| Author |
Message |
    
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7662
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 7, 2006 - 8:35 pm: | 
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http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y
radical libs, bunch of dopes. |
JMF
Citizen
Username: Jmf
Post Number: 268
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 7, 2006 - 9:07 pm: |
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I never really believed in the conspiracies.
I do however have to scratch my head about flights 77 and 93.
An hour after the first plane, I don't unerstand why we were in the position that the pentagon actually could be hit.
I don't think... or I don't want to think that it is any kind of conspiracy... but it is odd that the center for our DoD was able to be attacked by a plane.
Not a missile, not a jet... a plane... an hour after we were attacked.
Almost an hour and a half after the 1st plane hit... Flight 93 is still flying?
This is the only conspiracy I do believe in.
I believe that flight was shot down. I think the cover-up would be incredibly difficult, so I still question it...
We were being attacked. There were questions as to where that flight was going, It should have been shot down. I know that is horrible to say... but it could have ended worse if it hit the target.
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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5412
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 7, 2006 - 9:24 pm: |
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There's no debunking the incompetence theory. As said on another thread, "failure and f***up." |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7663
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - 9:53 am: |
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Very important topic. Let's make this today's subject. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 10360
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - 10:01 am: |
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I can't find the page about the administration's lies about WMD/yellowcake in a state of the union address or why Bush said he doesn't consider pursuing Bin Laden a priority.
Maybe that story will appear in Field & Stream |
llama
Citizen
Username: Llama
Post Number: 817
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - 10:23 am: |
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I was come across anything about the future generations of islamic extremists the war in Iraq has promised in Parenting magazine as of yet.
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Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7665
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - 10:44 am: |
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Dave,
You know it's a bad day for you when Llama is attempting to steal your material. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 2229
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - 10:51 am: |
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Below is the line from the first full paragraph of the "linked" story:
"Three and a half years later, not everyone is convinced we know the truth."
Which makes the above an article into something published no later than mid-2004.
And from Popular Mechanics, the home handyman's equivalent of Archie Comics.
Strawberry: value-less, content-free, pitiful. And with what might be an 8th grader's reading level. |
llama
Citizen
Username: Llama
Post Number: 818
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - 11:25 am: |
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I would rather steal from Dave than Popular Mechanics. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3708
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - 11:29 pm: |
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"Published in the March, 2005 issue."
Straw, as with the times as ever. |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7673
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - 11:41 pm: |
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Rastro forgot this is an election year..how foolish. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5427
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 12:03 am: |
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Enjoy the past, soon it will be all you have. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 2234
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 12:04 am: |
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Great source!
Why bother with National Review, The Economist, Foreign Affairs, or other similar periodicals?
You can do like Straw: read and cite Pop Mech.
Get your conspiracy theory in the same mag as instructions on how to build that indestructible backyard birdbath or raise alpacas for fun and profit, as the articles and ads in Pop Mech state.
At least they did when by the age of 12, I stopped reading the magazine.
Of course by now, Pop Mech may be the equivalent of The Congressional Record, for some people.
Straw: sans contenu, sans valeur, mais pitoyable. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5428
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 12:08 am: |
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What cracks me up is that it's "bad news for libs."
I can see it now, "bad news for conservatives, Betty of Archie Comics is pro-choice" |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7675
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 7:44 am: |
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Tom,
Radical libs have been leading the 911 conspiracy angle that now dominates some college campuses. Yes, folks like yourself actually believe the U.S. was behind the attacks. So, yes this report is terrible news for you. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 2235
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 8:10 am: |
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And I imagine that the instructions for the backyard birdbath are all screwed up as well.
And those poor Alpacas.
Straw: pitiful. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5430
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 8:39 am: |
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I'm not part of any conspiracy cabal. But I do believe that the Bush administration represents failure and f***up. The dropped the ball in every conceivable way on 9/11. |
Twokitties
Citizen
Username: Twokitties
Post Number: 487
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 8:39 am: |
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notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3683
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 9:20 am: |
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August 3, 2006 at 05:52:51
Chain of Deceit: From the Pentagon to the 9/11 Commission to the Public
by Russ Wellen
http://www.opednews.com
-- Astonishing as it sounds, a conference featuring the 9/11 Scholars for Truth was aired on C-SPAN.
-- In his Washington Post article, "9/11 Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon," Dan Eggen reported, "Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public. . ."
"We to this day don't know why NORAD told us what they told us," Commission Chair Thomas H. Kean said. "It was just so far from the truth."
-- According to a new Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll, "More than a third of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East."
Still more surprising, 16 percent think the collapse of the World Trade Towers was expedited by controlled demolition while 12 percent suspect the Pentagon was struck by a missile, not Flight 77.
Eye-opening as these results are, they're not unprecedented. According to Scripps/Howard, "The level of suspicion of U.S. official involvement in a 9/11 conspiracy was only slightly behind the 40 percent who suspect 'officials in the federal government were directly responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy.'"
Kean's colleague, 9/11 Commisssion vice chair Lee Hamilton, conceded the results of the poll. "A lot of people I've encountered believe the U.S. government was involved." But he remains unmoved. "Of course, we don't think the evidence leads that way at all."
What Hamilton doesn't get is that he's only contributing to this monumental lack of faith in our own government. Just as when the commission blocked testimony about explosions by the likes of White House-honored 9/11 hero William Rodriguez.
Three decades before, when President Kennedy was killed, it was bad that enough the exuberant national mood he personified (one of his few accomplishments) was punctured. But the Warren Commission, no doubts in the interest of that our sainted "national unity," took the easy way out and refused to face the complexities of the case and their implications. Feeding the public facile explanations credible only to those with a vested interest in blocking the truth seeded our national disaffection with the government. It's since grown like a weed.
In the long run, the Warren Commission and 9/11 Commission have proven as injurious to the country as the crimes they were appointed to investigate. Sure, we'd be traumatized if we discovered that government figures colluded with the Mob to kill Kennedy. Or that some element of the government, whether sanctioned or rogue, facilitated fanatical Islamist's machinations by means of controlled detonations.
But if parties were indicted and tried, it would go a long way toward restoring the public's faith in the government. Also, note to the powers that be: If conspirators were RICO'd to smithereens, it would strip conspiracists of their theories. Once proven, a theory morphs into a crime, and the theorist is back at square one looking for a new one to champion.
Oh, for the halcyon days of yore, when conspiracy theorists were paranoid-schizophrenics, not respectable citizens like today.
Russ Wellen, who frequently writes about nuclear terrorism, is an editor at Freezerbox.com. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4640
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 9:29 am: |
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It's not the incompetence that kills us, it's the subsequent efforts to cover up the incompetence that do. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3684
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 9:38 am: |
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On the C-SPAN program "Theories of 9/11," physicist Steven Jones from BYU said that two independently obtained samples of debris from the WTC site contained traces of thermate. This is an explosive used for controlled demolition and, as Wikipedia describes it, "military applications."
By the way, there are several fine discussions of the many shortcomings of, and strawmen hung by, the Popular Mechanics article. One of them is here. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 10378
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 9:43 am: |
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The CIA visited Bin Laden 2 months before 9/11 in Dubai. There are, of course, denials.
http://tinyurl.com/29xvv
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Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7676
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 9:44 am: |
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Nope, You're completely wrong Notehead and very anti American. I'm ashamed of you. Anyone who believes America set up 9/11 to start a war in the middle east is very sick and needs help.
I'm hopeful you get the help you need. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1996
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 9:51 am: |
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I sometimes envy simpleminded Repubs. I really do. Imagine living your life in a brave new world where you never had to examine tough questions no matter how much evidence was put in front in you, and have absolute blind faith in even the most dubious political leaders? Imagine being relieved of the burden of intellegent thought and curiousity? Dismissing scientific facts with the wave of an American flag, or bible? Life would certainly be simpler. God be praised. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4642
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 9:52 am: |
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If we are going to have a conspiracy discussion, can't we at least make sure the underlying facts make sense.
If I wanted to blow up something, I would not use thermite. Besides, with an airplane full of fuel, I don't need thermite to start an impressive fire.
Thermite is not an explosive. It is a chemical mixture that burns at extremely high temperatures. In the civilian world, it is used for welding. One military application is to spike artillery pieces as the molten iron will destroy the weapon.
It used to be an ingredient in incendiary bombs, but napalm is far more effective. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 10379
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 10:03 am: |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zUht6cLkMc
Very detailed.
Creepy. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5432
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 10:04 am: |
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Notehead said "thermate," which is different from "thermite." |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 2236
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 10:53 am: |
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Enough of this:
Well, If you read the follow-on article in a subsequent issue of Pop Mech (the one which has the detailed instructions on how to build the perfect cage for the Texas sapsucker), you will read about a vicious rumour circulating in the Southwest that Bush 43 has fathered a lamb out of wedlock, and it's the talk of everyone west of the Pecos.
However, since we live east of the Pecos, it hardly gets mentioned here.
No wonder 43 always has that sheepish grin. |
mjh
Supporter
Username: Mjh
Post Number: 739
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 10:55 am: |
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ROLF! |
mjh
Supporter
Username: Mjh
Post Number: 740
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 10:56 am: |
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or ROFL
laughing too hard to spell, I guess |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7680
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 11:33 am: |
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rolf, how silly.. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 10385
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 11:38 am: |
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Rolling on Linoleum Flooring |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4644
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 12:05 pm: |
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Let's skip the needless trivia. Thermite and THERMATE are burning chemicals, not explosives. And since it is perfectly plausible and factual that burning jet fuel would cause a weakening of steel to the point of structural failure, I don't understand why we need the thermite or thermate.
And, it is a well-known fact that steel beams fail in fires. |
mjh
Supporter
Username: Mjh
Post Number: 741
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 12:06 pm: |
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You're so right Dave (I'm at the office and the floor appears to be linoleum). Unfortunately it's also a little sticky.
Anyway, Inni is really funny (unless, of course, you're too dumb to understand him). |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3689
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 2:24 pm: |
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Tjohn, my understanding is that thermate is specifically used in building demolition, in a manner similar to another explosive called RDX.
Check out this page...
http://www.bushstole04.com/thermatewtc_controlled_demoliti.htm
Also, I have to question your statement that "it is a well-known fact that steel beams fail in fires." Can you back that up? |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4649
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 3:10 pm: |
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I think I will trust Wikipedia over a website entitled Bushstole04. Wikipedia describes thermate as a variation of thermite. It is perhaps, a cutting torch on steriods, but not an explosive compound.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4650
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 3:18 pm: |
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Notehead,
Regarding steel failure in fires, try this article.
http://www.mutualbox.com/a_building_fire_and_structural_f.htm
Or go see any steel frame building such as a warehouse that has burned.
I wanted to post some federal government papers, but they can be trusted as they are part of the conspiracy. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3692
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 4:25 pm: |
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Hey, I've got a great 9/11 conspiracy theory. Check it out...
Apparently, there are some people out there who think that 19 Arab hijackers somehow managed to commandeer 4 planes simultaneously, fly them around US airspace for nearly 2 hours, and then crash them into important buildings without the US intelligence services having any idea that it was coming or the Air Force even responding to it. These supposed hijackers allegedly only had training in Cessnas and simulators, yet pulled off maneuvers in fully loaded commercial airliners that experienced pilots say were almost impossibly difficult. They got onto the planes without being filmed by any security cameras, and without the discovery of any of the guns, knives, box cutters, gas, gas masks, and electronic guidance systems they are said to have been brought on board. They managed to take control of all four planes without the crews of any of them managing to enter in the 4-digit code alerting air traffic control to a hijacking. The planes exploded on impact, although that rarely happens when planes crash. The explosions were sufficient to almost completely, vaporize the planes, even though the heat of combusting jet fuel doesn't begin to approach the boiling point of the aluminum, steel or titanium a jet is made of. However, the same explosions which vaporized jets apparently left sufficient fuel lying around to burn long enough and hot enough to bring down skyscrapers that were supposedly constructed to resist exactly this sort of attack. And there was also enough of this insidious fuel to creep all around the buildings and start fires on other floors far from the impacts. The spikes in Richter-scale readings which occurred at the WTC site just before the collapse of each tower apparently had nothing to do with the incident, and it's just bad luck that WTC7 -- a building which was built to standards that far exceeded other buildings right around it, collapsed as a result of the shock wave from the collapse of the other towers, although other weaker buildings were largely unaffected. And it must have been the magical will of Allah that caused the buildings to collapse straight down at a speed that would have been absolutely impossible if, as the theorists claim, each floor or group of floors smashed into the one below. Somehow, the intense heat which vaporized these planes must have gone around bits of DNA which the government used to identify the hijackers, because normally DNA is destroyed at around 100C. And on and on.
Now that's what I call a conspiracy theory. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4653
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 4:28 pm: |
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Much better theory as it, among other things, weaves governmental incompetence into the conspiracy. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3693
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 5:16 pm: |
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That's certainly it's strongest point.
How could it be that NONE of the engines of any plane, and NONE of the black boxes, were recovered? This had never happened before in any major domestic airplane crash, but happened with all four of the 9/11 planes. (And yet the passport of one alleged hijacker survived.)
How could so little evidence be left at the site of the alleged crash in PA?
While a 1000-degree fire can soften steel in standard truss construction to cause a collapse, skyscraper construction is an entirely different animal. No skyscraper had collapsed as a result of fire like that EVER BEFORE (or since), including the Meridian Plaza which burned on many floors for 19 hours in 1991 without collapsing. But suddenly we have THREE buildings collapse in the same unprecedented manner on the same day, and only two of them from the same supposed cause?
Why were so few flames visible in the towers, especially if the fires were supposedly severe enough to weaken the supporting columns enough to cause the collapses?
Why does the FDNY remain under a gag order that prohibits them from discussing the explosions they experienced?
Why were the collapses each preceded by seismic events, just like the one that comes before controlled demolitions, such as the Seattle Kingdome?
Impact holes from plane crashes have historically been roughly 3 times the size of the plane. Why were the holes in the towers and Pentagon smaller than the planes that supposedly hit them? |
MBJ
Citizen
Username: Mbj
Post Number: 227
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 5:33 pm: |
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"No skyscraper had collapsed as a result of fire like that EVER BEFORE (or since), including the Meridian Plaza which burned on many floors for 19 hours in 1991 without collapsing. But suddenly we have THREE buildings collapse in the same unprecedented manner on the same day, and only two of them from the same supposed cause? "
How many skyscrapers, built in the same matter as the Trade Towers, had been hit by jetliners loaded with jet fuel prior to 9/11?
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 10401
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 5:38 pm: |
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The third building wasn't hit. It just went bloop! down. I'm no expert and don't want to be, but that was odd. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1941
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 9, 2006 - 6:10 pm: |
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Notehead: Don't suppose you can link to sources for any of your, uh, allegations?
Maybe just the first few dozen? |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3696
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 10:26 am: |
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Sure, cmonty. This stuff is all over the place, and of course the pages on this subject run the gamut from first-person expert investigations and experiences to hearsay and outright guessing. This page covers a lot of the material I posted yesterday. I also recommend www.911truth.org. |
MBJ
Citizen
Username: Mbj
Post Number: 228
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 11:14 am: |
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If that website's not enough, I can send you some links that "prove" Elvis is still alive and the moon landings were faked.
Just let me know. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3699
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 11:26 am: |
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Great, I'd like to see those. I wonder how many of them were created by witnesses, high-ranking military officials, and people with doctorates and national roles in relevant fields. Do you have any like that, MBJ? |
MBJ
Citizen
Username: Mbj
Post Number: 229
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 11:33 am: |
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Lots of them Notehead. There's just as many crackpot "witnesses" for those theories as there are for 9/11. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1946
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 12:36 pm: |
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It's really too bad "the media" didn't have access to all high-ranking military officials, witnesses, and people with doctorate degrees so that they could have used those people in their own fully sourced reports.
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notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3700
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 3:28 pm: |
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MBJ - you're wrong. Public interest in the 9/11 issue is on an entirely different scale than that sort of nonsense.
Cmonty - They do, of course. And there are interviews and articles galore -- such as the C-SPAN specials mentioned previously in this thread and a host of others. But they never gain traction because so many people simply reject the notion of government complicity out of hand, they are terrified of such a possibility. Some of the experts fall squarely into this category themselves. And one might also consider who owns/controls the networks. Do you consider yourself a critical thinker, and are you willing to apply critical thinking to this? |
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