| Author | Message | ||
     Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1834 Registered: 10-2004  |
FIghting the terrorists over there has done nothing to deter the terrorists over there from plotting against us. What has worked time and again is good police and intelligence work to prevent attacks before they happen. If we would have stayed the course in Afghanistan we would be way ahead of these guys right now. Even though we have made great strides towards eliminating the threat of Al Qaeda we have not eradicated them because of the time and resources we have wasted in Iraq. Its a good thing that we have the Brits as allies who are vigilant and committed to finding and stopping terrorist attacks by the extremists. http://www.cnn.com/ | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 485 Registered: 10-2004 |
um, 'they're' not just plotting aginst 'you'. we're (Australians, New Zealanders) getting more than our fair share of threats and attempts, too. and curously these threats seem to be uncovered whenever there is a political embarassment needing to be dodged by the ruling parties or an election milestone is in the wind... not saying there's nothing 'out there' nor that solid detection work isn't uncovering real threat; however coincidence is also a marvellous thing (and often has unreasoned racial bias as a close companion). | ||
| Eric Wertheim Citizen Username: Bub Post Number: 247 Registered: 1-2005 |
Largely agree, though rather than being a merely diversion of time and resources, the Iraq thing has greatly inflamed the problem. PS: This 'Deafening Silence" lead in has already become like fingernails on the chalk board. enough. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12365 Registered: 5-2001 |
This one seems serious. It doesn't appear to be the usual cases we have here in the US where a few guys are sitting around at the coffee shop playing Fantasy Jihad. | ||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 6872 Registered: 12-2001  |
JoanneG...I don't think that Hoops' post was an us vs them thing. This particular story starts and ends in England and USA. So it doesn't address the issue world wide. My brother is a Captain in the Navy stationed on Jakarta. The only way I hear about the terrorism there is when I get the emails from him saying the international media is exaggerating the whole thing. Then I have to go digging around for the story cause in general it doesn't make it to the papers here unless someone dies. As did happen at my brothers lab in an explosion that, for a while, was a suspected "terrorist act". Turns out it was really bad chemistry and bad luck conjoined. But he lives on a state dept. compound and is not allowed to leave it except for work and he is escorted by really buff guys with really big guns whenever he goes anywhere other than his lab. So, the western media is reluctant to report of things on your side of the globe unless it is somewhat sensational. I think the only time I heard anything terroristic from there was when the embassy in Jakarta was threatened. And of course the earthquake that nearly took out my brothers family. This is a western story and I honestly don't think that Hoops was intending to say that we have it worse here or make any comparison at all. But I shouldn't speak for another so I will stop now. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3694 Registered: 5-2001  |
Joanna, my assumption is that Hoops didn't mean "us" as "Americans," but rather as "the good guys" which would certainly include Australia & N.Z. But your points are well taken. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1836 Registered: 10-2004 |
thanks Duncan - what you inferred is what I meant. JoanneG - I agree with you that it is a global problem. I also agree with you that many times the 'plot' has already been discovered, defused or was never a serious threat but is a great diversion from a political mess. However this one is does not have that feel at all. I am thankful for the intelligence services like Scotland Yard who have uncovered this truly horrible plot against innocent people. The fact that 20 or so people have been arrested in the conspiracy shows that intelligence is still the best way to prevent these things from happening. Eric - I couldnt help myself (but I will make this be my last.) | ||
| Robert Livingston Citizen Username: Rob_livingston Post Number: 2005 Registered: 7-2004  |
Hoops: Once again you are right on the money. When the Bush admin got caught lying about WMDs and Saddam's link to Al-Qaida, he went steadfastly with "fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here." What, then, were terrorists doing outside Iraq? Great work by the British intelligence forces. | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3697 Registered: 5-2001 |
RL, I guess those terrorists didn't get the memo that they're supposed to stay in the Middle East. | ||
| Spinal Tap Citizen Username: Spinaltap11 Post Number: 131 Registered: 5-2006  |
How many people who were calling for investigations and impeachment over the NSA wiretapping and data mining, and oppose the PATRIOT Act, are now cheering the Brits’ success and ridiculing the president? What absolute breathtaking hypocrisy. While U.S. law enforcement has fewer restrictions than Western Europeans do in criminal investigations, in intelligence operations, they can run circles around us, using methods that would cause civil libertarians in this country to descend into total hysteria. Furthermore, notwithstanding the reluctance of foreign intelligence agencies to work with the U.S. out of justified fear that their operations, sources, and/or methods will wind up on the front page of the New York Times, what makes everyone so sure that our intelligence or law enforcement agencies were not involved in this investigation? I still don’t understand the refusal by some to recognize that the terrorists caught in the UK this morning, the ones that blew up the trains in Spain, the ones who attacked us on 9-11, the ones the Israelis are fighting in Lebanon, the ones that have been attacking the West for the past 60 years, and yes, the ones we are fighting in Iraq, are all related. They are all cut from the same ideological cloth, incubated in the same fetid fever swamps of Islamic totalitarianism, and all have the same goal, the extermination of Western Civilization. With regard to our enemy, what motivates them, their goals, and the lengths they will go to to achieve their goals, the continuing effort by some to compartmentalize these different groups and fronts, is indicative of a state of denial similar to that which existed in the 1930s. That this is frequently the result of an effort to score political points against a president, who is hated by some to such a degree that it blinds them to the threat we face, is unfortunate. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 3173 Registered: 12-2001  |
A while back, a blinkered war supporter and I were talking. He said that the war was justified by this and that, and the proof was in part "the fact that there haven't been any more terrorist attacks". I asked how that proved the war was a good idea. He said "well, anti-war types predicted that invading Iraq would bring on more attacks." I asked him if the contrary - more attacks - would have made him doubt the invasion. He said no. So there you have it. More terror plots prove that the Iraq war was necessary, and no terror plots proves that the war was justified. And they really are that crazy. So don't enter into stupid discourse with disingenuous people. It's a Escher print argument. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3810 Registered: 3-2004  |
ST: It's just that..no one was thrown into Abu Ghraib. They were merely arrested, and the plot was foiled, period. It was professionally handled. I, for one, say that CIA or FBI or NSA boom and bluster are not appropriate to these smart terrorists. You have to outwit them. If the US had a part in doing so, that's terrific. It just wasn't your usual "catch 'em dead or alive" type of operation, from what I could see. | ||
| Robert Livingston Citizen Username: Rob_livingston Post Number: 2006 Registered: 7-2004 |
This just in: In response to these terrorist arrests, the Bush administration just started bombing Lima, Peru. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave  Post Number: 10424 Registered: 4-1997  |
Of course they're related, though it's clear Iraq is more about civil unrest than terrorism. No one is saying don't fight terrorism. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1842 Registered: 10-2004 |
What absolute twisting of the issue so that you can scream hypocrisy. The issue of impeachment over NSA wiretapping is NOT because of the wire tapping but because the president is breaking the law every time he refuses to ask for a review by the FISA court. The PATRIOT act went overboard problems exposed here Americans deserve security without infringement upon their civil liberties. If anything its your statements that are hypocritical. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 3174 Registered: 12-2001 |
Oh Hoops, come on, guy. EVERYTHING must be done in as divisive and contentous a manner as possible to reap its political good. Where have you been? The WH will walk right up the edge on every single issue as a way of dividing the country as much as possible. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1843 Registered: 10-2004 |
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| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10425 Registered: 4-1997 |
Fear is a powerful motivator and weapon used by terrorists and the Bush administration. Spinal Tap is a victim of the terror. This is what power centers do to their populace. Try to understand his victimhood, his fears, and talk him down. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 2247 Registered: 3-2004 |
Well, we're in the safe hands of Michael Chertoff, now telling us to give the heave-ho to bottles of water, soda, juice, all liquids. So everybody getting ready to board planes is chugging down their recently purchased drinks in advance of boarding. By god, the line to the lavatories, once the seatbelt sign is extinguished, will snake twice around the aircraft. Good thing that we have British Intelligence working for us! With all our assets plugging away in Iraq and plugging the holes that keep opening in Afghanistan, we wouldn't have found out about this until after the next presidential election. | ||
| Robert Livingston Citizen Username: Rob_livingston Post Number: 2007 Registered: 7-2004 |
Bin Laden must have some incriminating photos of Bush (probably with a nosefull of coke in a scene reminiscent of the final moments of Scarface). Perhaps that's the best explanation of why he is still alive. | ||
| mlj Citizen Username: Mlj Post Number: 378 Registered: 6-2001 |
RL that is wickedly funny | ||
| Spinal Tap Citizen Username: Spinaltap11 Post Number: 132 Registered: 5-2006 |
Hoops, That’s your opinion that many agree with and many do not. Regardless, my point is that when it comes to intelligence gathering, the European agencies are bound by laws and procedures that would never fly in this country and are far less restrictive than anything in the PATRIOT Act or FISA. Dave, You need to take the train to downtown Manhattan and look at the hole in the ground for a while. | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1943 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tap, You're still more likely to be struck by lightening than by a terrorist. What is Bush doing about electrical storms? | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2324 Registered: 8-2003  |
Why do you hate freedom? Why do you hate the U.S.? Why do you hate our constitution?  | ||
| MBJ Citizen Username: Mbj Post Number: 230 Registered: 10-2005 |
Livingston, if that's your idea of humor, dont' give up your day job. Assuming you're capable of holding one, of course. | ||
| Robert Livingston Citizen Username: Rob_livingston Post Number: 2008 Registered: 7-2004 |
MBJ: What are you talking about, man? Do you think I'm trying to be a professional comedian? I'm not. Make more sense or we're going to have to put you in the George Bush Home for Demented Right-Wing Nutjobs. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 3175 Registered: 12-2001 |
Flying sucks anyway. If you told me that the whole airline industry, including flights to everwhere, was going to disappear, I personally wouldn't give a crap (although I wouldn't want all those families out there to miss each other). Wasteful, noisy, stupid. Who needs to go 500 mile per hour in an aluminum tube? | ||
| S.L.K. 2.0 Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1854 Registered: 10-2005  |
RL, Why do you keep bringing up Bush's past coke use? Aren't you the guy that admiited you get sloshed every weekend? The difference? Sounds like to me you wish you had that dollar bill rolled up under your nose... -SLK | ||
| Robert Livingston Citizen Username: Rob_livingston Post Number: 2011 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hey Scrote is back. Fantastic. I already see he's applied his razor-sharp insight to many a thread today. We're all better off for having him back. Yippee. I look forward to your many astute observations and carefully thought out analysis of the world's ills. This site is better off for having you around. We owe you a collective thanks for not disappearing altogether. Thank you, scrod, thank you!! | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5454 Registered: 5-2001 |
Hm, the difference between using cocaine and using alcohol? Tough question. | ||
| Spinal Tap Citizen Username: Spinaltap11 Post Number: 133 Registered: 5-2006 |
Like I said - denial. This is what it must have been like for people in the 1930s trying to sound the alarm. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10429 Registered: 4-1997 |
You mean the people trying to gin up hate against an entire race of people? Yeah, I hear ya. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1850 Registered: 10-2004 |
Just for the record, in the 1930's it was the leftists, unions, communists, and what were sure to be called liberals who opposed and resisted against the German Nazis. It was the American right wing who were both the appeasers and ones continuing to do business. The roles have not changed. | ||
| Spinal Tap Citizen Username: Spinaltap11 Post Number: 134 Registered: 5-2006 |
Yes - Winston Churchill was quite the Communist. I know the Dems want to get the debate back to midnight basketball, v-chips, and gays in the military so they have a chance at the White House in 2008 but come on. We are at war. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2333 Registered: 8-2003 |
I hear ya, Spinal. Problem is, we seem to have invaded the wrong country. Once again, we find that the evil doers were in Great Britain, not Iraq:
You hawks are going all wobbly. How come none of you are calling for a full-out invasion of England? | ||
| Billy Jack Citizen Username: Kendalbill Post Number: 223 Registered: 6-2002  |
Is this deafening silence some sort of inside joke on MOL? First Lebanon and now this....there seems to be no shortage of opinions. CNN, Fox are round the clock, Peter King has weighed in (although Schumer's silence is curious...), and I have no doubt there will be multiple archives here before we are done. Even GW interrupted a fund raiser that interrupted his brush clearing to comment today. That's how we know this is taken seriously. | ||
| Costanza Supporter Username: Vandalay Post Number: 1743 Registered: 8-2004  |
Billy, Chucky Schumer is stuck in Heathrow. This adds to the benefits of the foiled plot. You bet he would have been the first Senator in front of the camera. | ||
| Joanne G Citizen Username: Joanne Post Number: 487 Registered: 10-2004 |
morning all....am aboout to dash to work but wanted to say this: us and them is not about West vs East: look at Indonesia (large Muslim population and usually quite a peaceful place), look at India (large Muslim population), look at Japan. All been targetted by same terrorist activity. I think even the Philippines has been targetted, too. White/European style communities, indigenous/traditional Asian/Eastern communities - all have been targetted. Tourist towns, economic centres, 'lone outposts' of 'white' domination (Australia/NZ) have been targetted. This is about urban terrorism on a large scale, working with disaffected youth who find glamour and power in belonging to a secret organisation, in leading hidden lives underneath their surface 'ordinary' 'powerless' lives, who find action of any sort is better than working within traditional channels. It's also about angry bitter older men finding ways to ahrness the natural restlessness and aggression of unformed or overly passionate younger men. (OK, now women are joining in too - what that say about their sense of poer and politics?) Just look at the rhetoric and who is shouting loudest. The 'us and them' is non-terrorist vs terrorist, not anything else. | ||
| Spinal Tap Citizen Username: Spinaltap11 Post Number: 135 Registered: 5-2006 |
Hoops - With regard to the wiretapping, exactly what law did the president break? | ||
| Cougar86 Citizen Username: Cougar86 Post Number: 37 Registered: 3-2006 |
It appears it was US intelligence that tipped the Brits, perhaps something overheard in a wiretapping op that everyone is so up in arms about? |
