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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 10441
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:57 am: | 
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LONDON, England (CNN) -- A British intelligence official has told CNN that the original information about a plot to down commercial jetliners in mid-Atlantic with explosives came from a tip from the Muslim community in Britain.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/11/terror.plot/index.html |
Project 37
Citizen
Username: Project37
Post Number: 225
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:27 am: |
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Thanks for that, Dave. |
ML
Supporter
Username: Ml1
Post Number: 3097
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:39 am: |
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I was in London in June when Scotland Yard swept in and disrupted another terrorist cell who were planning chemical attacks. The tip that put them on to the plotters came from neighbors who, were of course also Muslim. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5460
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:57 am: |
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Good points from a story on Salon
Quote:or organizations launching attacks that were hatched overseas, but from disenchanted Muslim extremists at home. And Muslim communities in the United States are generally more affluent and less dogmatic than those in Britain, which has a Muslim population of nearly 2 million. O'Hanlon described Muslim communities in Britain as "more cut off and more isolated" than in the United States.
"In the United States, the problem is one of dangerous people infiltrating the country, but the domestic problem is quite limited," said Daniel Byman, a terrorism expert and a professor at Georgetown University. "In the U.K. and in Europe in general, there is a large, unsatisfied Muslim population. It is a completely different issue. We think about bad guys overseas. They think about bad guys down the block."
That the threat of terrorism in Britain is potent, imminent and homegrown was illustrated by the citizenship of those arrested in the Heathrow bomb plot. Most of the 24 men accused of plotting to use liquid explosives to blow planes out of the sky were of Pakistani descent, but all of them were British citizens -- as were all four bombers in the July 7, 2005, attacks.
Another writer -- and I can't find the reference even though I just read it yesterday -- points out that second- and third-generation muslims in the US consider themselves Americans, but a second- or third-generation Pakistani in the UK considers himself a Pakistani, while a second- or third- generation Moroccan in France doesn't know what he is at all.
The U.S.'s long history of adaptation and assimilation works as a weapon for us now. The European countries don't have it, and we emulate them at our peril. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4666
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:02 am: |
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Look, a lot of you have expressed concern that Muslims are turning in their fellow Muslims. I want to assure everybody that our Dear Leader Bush in concert with our very own Joel Dranove and FactsVsFiction are working very hard to portary ALL Muslims as extremist. To the extent that they are successful, I don't think we will have this problem of law-abiding Muslims turning in terrorists any more. |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5714
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:06 am: |
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Just to follow up on ML's point. I was in London last summer, after the second, failed attempts to detonate bombs in public transport. That week, the police made public photos from security cameras showing the suspects. As a result, they were quickly identified, by neighbors and even by family members in one case. So, again, working with the community pays off.
The British approach is continuing to work, as the latest arrests seem to show. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5791
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:06 am: |
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tjohn -- support your charge that Bush is trying hard to make all muslims appear extremist. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4668
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:10 am: |
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Saw a blurb yesterday saying that Bush's yammering about Islamo-fascists is rankling Muslims of all stripes.
His unqualified support of Israel has been a disaster for moderate Muslims and Muslims interested in reform. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5792
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:46 am: |
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tjohn -- His delineation between followers of Islam and the wing that promotes fascism does not make all Muslims appear extremist. Those who are rankled, let them rankle away.
Your second statement doesn't apply to your charge Bush is trying to make all Muslims look extremist. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4669
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:50 am: |
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"Those who are rankled, let them rankle away."
In other words, if Bush needlessly offends and alienates, it's no big deal. It's no big deal that our international standing is a its lowest point in our history. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 10447
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:52 am: |
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Maybe Bush is simply ignorant?
Quote:BUSH: Pakistan "will be a steadfast partner…. A force for freedom and moderation in the Arab world." (Televised speech in India, March 3, 2006)
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5794
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:55 am: |
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Our international standing was so high after saving Muslim populations in The Balkans twice and the attempted peace deal with Arafat that we got bombed on 9/11. Ridiculous.
Those who are rankled are a hyper-sensitive minority looking for airtime. They know damn well what Bush meant, and he's been consistent since the first days of the war in Afghanistan that Islam is being hijacked by extremists -- now called 'fascists.' He's gone out of his way on that point. If those getting hacked off pursue it for propaganda purposes, they were never to be counted on in the first place. Their logic is easily dispensed with by any thinking person who's been paying attention. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4670
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:00 pm: |
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Oh, a new twist. A lot of people hate us anyway, so it's no big deal to exacerbate the problem. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 10448
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:00 pm: |
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Quote:Fascism: The name comes from the Latin fasces – a bundle of rods with a projecting axe, which was the symbol of authority in ancient Rome. The term was applied by Mussolini to his movement after his rise to power in 1922. The Fascists were viciously anti-Communist and anti- liberal and, once in power, relied on an authoritarian state apparatus.
By definition, terrorists like al qaida can't be fascists. They are Islamic radicals. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5795
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 12:06 pm: |
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tjohn-- yes, best to institute an immediate campaign of love, toss aside Israel and direct this out of Kucinich's Department of Peace. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4671
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:33 pm: |
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No, better to speak softly and carry a big stick. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 10456
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:28 pm: |
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It's the Republicans who are putting Israel at risk with their careless and inept diplomatic efforts. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5798
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:01 pm: |
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How did Bush create the 2000 intifada then, or was that just an abberation along the road to peace via Clinton? |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3814
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:31 pm: |
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Through unquestioning militarism and a wish to get the "folks" who "tried to kill his Daddy." You may recall, after the hostage crisis of 1979 (or were you born yet?) there were huge cries among the right wing to "nuke Iran." That rage against Iran morphed in American popular culture into a generalized distrust of Arabic cultures and people, witnessed by some occasions of harassment and intimidation, as well as profiling incidents of Arabs and Muslims. Black Muslim culture fanned the flames of right-wing red-neck hatred. Bush tapped into that, turning the redneck culture into rednecks in pinstripes. His western twang gave many of us the clue. Culture wars began with the end of the Shah's regime, and the rise of the Ayatollah. If you had been around, or been aware, you would have noticed it. Signs with the picture of the Ayatollah and "F@@@ Iran" were on redneck bumper stickers everywhere.
...and Dave, thanks for calling a spade a spade.
...and cjc, about the 2000 intifada, it didn't help when Sharon went to the Wailing Wall to support militarism in Israel. The rising militarism continued in Israel, over the past eight years, because Bush obviously made Israel feel comfortable about conducting war. We would obviously back them up with more materiel.
That's how, cjc.
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Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1378
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:57 pm: |
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Dave-
So we need to be happy and congratulatory that someone in the muslim community did the right and required thing? How pc.
And Dave, please tell us your definition of "racist" and who are the "racists on MOL". |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1379
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:01 pm: |
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tjohn-
How so? Please explain how you contend I do so.
I understand. No doubt you are still cross they lost your luggage at Ben Gurion airport in 1979.
BTW, isn't that a personal attack ? Dave? Dave ?  |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3816
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:17 pm: |
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FVF: When you generalize about people based upon a characteristic, when you make assumptions about people based upon the behavior of those of similar physical characteristics, that is not only simplistic, but immoral and not an effective social policy. When you want to "profile" you want to judge and treat people based upon physical or cultural traits and characteristics. That's racism.
Sorry, Dave, couldn't help jumping in. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1381
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:19 pm: |
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tulip-
I await a post that makes sense. Thanks. |
kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 799
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:22 pm: |
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you will be waiting a very long time. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3818
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:30 pm: |
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Try answering my question about the cease-fire.
Can you do it? |
kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 800
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:30 pm: |
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We are at war with terrorist and Bush has led the effort here and in the world. Blair got it immediately and should be congratulated for being in charge of the country that stopped this massacre. Pretend as much as you want, but Bush, more than anyone else in this world deserves credit for placing the emphasis on these neanderthals. The demies and fools on this board continue to look for grey when black and white are so clear. |
Wendy
Supporter
Username: Wendy
Post Number: 2949
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:36 pm: |
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Quote:The rising militarism continued in Israel, over the past eight years
Do you actually believe this? If so, I feel sorry for your ignorance and myopia in this matter. Have you read anything about Israeli history written by at least neutral authors? Anything? |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3820
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:39 pm: |
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My mistake. Israel has always been overwhelmingly militaristic...by necessity of course...
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tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4673
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:43 pm: |
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FvF,
I guess it must be a subtle and nuanced thing. If you post an endless stream of articles highlighting the uncompromising and brutal nature of Islam despite plenty of examples of moderate Muslims, that would be characterized by some as demonizing.
P.S. They did not lose my luggage at Ben Gurion in 1979. Thank you for asking. In fact, I had a most enjoyable two week visit. The people were extraordinarily welcoming. I hope that hasn't changed. |
breal
Citizen
Username: Breal
Post Number: 980
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 7:04 pm: |
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Dave is great to point out that the good man or woman who alerted authorities to this terror plot is Muslim. S/he did the right thing at the risk of his/her own safety. You can't NOT sound the alarm in such a situation, but I still salute that person's bravery.
But I have to talk about "Attention MOL racists." If you're anti-Muslim you're not a racist. You are some other bad thing. Muslim is a race-neutral term. You can be a black Muslim, an Arab Muslim, a non-Arab Muslim from Afghanistan, a white kid from the Bay Area who converted, a hispanic convert, blah, blah, blah. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3826
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 7:18 pm: |
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breal; Right. One is not racist, one is ethnocentric. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1389
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 7:20 pm: |
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tjohn-
Nice to see you have left your field general duties over on the war thread to come to the thread here. Nice to hear the "colonizers" didn't lose your luggage. Maybe you can get some sort of residency there, since you liked it so much, when the Lenna Lenapi indians reclaim your "home" here in NJ?
I think your are confusing me with another poster there, Tjohn, about an " endless stream of articles".Your " plenty of examples of moderate muslims" comment seems a bit missing in terms of same here, and the issue is the scriptures and theology of islam suppoting jihad. As someone who has studied arab society and culture, I respect it. But I also see it's flaws and dangers. And what happens to this country matters more to me to be a bit blunt.
Like Johnny Cash who has " been everywhere, man" I have known and been friendly with Palestinians, Egyptians, Jordanians, Saudis, Iranians, Bahais, Druze, Kurds, and Maronite Christians in my time. And you, like the good ship Minnow and Gilligan, seem to have had a limited run tour.
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3827
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 7:27 pm: |
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Oh yeah, well, I took a graduate course in Iranian Religion and other courses in Middle Eastern Culture at Columbia University, worked with Edward Said and for his buddy, Michel Riffaterre, chairman of the French Department at Columbia, and placed Middle Eastern college students in American homes for the Foreign Student Service Council while living at International Student House in Washington DC. Match that.
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anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2946
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 8:18 pm: |
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The problem with posting on this thread is that you might be labeled as being in either tulip's camp or fvf's camp! A scary thought. But I'm a brave guy.
I don't like GWB much, but he certainly has not portrayed all Muslims as extremists. Some of his best friends are Muslims. He has commited his administration to supporting the Iraqi Muslims in creating a government and nation. That is why I do not understand a Bush supporter posting:
So we need to be happy and congratulatory that someone in the muslim community did the right and required thing? How pc. Is Bush's support of the Iraqis "pc"?
As for tulip, where does one start? The Iranians captured and held hostage American diplomats. If rage at the Iranians, which in my view was justified "morphed" into a generalized distrust of Arabic cultures it was because people are too stupid to know the difference between Arabs and Persians!
Culture wars began with the end of the Shah's regime "Culture wars" relate to issues like abortion and gay rights. Did the Shah favor those? And do you know what the Wailing Wall is? One goes there to pray, not to "support militarism".
Getting back to the other camp, fvf, given your general view of Islam why do you America's expenditure of "blood and treasure" to help establish a Muslim government in Iraq? |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2947
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 8:22 pm: |
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The problem with thinking out a post and editing it is that in the meantime other posts intervene. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3830
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 8:38 pm: |
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"Culture wars" is a generic term, anon, and gay rights or any other issue has no dominion over it.
Excuse me if I rub you the wrong way. I fear the feeling's mutual.
I also fear that news from Israel often is confusing, witness the moment that it was announced that Olmert was issuing a statement that he would endorse the cease-fire, meanwhile tanks were seen to be moving toward the border of Lebanon. A country that confounds war with peace, may also confound prayer with militarism, but you would never concede to that. The "Battle of Jericho" continues, why, in the very Bible, itself....no?
What is religion about in Judaism, war? peace? Do tell!!!
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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1442
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 8:40 pm: |
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Dear American Friend,
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Currently, my clients have put in an undisclosed escrow account the sum of
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My clients have authorized me, Barrister Tunde Kasume, to arrange this wire transfer. Please help this family in their time of need. Without your assistance, this god fearing Christian Nigerian family could be slaughtered at the hand of the corrupt Nigerian government.
Please respond immediately and you will be blessed with gratitude and rewarded handsomely. I await your response. If you do not respond I, Barrister Tunde Kasume, will have to find another partner in this transaction and reward them with what could be yours, USD$232,000,000.00. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3831
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 8:43 pm: |
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...and your point is? |
S.L.K. 2.0
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1864
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:11 pm: |
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tulip declares all things "neo-con/republican" bad and she is giving us self-righteous posts about profiling?
gag...
-SLK |
S.L.K. 2.0
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1865
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:15 pm: |
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In the past 6 years 99% of terrorist attacks have been done, or attempted by, by arab muslims and I am a racist for taking this key point into consideration?
Dave, stick to moderating MOL, at least you are remotely good at that.
-SLK |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1390
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:17 pm: |
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Edward Said says it all, for those in the know. So basically Tulip with a graduate course (!) is a pro-Palestinian leftist. Which is okay, but gives you an inkling of what weight you may wish or not to give her postings.
anon-
First, mistake to try and portray me as a slavish Bush supporter. I do feel that despite their flaws the Bush administration has a better take on reality in this conflict than the dems. I have not voted for a republican presidential candidate before Bush's 2nd run.
Secondly, there is something wrong if you believe any law-abiding citizen of a country should keep their trap shut about possible terrorism because someone of their own religion or ethnic group is planning it, or it is a big deal and something special if they do properly notify the authorities in their own country of their concerns or knowledge. Certainly the 4,000 innocents that would have been murdered by this heinous scheme deserve some basic human decency from their fellow citizens even if they would not all be muslims.
On Iraq, the radical islamists we face don't share our cultural, moral, or societal values, or the high value we place on human life. In short we are no longer in a Cold War with the Russians, who brought rationality and a similiar societal balance to the conflict, one that we won. An announced withdrawal or a simple cut and run will reinforce their sense we can be defeated, and we have no will or backbone, and prompt more agressive attacks.
It is a bad assumption to make that we can still somehow win, or create the impression upon our enemies that we will do what it takes to win, the war on terror otherwise. They think in the long term historically and in terms of this conflict. The Crusaders are still a valid and timely analogy to them.
Tha calculus on the cost/benefit on Iraq depends upon whether your focus is in thinking about our long term national interests, or feelings, like about the loss of life and political beliefs. I have written in other threads what my take, albeit cyncial, is on the reasons for Iraq. We live in a truly Hobbsean world that currently presents severe danger to our future and that of our kids.
Our leadership needs to be able to make hard, unpleasant, and perhaps very unpopular decisions that necessitate setting their human emotions aside and involve the loss of young americans' lives. I certainly don't envy Bush or whoever replaces him in 2008.
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anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2951
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:33 pm: |
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After reading tulip's post of 8:38 Pm I'm tempted to start a thread "Demonizing Judaism".
Fvf: If your are not a slavish Bush supporter I apologize for any implication that you are. You seem to always be defending GWB, but that may just your reaction to the overwhelmimg opposition to everything GWB on MOL.
However, you say that you never voted for a GOP candidate for Pres prior to Bush's second run. I know people who always voted for the GOP candidate until Bush's second run. I think you said on another thread that your vote was based on the single issue of the War in Iraq. That may also be true of the folks I mentioned who went the other way. Frankly, I don't understand voting based on one issue (which is probably why I would have voted for Lieberman). Long after the country has forgotten about Iraq, Justices Roberts and Alito will be deciding what the Constitution means. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1392
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:41 pm: |
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anon-
I did not see the need to invade Iraq per se. My vote was premised on fighting terrorism, after comparing Bush and Kerry. To be even more cynical, both our political parties today are matters of vested interests and a permanent representative group of incumbents. Tweedly-dee and tweedly-dum. |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2955
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:53 pm: |
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Fair enough Fvf, but I don't see any evidence that Kerry would have been any worse at fighting terrorism than Bush. Lieberman had to pull Bush into creating the Department of Homeland Security. |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2956
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:55 pm: |
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Who knows who Kerry would have put in charge of Homeland Security, Maybe it would have been Lieberman. I'll never understand why Bush didn't give the job to Giuliani |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5467
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:07 pm: |
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Actually one of the few things Bush did that I agree with was resisting creating DHS. We already have a Defense Department. If DHS is defending the Homeland, what is DOD defending? Or should they go back to their original name, Department of War? |
SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 2073
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:39 pm: |
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Please refrain from including the great American Johnny Cash [or any of his song lyrics] in any of your ridiculous arguments... |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4675
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:09 pm: |
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FvF,
I don't think we can leave Iraq now and I also don't think we can stay. And that, is the definition of a bad situation. I am not part of the cut and run crowd but I haven't much hope for a decent outcome in Iraq. If this was a business, you would simply say that we don't throw good money after bad and be done with it. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3844
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 6:43 am: |
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tjohn: With all respect: I am sure that most of us share with the families of men and women who have served, been wounded, or have died in Iraq in being somewhat concerned that your analogy to "good money after bad" might be an unfortunate oversimplification. |
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