| Author | Message | ||
     Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12328 Registered: 5-2001 |
As is usually the case, the truth rests somewhere between the two extremes of what Factvsfiction posted and the "puff" piece Dave posted. Personally, I rather suspect that Hezbollah influence in Lebanon will expand, especially if they manage to get control of the 16 square miles or so of strategically worthless land known as the farms. This will allow them to claim victory. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave  Post Number: 10336 Registered: 4-1997  |
Writers locked up by Arafat do not write puff pieces. http://hrw.org/english/docs/1997/05/23/isrlpa8825.htm | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2351 Registered: 5-2001 |
Phenix - you ask why "Israel is bombing Christian Villages" and then insert two articles that clearly state that Israel bombedbridges that connect supply routes from Syria, which run through Christian area north of Beirut Don't you think there's a big difference? Unfortunately, while disrupting supply routes for Katyushas and Khaibers, the route for deperately needed relief supplies is also disrupted. | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2352 Registered: 5-2001 |
In the meantime a lot of Iranian money and investment has gone up in Israeli F-16 and Merkava tank smoke, and what the Iranians thought was a prime reason why no millitary action would be taken against their nuke sites, the ability of Hezbollah to rain down missles on Israel, is being neutralized. FVF -Thank you for pointing out the elimination of the nuclear site defense Iran thought they had; I hadn't really thought of that angle. } | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2353 Registered: 5-2001 |
My in-laws in Karmiel finally gave in yesterday and evacuated to friends in central Israel. Their kids and grandkids moved out two weeks ago, but they were hanging tight, til a bomb landed close enough to their apartment to shatter the windows. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 691 Registered: 2-2003 |
Interesting difference in two reports on this morning's Hezbollah rocket attack on kibbutz Kfar Giladi in northern Israel. The first report (Haaretz) says 10 people were killed, the second report (Reuters) says the victims were all soldiers. Presumably Haaretz will update its story this afternoon. As I write, CNN is reporting because of the "sensitive nature of the story," it's not allowed to report whether the victims are soldiers (12:10 pm) http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746936.html http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L0690806.htm
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| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2355 Registered: 5-2001 |
I don't understand your point. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 692 Registered: 2-2003 |
Debby, The point is that there's a huge discrepancy in two reports of the biggest news story of the day. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12329 Registered: 5-2001 |
Debby, first I am glad that your relatives are OK. I think the point is that hitting soliders is, regretably, a military target. It is interesting that Israel has put a blackout on this, or at least attempted to do so. Losing 20 soliders killed and wounded isn't a strategic disaster, it is a personal disaster for them and their families. Is censorship needed? So far, at least as far as has been released the two rocket attacks that have caused the most deaths were on military targets, a railroad facility and a military staging point. I don't want to get into moral equivalents, but what is the different between targeting military facilities and hitting civilians by accident and using unguided rockets in the hopes of hitting a military target? Dave, Mr. Kuttab is, from looking over your link, a respected journalist. However, his article is the complete Arab line, minus eliminating Israel. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10338 Registered: 4-1997 |
Israeli media seems loathe to point out Hizzbullah targets are Israeli military. This could create a lack of trust in Haaretz among Israeli citizens. I think that may be Paul's point. (Looks like Paul beat me to it) | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1321 Registered: 4-2006 |
As usual the truth is that Bob K's fair-reaching and cogent analysis of the Middle Eastern situation is premised upon broad knowledge and grand suppostion gained from residency in SOMA and West Orange. And the daily papers and internet. However do expect Bob to be heavily sought out for analysis by CNN in the event SOMA and West Orange go to war.  Just joking Bob K, but I do kinda have some knowledge about these particular things that you want to discount. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1322 Registered: 4-2006 |
Dave- You can't "target" katyushkas. Point and shoot. Nasrallah is guilty of war crimes in deliberatly targeting civilian population centers. He has also killed Israeli arabs, whose towns were also hit. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 693 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dave, If the Reuters report is accurate, I think Haaretz will come out with a revised story. I think Haaretz is generally a very reliable source that tends to be quite frank about Israeli casualties. It also hosts a number of antiwar columnists. It seems that in this case -- if Reuters is accurate -- Haaretz is waiting for the official IDF version of what happened. There may also be some self-censorship involved, since reporting that the kibbutz had been turned into a military facility would be helpful information for Hezbollah. But this is kind of irrelevant since the whole world is aware of this. One more point, if the Reuters report is accurate and the people killed were soldiers, it cannot be said that the soldiers were Hezbollah "targets" since Hezbollah has little or no control of who will be the victims of its rockets. A relatively high percentage of the Hezbollah rocket victims are Israeli Arabs. The Kfar Giladi victims may be the first Israeli military victims of Hezbollah rockets. As Human Rights Watch has said, Hezbollah's rocket attacks are indiscriminate and are therefore war crimes. | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2357 Registered: 5-2001 |
Dave - I think your assumption about Israeli media desires and manipulations are unfounded. Haaretz and YNet and Jerusalem Post and Maariv report constantly about military casualties. The fact is, out of (I believe) 3000 rockets lobbed into Israel in the last days, ONE has hit a target of military significance (a group of reservists standing on a kibbutz). The train depot that Bob refers to is not a military target. It's a train depot. The other 2900+ have hit apartment buildings, hospitals and empty fields (Oh yeah, and my in-laws' courtyard). Ironically, the greatest number of civilian deaths and injuries have been suffered by Israeli Arab and Druze villages. | ||
| Gordon Agress Citizen Username: Odd Post Number: 490 Registered: 8-2004 |
What do you propose should be done about that? | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2358 Registered: 5-2001 |
From www.ynetnews.com Reuters admits Altering Photo Reuters withdraws photograph of Beirut after Air Force attack after US blogs, photographers point out 'blatant evidence of manipulation.' Reuters' head of PR says in response, 'Reuters has suspended photographer until investigations are completed into changes made to photograph.' Photographer who sent altered image is same Reuters photographer behind many of images from Qana, which have also been subject of suspicions for being staged A Reuters photograph of smoke rising from buildings in Beirut has been withdrawn after coming under attack by American web logs. The blogs accused Reuters of distorting the photograph to include more smoke and damage. The photograph showed two very heavy plumes of black smoke billowing from buildings in Beirut after an Air Force attack on the Lebanese capital. Reuters has since withdrawn the photograph from its website, along a message admitting that the image was distorted, and an apology to editors. Reuters withdraws doctored image In the message, Reuters said that "photo editing software was improperly used on this image. A corrected version will immediately follow this advisory. We are sorry for any inconvience." Reuters' head of PR Moira Whittle said in response: "Reuters has suspended a photographer until investigations are completed into changes made to a photograph showing smoke billowing from buildings following an air strike on Beirut. Reuters takes such matters extremely seriously as it is strictly against company editorial policy to alter pictures." "As soon as the allegation came to light, the photograph, filed on Saturday 5 August, was removed from the file and a replacement, showing the same scene, was sent. The explanation for the removal was the improper use of photo-editing software," she added. Earlier, Charles Johnson, of the Little Green Footballs blog , which has exposed a previous attempt at fraud by a major American news corporation, wrote : "This Reuters photograph shows blatant evidence of manipulation. Notice the repeating patterns in the smoke; this is almost certainly caused by using the Photoshop “clone” tool to add more smoke to the image." Johnson added: "Smoke simply does not contain repeating symmetrical patterns like this, and you can see the repetition in both plumes of smoke. There’s really no question about it." Speaking to Ynetnews, Johnson said: "This has to cast doubt not only on the photographer who did the alterations, but on Reuters' entire review process. If they could let such an obvious fake get through to publication, how many more faked or 'enhanced' photos have not been caught?" A series of close ups are then posted on the blog, showing that "it’s not only the plumes of smoke that were 'enhanced.' There are also cloned buildings." The close ups do appear to show exact replicas of buildings appearing next to one another in the photograph. The Sports Shooter web forum , used by professional photographers, also examined the photo, with many users concluding that the image has been doctored. 'Looks so obviously doctored' "I'll second the cloned smoke...but it looks so obvious that I don't know how the photographer could have gotten away with it," wrote one user. After further research, Johnson posted a photograph he says is the original image taken before distortions were made, showing much lighter smoke rising. Other blogs have also analyzed the photographs, and reached similar conclusions, such as Left & Right , which states: "The photo has been doctored, quite badly." The author of the Ace of Spades blog wrote: "Even I can see the very suspicious "clonings" of picture elements here. And I'm an idiot." The Hot Air blog also looked at the photo, describing the image as "the worst Photoshop I have ever seen." Adnan Hajj, the photographer who sent the altered image, was also the Reuters photographer behind many of the images from Qana – which have also been the subject of suspicions for being staged. "A photographer who would blatantly falsify an entire 'news' image would certainly not be above posing and staging photographs of rescue workers," Johnson concluded. | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2359 Registered: 5-2001 |
Paul - Here is Haaretz' latest: Three killed, dozens hurt in Haifa rocket attacks; 12 IDF reservists killed in Kfar Giladi strikes By Amiram Barkat, Amos Harel and Jack Khoury, Haaretz Correspondents and Haaretz Service Three people were killed and some 40 others were wounded in Haifa on Sunday evening in what was described as the heaviest rocket strike on Israel's third city since the attacks began on July 12. The strikes came several hours after 12 Israel Defense Forces reservist soldiers were killed and 12 others were wounded, four of them seriously, in a direct hit on an open area in the northern community of Kfar Giladi, as Hezbollah renewed its rocket fire against Israel with an enormous barrage. In Haifa, five people were pulled from the rubble after a building collapsed in a strike on a residential neighborhood. One of those rescued was seriously hurt and the rest sustained moderate injuries. A police commander told Israel Radio that a rocket slammed into two adjacent houses, causing them to partially collapse. The head of the Magen David Adom rescue service said that there were people wounded in at least three locations in Haifa. A spokesman for the Haifa fire department, Chezi Levi, said one crowded residential district suffered five or six hits, and that there were many casualties. Earlier Sunday evening, a rocket landed in Haifa, and seven more fell in open fields in its outlying suburbs. There were no reports of injuries in any of the incidents. Another rocket landed in the Jezreel Valley. Sirens also sounded in Binyamina and Hadera. Hezbollah continued shelling the Kfar Giladi area for a prolonged period after the deadly attack, but no additional casualties were reported. A resident of Kfar Giladi who is on the community's security committee said that the victims did not adhere to warnings sounded ahead of the attack. "This shouldn't have happened," he said. "We sounded the alert several minutes before the rocket hits." "It was a direct hit on a crowd of people," Northern District Police Chief Major General Dan Ronen told Army Radio. A nearby forest burst into flames from the barrage and huge plumes of gray smoke rose into the air. Witnesses described the barrage of rockets as "enormous" and that it lasted more than fifteen minutes. "I was sitting with my friends in a parking lot and got up to get a cigarette," an eye-witness told Haaretz, "I heard a big boom and came back running to see the bodies of my friends." In a later barrage, a Kiryat Shmona home sustained a direct hit, Channel 10 reported. There was no immediate report of casualties. Rockets that landed in the Beit Hillel community in the Upper Galilee left one person lightly wounded. In earlier attacks Sunday, three Katyusha rockets landed in an open area near Ma'alot, two in Safed, two in open areas near Acre and one landed in the Golan Heights. No casualties were reported in these attacks. Mother, two daughters killed in Saturday attacks On Saturday, a woman and her two daughters were killed when their home suffered a direct hit in a Katyusha rocket strike on the Bedouin village of Arab al-Aramshe, in the Western Galilee near the northern border. The fatalities were identified as Fadiya Juma'a, 60, and her daughters Sultana, 31, and Samira, 33. They will be laid to rest at their village's cemetery at 4.00 P.M. Hezbollah fired 170 Katyusha rockets across northern Israel on Saturday afternoon, 130 of which landed between 4 P.M. and 5 P.M. An Israel Defense Forces soldier sustained serious wounds when a rocket hit an army base near the northern border. Some 40 rockets landed in Kiryat Shmona, one of which hit a factory. Some 17 rockets landed around Safed, four hit in the vicinity of Carmiel, 15 landed near Nahariya, 14 hit the Golan Heights, 19 landed in Ma'alot, four landed in Acre and one landed in Rosh Pina. The village of Maghar, Tiberias, Ma'alot, Shlomi, and Rosh Hanikra were also hit in Saturday's barrage. Some of the rockets hit homes and damaged infrastructure. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 694 Registered: 2-2003 |
Gordon, For starters, I think Israel should respond to Nasrullah's offer to stop the rockets if Israel stops the bombing by saying -- OK, you stop the rockets and we'll stop the bombing. Regarding Hezbollah's accountability for war crimes, probably the most effective venue would be a UN Tribunal for War Crimes, similar to the one created for Yugoslavia. However, this could pose problems for Israel, since the UN Commissioner for Human Rights, Louise Arbour, who headed the Yugoslav tribunal, has warned that Israel's indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Lebanon may also constitute war crimes [ http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/07/un-rights-commissioner-warns-of-wa r.php ] | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 695 Registered: 2-2003 |
Debby, Right. Haaretz has revised its headline but has not yet revised its story. Apparently the Reuters report was accurate. | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2360 Registered: 5-2001 |
The strikes came several hours after 12 Israel Defense Forces reservist soldiers were killed and 12 others were wounded, four of them seriously, in a direct hit on an open area in the northern community of Kfar Giladi, as Hezbollah renewed its rocket fire against Israel with an enormous barrage. They have updated the story, too. I think your theory, about withholding military specifics initially in order to minimize intelligence for Hizbollah, is likely correct. BTW, according to the latest (I forget if Jerusalem Post or YNet) a 13th soldier recently died of his wounds. | ||
| Ender Citizen Username: Enderw Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2006 |
enemies of Israel - Hizbollah, France, Reuters... The whole Qana scene was also manufactured and nobody in the world press said anything about it. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12331 Registered: 5-2001 |
FvF, I got really interested in this subject after the second time I almost got killed in a terrorist attack. I sorta took it personal, which is silly I admit. Where do you get you expertise? CIA? Mossad? Or did you just take a trip to Israel? | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 1394 Registered: 2-2004 |
Is this thread still going? I guess the peaceniks haven't had much sway in the argument. I guess right about now you guys are beginning to realize that election results matter a whole lot more than wasteful verbage. And yes, I love this. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1324 Registered: 4-2006 |
Bob K- Academically, personally, and linguistically, way more extensive than a "trip to Israel", although that is cute retort. Don't push the envelope with me on this, otherwise I will have you spending hours on google trying to respond to me deconstructing your posts. Gordon- Nasrallah and the leadership of Hezbollah are thereby morally appropriate to be targeted for assassination. Certainly they will never be tried for war crimes in our current international system. | ||
| Ender Citizen Username: Enderw Post Number: 85 Registered: 4-2006 |
Reuters employee issues 'Zionist pig' death threat Worker suspended after telling American blogger: 'I look forward to day when you pigs get your throats cut' A Reuters employee has been suspended after sending a death threat to an American blogger. The message, sent from a Reuters internet account, read: "I look forward to the day when you pigs get your throats cut." It was sent to Charles Johnson, owner of the Little Green Footballs (LGF) weblog, a popular site which often backs Israel and highlights jihadist terrorist activities. In the threat, the Reuters staff member, who has not been named, left his email address as "zionistpig" at hotmail.com. Reporting the message to his readers, Johnson wrote on his website: "This particular death threat is a bit different from the run of the mill hate mail we get around here, because an IP lookup on the sender reveals that he/she/it was using an account at none other than Reuters News." Speaking to Ynetnews, Johnson said: "I was surprised to receive a threat from a Reuters IP, but only because it was so careless of this person to use a traceable work account to do it." He added: "I think it's more than fair to say that Reuters has a big problem." 'Employee suspended' After bringing the threat to the attention of Reuters, Johnson was told by the news organization's Global Head of Communications, Ed Williams: "I can confirm that an employee has been suspended pending further investigation. The individual was not an employee of Reuters' news division." In an additional twist, Johnson traced the movements of the sender of the threat, and found direct parallels between the internet locations of the sender and Inayat Bunglawala, Media Secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain. Bunglawala, who contirbuted an editorial to the Guardian website, has attracted negative attention in the past after making anti-Semitic outbursts, and has declared that the British media was "Zionist-controlled." In the comment section of the Guardian, underneath his own editorial, Bunglawala denied sending the threat, blaming "Zionists" instead. "That was not me! Methinks some Zionists are up to mischief," he wrote. "There is strong circumstantial evidence connecting Bunglawala to the threat, but there is no way for me to verify this for certain. Only a Reuters network administrator would have access to the necessary records," Johnson said. | ||
| kathleen Citizen Username: Symbolic Post Number: 637 Registered: 3-2005 |
The Economist has another really great editorial this week, explaining the Israeli government's calculations and arguing that Olmert's strategy is not in the best interests of the United States (and may not be in the best interests of Israelis, either.) If I can post quotes I will, but in the meantime I thought some of you might want to track down the editorial for the analysis, while a few MOLers will surely want to get a head start in cooking up a case that The Economist is an anti-Semitic publication. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4631 Registered: 12-2001  |
I used to like The Economist. But now, I see they have joined the global Muslim conspiracy. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1835 Registered: 9-2004  |
The "Why" question is proof, IMHO, that the reality on the ground is the majority of people killed in Lebanon where the bombs are falling, and the Hezbollah terrorists are, are one in the same... TERRORISTS!!! ajc, NO… the majority were innocent civilians. A large majority included women and children. Doubt a baby could pick-up an AKA or launch one of those rocket launchers. And label ALL Lebanonese terrorists? For shame. The more people that think like and join up with the Hezbollah and Hamas groups, only means we need to make more bullets and bombs until, if necessary, we "WIPE THEM OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH!" which is just what they plan to do to us.... With those thoughts I guess we could NEVER count on YOU to achieve peace. | ||
| Debby Citizen Username: Debby Post Number: 2363 Registered: 5-2001 |
Kathleen - I'm not sure if the dig is at me, or ender, or someone else... An editorial about strategy and diplomacy is valid journalism; doctored photographs are not. People expressing their concern about widespread publication (by one of the world's largest and most repected news agencies)of such doctored photographs is not conspiracy theory, either. | ||
| Gordon Agress Citizen Username: Odd Post Number: 491 Registered: 8-2004 |
Thank you, Paul. So you think that Israel should respond to war crimes by ceasing its own efforts to cease those crimes, submitting to an institution of demonstrated futility, which has already prejudged the case with terms like "indiscriminate" without any serious collection or gathering of evidence. Bear in mind that if the UN had any capacity for managing Hezbollah, it would have done so after Israel withdrew from Lebanon in the first place. I hope your readers will bear this preference for appeasement, and muddiness of moral judgment, in mind as they consider your points. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 843 Registered: 1-2006 |
Propaganda, provenhttp://drinkingfromhome.blogspot.com/2006/08/extreme-makeover-beirut-edition.htm l: | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5372 Registered: 9-2001  |
"With those thoughts I guess we could NEVER count on YOU to achieve peace." Don't be so sure about that.... Phenixrising, tell me how you would deal with someone who attacked your country, kills your people, and tells you and the rest of the world that they plan to "Wipe your nation off the face of the earth." ??? Also tell me if you can their justification for all the years of killing innocent civilians and bombing US and Israel interests throughout the world... ??? Listen, we didn't start this fighting and killing, but we damn well better finish it! | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 844 Registered: 1-2006 |
From the Las Vegas Review Journal, insightful take on a more than 20 day war, and how disproportionate was the U.S. response to the attack on Pearl Harbor. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 845 Registered: 1-2006 |
From the Las Vegas Review Journal, insightful take on a more than 20 day war, and how disproportionate was the U.S. response to the attack on Pearl Harbor. VIN SUPRYNOWICZ: Just once, let them fight till someone loses War is horrible. It kills and maims and orphans the innocent along with the combatants, who themselves are not always there willingly. It is to be avoided whenever possible. (For instance, Lincoln had no right to invade the South, which in no way threatened the North -- especially given that he'd promised the Southerners they could keep their slaves if they stayed in the union, proving that emancipation was not one of his casi belli. Also, this nation had no right to invade Iraq, which had done us no harm.) Advertisement Click here for W Las Vegas! But there are two major exceptions. Rather than live as slaves, rather than watch our loved ones picked off one at a time while we stand by and do nothing, it is better to risk our lives -- and to kill as many of the enemy as humanly possible, by whatever means -- until such danger is decisively eliminated. It is better to respond to aggression by going to war. Not "going to social work." War, as in, "If everything around you is exploding, that's probably us." But when? When did World War II begin? Most would point to the German invasion of Poland in the fall of 1939. But is that to say the fascist conquest of North Africa -- where the Italians invented the modern "concentration camp" -- and the brutal conquest of Manchuria and Korea and parts of mainland China by the Japanese, both dating back into the early 1930s, were "A-OK"? What about the German annexation of Austria and proudly independent Czechoslovakia? It's typical for those who crave peace to try compromise and appeasement. These rarely work, merely emboldening the aggressor. What works are tanks and really big artillery pieces and stubble-faced G.I.s doing the thankless job of winning the war 50 yards at a time. But America didn't do that in 1936, or even in 1939. America, craving peace, waited till our fleet lay in smoking ruins at Pearl Harbor. Not that the rape of China had gone unnoticed. The Roosevelt administration embargoed oil shipments to Japan. The Japanese didn't want to conquer America; they wanted to seize the oil-rich islands of the South Pacific. But they knew Roosevelt would come to the aid of the Dutch and British there if they tried. So, declaring the oil embargo an act of war (as though we had some obligation to sell our oil to anyone), figuring they had to "use their fleet or lose it," they struck first, at a time and place unexpected. When did the current war in Lebanon begin? When Israel attacked? But Israel was responding to the murder and kidnapping of its own soldiers in its own territory, as well as to the endless and intentional Hezbollah missile barrage against its civilian populace. Did it begin when Hezbollah snuck across the border, killing three Israeli soldiers and kidnapping two more, three weeks ago? But that would be to say that the failure of the Lebanese government to disarm Hezbollah and stop these wild-eyed fanatics from committing such acts of war -- demanded under Security Council Resolution 1559, and part of the deal under which Israel withdrew completely from southern Lebanon years ago -- was "A-OK." Imagine now that America, finally stirred from her lethargy, had fought through that miserable year of 1942, American boys desperately throwing away their lives at places like Wake and Midway as they took on a superior foe while equipped only with inadequate pre-war weapons and supplies. Now, in 1943, the tables are finally starting to turn. We have finally driven the Japanese from Guadalcanal. Our factories having run at full pace for a year, we now have enough materiel to start slogging our way up the island chains toward Japan ... when some vastly superior coalition of nations steps in and says, "Your response has been disproportionate. They only sank a handful of your ships and killed a few hundred sailors at Pearl Harbor. Look at the pictures of the suffering your bombs and torpedoes are causing. This is barbaric." Imagine that a three-year cease-fire had been imposed, during which Imperial Japan had time to rest, refit and re-arm. Then, in 1946, when Japan was ready, they attacked us again, unexpectedly, sinking more of our ships in Australia and in San Diego. Back to war we go. But no, on the evening of our planned 1948 landings at Okinawa, again we're told "Time out. This is awfully disproportionate. Your B-29 bombings of the civilian populace in Japan are probably war crimes; you'll have to stand trial at The Hague. Have you seen the photos of the burned and bleeding children? The whole world condemns your barbarism. We need a three-year timeout." And so on, over, and over, and over. If war is evil, how much more evil is it to impose on anyone an endless stop-and-start war, which the righteous and aggrieved victim is never allowed to pursue to a victorious end -- the aggressor always allowed to rest and refit and then to come again at a time of his choosing, pecking relentlessly at the victim's liver? Some will say Israel has committed aggression simply by existing. But to say that is to violate the U.N. charter, which guarantees the right of all member states to exist. "But the Palestinians have no state!" the war-lovers cry. Sure they do. It's called Jordan. In fact, the Palestinian Arabs got by far the larger part of the old British protectorate of Palestine -- and no one attacked them for daring to set up an essentially one-religion nation where Jews find scant welcome. The masses now huddled around the borders of Israel were kicked out by King Hussein in 1972 after they tried to overthrow him. How is that Israel's fault? The defeatists cry that "Nothing can be accomplished by violence; war only breeds more terrorists who will fight forever." Really? Sixty years later, is America still under attack by the aggrieved suicide-belted grandchildren of the Germans and Japanese whose cities we flattened and burned to rubble in '44 and '45? No. Because wars usually do resolve these issues -- if one side is allowed to fight to a decisive victory. It's just that the pink petticoat gang shriek hysterically and threaten to faint dead away when confronted with the reality of how real wars really end. Someone raises a white flag, and promises to fight no more if only you'll give the survivors some food and water and stop burning them out of their holes. Many of the conquered women marry the conqueror's soldiers and move home with them, giving up their native dress and learning to drive Buicks. In Lebanon, Hezbollah is nowhere near ready to surrender. To end a war which has now been dragging on for 58 years, somebody's ••• has got to, finally, be whupped. Who is that more likely to be? Do you hear anyone calling on the Hezbollah guerrillas to show more "restraint" as they overrun large portions of Israel? Not now, you say? When better? After Iran has started supplying Hezbollah with nukes? Today, Hezbollah and Hamas have a problem. All their planning was based on the fact that the world and the United States have never allowed Israel to really win a war -- they always call a cease-fire after a maximum of 20 days. Can anyone see the terrorists looking around now, wondering when they get their next three years off for rest, refit and resupply? "Hey, it's been the full three weeks. Guys? Anyone? Hello?" We started out saying war is horrible and is to be avoided whenever possible. But there is a corollary doctrine. If you want a generation of peace, those who launch wars have to be shown this, good and hard. Vin Suprynowicz is assistant editorial page editor of the Review-Journal and author of the new novel "The Black Arrow," which has made the short list of nominees for the 2006 Prometheus Award. See www.LibertyBookShop.us. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 696 Registered: 2-2003 |
Gordon, Please re-read my post. It has two parts. The first part is a proposal on how the Israeli Government could stop the Hezbollah rockets from falling on its citizens. The second part deals with war crimes. I suggested that the same approach that was used to prosecute war crimes in Yugoslavia be followed in the case of Hezbollah war crimes. What I also pointed out is that Israel is unlikely to follow this approach because it is vulnerable to accusations of indiscriminate bombing, something that was suggested by Louise Arbour, as well as Human Rights Watch, in its report last week. Regarding your theories of "appeasement, and muddiness of moral judgment," I'm happy to compare my position with yours in terms of what is humane and morally sound as well as what is in the best interests of Israeli security. In that regard, please let us know what your recommendations are to (a) stop the Hezbollah rockets (b) hold Hezbollah accountable for war crimes and (c) address the current rise in Hezbollah influence and power in Lebanon and the Middle East that is resulting from the IDF bombing campaign of Lebanon. I'm sure your ideas will beare very interesting and I look forward to the discussion. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 846 Registered: 1-2006 |
From danielpipes.org [but first, answering Paul, 1: kill them; 2: yes, and 3: kill them. now, for something completely different: Adam Ciralsky, Lisa Myers and the NBC News Investigative Unit not only provided an important news story in "Hezbollah banks under attack in Lebanon: Israel seeks to destroy group's financial infrastructure," but they went beyond collecting information to make a real difference in the war on terror. The news is that the Israeli aerial bombing of Hizbullah targets has not been just military but also financial: "among the targets hit in Lebanon are as many as a dozen financial institutions — part of a previously secret campaign to destroy Hezbollah's financial infrastructure. Some banks were demolished, others deliberately damaged but not destroyed. In one case, Israel also took out a bank manager's home." The targets have included eight offices of Hizbullah's treasury, Beit el Mal, plus branches of two major banks — Al Baraka and Fransabank. The Middle East and Africa Bank (MEAB) is also on Israel's target list. The Israelis believe the attacks caught Hezbollah by surprise and that Hizbullah is "very desperate" for cash, says Brig. Gen. Dani Arditi, advisor to the Israeli Prime Minister for Counterterrorism. All three banks predictably denied ties to Hizbullah. * Al Baraka: "We have no relation to any organization like Hezbollah." * Fransabank: "We have no relationship with Hezbollah or any other political party anywhere. We don't have any relation and we refuse to have one." * The Middle East and Africa Bank: someone tried to open a suspicious account with the bank, but no money was accepted and the bank employee involved was fired. In a conventional news report, the story would have ended here, but the NBC News Investigative Unit dug deeper. Noting that Hizbullah's television station, Al-Manar, broadcast a fundraising appeal last week asking that money be sent to a specific account at MEAB, an Arabic-speaking NBC News producer called the number at MEAB mentioned in the television ad. He was told to go to any U.S. bank and wire the money but not to indicate that the money is for Hizbullah. MEAB has a commercial relationship with Wachovia, a major American bank. NBC News informed Wachovia of MEAB's role in fundraising for Hizbullah and Wachovia immediately terminated the relationship. That done, the NBC News producer called back the same MEAB number mentioned on Al-Manar. This time, he was given the name of another bank, Banque Libano-Française. Here's how the conversation went: NBC: I want to donate money to the Mujahideens [Hezbollah resistance], is this the right number? Hezbollah Facilitator: You have to send to The Lebanese-French Bank. NBC: Do you have the number? Hezbollah Facilitator: There is an account number. You deposit the money and wire it to the Lebanese French Bank. NBC: How can I know that this is accurate? I'm so worried to deposit the money, can you tell me and confirm that this money will be sent to the Mujahideen? Hezbollah Facilitator: Yes, sure. NBC: And where are you from? Are you from the bank or no? Hezbollah Facilitator: No. I'm from the resistance. NBC: How would we know? I'm so worried when I deposit the money it will reach Mujahideen. Hezbollah Facilitator: You go to the bank and deposit the money, and they will wire it to the Lebanese French Bank. You have to go the bank. Where are you calling from? NBC: I am from America. Hezbollah Facilitator: You have to go to the bank — any bank. NBC: That for sure will reach the Mujahideen? Hezbollah Facilitator: For sure. Do not mention resistance or anything like that. If you do, they won't wire them. NBC: Thank you - God be with you. Bye bye. Hezbollah Facilitator: You are welcome. God be with you. Maurice Iskandar, head of the Corporate Banking Division of the Lebanese-French Bank, informed NBC News on July 18 that the bank had closed the Hizbullah account. "Following the information in your e-mail, our Compliance Unit has closed the said account." NBC News then went to the Lebanese-French Bank's American partners, Citibank and the Bank of New York, and informed them of the situation. Both banks said they took the appropriate steps. Comment: Bravo to NBC News for its intrepid and constructive work. But where is the vaunted financial counterterrorism effort of the U.S. government? If NBC can do all this from public sources, one has to wonder how effective law enforcement's can be. (July 25, 2006) | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 847 Registered: 1-2006 |
More on propaganda, this time withdrawn by the Leb Pres. from Confederateyankee: Houla Oops Read about the "horrific massacre" at Houla, Lebanon while you still can: Lebanon's prime minister said Monday an Israeli airstrike on the southern village of Houla left 40 people dead. "An hour ago, there was a horrific massacre in the village of Houla in which more than 40 martyrs were victims of deliberate bombing," Fouad Siniora told Arab foreign ministers in Beirut. A Lebanese law enforcement source told CNN an estimated 60 people were trapped in the rubble of homes in the Houla area. Six homes were destroyed, and fires engulfed the area, the source said. The Israel Defense Forces said it is checking the reports on Houla, noting that it has warned residents for the past two weeks to leave. Siniora choked back tears, wiping his eyes as he spoke, The Associated Press reported. The ministers applauded. The deaths Prime Minster Siniora claims as the result of an Israeli air strike haven't materialized to any great extent in the rest of the world's press, an odd circumstance for such a large loss of civilian life. As of now, the only other online mention I can find of the story is from the AP's Sam Ghattis, and no photos or first-hand reporting seems yet available from the scene. As of now, we have only Siniora's word that these deaths took place. Looking around the various news sites, it seems that few news organizations are willing to give Siniora’s word the benefit of the doubt, indicating perhaps that news organizations snake-bitten by the still unresolved questions about Qana and the quite thoroughly resolved frauds of Reuters photographer Adnan Hajj, are not willing to give the terrorist-friendly Prime Minister the instant credibility they might have eight days ago. The trust of the people that the media needs to survive has been severely damaged in their often one-sided and occasionally staged and faked coverage of the war in Lebanon and Israel. The western media has been finally forced into looking at the reliability of their foreign reporters, photographers, and even the public pronouncements of government officials, and they do not seem to like what they see. A propaganda war is only effective if people are willing to swallow the information they are given, and at this point, it seems even the media is gagging on the taqiyya that seems to flow so freely in Lebanon's fog of war. It is of course possible that once reporters reach the scene in Houla that the stories will once again begin to flow lamenting the loss of innocent Lebanese because of indiscriminate Israeli bombing, but that moment has not yet come, and even the tearful display from Lebanon’s Prime Minister seems not enough to sway a skeptical press. Hezbollah and their allies still retain the support of Iran and Syria, but seem to be losing, temporarily at least, the support of their nominally reliable propaganda allies in the western media, and that might be the most important division of this war so far. Update: Siniora has retracted his claim. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1803 Registered: 10-2004  |
Exactly. All the administrations lines about stopping money for terrorism has led no where. All the 'surveillance' of terrorists has not closed these accounts. There can only be 2 conclusions to this 1) the FBI, CIA, NSA and all the rest of our intelligence and policing agencies are dumb, stupid, clueless and mismanaged or 2) our government has not told us the truth, has not allocated the resources to track down these accounts and has no interest in doing so as long as they can keep the Iraq war alive. and as for jd's answers to Paul
Its why there will never be peace in our lifetimes. | ||
| Gordon Agress Citizen Username: Odd Post Number: 492 Registered: 8-2004 |
Paul, I haven't offered an opinion here. I've critized blanket condemnations of Israeli conduct as naive, poorly informed, and prejudiced by some prior ideological commitment. I don't claim to know the right course for Israel, or the US -- it's a very complicated problem. But I do claim that one-sided criticism and biased reporting aren't going to help, either. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1837 Registered: 9-2004 |
Arab League won't condemn Hezbollah kidnappings, chief says BEIRUT (CNN) -- The Arab League's top figure said Sunday the group would not condemn Hezbollah's kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers that sparked the Mideast crisis. "Why should we? Why?" Arab League Secretary-General Amr Moussa asked in an interview with CNN. "We condemn the destruction of Lebanon." Several Arab League members did criticize Hezbollah after the July 12 kidnappings that launched more than three weeks of fighting, but Moussa said Israel's actions in Lebanon have changed views throughout the Arab world. "This destruction is killing people in this region and agitating them," he said, adding that Arabs -- from "the street" to heads of state "and the educated class" -- "are all angry. They are all agitated." ajc, I’m sure (the above) is NOT what Israel had in mind with the rest of the Arab World. Since the destruction of Lebanon, the tides have change. What is a shame is that not ALL Arabs agree with Hezbollah and its actions, however the recent loss of innocent civilian lives have change their thinking. Through violence, no one wins. Not the Israelis nor Hezbollah. What should be done? Perhaps talks with Syria & Iran for starters, since they are the ones orchestrating behind the scenes. Yesterday on CNN, they interviewed Roula Talj, a Lebanese political analyst, and former government adviser. Here is the exchange: BLITZER: But what a lot of people are trying to understand, Roula, is who started this. Because, as you know, on July 12th, Hezbollah came into northern Israel unprovoked, kidnapped two Israeli soldiers, killed eight others. And as a result, the Israelis began their moves against Hezbollah. Do you accept that Hezbollah started this current war? TALJ: Wolf, I don't think it's any more about the soldiers, about the kidnapping of the soldiers. But I do believe that there was a build-up which started in 1948. But I'm not going to go back to that point. But I want to tell you and tell the American people a very short story. And I want you to judge who is behind all this mess in the middle east. In 2004, September 2004, a common friend of yours and mine, Wolf, and I won't say his name now, came to Lebanon and Damascus. And he is a very close friend to Israel, believe me. Nobody more than this guy love Israel's interest. He came to see whether there is a possibility for a certain peace talk in the future. And, you know, when -- a week later, President Bush made a presidential statement forbidding any peace talks to go between Israel, Lebanon and Syria. So I will let you not and the smart people in Washington and the United States to judge who is behind this mess in the Middle East today. ************************************************* Hmmm…my guess she may be referring to Colin Powell. What a shame that these 3 countries could not have a “sit-down” and negotiated. Lay EVERYTHING out on the table. However, good ol boy GWB forbid these three countries to do so. |
