| Author | Message | ||
     tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4608 Registered: 12-2001  |
Well FvF, as you are able to find "nuance" in the foreign policy of George Bush, then I am sure you would have no difficulty in concluding that because I see no value in demonizing Islam that I must also think Al Qaeda is benign. As a bonus, however, I was able to construct a factually accurate statement that uses the terms "nuance", "subtle" and "the foreign policy of the Bush Administration" in one sentence. Compared to the foreign policy of the Bush Administration, the U.S. assault on Iwo Jima was both nuanced and subtle. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 814 Registered: 1-2006 |
No need to demonize any religion. Sudan’s Department of Gang Rape Thursday 24 November 2005 23:03. Printer-Friendly version Send this article to a friend Destinator : (enter destinator's e-mail address) From (enter your name) (enter your e-mail) By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF, The New York Times Nov 22, 2005, Kalma Camp, Sudan — When the Arab men in military uniforms caught Noura Moussa and raped her the other day, they took the trouble to explain themselves. "We cannot let black people live in this land," she remembers them telling her, and they used racial epithets against blacks, called her a slave, and added: "We can kill any members of African tribes." Ms. Noura is one of thousands of women and girls to be gang-raped in Darfur, as part of what appears to be a deliberate Sudanese government policy to break the spirit of several African tribes through mass rape. This policy is shrewd as well as brutal, for the exceptional stigma of rape here often silences victims even as it terrorizes the entire population and forces people to flee. Ms. Noura, 22, expected to be married soon, and the neighbors said she probably would have received a bride price of 30 cows. These days, they say, she will be lucky to find any husband at all - and will not get a single cow. This is the first genocide of the 21st century, and we are collectively letting the Sudanese government get away with it. Sudan’s leaders appear to have made a calculated decision that some African tribes in the Darfur region are more of a headache than the international protests that result when it depopulates large areas of those tribes. In effect, it is our acquiescence that allows the rapes and murders to continue. The solution isn’t to send American troops. But a starting point is to convey American outrage - loudly and insistently - and demonstrate that Darfur is an American priority. Ms. Noura’s saga began when the Sudanese Army and janjaweed militia burned down her village a year ago and killed her father. She and her family fled here to Kalma, but she is the eldest child and needed money to support her younger brothers and sisters. So she ventured out of Kalma to cut grass in the nearby fields to sell. That was when the men raped and beat her, leaving her unable to walk home. Rape leads to particular injuries in Darfur because many girls, as part of female circumcision rites, have their vaginas sewn shut with a wild thorn. The resulting physical trauma from rape also increases the risk of H.I.V. transmission. In addition, the attackers sometimes rape women with sticks or bayonets, causing internal injuries that leave the victims incontinent. Sudan has backed off a bit in response to protests about the rapes, and it has stopped arresting women who go to foreign aid workers to seek medical treatment. But the rapes themselves are continuing, unabated. The Sudanese police and military are everywhere in the area, but they don’t secure the fields outside the camp where the attacks take place. In just one of eight sectors in Kalma, I found three women who acknowledged on the record that they had been gang-raped this month within a few days of each other. Arifa Muhammad, 25, told of being caught by 10 men as she planted okra to have a little more food for her three children. One of the men said, "I know you are Zaghawa, so we will rape you." Afterward, they beat her with the butts of their guns. The very next day, Saida Abdukarim, also 25, was tending her vegetables when three men with guns seized her. She pleaded with them, pointing out that she is eight months’ pregnant. "They said, ’You are black, and so we can rape you,’ " she recalled. Then they gang-raped her and beat her with sticks and their guns. She absorbed the beating, trying to protect her unborn baby, and although she was too battered to walk, she has so far not miscarried. To me, Ms. Noura, Ms. Arifa and Ms. Saida are among the heroes of Darfur. There is no shame in being raped, but plenty of stigma should attach to those who ignore crimes against humanity. In my book, it’s the politicians who don’t consider genocide a priority who aren’t worth a single cow. These three women have the backbone to stand up and be counted. We in the West have so much less to lose, yet we can’t even find our own voices. Let’s hope that the courage of these three women may inspire President Bush, Kofi Annan and other world leaders finally to show a little more backbone and stand much more firmly against genocide. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1291 Registered: 4-2006 |
Joel, When their granddaughters will be wearing Burkhas these guys will still be complaining about Bush. Wrong priorities. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 817 Registered: 1-2006 |
From Canada, now, via Jihadwatch.org (or com, I don't remember), today. This website a must read, daily, for the facts, those things which get in the way of peace in our time: Canadian moderate Muslim leader quits, fearing for his life Many, many times over the years I have pointed out that voices of moderation or reform within Islamic communities are at a distinct disadvantage because the Qur'an and Sunnah are against them: in the old standby phrase, there are moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. Also, because of the Islamic mandates that apostates, blasphemers, and heretics must be killed -- mandates which are also rooted in the Qur'an and the teachings of Muhammad -- these reformers are often threatened and sometimes actually killed by Muslims who believe they have strayed from the Noble Path. Here is another example of this: Tarek Fatah has challenged traditional Islamic teaching on homosexuality and other matters, and now he has received death threats credible enough in content and numerous enough to bring him to resign his position. It is bitterly ironic that Western non-Muslim observers who know little or nothing of Islam assume that voices of liberalism and reform like Fatah are the dominant mainstream within Islamic communities in the West and elsewhere, and excoriate people like me for "ignoring" them. The reality, however, is that people like Fatah are, despite their popularity among Westerners who like to pride themselves on their "tolerance," only marginally influential among Muslims, and are, above all, hunted men. "Fearing for safety, Muslim official quits," from the Globe and Mail, with thanks to Mentat: Tarek Fatah, the outspoken, controversial communications director of the Muslim Canadian Congress, has resigned, citing concerns for his safety and that of his family. Mr. Fatah said he will also resign from the MCC's board, severing all official ties with the organization he helped found. "It's not just for me. It's for my wife and my daughters," he said in an interview. "Part of it is also to get out of the limelight." Mr. Fatah's socially liberal views have always been controversial within the Muslim community, and in the past month he has been the subject of an e-mail campaign aimed at the Canadian news media.... Along with his resignation, Mr. Fatah has filed a report with Toronto Police detailing what he says are a number of threats he has received since 2003. A police investigation is under way.... Mr. Fatah has always carried a high profile, both with the Muslim Canadian Congress -- known for its liberal interpretations of Islam, including its support of homosexuality -- and as the host of Muslim Chronicle, a CTS TV current-affairs show that focuses on the Muslim community. But in recent months, he said, he has been coming under increasing fire. There was the e-mail campaign and he is more worried than ever about threats after the arrests of 17 terrorism suspects in Toronto in early June. Mr. Fatah's unpopularity among conservative segments of the Muslim community is not surprising. He is a strong advocate of gay rights for Muslims and the inclusion of secular voices in the Muslim community. He publicly and vehemently opposed the adoption of sharia law in Canada. Recently, many Muslims were angered by his very vocal campaign against British imam Sheik Riyadh ul Haq, who ultimately was refused a visa to attend a conference in Toronto. Mr. Haq's address was transmitted live by satellite instead. Many Muslims have also accused Mr. Fatah of hogging the media spotlight. He is frequently a subject of animated discussions on blogs and Internet chat forums, and early last month, a student group based in Montreal began bombarding five news outlets -- The Globe and Mail, the Toronto Star, The Toronto Sun, CBC and CTV -- with e-mails insisting that he does not represent the Muslim community and should not be recognized as a legitimate voice. Mr. Fatah was quick to respond to accusations about his views. "My position is that same-sex marriage is a human right and whether someone believes it is valid from a religious perspective is not the question. Most Muslims do not believe homosexuality is permitted but that is not the question," he said. Mr. Fatah has fiercely advocated for a separation of church and state, although he said he has no issue with sharia arbitration as long as it is not part of the state legal system.... On June 30, Mr. Fatah was identified by the Canadian Islamic Congress as one of four people who are anti-Islam in an article in the CIC's weekly Friday Magazine, which is sent to e-mail subscribers. The article, "Smearing Islam and Bashing Muslims, Who and Why," was penned by Mohamed Elmasry, the CIC's director and an adjunct professor in the department of electrical and computer engineering at the University of Waterloo. The list, which also included Globe and Mail columnist Margaret Wente, was led by Mr. Fatah, whom Dr. Elmasry wrote "is well known in Canada for smearing Islam and bashing Muslims." Dr. Elmasry levelled similar accusations against the Muslim Canadian Congress last October. Mr. Fatah said he is concerned because he understands the implication of statements such as "anti-Islam" and "smearing Islam." He said they are akin to fatwas, pronouncing blasphemy, a crime that under sharia law is punishable by death. "Anyone can issue a fatwa," Mr. Fatah said. " And anyone can issue a counter-fatwa. There is no clergy that oversees the process. This is a complete hijacking of the system, and everyone is complicit." Wahida Valiante, vice-chair and national vice-president of the Canadian Islamic Congress, said there are "different versions and different ideologies" when asked whether the assertion amounted to a fatwa. "We're not into fatwas," she said. "We are not a religious body. We are looking into issues. If someone is misrepresenting facts, we simply address that." Mrs. Valiante said she had not read the article and could not refer to it directly. But she said that through her intimate exposure to the Muslim community, she felt confident that many people believe Mr. Fatah is smearing and misrepresenting Islam. "Tarek Fatah's views are diametrically opposed to most Muslims. There is a tremendous amount of discussion in the community. His point of view contradicts the fundamentals of Islam," she said, refusing to elaborate on what she meant. "The nature of the work we do implicitly entails that there will be people who don't like what we do," said El-Farouk Khaki, secretary-general of the Muslim Canadian Congress. The articulated hostility is par for the course for those who feel threatened by them, he said. Mr. Khaki warned that police have to be sensitive to the reality that people who challenge established views so overtly are often in danger of being attacked. Mr. Fatah has been attacked both physically and verbally, he said -- at an Islamic conference at the former SkyDome in 2003, dozens of young Muslim men mobbed him while a cleric shouted out that he had insulted the Prophet Mohammed's name. In 2006, he said, was accosted on Yonge Street by a man who accused him of being an apostate. His car windows were smashed. He also wrote a letter to the RCMP about the article sent by e-mail by the Canadian Islamic Congress. "This is as close as one can gets to issuing a death threat, as it places me as an apostate and blasphemer," he wrote. Mr. Fatah says it is this concern for his safety that has pushed him to hand in his resignation. He said he is planning to write a book. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 818 Registered: 1-2006 |
Self-demonizing: BRUSSELS (EJP)—- The Brussels Jewish Memorial for Holocaust victims has been vandalized, in an attack described as “devastating” by the head of a Belgian Jewish association. Judith Kronfeld, secretary general of the “Union of deportees in Belgium-Sons and Daughters of deportation” organisation, spoke of a “scene of devastation” which was discovered Monday night. The gate of the Memorial’s crypt was pulled out, documents were destroyed, windows broken and an urn containing ashes from the Auschwitz-Birkenau Nazi death camp was desecrated and emptied. “Anti-Semitic vandals, moved by a destructive rage, left behind a scene of devastation,” Kronfeld said. Condoms and excrements were also found on the floor of the Memorial which is located in Anderlecht, a Brussels district with an important Arab population. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider  Post Number: 15199 Registered: 1-2003  |
Joel, when you cite these atrocities -- and I agree that they are atrocities -- please try to address these questions: 1. Are these atrocities inherently Muslim-types of atrocities? In other words, is there something particularly Muslim about them, whereby Islam itself lends itself to this behavior? 2. Are other cultures or religions devoid of equivalent atrocities because of their inherent nature? From my own perspective, the answer to question 1 is sometimes yes. However, the answer to question 2 is categorically no. I'm eager to hear your perspective. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 821 Registered: 1-2006 |
1. Yes, inherently, because this old religion, per its Koran, Hadiths, Shura, and the mass killings by Mohammad and his tribes, urges killing, enslaving, tithing, if they don't convert. [That is a sword in the Islamic flag, in case you didn't notice.] 1. continued, Other cultures gave up this stuff as official policy decades to centuries ago, and this religion hasn't. You may find revenge, for revenge is part of human nature, to be controlled by better men and women. But, for types of atrocities, well, the facts are available, daily, on thereligionofpeace, and jihadwatch.org websites, which open doors to other factual sites. 2. Look at what this religion, not culture, is rich in. Conquest, savage, slaughter and conquest. Sunni v. Shia, both against everyone else when they are not killing each other. 4.Sayid Qtub, came to the US in 1949, is the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and provides the basis for modern Islam's desire to destroy us. His writings, translated, are within The Legacy of Jihad, by Andrew Bostum, 2005. So is the frightening legacy throught the past fourteen hundred years. PS there are Muslims who don't subscribe to the Sixth Century tenets of Mohammad, and they might be the future. | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 2920 Registered: 6-2002 |
Fvf says: When their granddaughters will be wearing Burkhas these guys will still be complaining about Bush. And when our granddughters are wearing chastity belts will you still be extolling Bush? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 837 Registered: 1-2006 |
Cute, but no traction. On the point of the thread: Priest guards church against ‘racist’ attacks By Caroline Innes UNDER ATTACK: St Joseph's RC Church, Audley # UNDER ATTACK: St Joseph's RC Church, Audley A PRIEST is set to install high fences around his church in Blackburn in a bid to combat racist attacks. The move was revealed as a Muslim leader blasted the gang of youths which targeted St Joseph's RC Church, in Audley, Blackburn. Coun Salim Mulla, secretary of the Lancashire Council of Mosques, said the gang were "disgraceful and disrespectful" and he was so angry that when he found out who was responsible he would personally report them to the police. The latest incident happened on Sunday at 11pm and although the church's alarm system prevented the youths from gaining access to the church, significant damage was done to the church door. continued... Father Francis Parkinson, the Roman Catholic priest at St Joseph's, was also targeted in February when he was racially abused by a gang of youths who had been loitering in the church car park. A 19-year-old later admitted racially aggravated threatening behaviour against the priest and was given a conditional discharge for 12 months and ordered to pay £50 costs. Father Francis said the church and its car park have been plagued with gangs of juveniles making a nuisance of themselves. He said he was looking to install high fences around the church and car park to keep youths out and protect the church from vandalism. He added: "I would simply like to know why these young men feel they have got to do this as I personally don't understand it. "This is just another example of wanton vandalism that is upsetting community cohesion. "These youths have shown no respect for the church as a place of worship. How would they feel if a gang of vandals attempted to break into their mosque? "I was racially abused by youths hanging around the church car park a few months back and now we have had an attempted break-in. "The bolt on the door has been broken. Repairs cost money. I have spoken to Coun Mulla about this situation and he is most upset that this keeps happening and has said he will do what he can to find those responsible." Coun Mulla said he couldn't believe the church had been targeted again and called for the Muslim community to condemn the youths' actions. He said: "The Muslim community works very closely with the Christian community and it is important we understand and respect everybody else's beliefs. "I expect all youths to be law abiding and not cause harm to people's places of worship. Sadly some youths behave disgracefully and these youths in particular have disgraced their community by what they have done to St Joseph's." "I want to send a strong message to the community that this sort of racist and anti-social behaviour is not acceptable." Insp Jenny Coulston, of Blackburn police, said she believed the incident was part of an ongoing problem of juvenile nuisance in the Audley area. 7:00pm Wednesday 2nd August 2006point, but just another day in the life of planet earth: | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 838 Registered: 1-2006 |
"Fight and slay the Unbelievers wherever ye find them. Seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war." Qur'an, Sura 9:5 | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15208 Registered: 1-2003 |
Shall we cite Leviticus and the atrocities committed by Christians and Jews? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 839 Registered: 1-2006 |
As I wrote: some religions get religion, and give it up. One, with tens to hundreds of millions buying into it, believes all religions before it are false, still lives in the 7th century, and will slay us, you and me, and our children, when they have the opportunity. Be peaceful, be about peace, and be dead. jd | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15209 Registered: 1-2003 |
You sound like you live in a lot of fear. That would explain your anger at and distrust of those different than you. You seem to be implying that the western world has outgrown violence and ethnic discrimination. I would have to disagree. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 840 Registered: 1-2006 |
That is why I walk to Manhattan every day, and home school my children. My weapons are well oiled, safeties off, (except for the Sig Sauer), and powder dry. The West is well along the road to self destruction, through moral equivalency, failure to see right from wrong, and addiction to oil. Most US citizens get it right, even some in blue states. As to where the danger lies today, the proof is in the pudding. jd | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1790 Registered: 10-2004  |
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| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15214 Registered: 1-2003 |
 Joel, I believe your kid and my kid are friends, so I'm sorry if I offended you. We should take it easy. And I appreciate your last response. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1308 Registered: 4-2006 |
anon- I enjoy your posts, but I think you conceptualize the problem of radical islam wrongly. It can't be solved by electing a liberal democrat that has progressive views. Tom Reingold- I always respect that you seek out the best in people Tom,and appreciate your familiarity with the mosque and islam. Like you, I have spent time with muslims and grown to know their culture, religion, personal lives, and values, personally and academically. As you stated, both christianity and judaism have developed from religions which accepted violence in advancing the faith to something more. However islam as yet has not. This point must be contested with both muslim friends and foe. We are doing a major disservice to a muslim world with millions of young people in not helping their reform and their full participation in the 21st century. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5696 Registered: 10-1999  |
That's an unsupported generalization. As with any other belief, whether religious or secular, it depends on who you ask. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15215 Registered: 1-2003 |
It would be great if we could offer help in a proper way, and it would also be great if they wanted to accept our help. I think neither is happening. I'm convinced you can't spread peace and prosperity through the barrel of a gun. And once we know the strengths and weaknesses of a culture, we still owe it to individuals to treat them as if they are worthy of respect, until they prove otherwise. Joel, if a Muslim applied to work for you, what would you do? | ||
| Lord Pabulum Citizen Username: Lord_pabulum Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2006  |
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people." - Karl Marx Perhaps if Religion weren't an 'opiate' people would wake up and smell the roses rather than the 'poppies' or crap handed to them by so called 'leaders'. Besides, 'my God is better than your God' is not gonna get anyone anywhere. | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2655 Registered: 3-2003 |
The Weekly Standard: Scenes from an Israeli Deli | ||
| Lord Pabulum Citizen Username: Lord_pabulum Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2006 |
JC Bad guys, indeed | ||
| J. Crohn Supporter Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 2665 Registered: 3-2003 |
FvF: "[B]oth christianity and judaism have developed from religions which accepted violence in advancing the faith to something more. However islam as yet has not. Nohero: "That's an unsupported generalization. As with any other belief, whether religious or secular, it depends on who you ask." Nohero, please supply one modern example of a Christian or Jewish institution which seeks to advance its faith through violence. | ||
| kathleen Citizen Username: Symbolic Post Number: 630 Registered: 3-2005 |
Fvf was the one who said "christianity and judaism have developed from religions which accepted violence in advancing the faith." The demand for proof of the unsupported assertion should be asked of him. Nohero said: "It depends on whom you ask." And it does. Plenty of people, no doubt many of the prejudiced, could give plenty of examples where Jews and Christians are currently using violence to advance their dogmatic beliefs, and Nohero might not see it that way. Plenty of prejudiced people in this thread are trying to paint of Islam as inherently intorlerant, when history proves beyond the shadow of a doubt it is not. As Nohero (sort of) pointed out, to single out officially "religious" ideologies as the source of violence is more than silly with all these dead bodies laying around because of people's inhumane and obsessive dogmas. Not every violence-prone, blinkered, expansionist dogma is a religious dogma, as George Bush and Crew are demonstrating every day. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1327 Registered: 4-2006 |
J.Crohn- What's wrong with you? Expecting thought that works in a logical and progressive manner on MOL ?  | ||
| kathleen Citizen Username: Symbolic Post Number: 631 Registered: 3-2005 |
Translation: Fvf can't answer the question. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15218 Registered: 1-2003 |
jcrohn, not many Christians or Jews use violence to further their faith, though skinheads are probably an example. What about American faith in freedomanddemocracy, Bush's religion? Whatever. I think it's important to note that while our form of violence doesn't use our so-called faith as a justification, we are a violent people anyway. I can't say our faith is any better or worse based on our level of violence. I'm glad we don't generally use our faith as a justification for our violence. Really. I think it's one way in which our culture is better than theirs. But I'd like to see us aim to reduce violence with the lofty goal of eliminating it one day. We're not doing so well on that front. Is that because of, or in spite of, our faith? I don't know. I'm not convinced it's important. OK, even that's not true. (Can you tell I'm thinking as I type?) I have faith in metaphysical forces, in God, in a collective consciousness, etc., and I believe if we reunite in faith like that, we can learn to become less violent and aim to eliminate violence. But will it work if we don't all agree to do the same? I do my part. Or at least, I hope I do. I'm sure you do, too. I just don't think we'll get very far if we try to figure out which culture is superior to which other culture. We all have our faults, as individuals and as peoples. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1329 Registered: 4-2006 |
kathleen- Was 9-11, the London subway bombings, and terrorist acts throughout the world done in the name of islam? Was the greater purpose of these acts to defeat the un-believer, have them convert to islam, and seek the sharia to be imposed and followed? In short, it's the muslim theology, stupid, to put it in Clintonian terms. When you actually see christians and jews engaging in terrorist attacks premised on their christian or jewish teachings, let me know. BTW, what is the singular group and religion most involved with terrorism in the world today? I know, must be the buddhists. It's amazing that you can spend so much time on the internet finding marginal and biased anti-Israel commentators to post here on MOL but you can't seem to find the time to read numerous internet sources, many academic, that discuss the real problems inherent in islamic teachings and beliefs in an open, nuanced, and warts and all way. Frankly, your posts on this subject IMHO reflects the emotionalism of your radical left perspective and your anti-Bush politics, rather than substance and a real discussion of the real problems radical islam poses to our country's security and our childrens' future. | ||
| kathleen Citizen Username: Symbolic Post Number: 640 Registered: 3-2005 |
Have you read Osama bin Laden's words after 9/11? Can you cite me the portions where he says he wants to make America an Islamic theocracy? Have you read he words of the one of the London bombers, Mohammed Sidique Khan, from a videotape he made explaining his motives for the subway attacks? "Your democratically elected governments continuously perpetuate atrocities against my people all over the world. And your support of them makes you directly responsible, just as I am directly responsible for protecting and avenging my Muslim brothers and sisters. Until we feel security, you will be our targets. And until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people we will not stop this fight." Do you see any mention of converting you or Tony Blair to Islam? Even before the London bombings, a British government report warned: "Events in Iraq are continuing to act as motivation and a focus of a range of terrorist related activity in the UK." You've gone off the deep end with Ann Coulter if you think Muslims are trying to convert you. And -- may I call you stupid? -- I've quoted on MOL from The Economist, Ha'aretz and the Los Angeles Times. A biased, anti-Israel set of sources? Just how far gone are you? | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1332 Registered: 4-2006 |
kathleen- You obviously haven't read the translations of Al Queda's "mission statement" so to speak, nor investigated Al Queda's official writings, and the organization's religious and philosophical underpinings. Maybe if you took some time out from looking on the internet for anti-Israel articles to post here.... Instead you rely on one deliberately targeted statement made by OBL utlizing the 9-11 attack designed to get Americans to get their government out of the Middle East, lest we get more of the same. It's called terrorist p.r. dear. And at least in your case, it seems to be effective. I've got news for you, intellectuals and religious theorists in the muslim world also see the need for reformation in islam. You don't seem interested in addressing their concerns, or having a non-emoting intelligent conversation about the problems in islam that are causing us problems. Finally, the fact that a magazine or newspaper publishes an article by an individual writer does not make the contents of the article, or writer, god. Facts can be spun and figures and ideas presented that reflect the particular writer's subjective viewpoint. Many in the British news media are Pro-Palestinian, and Ha'aretz is considered a newspaper of the Israeli further left. Ha'aretz, btw supports the war against Hezbollah. You can call me stupid if you wish, but I can also characterize your posts so far as being simplistic in knowledge and lacking in good reasoning and thought. Have a lovely day! | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1794 Registered: 10-2004 |
For arguments sake lets make the grand assumption that Islam is inherently evil. The creators of this religion perhaps were looking for world domination and a way to keep their subjects in line. Of the billions of people who call themselves muslim today what percentage are practitioners of this evil brand of Islam and what percentage practice a religion that is benign? How can the "evil muslims" be identified and how can they be educated, converted or eliminated? ============================================== The above ridiculous premise is what is being seriously discussed, with the most common idea being that murder of these people is just. The only way to eliminate this type of evil is to have open communications, to have open exchanges of ideas, to trade honestly and to help those who cannot help themselves to live better, healthier, more productive lives. Changes in how Islam is perceived by the practitioners of the religion will change as the relevance of the writings in the Koran become less and less appropriate to how they live their lives. Changes of these types take lifetimes and we will probably not live to see it and certainly not given our actions. There has been plenty of death in the name of religion where religion had nothing to do with it. There has also been plenty of death in the name of religion where religion was the primary cause. Common sense says that there has to be a solution that does not include violence. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 841 Registered: 1-2006 |
Islamic Reformation, still awaited. jd | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1335 Registered: 4-2006 |
Hoops- We already have had an open society that has been accessible through media, culture, literature, travel, and education to muslims from the arab countries for more than several decades. They don't seem to be deserting "the relevance of the writings of the Koran" as you seem to suggest such access would achieve. If anything they are humiliated by the "have not" status that such exposure shows them, and turn to radical islam as the solution. Their societies must become economically viable, which goes hand in hand with reformation. Express words in the Koran, suras, and hadiths, provide the basis for present global terrorism. The violent connotations and interpretation of islam must be removed and changed. We don't see the Pope for example,creating another Crusades, based on christian text as was done many, many centuries ago. Muslim intellectuals and theologians who support this must be heavily funded to get their message out by the west. It has to happen in some form or another as islamic countries fall further behind in the 21st century. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1800 Registered: 10-2004 |
I dont disagree. The issue I have with you is method. You seem to 'want it now'. The only way these things are going to change is from within. Force is not going to get a person to change what they have been taught and what they believe. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15219 Registered: 1-2003 |
Joel wrote: Islamic Reformation, still awaited. Joel, if a Muslim leader spoke of reformation and reconciliation, or even just moderation, would you believe him/her? Or do you believe that this is impossible? Would you need a vast majority of Muslims to sound just like you in order for you to believe that they are not hopelessly distrustworthy? Hmm, many do sound like you already, offering dismissive statements based entirely on ethnicity or religion. | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 334 Registered: 1-2006 |
The practical, common-sense solution is to restrict the entry of Muslims qua Muslims into America, with the exception of short-term business visas. All they have is oil and they will sell it to us. They have very little else of value. Muslims who are already here should be encouraged to return to their native countries and enjoy the comforts and privileges of Sharia. Any that remain should be monitored closely. They can always leave if they feel uncomfortable. I would not have a problem with a federal program that paid for one-way tickets. What we should not do is invade or attack Muslim countries or give economic or military assistance to other countries that do so. Let's not kill Muslims, (OK, I'll make an exception for Bin Laden). Let's isolate ourselves from them and let them solve their own problems. Bring the troops home from Iraq, etc. It would be unwise to wait and hope for an Islamic reformation while admitting them to America. The Ayatollah Khomeini said that Islam is politics or it is nothing. I'll take him at his word. If Islam is politics, what kind of politics would it be? I don't want to wait for the emergence of an Islamic voting block to find out. The best way to ensure that a Islamic voting block will not emerge is to restrict immigration from Islamic countries and encourage Muslims who are already here to leave. Naturally, none of this is going to happen, but I just wanted to get it off my chest. Cheers | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10350 Registered: 4-1997  |
Ready for Kristallnacht 2, I see. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 849 Registered: 1-2006 |
Ready for WTC 2, Dave? jd | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15227 Registered: 1-2003 |
Joel, let me amend my first question to you. How do you know if a Muslim is credible? When can you believe a Muslim, and when can't you? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 850 Registered: 1-2006 |
I believe. In "White washing Islamists" in today's Washington Times, Joel Mowbray asks some questions that need to be asked: Hiding behind potted plants, Naveed Haq laid in wait for a 14-year-old girl he could use as a hostage. With a gun in her back, he pushed his way past security and through the door. He coldly, deliberately shot six women. When a wounded Pamela Waechter tried to flee up some stairs, he followed her, leaned over a railing and killed her. Are these the actions of a crazy person? A crazy person might cause harm to himself, maybe even someone close to him. Mr. Haq, though, did not know anyone at the Seattle Jewish Federation. He traveled some distance late last month from central Washington, getting there after determining his target following an Internet search for "something Jewish." That wasn't all of his planning. Because of Washington law, Mr. Haq waited to purchase his two semiautomatic handguns, picking them up one day earlier. Premeditation is the antithesis of crazy. So why is it that the mainstream media has either ignored or played down this story? The New York Times has written only one story. Ditto for The Washington Post. Both papers buried what little coverage they did offer on page 22 and page 13, respectively. Most of those outlets that publicized the shootings have focused on Mr. Haq's history of mental illness, the most serious of which was bipolar disorder. Great attention has been paid to his apparently having acted alone. And some have reported that sometime last year, the accused murderer was a practicing Christian. In other words, media outlets have spent fantastic energy exploring every possibility -- except the obvious one. Moments after spraying bullets across the offices of the Jewish Federation, he announced, "I'm a Muslim-American; I'm angry at Israel." So while Mr. Haq's short-lived apparent conversion to Christianity might be interesting, it neither inspired the murderous rampage nor serves as evidence that something in his Islamic environment did not. Where is the investigation into what messages Mr. Haq heard in his hometown mosque, which was founded by his father? Or how about a look at the culture and attitudes of his hometown Muslim community? Do you? jd |
