Cheney's weird experiment with Israel... Log Out | Lost Password? | Topics | Search | Who's Online
Contact | Register | My Profile | SO home | MOL home

M-SO Message Board » Soapbox: All Politics » Archive through August 26, 2006 » Cheney's weird experiment with Israeli lives « Previous Next »

  Thread Originator Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
  ClosedClosed: New threads not accepted on this page          

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave


Post Number: 10480
Registered: 4-1997


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Quote:

Cheney's office supported the Israeli plan, as did Elliott Abrams, a deputy national-security adviser, according to several former and current officials. (A spokesman for the N.S.C. denied that Abrams had done so.) They believed that Israel should move quickly in its air war against Hezbollah. A former intelligence officer said, "We told Israel, 'Look, if you guys have to go, we're behind you all the way. But we think it should be sooner rather than later—the longer you wait, the less time we have to evaluate and plan for Iran before Bush gets out of office.' "

Cheney's point, the former senior intelligence official said, was "What if the Israelis execute their part of this first, and it's really successful? It'd be great. We can learn what to do in Iran by watching what the Israelis do in Lebanon." (Right out of Dr Strangelove)

The Pentagon consultant told me that intelligence about Hezbollah and Iran is being mishandled by the White House the same way intelligence had been when, in 2002 and early 2003, the Administration was making the case that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. "The big complaint now in the intelligence community is that all of the important stuff is being sent directly to the top—at the insistence of the White House—and not being analyzed at all, or scarcely," he said. "It's an awful policy and violates all of the N.S.A.'s strictures, and if you complain about it you're out," he said. "Cheney had a strong hand in this."

The long-term Administration goal was to help set up a Sunni Arab coalition—including countries like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt—that would join the United States and Europe to pressure the ruling Shiite mullahs in Iran. "But the thought behind that plan was that Israel would defeat Hezbollah, not lose to it," the consultant with close ties to Israel said. Some officials in Cheney's office and at the N.S.C. had become convinced, on the basis of private talks, that those nations would moderate their public criticism of Israel and blame Hezbollah for creating the crisis that led to war. Although they did so at first, they shifted their position in the wake of public protests in their countries about the Israeli bombing. The White House was clearly disappointed when, late last month, Prince Saud al-Faisal, the Saudi foreign minister, came to Washington and, at a meeting with Bush, called for the President to intervene immediately to end the war. The Washington Post reported that Washington had hoped to enlist moderate Arab states "in an effort to pressure Syria and Iran to rein in Hezbollah, but the Saudi move . . . seemed to cloud that initiative."




If I were Jewish (or a citizen of Israel), I'd have some questions for the Bush administration about rushing Israel to war as lab mice because of our election timetables.


http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821fa_fact
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen
Username: Mfpark

Post Number: 3569
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I were a citizen of Israel, I think I would first have questions about Israeli leadership doing the bidding of the US and not responding to Israel's own needs.

By the by, I think that Israel did not go because the US told them to, but Israel would not have gone without a green light from the US. The US approval was a necessary but not sufficient condition.

And it looks like lots of Israelis are rethinking Ohlmert right now, but not because of why he went to war but because he did not get a clear and rapid victory as they have in the recent past. Even the peace movement in Israel believed that the war was appropriate at the start, although they diverged once the scope expanded.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave


Post Number: 10483
Registered: 4-1997


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's hard to determine how the timing thing worked. Looks like we put a good amount of pressure on them.

The facts will begin to emerge along with questions regarding accountability. Overly optimistic guesswork seems to follow our administration wherever it goes. At least they've learned to let others do the dying in this one.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

steel
Citizen
Username: Steel

Post Number: 1101
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 1:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

-The best line from the New Yorker article is the last line:

-"The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result.”
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 2024
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bush and Cheney push the issue, and what happens? They make everything worse for everybody, except of course, Hizbollah, the terrorists. Seems that the terrorists are always coming out on top with Bush and Cheney in charge, doesn't it? In any case, Israeli and Lebanese civilians get killed, Israel loses a vital PR campaign in the process while democracy in Lebanon takes a huge step back. Nice job, Bush, whose only motivation was GOP poll numbers. Worst president ever.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen
Username: Mfpark

Post Number: 3572
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I repeat--Israel made this decision, not Bush, in reaction to an incursion by Hezbollah. You can castigate Bush for not keeping enough distance between himself and Israel to credibly allow Israel to claim the US forced it to back down (as happened when Israel was ready to roll right up to Cairo in 1973). You can castigate Bush for having miserably failed to have a Middle East policy, including working with other nations to defang Hezbollah prior to their incursion into Israel. You can lambaste Bush for not having a coherent policy to make sure theis does not happen again. But you can only blame Israel and Hezbollah for how the war was prosecuted. They are the actors that made the choices--the rest of the world's nations were enablers.

Steel's quote (an oldie but goodie) sums it all up perfectly. Neither Israel nor Hezbollah seem able to break out of the insane dance they are in. Where the blame comes for the rest of us is that we are not doing much to help end the insanity.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops

Post Number: 1885
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Quote:

They are the actors that made the choices--the rest of the world's nations were enablers.




Quite right but it does look like neocons are in the Israeli government playing from the same page that Cheney and co are playing from. I dont think it is coincidence as much as it is shared vision and goals.

I dont believe the US can sway Israel to do something it doesnt plan on doing militarily but if the plans were already on the table I do think America has some influence with Israel.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

tom
Citizen
Username: Tom

Post Number: 5501
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well it's obvious that "Seymour Hersh is an anti-semite" is not going to fly. I wonder what the talking point will be?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets

Post Number: 1331
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

tom,
that's an easy one, he's self-loathing.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 2026
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Old standby: He hates freedom.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lord Pabulum
Citizen
Username: Lord_pabulum

Post Number: 31
Registered: 7-2006


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Keep in mind the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, one of the most powerful interest groups in Washington has been shaping U.S. Middle East for decades. A case of the tail wagging the dog.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lord Pabulum
Citizen
Username: Lord_pabulum

Post Number: 33
Registered: 7-2006


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

U.S. Middle East policies
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction

Post Number: 1425
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am kind of disappointed as I thought this would be a conspiracy thread that included ufos.

Friendly countries and strategic allies have reviewed and discussed war and self-defense scenerios over the years on political-millitary grounds. I believe that the US has also done so with countries other than Israel. Washington culture is rife with disagreements, competing interests, and leaks and Sy Hersh is a bombshell story type of guy.

Lord Pablum misses the fact that AIPAC was investigated by the FBI. If "The Jews" are running our foreign policy that seems real unlikely.

Considering this is news, but not exactly shocking news, I think MOL should get an anthropologist to study MOL pack behavior. Out in the wilds of the internet one poster calls out Bush is a chimp, and the pack joins in to echo.

Save the anti-Bush depreciation for a better story guys.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

tom
Citizen
Username: Tom

Post Number: 5502
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those are the talking points? C'mon FvF, get your game on!

And Bush is a chimp.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lord Pabulum
Citizen
Username: Lord_pabulum

Post Number: 34
Registered: 7-2006


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't get paranoid FvF. Remember Israel's strategic importance to the region.

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn

Post Number: 4692
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The issue is not that Israel and the United States discussed war plans. The serious issue is that the various decision-makers seemed to think these plans were good plans.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction

Post Number: 1427
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pablum, you're pablum.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction

Post Number: 1428
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tjohn-

You're not talking the IDF plans, you're talking Olmert/Peretz execution of them.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn

Post Number: 4693
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FvF,

If Israel was acting only to deal with the threat from Hezbollah, then we can debate the military and political specifics, but not really the need to act.

OTOH, if this was in anyway motivated by the factors cited in the Seymour Hersh article, then I look forward to a speedy collapse of the Olmert government.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction

Post Number: 1431
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

tjohn-

Read my post on your thread. The Iranians' ability to use Hezbollah as a deterrent to Israeli or American action on their nukes is shot. They would have to re-invest billions they now don't have available.

Maybe this is the real conspiracy?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops

Post Number: 1892
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

how far-fetched can you get?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction

Post Number: 1436
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hoops-

Sorry, but I rely on you for that far-fetched stuff.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | User List | Help/Instructions | Credits Administration