taken positions which reek of the "egregious double standard" discussed above. jd |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12321 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 1:03 pm: |
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Joel, actually, I think I am trying to eliminate the double standard, but that is just my opinion. I think it is news to many, especially ships that flew the flag, that there was no Palestine during the British Mandate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2651 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 1:05 pm: |
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"JC, I have never heard the draft riots here in NYC during the Civil War or the riots against blacks in Oklahoma refered to as terrorism. They were riots and people died in large numbers. Why is it different in then Palestine?" Well, it appears you've gotten snared in a semantics of your own devising. I certainly don't regard race riots aimed at non-combatants as significantly different from terrorism. But here's something about the draft riots, against which to compare the murderous Arab attacks on Jewish families in their homes in pre-state Palestine:
The rioters' targets initially included only military and governmental buildings, symbols of the unfairness of the draft. Mobs attacked only those individuals who interfered with their actions. But by afternoon of the first day, some of the rioters had turned to attacks on black people, and on things symbolic of black political, economic, and social power. Rioters attacked a black fruit vendor and a nine-year-old boy at the corner of Broadway and Chambers Street before moving to the Colored Orphan Asylum on Fifth Avenue between Forty-Third and Forty-Fourth Streets. By the spring of 1863, the managers had built a home large enough to house over two hundred children. Financially stable and well-stocked with food, clothing, and other provisions, the four-story orphanage at its location on Fifth Avenue and Forty-Second Street was an imposing symbol of white charity toward blacks and black upward mobility. At 4 P.M. on July 13, "the children numbering 233, were quietly seated in their school rooms, playing in the nursery, or reclining on a sick bed in the Hospital when an infuriated mob, consisting of several thousand men, women and children, armed with clubs, brick bats etc. advanced upon the Institution." The crowd took as much of the bedding, clothing, food, and other transportable articles as they could and set fire to the building. John Decker, chief engineer of the fire department, was on hand, but firefighters were unable to save the building. The destruction took twenty minutes. In the meantime, the superintendent and matron of the asylum assembled the children and led them out toForty-Fourth Street. Miraculously, the mob refrained from assaulting the children. But when an Irish observer of the scene called out, "If there is a man among you, with a heart within him come and help these poor children," the mob "laid hold of him, and appeared ready to tear him to pieces." The children made their way to the Thirty-Fifth Street Police Station, where they remained for three days and nights before moving to the almshouse on Blackwell's Island—ironically, the very place from which the orphanage's founders had hoped to keep black children when they built the asylum almost thirty years earlier. "The New York City Draft Riots of 1863," Leslie Harris http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html As for the riots against blacks in Oklahoma, again, of course they were terroristic. Nor does this makes Arab terrorism against Jews into a matter of 'mere riots', or buttress your original idiotic claim that the Zionists taught terrorism to the Arabs.
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Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12322 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 1:13 pm: |
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JC, never said "mere riots". Also, the post you made is only one small part of what happened. Eventually Federal troops were brought in from Gettyberg to put down the riots. |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2652 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 1:45 pm: |
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Hahahaha! Bob, you are spinning faster than a top. |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12324 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Friday, August 4, 2006 - 1:57 pm: |
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I am not the only one, although I am not sure I am spinning. I really want to avoid starting to post various activities that the settlers engaged in during their struggle for independence. If the Arabs were smart enough to learn from them or not I will admit is an open question. Personally I think the term terroism is used too much. I will struggle to get my brain in gear and try to define what I think the term means. In the intermim I will paraphrase Justice Potter, I believe, and his comment on pornography, I know what it is when I see it.
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