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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3828
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 7:41 pm: | 
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Tell me:
Does Judaism allow Israeli soldiers to shoot and kill people on Shabbas, tomorrow, but not make peace at the UN?
rhetorical question...I admit!!! |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1950
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 7:58 pm: |
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You can pretty much do all the killing you want as long as [name of your God] is on your side.
(Well, as long as it's not a fetus. The Big Guy/Gal/Golden Calf has to draw the line somewhere!)
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Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1394
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:54 pm: |
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Deplorable thread, judaism sanctioned murder stuff.
Warrants a ban. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3838
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:58 pm: |
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You are insulting me. I ASKED, can Judaism support killing people on Shabbas, but not working on a peace plan?
It's a fair question. Your interpretation, however, is quite deplorable. |
K_soze
Citizen
Username: K_soze
Post Number: 668
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:03 pm: |
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POW!! 10 points for tulip |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1396
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:27 pm: |
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Attempted Israeli " killers" thread tying in Judaism.
Rejected.
And still deplorable. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3840
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:29 pm: |
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Well, I can't help how you read it, FVF. But, in keeping with this "thread," don't you think calling Islam a religion that promotes violence equally appalling? |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 873
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 12:04 pm: |
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Tulip, you are an anti-semite, no matter what your gene pool.
Can Judaism "support killing people" on [any day] is quite a mind freeze.
Seventy Century Islam, what drives Iran, the hesbos, hamas, Janjaweed, Muslim Brotherhood, the Brit bomber boys, etc., advocates killing non-believers every day of the week.
Well, that is my last ever response to the wilted flower that is tulip; I must puke.
me, jd
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Maprules
Citizen
Username: Maplefan
Post Number: 52
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 12:09 pm: |
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You tipped your hat by saying it was rhetorical question. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1399
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 2:29 pm: |
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Again, VASTLY appropriate for a ban. |
Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 2370
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 6:24 pm: |
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The UN Security Council meeting and vote to institute a ceasefire in Israel-Lebanon ran well into the beginning of the Jewish sabbath, and Israel was a visible participant.
So what's the question? |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3848
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 6:32 pm: |
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OK, Debby, I'll try to explain my question one last time. After all, poor Joel Dranove is puking all over the place, and I wouldn't want to upset his family.
I am asking why Judaism can support killing on the Sabbath. I thought orthodox Judaism, and conservatism, frowned upon any kind of physical work on the Sabbath. It seems that sitting at the UN and talking about peace is not physical labor.
Just checking with my Jewish MOL poster friends, you know? Simple, unadorned question, that's all. What's the big deal?
maprules:
Have I gotten an honest answer yet?
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3850
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 6:51 pm: |
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Let me put it this way. I frankly doubt the cease fire will ever come about, let alone last. If that's anti-semitism, so be it. Call me Mel. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1409
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 6:56 pm: |
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Joel pretty much busted you. Your posts speak for themselves. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3852
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:00 pm: |
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Busted me? What, like the cops and Mel Gibson?
Soooo, no one wants to tell me how Shabbas and killing go together, then?
OK.
Shabat shalom....
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Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1412
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:09 pm: |
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Even more inappropriate to use the language of Judaism. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3854
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:15 pm: |
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Oh, you have to go to temple to say "shabat shalom?"
What is it, a private club? |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1415
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:17 pm: |
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And what do they tell you at the mosque? |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3855
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:20 pm: |
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I thought you were the one with intimate knowledge of Islam. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1417
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:27 pm: |
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Your posts speak for themselves to people with a brain and a minimum of knowledge.
And now you are dismissed. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3857
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:40 pm: |
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Good, I am glad they speak for themselves, because I am not about to explain them to you. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5477
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 8:28 pm: |
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What is "seventy century islam"? |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2961
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 10:35 pm: |
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tulip's post beginning this thread is so obviously anti-semitic that one does not have to be Joel Dranove to see it!
The highest value of Judaism is saving life. Judaism teaches that when you have saved one life it is as if you have saved the whole world. I am no rabbinic scholar but I would think that a soldier is allowed to defend himself and his comrades and his countrymen from death on the Sabbath and that a Jewish diplomat would be allowed to attend a peace conference on the Sabbath. |
Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 2371
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 12:10 am: |
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That's exactly right, Anon. The general law is that most forms of work should be avoided on the sabbath. However, in order to preserve life and health it is sometimes necessary to go around the work prohibitions. So a Jewish surgeon can be 'on call' over the weekend and return patient phone calls and perform surgery, my Rabbi drove his laboring wife to the hospital, soldiers in battle continue fighting, and Israeli diplomats attend the critical UN Security Council meeting...but they wouldn't have a finance committee or education reform meeting in the Knesset - such things could wait for Sunday.
So Tulip - your question about whether it is permissible to shoot and kill on the sabbath, but not make peace in the UN has a multi-pronged answer:
1) Soldiers in battle continue protecting their country - and this involves shooting and killing
2) It also involves being shot at and getting killed...24 more soldiers were killed today
3)Making Peace in the UN is a vital priority, and therefore merited deviating from the general proscriptions
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3861
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 5:37 am: |
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No, anon is not right. However, since he knows what is in my heart and my mind, we'll have to smile and walk away.
If Judaism, as I thought, attempts to teach healing and love, I find the recent actions by the state and government of Israel, (not "the Jews") anathema to the teachings of the religion. Defending themselves is quite different from committing incursions on a helpless nation, and I maintain that Israel is committing acts that are similar to the pogroms and the Holocaust.
The guilt by association and "mind-reading" trips that have occurred on this message board since July 12 are utterly defenseless.
The actions of Israel are also utterly defenseless. I find the very approach that says "We will have a cease-fire on Monday, but today I will smash you to smithereeens" totally absurd.
I do not know how anyone could call Israel a Jewish state, when it acts in countervention to the teachings of Judaism.
Anon: As many have already said on this message board, being against the actions of a state does not equal in any way being against the people of the state.
If you equate the actions of a state with the people of a state, you are committing acts similar to those of 9/11. If you are thinking like that, you are thinking like Osama bin Laden.
Your contention, and others' knee-jerk responses to my question about theology and policy in Israel indicate just how frightened and irrational American sympathizers with Israel's current behavior can be.
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Maprules
Citizen
Username: Maplefan
Post Number: 53
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 10:42 am: |
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Hezbollah is far from defenseless. Hiding behind the flag of Lebanon is a despicable(yet effective)tactic and one, in my estimation, you have accepted w/o critical thought. You may disagree with Israel's handling of the war, but please frame the dialetic in the right manner. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3864
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 10:56 am: |
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That's just the problem, Maprules. This situation can not be framed in a dialectic. A dialectic requires, by definition, two sides, and this situation is much more complex than either/or arguments suggest.
When a situation is as complex as this one, you have to start ferretting out the urgent issues, which to me, and apparently to the entire United Nations Security Council, are that people who are innocent are being killed.
Hezbollah is not defenseless. Another big surprise. Did Olmert think Hezbollah was defenseless when he agreed to the UN Resolution?
A truce, or cease-fire, would not even be the language of this event if anyone thought Hezbollah were defenseless.
It's the people of Lebanon who are everyday citizens who are being killed here, that concerns me, and also the people of Israel who are not deserving of assault, attack, injury or death. Also, Hezbollah is an elected faction of the government of Lebanon. Another perspective of this situation might say that Israel is asking Lebanon to become polarized, faction against faction, to support Israel's own objectives.
Then you have this terror alert, which makes a political mire of the whole mess.
In sum, it's not a dialectic. It's a massive quagmire, from which each part has to extricate itself. This won't happen, obviously. My guess is, it will be continuing day after day, year after year, as it has for six thousand years.
A six thousand year conflict will not be over Monday morning.
I believe that.
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1878
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 11:55 am: |
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Debby is the only one who actually answered tulips question.
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Maprules
Citizen
Username: Maplefan
Post Number: 54
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 12:04 pm: |
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No one said the conflict between Israel and Iran/Syria's proxy Hezbollah is a dialectic. I was referring to the dialetic taking place on this message board.
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3865
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 12:48 pm: |
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Hoops: Funny how that happened, isn't it?
Maprules: I differ with you there. Siniora may have difficulty mobilizing the Lebanese Army, as it has admittedly been receiving some damage from the last weeks of bombardment, you will admit. I don't think Hezbollah is hiding, or wants to hide behind Lebanon's flag. Eveyone keeps referring to them as terrorists, but goes on to take Lebanese government fairly seriously.
The irony I am trying to point out, or one of them, is that Hezbollah was an elected faction.
What those who call Hezbollah "terrorists" are forgetting, or choosing to overlook, (or calling heresy, anti-semitism, etc.,etc.) is that this legitimization process can happen to a radical splinter group, (and you won't like these analogies, but here goes anyway) witness the American Revolutionaries, the Irgun, (an historical fact), the Civil Rights Movement in the US, the anti=Vietnam movement in the US.
All of these were originally, and some even to this day, seen as radical movements. They became absorbed, one way or another, in the polity of their nations, and legitimized through adoption of their views. So now, what? Do you continue to ignore Hezbollah as a political entity and continue to say they have no right to defend themselves? After all, that's how they see what's going on.
Finally, I really think that some people are not being objective, and you are thinking that's my problem, while I am thinking that may be your problem, Maprules.
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anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2976
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 12:53 pm: |
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This is the only thing tulip said that is worth responding to at this point:
Also, Hezbollah is an elected faction of the government of Lebanon.
Yes, and in Israel the Kach Party, founded by Jewish extremist Meir Kahane, is outlawed. One cannot call for the extermination of Arabs or their deportation and be allowed on the ballot in Israel. |
Wendy
Supporter
Username: Wendy
Post Number: 2956
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 1:41 pm: |
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Thank you anon. Unfortunately I think tulip is looking in a mirror when she tells others that they are being irrational or not being objective. I hope that wonderful response of yours really didn't take too much energy of you to respond to a thread begun as a "rhetorical" question.
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Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 2372
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 2:45 pm: |
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Well done, anon. |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2988
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 7:56 pm: |
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Wendy and Debby, Thank you both so much. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3866
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 8:09 pm: |
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I think you ought to stop worrying so much about whether Israel's neighbors are trying to drive it into the sea and start thinking about how Israel is treating its neighbors. They should work out problems in realistic ways, rather than through bombing. The whole world is watching, folks. You can target me all you like. I am only the messenger. Great Britain didn't have to kill an entire neighborhood to find and arrest the terror suspects.
Neither should Israel.
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Wendy
Supporter
Username: Wendy
Post Number: 2962
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 8:18 pm: |
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Tulip, How about YOU respond to Anon's response to your statement tulip. Everything else, as they say, is rhetorical or idiotic.
Quote:I think you ought to stop worrying so much about whether Israel's neighbors are trying to drive it into the sea and start thinking about how Israel is treating its neighbors.
Holy ignorance (or perhaps anti-semitisim).
Oh, I'm starting a new thread to see how many at least quasi liberal (i.e., did not vote for Bush either time) non-Jews support Israel. Please don't muck it up with any response. thanks in advance.
Oh and don't forget you're on record as saying that if the Jews aren't wanted any longer in Israel, they should just move to Brooklyn. Sheesh, double sheesh and triple sheesh. |
sbenois
Supporter
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15557
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 8:28 pm: |
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W
h
y
D
o
Y
o
u
B
o
t
h
e
r
? |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3867
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 8:29 pm: |
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Wendy,
I try not to respond to posters who call me names and are abusive to me online.
Thank you. |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2991
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 8:30 pm: |
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sbenois: You're right. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3868
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 8:33 pm: |
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We will all see what reason Israel will give for continuing the bombing of residential neighborhoods after the cease-fire deadline. |
Debby
Citizen
Username: Debby
Post Number: 2374
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 11:31 pm: |
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Somehow everything is a residential neighborhood, and only women and children get killed.
Great Britain didn't have to "kill an entire neighborhood" because they were merely tracking suspects who were in the planning stages - not actively attacking the country.
By the way - if by "kill an entire neighborhood" you are referring to the Qana "massacre", Human Rights Watch has already debunked the massacre assertion, and verified that the actual casualties were less than 1/3 of what was claimed (somewhere around 20 actual, vs.70 claimed). It has also been revealed that the apartment building that was hit had rocket launchers on its roof.
Here's a spoiler...in the first Gulf war, the munitions factory we hit really wasn't a "Baby Milk Factory", even though that was clearly handwritten on the sign photographed among the rubble. |
Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 2602
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:34 am: |
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Dylan sums it up quite well:
"Well he knocked out a lynch mob
he was criticized.
Old women condemned him
said he should apologize. (gee, sounds like Kathleen and Tulip, tho I don't know if they're old)
Then he destroyed a bomb factory
nobody was glad.
The bombs were made for him
he was supposed to feel bad.
He's the neighborhood bully."
I tried to stay away from these posts as it's such a tragic situation. My niece was in Israel during this time and the bombs were getting closer and closer. We finally got her out but last time, a good friend of hers was slaughtered by a Palestinian teen right after a Peace Now rally, he couldn't give a sh*t if she was in Peace Now, he just wanted to kill a Jew.
As a good friend of mine in Israel e-mailed me the other day:
"We're so sick of this and wish we had a real partner for Peace. We did it with Egypt and while it is a cold Peace it is a Peace. At this point, we would rather have the worlds critcism then their condolences."
For Staw-Can't be a Liberal and support Israel?., BS. I am and so are many of the posters here.
Kathleen-I hope you never have loved ones in constant danger of losing their lives (like I have) and then someone with an "agenda" tell you, don't protect them. I have no interest in debating you about this, myself and anyone with half a brain know exactly what your agenda is by reading your posts.
Tulip-I'm sorry.
Rant over. |
cmontyburns
Citizen
Username: Cmontyburns
Post Number: 1953
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 9:36 am: |
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Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.
Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.
Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.
Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.
When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.
I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.
But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.
In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.
So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3877
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:03 pm: |
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tom, Uke, Nohero, Cmontyburns, Paul Surovell, Tom Reingold and Dave, Dr. Winston O'Boogie..
A nice picture for you, to thank you....My image of peace, and what I hope for the world...
 |
Josh Holtz
Citizen
Username: Jholtz
Post Number: 588
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:42 pm: |
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Is that a mushroom cloud in the background? |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1429
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:45 pm: |
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Anyone banned by Dave should reference this thread. and Tulip, as a counter-argument IMHO. |
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page