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sbenois
Supporter Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15585 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 9:08 pm: |
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Actually, please scratch my prior comment. I'm too cool to have read this thread.
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tom
Citizen Username: Tom
Post Number: 5583 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 9:11 pm: |
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sbenois, does your pager go off or something when you're mentioned here? |
   
sbenois
Supporter Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15586 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 9:12 pm: |
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tick tick tick tick DING!!!!! (yes) |
   
Paul Surovell
Supporter Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 730 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 9:31 pm: |
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Excellent caricature of your posts, Gordon. You know what people are going to post before they do it, you know what they really mean instead of what they've written, and you always change the subject when you've been caught in a falsehood.
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Hoops
Citizen Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1942 Registered: 10-2004

| Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 11:20 pm: |
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Gordon - that post is a qualifier for post of the year. (right behind sbenois Southerner satire) |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1462 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Monday, August 21, 2006 - 2:20 pm: |
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The most intellectually accurate assessment so far as it relates to Israel and the second Lebanese war can be found in today's Jerusalem Post online edition written by Ed Luttwak, a former Professor with an extensive background in the pertinent subjects, going back over several decades. An old master. Bob K, please read. And learn?
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Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12447 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Monday, August 21, 2006 - 2:42 pm: |
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Fact an interesting article, but in the end a puff piece because of two factors. First, the author is comparing a classic desert war of manuver with the assymetrical warfare that took place in Lebanon. Second, the IDF didn't send in significant troops until the very end of the war, limiting casualties. From memory I think they suffered around 30 dead in the drive to the Litani in around 24 hours and they were bypassing strong points to come back and attack them later. I can't figure out Israel's strategy. Did they really believe their own version of "shock and awe" would cower not just Hezbollah, but the rest of the Syrians as well? I think everyone agrees that the current cease fire is only temporary. Hopefull this will give Israel a chance to rebuld and retrain their troops. Israel has the same problem that any democracy with a non-volunteer army. Not all the troops are enthusiastic about death (Hezbollah doesn't have this problem), especially when, apparently, many of the troops are as confused about goals as the rest of us. Israel gave Hezbollah a bloody nose, but they certainly didn't eliminate them as a threat and their bombing tactics probably alienated a lot of Sunni and Christian Lebanese. Israel has the power to wipe out Hezbollah south of the Litani, but do they have the will? Certainly the Bushies gave them enough time to do it by stonewalling a cease fire, but they didn't take advantage.
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J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2683 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 1:14 am: |
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"Because Israel and Hezbollah approved a cease-fire agreement." No, Paul. Hizballah agreed to the ceasefire, but only "in principle". It did not agree to disarm. This fact was not covered by much of the press. |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2684 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 1:17 am: |
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And now for something completely different from the usual Rockettes' Chorus of condemnation for Israel's conduct of the war:
Misreading the Lebanon war EDWARD N.LUTTWAK , THE JERUSALEM POST Aug. 20, 2006 In the immediate aftermath of the 1973 October War, there was much joy in the Arab world because the myth of Israeli invincibility had been shattered by the surprise Egyptian crossing of the Suez Canal, and the Syrian offensive that swept across the Golan Heights. Even unbiased commentators noted the failure of the Israeli air force to repeat its feats of 1967 while losing fully one-quarter of its combat aircraft to ground fire, just as hundreds of Israeli tanks were damaged or destroyed by brave Egyptian infantrymen with their hand-carried missiles and rockets. In Israel, there was harsh criticism of political and military chiefs alike, who were blamed for the loss of 3,000 soldiers in a war that ended without a clear victory. Prime Minister Golda Meir, defense minister Moshe Dayan, the chief of staff, David Elazar and the chief of military intelligence were all discredited and soon replaced. It was only later that a sense of proportion was regained, ironically by the Egyptian and Syrian leaders before anyone else. While commentators in Israel and around the world were still mourning or gloating over Israel's lost military supremacy, both Egypt's president Sadat and Syrian president Assad soberly recognized that their countries had come closer to catastrophic defeat than in 1967, and that it was absolutely imperative to avoid another war. That led to Sadat's peace and Assad's 1974 cease-fire on the Golan Heights, never violated since then. Only in retrospect can the 1973 war be satisfactorily analyzed. Israel had been caught by surprise, because perfectly good Intelligence was misinterpreted in a climate of arrogant over-confidence. The frontal sectors, left almost unguarded, were largely overrun. The Egyptians had an excellent war plan and fought well. Syrian tanks advanced boldly and even where a lone Israeli brigade held out, they kept attacking in wave after wave for three days and nights. Within 48 hours, Israel seemed on the verge of defeat on both fronts. But as soon as its army was fully mobilized, as soon as the reservist brigades that make up nine-tenths of its strength were ready to deploy for battle, it turned out that they could stop both the Egyptian and Syrian armies in their tracks, and start their own advance almost immediately. The war ended with Israeli forces 70 miles from Cairo, and less than 20 miles from Damascus. As for the Israeli air force, its strength over the battlefields was certainly blunted by concentrated anti-aircraft missiles and guns, but its air-combat supremacy prevented almost all attacks by the large Egyptian and Syrian air forces, while itself being able to bomb in depth almost at will. That was the real military balance of the 1973 war, which was obscured by the tremendous shock of surprise, emotional overreaction, and the plain difficulty of seeing things as they are through the fog of war. It is the same now, with the Lebanon war just ended. Future historians will no doubt see things much more clearly, but some gross misperceptions are perfectly obvious even now. That even the heaviest and best-protected of battle tanks are sometimes penetrated by the latest anti-tank missiles should really not surprise anyone; they cannot be invulnerable, and did well enough in limiting Israeli casualties. Likewise, the lack of defenses against short-range rockets with small warheads is merely common sense. They are just not powerful enough to justify the expenditure of many billions of dollars for laser weapon systems the size of football fields. More serious misperceptions are equally obvious. For example, instead of dismissing Nasrallah's boasts, many commentators around the world kept repeating and endorsing his claim that his fighters fought much more bravely than the regular soldiers of Arab states in previous wars with Israel. In 1973, after crossing the Suez Canal, Egyptian infantrymen by the thousands stood their ground unflinchingly against advancing 50-ton Israeli battle tanks, to attack them successfully with their puny hand-held weapons. They were in the open, flat desert, with none of the cover and protection that Hizbullah had in their fortified bunkers or in Lebanon's rugged terrain. Later, within the few square miles of the so-called Chinese farm near the Suez Canal, the Israelis lost more soldiers fighting against the Egyptians in a single day and night than the 116 killed in a month of war in Lebanon - including the victims of vehicle accidents and friendly fire. Even in 1967, the best Israeli troops lost 37 killed in four hours to take less than a mile of trenches on Jerusalem's Ammunition Hill. The defending Jordanian infantry kept fighting until the end, even though they were greatly outnumbered and encircled from the start. Hizbullah certainly did not run away and did hold its ground, but its mediocrity is revealed by the casualties it inflicted, which were very few. When an IDF company attacked the mountain town of Bint Jbail, losing eight men in one night, that number was perceived in Israel - and broadcast around the world - as a disastrous loss. Many a surviving veteran of the 1943-1945 Italian campaign must have been amazed by this reaction. There too it was one stone-built village and hilltop town after another, and though the Germans were outnumbered, outgunned and poorly supplied, a company that went against them would consider the loss of only eight men as very fortunate, because attacking forces could suffer a 150% or even 300% casualty rates - that mathematical impossibility being explained by the need for a second, third or fourth assault wave to take a small village. Even that was not much as compared to the 6,821 Americans who died to conquer the eight square miles of Iwo Jima. Hizbullah should not of course be held to such standards, but on the whole it did not fight as fiercely as the Egyptians in 1973 or the Jordanians in 1967 - as Israeli casualty figures demonstrate. What is perfectly true is that the Israelis lacked a coherent war plan, so that even their most purposeful bombing came off as brutally destructive (though with a deterrence payoff, as Syria's immobility showed), while the ground actions were hesitant and inconclusive from start to finish. There was a fully developed plan, of course, in the contingency folders - a sophisticated blend of amphibious, airborne and ground penetrations to swiftly reach deep behind the front, before rolling back, so as to destroy Hizbullah positions one by one from the rear, all the way to the Israeli border. That plan was not implemented because of the lack of casualties among Israeli civilians. It had been a fair assumption that thousands of Hizbullah rockets fired in concentrated barrages would kill many civilians, perhaps hundreds of them each day. Barrages cancel out the inaccuracy of unguided rockets, and powerfully compound blast effects. That would make a large-scale offensive by more than 45,000 soldiers a compelling necessity, politically justifying the hundreds of casualties that it would certainly have cost. Hizbullah, however, distributed its rockets to village militias that were very good at hiding them from air attacks, sheltering them from artillery and from probing Israeli unmanned air vehicles, but quite incapable of launching them effectively, in simultaneous launches against the same targets. Instead of hundreds of dead civilians, the Israelis were therefore losing one or two a day, and even after three weeks, the grand total was less than in some one-man suicide bombings. That made it politically unacceptable to launch the planned offensive that would kill young soldiers and family men, while not eradicating Hizbullah anyway, because it is a political movement in arms, and not just an army or a bunch of gunmen. For that very reason, the outcome of the war is likely to be more satisfactory than many now seem to believe. Hassan Nasrallah is not another Yasser Arafat, who was fighting for eternal Palestine and not for actually living Palestinians, whose prosperity and safety he was always willing to sacrifice for the cause. Nasrallah has a political constituency, and it happens to be centered in southern Lebanon. Implicitly accepting responsibility for having started the war, Nasrallah has directed his Hizbullah to focus on rapid reconstruction in villages and towns, right up to the Israeli border. He cannot start another round of fighting that would quickly destroy everything again. Yet another unexpected result of the war is that Nasrallah's power-base in southern Lebanon is more than ever a hostage for Hizbullah's good behavior. The writer is a Washington-based military strategist. |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2685 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 2:17 am: |
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Oops, I didn't notice FvF's mention of the Luttwak piece above. Bobbest K: "First, the author is comparing a classic desert war of manuver with the assymetrical warfare that took place in Lebanon." "Classic desert war of man[o]uver"? Sheer bluster. You have not read the article. Luttwak's comparison is between military losses and political liabilities, not tactics or terrains. "Second, the IDF didn't send in significant troops until the very end of the war, limiting casualties." You seem to have completely overlooked Luttwak's very salient analysis of why this occurred: too few Israeli civilian casualties made the prospect of numerous Israeli military casualties too steep a price to pay. That will not be the case as Iran and its proxies become more threatening--but they know this, so the odds are that Israel has not in fact exhausted its deterrent capability at all. I am quite amazed that 19 out of 20 commentators everywhere seem to think that a) just because Hizzy declares victory it is victorious, and b) Hizzy's current popularity in Lebbo is not transient. FvF: "Summary: For Israel - Lebanon allows correction and improvement of millitary tactics, strategies, will cause increased millitary expenditures and better training of reserves. Bad news for Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran. Israel will be well prepared to fight the wider war that is certainly coming." I agree. (Same reasoning in Debka, if I recall.) "For sunni arab states - Wakeup call and motivation to seek peace options and counter the growing threat of Iranian Persian influence on shi'a and sunni muslims in the region. Saudi money to be liberally applied. Arab leaders not happy to be called " half-men" by Assad Jr., whose head remains on the chopping block." Also agreed. "Arab street- Never changed anything since 1967, will not change anything now." Don't agree. As you know, the Arab street has produced the Ikhwan and its descendents. As such it has spawned a direct threat to the US (and to Israel of course, but that's nothing new). On the other hand, one could argue that al Qaeda's metamorphosis into a US threat was precisely what coalesced the neoconservative venture into mideast democratization; but in that case the Arab street has already altered history in a rather significant way. I wonder if, in another generation, we won't see the emergence of freelance ethnic counter-terrorists as independent of state control as al Qaeda et al. are now. |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12452 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 4:57 am: |
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JC, you mean like Lehi and Irgun? Hezbollah seems to be doing a good job in seducing the rest of Lebanon. The PM, a Sunni, toured the "Forbidden City" area of South Berut the other day, which is an area that has previously been off limits to the Lebanese government. Thanks to the money he is receiving from Iran Nazzaralah is making friends with grants to those who lost their homes in the "war". He is also smart enough to play down the more extreme aspects of his religion by not requiring, for now, women to veil and reaching out to the Sunni and even Christian population. He is much more dangerous than most of the other wack jobs in the Middle East. |
   
Gordon Agress
Citizen Username: Odd
Post Number: 530 Registered: 8-2004

| Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 7:34 am: |
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Quote:Hizballah agreed to the ceasefire, but only "in principle". It did not agree to disarm. This fact was not covered by much of the press.
I don't completely agree JC. Of course Hezbollah will say whatever they find convenient, so defining their "agreements" isn't much more than counterpropaganda to begin with. But the Lebanese government did agree to disarmament, and Hezbollah is represented therein, so I think we should all take that as Hezbollah's own agreement and hold them accountable. The agreement of the Lebanese government and the "international community" is more important, though neither has the means or will to follow through. People who target innocents shouldn't have guns in the first place, but if this disarmament agreement is the rubric that gets the world to that self-evident conclusion then let's take it.
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J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2687 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 6:40 pm: |
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"But the Lebanese government did agree to disarmament, and Hezbollah is represented therein, so I think we should all take that as Hezbollah's own agreement and hold them accountable." Unfortunately we cannot take it as Hizballah's agreement because Hizballah explicitly did not agree (except "in principle," i.e., under conditions that can probably never exist). Moreover, because we (the US, the international community, the Arab League, whoever) will not hold them accountable, the claim that Hizballah agreed to anything should not be allowed to proliferate. The simple fact is that they never agreed to lay down their arms. August 14, in Ha'aretz:
A meeting of the Lebanese government on the disarming of Hezbollah south of the Litani River was canceled on Sunday following an announcement by the Shi'ite organization that it was not willing to discuss the subject. Hezbollah informed the government of its stance through the speaker of the Lebanese Parliament, Nabih Beri, who serves as a conduit to the organization. Beri informed Prime Minister Fuad Siniora of Hezbollah's decision, and Siniora decided to cancel the meeting. This is the first time in weeks that a rift emerged in the official Lebanese stance. Officially, the government of Lebanon denied reports that any dispute has emerged. But in an interview to Al Jazeera yesterday, Joe Sarkiss, Lebanon's minister of tourism, said that "the army will not deploy in the south unless there are no arms in the south except those of a legitimate military force and UNIFIL." A Lebanese government source wrote on the Arab internet site Ilaf that "when it comes to crunch time, Hezbollah is refusing to give up its arms." The same source said that the Lebanese government had opted to cancel the meeting so that the disputes will not cause a rift between the Shi'ite ministers and the rest. Nor did the Lebanese government commit to disarm Hizballah per UN resolution 1559 (which long preceded this conflict). That is, agreeing to the idea that Hizballah should be disarmed is not the same thing as saying that the government of Lebanon will actually do anything to bring this about, as we all know it cannot. And, now that the French are backsliding on their troop commitment to the international force, all of this sky-pie about disarmament is fully transparent, or should be (even to the likes of Paul Surovell): the point was to obtain an Israeli pullback, that's all. But I'm sure you understand that I only take issue with claims that "Hizballah agreed" because we have seen this sort of thing countless times before. For instance, the Saudi peace plan advanced a year or two ago ostensibly was signed onto by "all" Arab countries in the region. This silliness has been repeated over and over; it certainly adds to the general propaganda picture. But the invisible details are that Syria did not agree to peace, exactly, but to some state of (official--what about Hizballah?) non-belligerence that explicitly ruled out normalization--and this only after Israel ceded all territory it seized in its defensive 1967 war. Or we've heard all about UN resolution 242, which supposedly requires Israel to withdraw from all territories seized in 1967, regardless of whether that withdrawal would be to secure borders. Only, 242 very clearly links withdrawal to security. Suicide bombings, rockets, and terror attacks on Israeli targets by Pal maximalists indicate that no agreement on withdrawal will produce security. (I am increasingly inclined to believe that this will be true for the long term as well as the immediate future.) In any case, 242 was written deliberately to avoid conveying the meaning that an Israeli withdrawal was required from all occupied territory. It does not, but most people don't know that because a bogus version of 242 has been recited like an incantation for years by press and advocacy hacks. Then there's the claim that the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist--which it did for western consumption, but in private, in Arabic, it disregarded while doing everything possible to undermine the concept among Palestinian youth. Or the more recent claim in the western press that Hamas, in its efforts to undermine a referendum platform written by its political rivals in Israeli jails, "implicitly" acknowledged Israel's right to exist--which its leaders went to great pains to say they had not in fact done, and which the press almost completely ignored. "People who target innocents shouldn't have guns in the first place, but if this disarmament agreement is the rubric that gets the world to that self-evident conclusion then let's take it." If I thought there were any hope of anything coming of that, I'd agree with you. But weapons will not be gotten out of the hands of terrorists who have not agreed to disarm, unless someone disarms them. No one can, except perhaps for the Israelis, at a cost neither Israel nor the UN is (at the moment) prepared to accept. You are suggesting that Hizzy, as part of the Lebanese government, is bound by its decisions. But we both know the reality is that Hizzy is not bound by anything, least of all the Leb gov't, as its members who oppose Hizb and/or Syria are constrained by the threat of civil war and/or assassination. |
   
sbenois
Supporter Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15610 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 9:19 pm: |
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Bobk, Irgun? The Stern Gang? 1001 references and counting. Very impressive. P.S. Yes, it's true! 1200 gets you a Menachem Begin bobble head doll. |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2690 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 9:24 pm: |
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1500 gets you the Arik Sharon in a Coma Hamsa keychain, complete with traveler's blessing. |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1483 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 9:48 pm: |
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J. Crohn- Thank you for your posting of Ed Luttwak's article. I agree Bob did not understand the piece or the premise. What is salient is that Ed presents that Hezbollah has not shown more than paramillitary effectivness,i.e. in face-to-face combat Hezbollah loses to the Israeli troops, time after time. Hezbollah's effectiveness in the past "war" has been entirely premised on bunkers built up over 6 years and anti-tank weaponry, to which the Israeli millitary will quickly adjust strategically and tactically. A good example for Bob is that in Operation Defensive Shield the Palestinians were suprised that Israeli forces did not go conventionally house to house, which would allow the Palis to generate more Israeli casualties, but actually cut through the interior of houses into the next house, reducing Israeli casualties and increasingly Palestinian terrorist casualties. On the "arab street" we disagree. The radicals have repeatedly tried to energize their involvement and support to revolt, including OBL, since 1967 and have been coming up empty. Bob K- When you have a track record advising the DOD, CIA, various US and foreign governments and millitaries, have been a desired professor,then I think you can have some standing to say Ed Luttwak is full of s#!@. Your comparisons to the Lehi and the Stern Gang are off the wall. Too much internet or a bad History Channel show? |
   
sbenois
Supporter Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 15611 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 9:58 pm: |
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Dearest JC, While that's true, let's make sure that Bobk fully understands the situation: If he gets to 1200 and chooses to go with the Menachem Begin Bobble Head Doll (limited edition, only 5000 numbered pieces were made), his reference count is reset to zero. If he chooses to go to 1500 and take the Sharon keychain, his counter will be reset as well. But let's keep in mind that that piece is far scarcer because it is actually a mid-70s era Francisco Franco In A Coma Keychain that has been dipped in white and blue paint with a yarmulka tastefully applied using a sharpie. Only 50 or 100 exist and it's mostly because the Franco keychains, given out to SNL cast members in 1975, were destroyed when the original cast moved on. Many think that this is the reason why the show has been in a coma for 26 years. It's like the curse of the bambino. I guess the big news here is the incredible gift Bobk can get if he hits the 3,000 mark: an unexploded molotov cocktail from the King David Hotel. So far, this prize has gone unclaimed. We're not sure if it's because the Franco/Begin prizes are so popular or if it's something else. |
   
J. Crohn
Supporter Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2695 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 10:52 pm: |
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"an unexploded molotov cocktail from the King David Hotel" Oooooooooooooh. FvF: "The radicals have repeatedly tried to energize their involvement and support to revolt, including OBL, since 1967 and have been coming up empty." What do you mean? Revolt has not been the objective since Mubarak effectively cracked down on the Brotherhood. Revolts that can't take place internally, and are not disarmed or extirpated, are exported; that's all. And this has happened--to great effect, really--via al Qaeda, via mujahideen in Afghanistan in the '80s, in the Balkans, and in the US. Keep in mind that, in acknowldeging what I consider to be a bleeding obvious fact, I am not claiming that accommodating radicals can make, or would ever have made, the slightest difference. But I don't think radicals have been coming up empty at all. If they had been, why would the US have bothered to intervene in the mideast and atttempt the spread of democracy there? It's not like we do such things without a compelling interest. (Full disclosure: I thought terrorism would become the wave of the future back during the Iranian hostage crisis. I was a little premature, but not much. What better way to undermine "world order" and create openings for the seizure of power than by holding foreign nations hostage to the demands of non-state actors?) |
   
Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12462 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 4:15 am: |
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JC, Sbenois: Ms. Crohn came up with the idea of non-state anti-terrorism. The organizations I mentioned basically did that and ended up, essentially, vigilante groups. With you guys things have to spelled out very clearly. It is interesting that the odds on favorite to become the next Prime Minister of Israel, in the middle of a war, found time to attend a glorification of the King David bombing a few weeks ago. Fact, there are a lot of pieces out there on the Lebanan "war". The head of IDF infrantry resigned and apologized. The head of logistics/supply apologized for not being ready for the war. As I said there are a lot of views on the subject out there.
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Bob K
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12468 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 7:58 am: |
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Also, please don't send me anything from Begin. Receiving a letter from him can be down right hazardous to your health. http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2054061,00.html |
   
Factvsfiction
Citizen Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1487 Registered: 4-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 1:46 pm: |
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J. Crohn- I have to say that your posts are one of the reasons that I still bother to come to MOL, considering the absolute rubbish and pap that is frequently bandied about by some posters as an intelligent discussion of political and world issues. I will respond to your post in the evening when I have more time. |
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