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Dave
Supporter Username: Dave
Post Number: 10480 Registered: 4-1997

| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:00 pm: |
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Quote:Cheney's office supported the Israeli plan, as did Elliott Abrams, a deputy national-security adviser, according to several former and current officials. (A spokesman for the N.S.C. denied that Abrams had done so.) They believed that Israel should move quickly in its air war against Hezbollah. A former intelligence officer said, "We told Israel, 'Look, if you guys have to go, we're behind you all the way. But we think it should be sooner rather than later—the longer you wait, the less time we have to evaluate and plan for Iran before Bush gets out of office.' " Cheney's point, the former senior intelligence official said, was "What if the Israelis execute their part of this first, and it's really successful? It'd be great. We can learn what to do in Iran by watching what the Israelis do in Lebanon." (Right out of Dr Strangelove) The Pentagon consultant told me that intelligence about Hezbollah and Iran is being mishandled by the White House the same way intelligence had been when, in 2002 and early 2003, the Administration was making the case that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. "The big complaint now in the intelligence community is that all of the important stuff is being sent directly to the top—at the insistence of the White House—and not being analyzed at all, or scarcely," he said. "It's an awful policy and violates all of the N.S.A.'s strictures, and if you complain about it you're out," he said. "Cheney had a strong hand in this." The long-term Administration goal was to help set up a Sunni Arab coalition—including countries like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt—that would join the United States and Europe to pressure the ruling Shiite mullahs in Iran. "But the thought behind that plan was that Israel would defeat Hezbollah, not lose to it," the consultant with close ties to Israel said. Some officials in Cheney's office and at the N.S.C. had become convinced, on the basis of private talks, that those nations would moderate their public criticism of Israel and blame Hezbollah for creating the crisis that led to war. Although they did so at first, they shifted their position in the wake of public protests in their countries about the Israeli bombing. The White House was clearly disappointed when, late last month, Prince Saud al-Faisal, the Saudi foreign minister, came to Washington and, at a meeting with Bush, called for the President to intervene immediately to end the war. The Washington Post reported that Washington had hoped to enlist moderate Arab states "in an effort to pressure Syria and Iran to rein in Hezbollah, but the Saudi move . . . seemed to cloud that initiative."
If I were Jewish (or a citizen of Israel), I'd have some questions for the Bush administration about rushing Israel to war as lab mice because of our election timetables. http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821fa_fact |
   
Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 3569 Registered: 9-2001

| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:15 pm: |
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If I were a citizen of Israel, I think I would first have questions about Israeli leadership doing the bidding of the US and not responding to Israel's own needs. By the by, I think that Israel did not go because the US told them to, but Israel would not have gone without a green light from the US. The US approval was a necessary but not sufficient condition. And it looks like lots of Israelis are rethinking Ohlmert right now, but not because of why he went to war but because he did not get a clear and rapid victory as they have in the recent past. Even the peace movement in Israel believed that the war was appropriate at the start, although they diverged once the scope expanded. |
   
Dave
Supporter Username: Dave
Post Number: 10483 Registered: 4-1997

| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 12:22 pm: |
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It's hard to determine how the timing thing worked. Looks like we put a good amount of pressure on them. The facts will begin to emerge along with questions regarding accountability. Overly optimistic guesswork seems to follow our administration wherever it goes. At least they've learned to let others do the dying in this one. |
   
steel
Citizen Username: Steel
Post Number: 1101 Registered: 2-2002
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 1:09 pm: |
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-The best line from the New Yorker article is the last line: -"The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result.” |
   
Robert Livingston
Citizen Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 2024 Registered: 7-2004

| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:21 pm: |
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Bush and Cheney push the issue, and what happens? They make everything worse for everybody, except of course, Hizbollah, the terrorists. Seems that the terrorists are always coming out on top with Bush and Cheney in charge, doesn't it? In any case, Israeli and Lebanese civilians get killed, Israel loses a vital PR campaign in the process while democracy in Lebanon takes a huge step back. Nice job, Bush, whose only motivation was GOP poll numbers. Worst president ever. |
   
Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 3572 Registered: 9-2001

| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:45 pm: |
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I repeat--Israel made this decision, not Bush, in reaction to an incursion by Hezbollah. You can castigate Bush for not keeping enough distance between himself and Israel to credibly allow Israel to claim the US forced it to back down (as happened when Israel was ready to roll right up to Cairo in 1973). You can castigate Bush for having miserably failed to have a Middle East policy, including working with other nations to defang Hezbollah prior to their incursion into Israel. You can lambaste Bush for not having a coherent policy to make sure theis does not happen again. But you can only blame Israel and Hezbollah for how the war was prosecuted. They are the actors that made the choices--the rest of the world's nations were enablers. Steel's quote (an oldie but goodie) sums it all up perfectly. Neither Israel nor Hezbollah seem able to break out of the insane dance they are in. Where the blame comes for the rest of us is that we are not doing much to help end the insanity. |
   
Hoops
Citizen Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1885 Registered: 10-2004

| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 2:57 pm: |
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Quote:They are the actors that made the choices--the rest of the world's nations were enablers.
Quite right but it does look like neocons are in the Israeli government playing from the same page that Cheney and co are playing from. I dont think it is coincidence as much as it is shared vision and goals. I dont believe the US can sway Israel to do something it doesnt plan on doing militarily but if the plans were already on the table I do think America has some influence with Israel. |
   
tom
Citizen Username: Tom
Post Number: 5501 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:29 pm: |
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Well it's obvious that "Seymour Hersh is an anti-semite" is not going to fly. I wonder what the talking point will be? |
   
Joe
Citizen Username: Gonets
Post Number: 1331 Registered: 2-2004
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:08 pm: |
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tom, that's an easy one, he's self-loathing. |
   
Robert Livingston
Citizen Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 2026 Registered: 7-2004

| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:14 pm: |
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Old standby: He hates freedom. |
   
Lord Pabulum
Citizen Username: Lord_pabulum
Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2006

| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 4:28 pm: |
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Keep in mind the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, one of the most powerful interest groups in Washington has been shaping U.S. Middle East for decades. A case of the tail wagging the dog. |
   
Lord Pabulum
Citizen Username: Lord_pabulum
Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2006

| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:11 pm: |
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U.S. Middle East policies |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1425 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:29 pm: |
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I am kind of disappointed as I thought this would be a conspiracy thread that included ufos. Friendly countries and strategic allies have reviewed and discussed war and self-defense scenerios over the years on political-millitary grounds. I believe that the US has also done so with countries other than Israel. Washington culture is rife with disagreements, competing interests, and leaks and Sy Hersh is a bombshell story type of guy. Lord Pablum misses the fact that AIPAC was investigated by the FBI. If "The Jews" are running our foreign policy that seems real unlikely. Considering this is news, but not exactly shocking news, I think MOL should get an anthropologist to study MOL pack behavior. Out in the wilds of the internet one poster calls out Bush is a chimp, and the pack joins in to echo. Save the anti-Bush depreciation for a better story guys.
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tom
Citizen Username: Tom
Post Number: 5502 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:31 pm: |
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Those are the talking points? C'mon FvF, get your game on! And Bush is a chimp. |
   
Lord Pabulum
Citizen Username: Lord_pabulum
Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2006

| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:35 pm: |
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Don't get paranoid FvF. Remember Israel's strategic importance to the region.
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tjohn
Supporter Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4692 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:37 pm: |
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The issue is not that Israel and the United States discussed war plans. The serious issue is that the various decision-makers seemed to think these plans were good plans. |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1427 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:38 pm: |
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Pablum, you're pablum.  |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1428 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:40 pm: |
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Tjohn- You're not talking the IDF plans, you're talking Olmert/Peretz execution of them. |
   
tjohn
Supporter Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4693 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 5:57 pm: |
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FvF, If Israel was acting only to deal with the threat from Hezbollah, then we can debate the military and political specifics, but not really the need to act. OTOH, if this was in anyway motivated by the factors cited in the Seymour Hersh article, then I look forward to a speedy collapse of the Olmert government. |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1431 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:36 pm: |
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tjohn- Read my post on your thread. The Iranians' ability to use Hezbollah as a deterrent to Israeli or American action on their nukes is shot. They would have to re-invest billions they now don't have available. Maybe this is the real conspiracy?  |
   
Hoops
Citizen Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1892 Registered: 10-2004

| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 6:45 pm: |
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how far-fetched can you get?
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Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1436 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:20 pm: |
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Hoops- Sorry, but I rely on you for that far-fetched stuff. |