| Author | Message | ||
     Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1847 Registered: 9-2004  |
No way in a million years would Hezbollah show up at the Security Council. True. However the invitation should be extended to Syria & Iran, since they are doing the orchestrating and funding of Hezbollah. Hezbollah survives behind these two. Its their LIFE cord to survival. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5400 Registered: 9-2001  |
"world peace cannot be accomplished this way..." It sure turned Japan around pretty quick... How many more would have died on both sides, and how else can we truly learn if not but for our "mistake" ? FWIW, look again at that photo and in vision it as NYC, or Israel, because that is what will surly happen if we make the "mistake" I just spoke of of giving Iran or North Korea the opportunity to fully develop the nuclear bombs they seek... Since the end of the cold war, the United States has worked on the proliferation issues around the world in South Asia, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, and countries of the former Soviet Union, among others. The simple truth is we’re closer to another world disaster now than ever before. In 1998, India carried out five nuclear tests and became a nuclear weapon state. This immediately triggered a new round of the nuclear arms races in South Asia. India's archenemy, Pakistan, responded by setting off six announced nuclear tests and joined the NWS. The writing is on the wall. As a nation, if we don’t muster the strength and courage to stop Iran and North Korea in this decade, we as a nation won’t live to see the next one. Check out that photo again and think about your families’ future in the hands of those radicals who are telling us they want us dead. Fight them now, fight them there, or fight them here after they keep their promise! | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 1425 Registered: 2-2004 |
When the nuke goes off in NYC I'll remember my liberal friends fondly. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1849 Registered: 9-2004 |
Fight them now, fight them there, or fight them here after they keep their promise! Hmmm… so your saying the only way of achieving peace IS through VIOLENCE. I'll pass this on to the kiddies.  | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5403 Registered: 9-2001 |
Listen they're not as stupid as they look or sound... ...lots of luck. Your liberal friends will have all sold their properties for a big profit, moved to Florida or out west, and will leave us holding the bag... | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1850 Registered: 9-2004 |
Listen they're not as stupid as they look or sound... Who? The kiddies?   | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5404 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dear Phenixrising, I suggest you either give up your liberal ways, or start moving your kiddies out of the New York Metro area to safer ground... BTW, ten more of the people I speak of, you know the ones, those Muslims who are out here looking to blow us up. I would think twice about flying at the moment. So please keep your eyes open. These folks, some of the ones you liberals want to talk to are "Urgently" being sought here and in the U.K. so they can be brought to the UN for more diplomatic conversations... How many wake up calls do you libs need before you wake the FU??? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave  Post Number: 10431 Registered: 4-1997  |
WARNING: Dangerous Lebanese Man: link | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1851 Registered: 9-2004 |
@ Dave  I'm in tears! | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4658 Registered: 12-2001  |
The idea that we can unilaterally use force to prevent nuclear proliferation is a non-starter. It is not the basis for a sustainable policy. When we start doing this, then Russian and/or China will start to supply those nations on our "Axis of Evil" list with high-quality air defense systems that will eventually make it prohibitively expensive to conduct such attacks. Anyway, we can ill-afford to make the situation U.S. vs. the World. Interestingly enough, Bush's commitment to non-proliferation didn't stop him from doing a nuclear deal with India. India, you will recall is a nuclear proliferator. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1852 Registered: 9-2004 |
ajc, Wow! Where do suggest I move the kiddies to? I thought nowhere was safe? Montana… Utah or maybe hide in the old Breifus site in the village? Gosh! Help me ajc where shall we live? Do you think we can bring Toto with us? | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5407 Registered: 9-2001 |
"I'm in tears!" What's up with you guys? Let's get serious about this stuff. Every time you libs have no reply you either change the subject, post some stupid joke, or drop out of the conversation all together. Come on you pussies... Hey, where is the "Big Pussy" who started this damn thread in the first place?  | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1854 Registered: 9-2004 |
 "BIG PUSSY" BONPENSIERO | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1851 Registered: 10-2004  |
if the conversation were rational I would engage you PAL. But really your position is so far to the right you are off the page. Theres this scene in White Men Cant Jump where a big man, who just got hustled by Sidney Dean and Billy Hoyle, figures it all out and says "Im going to my car and get my gun and come back here and kill everybody". Thats your position right there. | ||
| Gordon Agress Citizen Username: Odd Post Number: 500 Registered: 8-2004 |
Some of the posters here ought to start the Neville Chamberlain Debating Society. Your first proposition could be "Resolved: This House will not fight for King or Country," though I doubt you could find anyone among you who could even frame the argument on the other side. | ||
| Phenixrising Citizen Username: Phenixrising Post Number: 1855 Registered: 9-2004 |
My point Hoops! I can't even take this guy seriously. His position is WAY-OFF RIGHT. Getting back to topic… I thought this article was interesting: Israel fights under shadow of Iraq By Jonathan Marcus BBC diplomatic correspondent The confrontation between Israel and Hezbollah is clearly unbalanced. Israel is a significant military power with sophisticated land, sea and air forces at its disposal. From the outset, Israel's military operations against Hezbollah have puzzled knowledgeable observers not just abroad but also in Israel itself. One of the Washington think-tank scene's most incisive strategic experts, Anthony Cordesman, expressed his puzzlement at Israel's overall goals, noting that their end results could be "just as strategically self-destructive as (Ariel) Sharon's invasion of Lebanon in 1982". http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4780847.stm | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4659 Registered: 12-2001 |
Sounds good. The Neville Chamberlain Debating Society can then have debating competition with the Imperial Germany (c.1914) The World Is Out To Get Us Debating Society. So for all of you people who want to bomb until the evildoers go away, how long will it take and how much will it cost and how large must our Armed Forces be? | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 3176 Registered: 12-2001  |
"Israel must be given 48 hours to with draw all its troops from Lebanon and agree to stop all bombing immediately. .. The financial onus of course would mostly fall on Israel for the costs to rebuild both countries. They'll actually be saving money by stopping the war now, rather than later on after another month of fighting or worst bombing of their own country..." Is this serious? This is like something someone crazy would say. It's very fully developed, but in a vacuum. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3714 Registered: 5-2004  |
Art, where to even start? On some things I actually do agree with you. A large international force is, IMHO, necessary between Israel and Lebanon. Given Paul's belief that the militant arm of Hezbollah will eventually be merged with the Lebanese army, I think it is unrealistic to think that Israel will ever agree to a Lebanese force as the sole (or even primary) buffer between themselves and Lebanon. However... How long will these forces be in place? Will it end up like the line between North and South Korea, where there are permanently stationed troops? More importantly, what will we do to strengthen the Lebanese government so that they are able to govern themselves with authority? I get the feeling that any government we support, particularly int he Arab world, will get a knee-jerk anti-US reaction. Our support could be considered the kiss of death for a fragile government. Hoops, actually, world peace was accomplished that way. Kind of ironic, huh? And to all, no one seems to have noticed that (I believe) sbenois' "important" post was the 911th post in a thread entitled "Deafening silence on MOL..." Oh, and last thing... to all who subscribe to the "fight them there so we don't have to fight them here" philosophy, note that all the foiled terrorism plots we've heard about have been due to intelligence and police action, not military action. And we're constantly told of how many plans are uncovered and stopped (though they can never tell us any details). If there are so many attempts that are stopped by our intelligence and police (FBI, etc.), fighting them there is not being very effective. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5408 Registered: 9-2001 |
TJ, as I said early on here... Russia and China need to be on board to put their troops on the boarder between Lebanon and Israel. We need to put their feet to the fire. Enough of all this BS, the time is right to embarrass them into it if necessary. The citizens of the Big Eight nations all want peace in the Mid-East and the rest of the world. The leaders of these countries are the problem, much more so than the average citizens on the street, I’m not talking about the Islamic nations now, we’re talking about the Big Eight Nations. America needs to talk to the people of these nations like never before. TV, Radio Free America, Newspapers, whatever it takes. The plan is super simple. All us so called Big Guys hold most of the cards. If we can all get together between these two countries, we can stop them in more ways than one. I say we wouldn't have to shoot one bullet, drop one bomb, or do anything more than show up together and let them know where the Bear Sh*ts in the Buckwheat... | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10433 Registered: 4-1997 |
The Chinese aren't crazy enough to get involved. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1852 Registered: 10-2004 |
Art, I actually think you have the beginnings of what it might take to get some sanity back into the world. A true multinational diplomacy and agreement backed up by a unified desire to enforce those agreements. Maybe you are more liberal then you know. Rastro - We could argue over whether dropping those bombs were actually necessary to end the war in the pacific but I will grant you that those bombs did end the war. However, I dont agree that they resulted in world peace. - not even American peace considering Korea and then Vietnam. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10435 Registered: 4-1997 |
It's really not a liberal position to want to stop a war so local economies can grow. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5409 Registered: 9-2001 |
"How long will these forces be in place? Will it end up like the line between North and South Korea, where there are permanently stationed troops?" OK Hoops, what ever it takes pal! With the military from all eight nations, all paying their own way, what does it matter how long they stay if it brings peace to the region? Listen up folks; you’re not looking at the big picture here. I’m not talking about us bad Americans standing between them in their beloved Holy Land. I’m talking about eight very large and diverse nations, all with very different governments, religions, and interests in what happens in the Mid-East as well as the rest of the world. This is what is different, and this is what is necessary to break the stalemate they have been unable to change in all these years. Again guys, I don’t generally consider myself a world class diplomat. I’m just a self-employed businessman for the past 47 years, and as a boss for that long I’m use to putting down the rules and having people follow them. In this case, and IMHO, I don’t see where the world has to spend a lot of time talking about all this. Here’s how it goes, and stop laughing guys. This is no joke! First we need John Bolton to present the simple one page plan to the entire UN. Then get everyone to agree that war is no good… I said stop laughing damn it! Next we don’t ask Israel or Lebanon whether it’s OK, we just tell them the Big Eight nations are coming over next week for a little visit, and we’ll be there forever if they don’t get their •••• together. That’s it!!! Does anyone really think that Iran is going to allow the Hezbollah to keep fighting with China, Russia, England, Germany, France, Italy, Japan, and the United States, plus100,000 troops all sitting on their boarder? Israel damn sure won’t mind a little peace in their country. This will come to be known as the Big Bad Bully Plan, or shorter, the WWROF initiative… End of story pal!!! Now let’s just get out their and make it happen….. Unless of course any of you have a better plan? | ||
| Gordon Agress Citizen Username: Odd Post Number: 502 Registered: 8-2004 |
My point here has been less "bombing will solve the problem" and more "you can't solve the problem without some bombing." I've mostly objected to simplistic formulations that "violence never solves anything". I do think the IDF attacks are justified and think they may be the right thing in terms of long-term strategy to secure a just peace, though I've heard credible commentators complain that the IDF is bungling the exeuction. I might be wrong about the current course of action, but I'm very sure that anyone who thinks the right course is obvious is wrong about the complexity of the situation. Whatever you think of it, it ain't Germany 1914: -- it doesn't involve a total mobilization; -- it isn't a "total war" effort"; -- it doesn't involve an attack on an innocent third party (indeed, it foregoes attacks on guilty third parties in Syria and Iran); and -- it isn't a war for short-term national survival, as the Israelis are moving before Hezbollah gets strong enough to make such grand threats. These nuances are probably lost on people who will argue that the current devastation in south Lebanon is analogous to Hiroshima. And I'm quite sure my debating society will crush the Chamberlains, because I at least know the arguments they would make, and they haven't bothered to figure out what mine would be. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5413 Registered: 9-2001 |
"...and they haven't bothered to figure out what mine would be." Either have I... What's your point, and more important than that, what's your solution to end the fighting pal? | ||
| Gordon Agress Citizen Username: Odd Post Number: 503 Registered: 8-2004 |
Beyond everyone in the world agreeing that shooting at innocents is wrong, and doing something about it, I really don't know what the solution is. Absent a solution, Israel's actions to limit other people's ability to attack it seem reasonable to me. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5414 Registered: 9-2001 |
Well, that's a fair enough answer Gordon, however, I believe we need to help everyone involved in this war to move beyond just that. You know, where there's a will there's a way. I'm sure the Hezbollah will get longer range missiles which will increase their ability to attack Israel before to long... What about my suggestion of building a "World Wide Ring of Fire" to protect Israel and Lebanon? Don't you agree Agress, (I like that) that having 100,000 troops from the Big Eight nations would greatly deter any further hostilities in the region? | ||
| Gordon Agress Citizen Username: Odd Post Number: 505 Registered: 8-2004 |
Sorry, no. They would just provide Hezbollah an additional 100,000 targets, unless they adopt a UNIFIL look-the-other-way approach. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5416 Registered: 9-2001 |
...no problem Gordon. Hey, I'm use to fighting my wars alone. I'll just have to keep searching until I can find the Yellow Brick Road! | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 15540 Registered: 10-2001  |
I am very impressed Rastro. You're wrong. But you're at least lukewarm. | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1374 Registered: 4-2006 |
Rastro- They would have many, many more plots, men, material, and financing available for them to attack us here if we were not fighting them there. Consider the size and nature of the Iraq insurgency, our porous borders, and crackpot civil libertarians. Interesting to see what the MOL field generals are coming up with in this thread, otherwise. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4660 Registered: 12-2001 |
Gordon, I agree with you that the answer lies somewhere between the FvF/JD approach of "kill 'em all and let God sort them out" and the kumbaya croud, Fvf, Your comments on the value of Iraq take faith to a whole new level. I believe that you truly would destroy freedom in order to save it. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12372 Registered: 5-2001 |
The best estimates I have read is that the number of Al-Qaeda operatives (so called foreign fighters) in Iraq is well under 1,000, most of whom don't speak English and would probably have real problems getting on a plane in London or in New York. These people aren't, as the Brits used to call them WOGs. I think you are dealing with two different branches, one paramilitary and one set up for clandestine infiltration of the US and allied nations. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4661 Registered: 12-2001 |
No, no, Bobk. Repeat after me. Iraq is sucking up the finite pool of evildoers who would otherwise be plying their trade in America. | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5711 Registered: 10-1999  |
There is just no support for any claim that there would be more plots against the U.S., if we were not fighting in Iraq. As pointed out by Bobk, the facts about who the insurgents are in Iraq, as compared to who these plotters are, show this. If you take the argument (that fighting in Iraq reduces our risks here) to its logical conclusion, then only perpetual war in Iraq will protect us from more plotters like the ones arrested in Britain and Pakistan this week. After all, if we ever do defeat the insurgents in Iraq once and for all, all the others will have to find some other way to attack us. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1856 Registered: 10-2004 |
sbenois - dont keep us in suspense. | ||
| Glock 17 Citizen Username: Glock17 Post Number: 1745 Registered: 7-2005  |
BACK TO THE TOPIC OF LEBANON/ISRAEL... I was watching CNN the other day and they had a Lebanese Red Cross worker for an interview. He was noticeably shaken from being up all night giving medical attention to civilians pulled out of a bombed apartment building. Upon being asked what types of injuries he had seen...he said mostly large scale burns....burns that were caused by some unkown chemicals in the bomb...he suspected them to be illegal chemicals...white phosphorus anyone? mhm...mhm..the CNN reporter quickly changed the subject...mhm...mhm | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 711 Registered: 2-2003 |
Gordon: Your comment: is a fake strawman that misrepresents what has been argued on this board. The criticism of Israeli military strategy in Lebanon has been case-specific -- not criticism of military action in general. I don't think there's a single poster on this thread who has said military action is never an option. Art: In principle, I agree with your idea for a big multinational force on the Israeli-Lebanese border. I think it's likely there will eventually be a much more limited version put in place. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 5417 Registered: 9-2001 |
"...eventually be a much more limited version put in place." I know Paul, and what a shame. Just another lost opportunity to show solidarity between the worlds most influential nations. Imagine the impact on these rogue governments with all eight of these nations working together, side by side, elbow to elbow, for world peace. What better place, and what better time than now to have them all agree to stand together... |
