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Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1451
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 6:08 pm: | 
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Rather than a psychiatrist, your interpretive, analytic, and reasoning skills would make you a fine dog catcher. |
Lord Pabulum
Citizen
Username: Lord_pabulum
Post Number: 37
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 6:18 pm: |
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When has being anti-Israel become viewed as being socially acceptable? What is anti-Israel?
In observing the recurring hostilities involving Israel in the Middle East, remember that the establishment of Israel entailed the destruction of Palestine and uprooting of hundreds of thousand Palestinians. A traumatic experience for its victims viewed today as a form of patricide by Palestinians and other Arab groups. The elimination of Palestine created bitterness among Palestinians and their friends - a grievance that has escalated over time.
Much of the terrorism today no matter how repugnant has been counter productive to both Arab causes and stabilization (or peace in a perfect world) in the region. Attempts to contain terror or uprisings have on occasion led to ill-considered retaliatory actions.
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1912
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 6:18 pm: |
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typical |
Aquaman
Supporter
Username: Aquaman
Post Number: 995
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 6:49 pm: |
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"Rather than a psychiatrist, your interpretive, analytic, and reasoning skills would make you a fine dog catcher."
The above post from FvF:
a) Makes no sense
b) Is disparaging to Hoops and dog catchers
c) Is cluttery, non-intellectual childish nonsense
d) all of the above
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3ringale
Citizen
Username: Threeringale
Post Number: 350
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 7:30 pm: |
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I would be interested to know if anyone thinks this piece is anti-Israel or anti-Semitic. Personally, I think it is brimming with common sense.
Cheers
August 12, 2006
A Taste of What Is to Come
by Charley Reese
The plot to blow up several American and British airplanes over the Atlantic is merely a taste of things to come. Fortunately, this particular plot was foiled by Scotland Yard and the British counterintelligence people. The death toll might well have exceeded that of the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.
The lesson to be learned is that terrorism is a tactic, and you can't wage war against a tactic. Just because you block one punch doesn't mean that others won't follow.
The root cause of terrorism is politics. People who feel offended, abused, or injured by the policies of the major powers but have no armies with which to defend themselves often resort to terror. It's the only weapon available to the weak.
When you find yourself the target of terrorist tactics, you can't kill your way out of it. That's because, if left unchanged, the same policies that produced the terrorists will keep on producing them. As a matter of fact, the more terrorists you kill, the more you create, especially in cultures where revenge is an important ingredient.
What is needed is a reassessment of our foreign policy. For example, why are we hated by so many Palestinians? The answer is easy: We have been grossly unfair to them. Whatever the Israelis wished to do to them – kill them, destroy their homes, uproot their orchards, confiscate their lands, subject them to all kinds of humiliation – has been perfectly OK with the U.S. government. The last American president who was unafraid of offending the Israelis was Dwight Eisenhower. In 1956, he told them to get out of the Sinai or he would freeze all of their assets. They got out of the Sinai.
Today, there is no avoiding stating the plain truth: We have a problem. The government is totally paralyzed and is unwilling to issue even the mildest rebuke to Israel, no matter how outrageous its behavior. Why? Because the Israel lobby is so powerful, American politicians are afraid of it. I don't blame the Israel lobby for the cowardice of American politicians. American supporters of Israel have a right to lobby the government. But we don't elect politicians to serve a foreign country. We elect them to serve the interests of the American people. The politicians need to learn how to say "no" when our interests and Israel's interests conflict.
For more information on the lobby, read They Dared to Speak Out, edited by former Rep. Paul Findley, and The Passionate Attachment, by former diplomat George Ball.
The American invasion of Iraq created more hatred of the United States. It's hard to think of a more stupid decision. We removed a check against Iran and completely destabilized Iraq, which is now in danger of breaking apart. That may have been our secret intention, since a broken Iraq will be weak and easy to dominate. The only trouble is, it is much more likely to be dominated by Iran than by us. We are now being harshly criticized by the elected Iraqi officials who owe their jobs to the 2,600 American dead.
We have stationed a large number of American military forces in the Persian Gulf. This is resented by most of the people. It is also stupid. What do we think? That some pirates will sail out of the Indian Ocean and steal all of the oil? Whoever runs the governments in the area will gladly sell their oil to us or anybody else.
The only way to win the war on terrorism is to revert to our republican roots and give up imperialism. We're no good at imperialism anyway. Our foreign policy should be just what George Washington said it should be – trade and commerce with all, entangling alliances with nobody, and absolutely no interference in the internal affairs of any other country.
That's not going to happen unless Americans clean house in Washington, and what will happen if they don't clean house is that our children and grandchildren will live under the threat of terrorism because of the stupidity, greed, corruption, and cowardice of the American political establishment.
http://www.antiwar.com/reese/?articleid=9523
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Lord Pabulum
Citizen
Username: Lord_pabulum
Post Number: 38
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:22 pm: |
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The piece is neither anti-Israel nor anti-Semitic. Any adventures involving Israel and its neighbors invokes passion here in the US, blurring the line between domestic vs. foreign policy. Common sense may take a back seat to special interests or stubbornness. |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2997
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:24 pm: |
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In observing the recurring hostilities involving Israel in the Middle East, remember that the establishment of Israel entailed the destruction of Palestine and uprooting of hundreds of thousand Palestinians.
There was a country called "Palestine"? |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2998
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:30 pm: |
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People who don't care what happens to Israel, but who want to use Israel for their own ends, want more war.
Like these folks:
http://www.forward.com/article/conservatives-slam-israeli-war-strategy/ |
Wendy
Supporter
Username: Wendy
Post Number: 3000
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:38 pm: |
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To answer your question 3ringdale, imo the cited article is
1) anti-Israel (obvious)
2) anti-Semitic (obvious)
3) anti-"Palestinian" (not so obvious but since it ascribes all the terror activities to these "oppressed peoples" as opposed to islamofascists, it is indeed anti-Palestinian)
Although you didn't ask, the article is so lacking truth and honest history it actually made me nauseous. But that's just my Jewish sensitivity and your isolationist tendencies at work I suppose.
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tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4701
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 9:53 pm: |
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3ring,
For some strange reason, to suggest that our support of Israel has undesirable consequences makes you anti-Israel and anti-Semitic.
My guess is that supporters of Israel fear this sort of discussion like the Pits of Hell because it can lead nowhere good for them. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1914
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 10:38 pm: |
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is there really a such thing as an islamofascist.
I thought that facism was
Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early>
I dont see any religious component here. I dont see a strong autocrat control and I dont see any economic component.
Islamic radicals yes. Fascists, those I think I reserve for what we have in the white house now.
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tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4702
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 6:07 am: |
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http://www.zeppscommentaries.com/Politics/fascism.htm
Bin Laden is not a Fascist. If he were to achieve his goals, a Fascist Islamic government might well appear, but right now, they are not Fascist.
From the website above, what are some elements of fascism?
Is an economic system geared to the needs, not of the people, but of the wealthy elite.
It is a republican form of government
It features extreme forms of nationalism.
While Nazism is a form of fascism, fascism is not Nazism.
Fascism creates "enemies of the fatherland" in order to gain public support. These "enemies" usually include liberals, socialists, trade unionists, and conspicuous minority groups.
Fascism is not conservative, although it often claims to be traditional.
Fascism will replace a free press with propaganda
Or this, from the first Fascist.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 2357
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 6:57 am: |
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guys, stop being so naive. what's scarier "Islamofascist," or "Muslim extremists?" |
3ringale
Citizen
Username: Threeringale
Post Number: 351
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 8:20 am: |
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I don't really think there is any such thing as Islamo-fascism. Several of the suspects in the UK airplane plot are said to have been recent converts to Islam, not Islamo-fascism, whatever that is.
I have been criticized several times for advocating profiling of Muslims. But if we gave up our imperial adventures in the Middle East and elsewhere, it would pretty much obviate the need for profiling. I would make that trade in a heartbeat. However, I fear that we will continue to entangle ouselves in the Middle East and refuse to profile Muslims, a combination that is sure to come back to haunt us.
Cheers |
Gordon Agress
Citizen
Username: Odd
Post Number: 512
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 8:59 am: |
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Quote:Bin Laden is not a Fascist. If he were to achieve his goals, a Fascist Islamic government might well appear, but right now, they are not Fascist.
That's a great point. As I understand it, Fascism places the collective good of the people, usually as defined by some national/ethnic identity and uniquely interpreted by the Party or Leader, over the good of the individual. Fascism doesn't recognize any authority over the national identity -- no class, no religion, no institution can dictate to it in any way.
Bin Laden's rhetoric obviously puts God, as he interprets Him, as superior to all institutions and law. Of course, his "government" places all the crucial interpretations in the hands of imams beyond any human criticism, so they could effectively do what they like. But their rhetoric does admit that they are secondary to something.
Because it touches an absolute source of authority, this ideology can (and does) reach across national, ethnic and even sectarian lines within Islam. In that way it's worse than Naziism. On the other hand, if you convinced someone that their intepretation of God was wrong, their claims would fall apart. It thus leaves a philosophical foothold for revolution within its own dominion -- and we can expect that its rulers would understand this and would be very violent in supressing any rival Islamic theologies.
Now, the most prominent Muslim economies are commodity economies without much labor productivity or technological creativity to speak of. (Places like Indonesia and maybe Iran and zones in India may be important exceptions.) Combine their unstable political ideology with their miserable economies and it seems to me that jihadism can't ever pose an existential threat like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. Even if they did get their caliphate, they could never build a modern army, and they'd be too busy purging one another to use it. (They have, however, already built nuclear weapons, which are actually a lot cheaper than a serious army.) They're just never going to rule Europe or the Americas or the better part of Asia. It isn't even clear to me whether they really want to, though many European Muslims seem to want their own sectarian cantonments. But since they've zero ideological capacity for self-reflection, the jihadists would blame the social/political/economic nightmare of the caliphate on the West and might well find all kinds of excuses for terrorizing us on that basis alone.
This ideology can't conquer the US or liberal capitalism. But it can and will kill an enormous number of people and make still more miserable while trying to realize its dreams. If you are waiting for a Hitleresque/Stalinesque threat to take action, you'll never get one. But at some point the violence is going to reach a point where we must do something serious. The longer we wait, the harder and costlier it will be.
So yeah, GWB is probably sloppy when he calls these characters "fascists". But he's absolutely right about the magnitude of the problem.
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kathleen
Citizen
Username: Symbolic
Post Number: 648
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 3:39 pm: |
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My props to Nohero, Dr. Winston O'Boogie and Hoops for showing such a stiff spine and clear head in pushing back against bullying and war hysteria. The turn this thread took gives me hope that we have a chance in stopping Bush from launching a war against Iran before his term is up. Refusing to play on their terms -- and saying why -- is an all-important step. It's a lesson I learned from watching the US go to war in Iraq. I'm seeing a repeat of the same propaganda process. I'm glad to see people just standing their ground against the false premises and false nomenclatures.
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Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7718
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 5:03 pm: |
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Kathleen thinks Nohero, Dr. Winston O'Boogie and Hoops will help stop Bush from launching war with Iran.. 
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Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1454
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 5:06 pm: |
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I agree with Aquaman only insofar as I must apologize to dogcatchers for lumping Hoops in with them. They no doubt provide their community with a useful service, and approach their activities with a degree of common sense.
My thread I see has been misapplied to other uses, but that confirms my personal thoughts. Namely that anti-semitism is a far less important form of prejudice among the liberal cognoscenti to merit the same self-questioning and opinion monitoring that racism, sexual orientation, or gender-based discrimination achieves. My alternative conclusion would be that everyone grew up in Mayberry, RFD, or that there is absolutely no anti-semitism anywhere in this fine country. Duh.
I respect you are all intelligent people who view your politics with great passion, but you ignore the war clouds on the horizon and appear to deny the extreme gravity of our situation. Like Neville Chamberlain and kathleen you hope for "peace in our time" ignoring history and that the effects of denial of Hitler's true intentions and not going to war over Czechoslovakia, led to a massive and a world war far more costly in human lives.
Frankly I am afraid that many of the same "peace" or "anti-war" posters here will begin their posts with "I didn't know" or " I didn't realize", god willing that we will all still be here, in two to three years from now.
Wake up.
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tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4705
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 6:08 pm: |
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Among domestic problems facing the United States, it is absolutely the case the racism and the legacy of slavery is a far more serious problem than anti-Semitism past or present. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 2366
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 6:47 pm: |
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Quote:god willing that we will all still be here, in two to three years from now.
Wake up.
that's WAY over the top fear mongering. |
Lord Pabulum
Citizen
Username: Lord_pabulum
Post Number: 41
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 10:42 pm: |
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If african americans were as conerneed about the Darfur Conflict... I'll let all of you fill in the blanks. Unless I'm being anti-semetic... |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1924
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 9:02 am: |
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Quote:I agree with Aquaman only insofar as I must apologize to dogcatchers for lumping Hoops in with them. They no doubt provide their community with a useful service, and approach their activities with a degree of common sense.
Beautiful sentiment fvf but I think you are holding back. Just tell me what you really mean.
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Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1455
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 8:20 pm: |
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Interesting article by Fein on leftist antipathy to Israel-
www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=2391#more-2391 |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1941
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 11:16 pm: |
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Psychobabble because Fein doesnt want to take a critical look at the tactics that Israel is using to combat this scourge of terrorism.
I took this quote from the article because it speaks to the actual issue -
Quote:We remain more concerned with civil liberties than with national security.
Illuminated Radish said it best in the profiling thread
Quote:...You can do anything, ANYTHING, to single out suspected terrorist, but if they really want to kill you... they will. Maybe it's better to make people not want to kill you instead. Profiling will only lead to more angry people who want to kill you.
Infact, you guys are part of this disturbing anti-American American subculture that's arising. It's this culture that seems to forget that our country isn't supposed to be safe, it's supposed to be a land of liberty. We could start taking away people's liberty, and MAYBE we'd feel safer, but I doubt we actually would be.
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Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5752
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 11:18 pm: |
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The Fein essay starts with an unsupported assumption. The rest of his o-called "argument" follows from that.
Kind of like the first post in this thread. |
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