Archive through August 14, 2006 Log Out | Lost Password? | Topics | Search | Who's Online
Contact | Register | My Profile | SO home | MOL home

M-SO Message Board » Soapbox: All Politics » Demonizing Islam » Archive through August 14, 2006 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove

Post Number: 868
Registered: 1-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Co-defendant Nichols also at the meetings in the Phillipines.
Two world travelers, not.
Just coincidence.

The islamist fascists want us to live in their perfect world, or else.
There is no alternative but to defeat them, before they kill us.

Have a nice, free world, day.

jd
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave


Post Number: 10442
Registered: 4-1997


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And apparently we need to count on Muslim community for their help.
I wonder if the credit for saving thousands of lives belongs with Bush and Blair or the Muslim community who foiled the plot? Who's grandstanding and who's the real hero?


LONDON, England (CNN) -- A British intelligence official has told CNN that the original information about a plot to down commercial jetliners in mid-Atlantic with explosives came from a tip from the Muslim community in Britain.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/11/terror.plot/index.html
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro


Post Number: 3716
Registered: 5-2004


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bob, I doubt anyone has the misimpression that Israel, or any nation, is perfect. What people object to is equating Israel's actions (not just in Lebanon, but in the OT as well) to those of Arab terrorists.

Just about any nation fighting for it's freedom (or fighting to establish itself) has committed what, in hindsight, are acts of terrorism. Do you doubt that during our own revolution, acts of barbarism (what we would now call terrorism) occurred? Do you think our massacring of Native Americans for their land was terrorism? Was it right? Does it revoke our ability to take a moral stance on anything? If we were being attacked by native American terrorists, would you excuse their actions similarly? Would you say we are not a perfect nation, and claim people believe we are?

My point is not to say it was or was not right for new Americans to do what they did. I'm saying this happens everywhere. But we only hear complaints about it (or are reminded of it historically) when there are Jews involved.

As for Israel thinking about the King David Hotel (thanks for using the right name, finally) do you really care? Do you want Israelis to wring their hands about something that happened 60 years ago? Do we wring our hands about something that happened 5 years ago? To me, the fact that Norway still debates this says more about them than Israel's not debating the KDH incident says about Israel.

I truly cannot find anything in a single post you've made to support your claim that you "support Israel strongly, warts and all."
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn

Post Number: 4664
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dave,

You can't blame Bush for that tip from a Muslim. He is doing everything in his power to alienate all Muslims, including those other disposed to like us.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn

Post Number: 2674
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"During WWII the Norwegian underground..."

I am aware of the incident.

"They, as a nation, still debate if this was the correct thing to do or not."

They, as a nation, have had the luxury of peace for the last sixty years. Israel has not, and yet Israel has engaged in just as much debate. I don't know why you are unaware of this.

"I don't think Israel ever even thinks about the King David attack or the murder of Count Bernadotte for that matter."

Well, I don't know what to say except that if you believe this, you must pay no attention at all to Israeli politics, academic debate, or culture. But I don't know. Are you expecting that at the moment, while Hizballah rockets are raining down at random, the international community is gorging on a daily diet of "disproportionate" civilian casualties courtesy of al Manar (without even questioning for a moment whether the Lebanese government has any reliable idea of how many of the dead were actually civilians), and the IDF is about to launch a ground invasion sure to result in heavy Israeli casualties, you think now is the time to engage in another Israeli debate about whether bombing the King David Hotel was a good idea?

"The whole purpose of my posts here are simply to point out that Israel is not a perfect country and would probably be a better one if they recognized this."

Again, I'm flabbergasted that anyone who considers himself informed by "facts" would utter such a thing.

The Israeli left, which until Arafat's rejection at camp David and the launching of the second intifada, held sway over a majority of Israeli public opinion, has actively worked to undermine Israeli settlement policy in the WB and Gaza, has defended the rights of Palestinians, and has been ENORMOUSLY critical of its own country, particularly with regard to the issue of settlements and the first invasion of Lebanon, not to mention government corruption and the rights of women. We do not have, in America, a newspaper that has been so reliably anti-government, so anti "perfect country", as Haaretz has been for decades.

Moreover, what you know about Deir Yassin is largely due to the efforts of a highly respected Israeli historian named Benny Morris, who cut through Israeli government lies and ommissions, as well as those of the Arabs, to expose to the world that the pre-state Zionists did commit atrocities and were not blameless little lambs. Morris and his revisionist colleagues and journalists--people like Gershom Gorenberg, Anita Shapira, and many others, or non-Israeli colleagues like the British Jew Ilan Pappe--were at first reviled, but later came to dominate Israeli academic discourse.

"Certainly, the view of many Americans supports the perfect country view."

You were not addressing those Americans here.

"I support Israel strongly, warts and all. But they do do a good makeup job on the warts."

That's sort of like criticizing a prostitute menaced by a serial-killing clown in stage pancake for being "overly made up."

Given that your audience on MOL makes no distinction between the moral rectitude of prostitutes and serial-killing clowns, I really don't think you can argue that your claim that Arabs were taught terrorism by the Jews gets at any kind of undiscussed deeper truth.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops

Post Number: 1860
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Quote:

The Israeli left, which until Arafat's rejection at camp David and the launching of the second intifada, held sway over a majority of Israeli public opinion, has actively worked to undermine Israeli settlement policy in the WB and Gaza, has defended the rights of Palestinians, and has been ENORMOUSLY critical of its own country, particularly with regard to the issue of settlements and the first invasion of Lebanon, not to mention government corruption and the rights of women.




they must be anti-semites.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn

Post Number: 2675
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I wonder if the credit for saving thousands of lives belongs with Bush and Blair or the Muslim community who foiled the plot? Who's grandstanding and who's the real hero?"

Dear Moderator likes things simple. There can only ever be one "real hero."
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave


Post Number: 10444
Registered: 4-1997


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm just saying there's a disproportionately low amount of credit going to the Muslim population.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey

Post Number: 2340
Registered: 8-2003


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

should it also be pointed out that the plot wasn't foiled by indisciminate wiretapping?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

tom
Citizen
Username: Tom

Post Number: 5461
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This kind of thinking, thinking that Muslims have to be discriminated against because the terrorists are Muslims, has a very bad history. Once you win your argument about Muslims, do you then proceed to African-Americans? Since they make up an exceptionally large proportion of the prison population, logically you need to go after that population as well.

We had an au pair from Turkey live with us for three years. Several of her friends and family came to visit during that time, and without exception every one of these Muslims was a delightful person. Besides being smart, articulate, friendly and generous, I hate to even have to say it but they are more secular than your average American.

Nobody needs to "allow them to see that the openess and equality of our society is something to be admired, valued, and defended" because they already do, and in fact could tell many of us a thing or two about it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider


Post Number: 15279
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joel, I agree we should know and understand our enemies. I agree we should be prepared for whatever they are likely to do, if that's what you're saying. What defeat are you hoping for? What form would it take?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk

Post Number: 12376
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JC, even in the middle of a war there was a celecbration of the King David Hotel bombing a week or so ago. It's gotta be true, I read it here on MOL!!

As a personal opinion, I don't think we will make much progress against the Moslem extremists until more moderate Moslems decide to drop a dime on them. It appears that this is beginning to happen, but not enough to be honest.

Anyone else catch the article earlier in the week about the Yemini-American Marines and their communities reaction to them? When we set up the concentration camps, do they have to be interned?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn

Post Number: 2677
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I'm just saying there's a disproportionately low amount of credit going to the Muslim population."

Yeah, I suppose the Muslims who tipped off Scotland Yard are extremely eager to have a great deal of attention called to them.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave


Post Number: 10454
Registered: 4-1997


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 1:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL. It's kind of obvious no one is going to credit Mohammed ____ living at 23 Oxford St, flat 4, Uxbridge, GB was the guy who foiled the plot.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove

Post Number: 869
Registered: 1-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


This story is from our news.com.au network Source: Reuters
Tourist stabbed to death in Jerusalem
From correspondents in Jerusalem
August 11, 2006
AN Arab assailant stabbed to death a European tourist in Jerusalem's Old City today, Israeli police said.

Italian media quoted the Rome foreign ministry as saying the victim was a 25-year-old Italian, Angelo Frammartino, and that he had travelled to Israel last week to do volunteer work.

"An Arab youth approached a group of three or four tourists from behind and stabbed one man before fleeing," a police spokesman said. "He died of his wounds."

The spokesman declined to disclose the man's nationality, saying only that he was a European and that police believed he was likely the victim of a "terrorist attack".

»
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider


Post Number: 15282
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joel, does that story make a point you feel you haven't made before?

Take a stab at my latest questions to you.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave


Post Number: 10461
Registered: 4-1997


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Quote:

Another American reporter described the following incident in Gaza in June 2001: "It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker. 'Come on, dogs,' the voice booms in Arabic. 'Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!' I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: 'Son of a bitch!' 'Son of a whore!' 'Your mother's !' The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos. Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered--death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo--but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport." ["A Gaza Diary: Scenes from the Palestinian Uprising," by Chris Hedges, Harper's magazine, October 2001


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction

Post Number: 1375
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dave-

When was that published in the Times? Or elsewhere?

Suprised the Israeli soldiers then did not take the childrens' bodies to grind them up and make matzos, as the Protocols of The Elders of Zion says they do.

The Israeli army trains its' soldiers in what is termed " to'har ha'neshek"- purity of arms, which is to avoid civilian casualties and deaths. Many Israeli soldiers have died in upholding this doctrine, and I believe former millitary man Ralph Peters, who has been reporting on the conflict on site, wrote about how impressed he was with the Israeli army's restraint and concern for avoiding civilian casualties.

It's amusing to me that while we are talking about demonizing islam, few seem to ever want to acknowledge or discuss latent anti-semitism as having an impact on someone's views on Israel.

Do posters ever think that someone growing up with the impression or belief that " the Jews killed Jesus" would not have some sort of an effect?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction

Post Number: 1376
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bob K-

Depends on how you define "facts" and the sources that you use for them.

tom-

Turks are not arabs. Turks ruled the arabs, and some of my Turkish friends have a none too positive opinion of them. Turkey under Attaturk, the founder of modern Turkey rejected religious islam as a state model. Men had to shave their beards and women could not wear a chador. Turkey also have a millitary relationship with Israel. But I am glad that your Turkish au pair gives you special insight into islam.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove

Post Number: 870
Registered: 1-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From Hugh Hewitt, who fashions himself a neo-conservative.

SO HOW WILL THE WAR END? With lots of dead Jihadists. Just like World War II ended with lots of dead Nazis and imperialist troops of Japan. There were so many dead, the rest lost their will to fight on. Only when they realize their destruction is imminent (and accomplished to a great degree) will there be peace.

Until the Jihadists realize they can’t win, they will continue to fight. Every instance of Western weakness succors them. Every U.N. resolution, European cry for diplomacy and academic case for moral equivalency feeds their notion that their victory is inevitable.

Getting to victory will be an ugly thing. Our weapons will kill innocents, just as they did in Nagasaki and Dresden. And we will suffer our own losses. It’s becoming increasingly apparent that America will have to suffer a grievous loss before unshackling its own might. And our first grievous loss will not be our last. Like any global conflagration, this one will be full of horrors, horrors that most refuse to contemplate.

SO WHAT’S THE ALTERNATIVE? Graham Allison, Joe Nye and other Kennedy School types will tell you that we can talk Radical Islamists out of this whole crazy Jihad thing with just some judicious use of our “soft power.” We can win hearts and minds, they argue, if we just try a little tenderness.

Their argument, however, betrays a spectacular ignorance regarding Jihad philosophy . There’s nothing new going on here, nothing that’s not 14 centuries old. The only difference is that a trillion dollars in petro-dollars has given the forces of Jihad power and reach that even the Prophet never imagined. To think we can jawbone our way out of this is dangerously wishful thinking.

It’s an ugly situation. It’s a miserable reality. But denying it or creating elegant professorial sophistries won’t make it vanish.

We can win and we will win, but doing so will be neither painless, bloodless or easy.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove

Post Number: 871
Registered: 1-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tom:

Said by another, but, my answer.

jd
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

tom
Citizen
Username: Tom

Post Number: 5463
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FvF, quite so; however the title of this thread is not "Demonizing Arabs," it's "Demonizing Islam." And considering the apparent interchangeability of the words "muslim" and "arab," it's obviously too easy for people to lump them all together.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction

Post Number: 1382
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

tom-

That was Tjohn's choice of wording. I believe we are talking about islam as practiced by arabs here. But your use of a Turkish au pair as support of your view on islam must be heavily qualified.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave


Post Number: 10462
Registered: 4-1997


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fvf,

Here's a bio on Chris Hedges. Maybe you can get in touch with him directly with your inane points.


Quote:

Hedges was part of the New York Times team that won the 2002 Pulitzer Prize for the paper's coverage of global terrorism and he received the 2002 Amnesty International Global Award for Human Rights Journalism. He published his most recent book, "Losing Moses on the Freeway: The 10 Commandments in America" in June 2005. The book, inspired by the Polish filmmaker Krysztof Kieslowski's series The Decalogue, follows people, including the author, whose lives have been consumed by one of the violations or issues raised by a commandment. The Christian Century said of the book: "Far from the grandstanding around stone tablets in front of an Alabama courthouse comes Losing Moses on the Freeway, a refreshing reflection on the ten great Mosaic laws that is muted yet monumental in its own right." Hedges is also the author of "What Every Person Should Know About War," a book he worked on with several combat veterans. Robert Pinsky, reviewing this book in The New York Times, called the book "...arresting, peculiar" and "significant." "Neither jingoistic nor pacifist," Pinsky wrote, "the book is about the moral authority of information, as it applies to the present and future nature of war." Hedges will publish a book on the Christian right, a movement which he has criticized, with The Free Press in January 2007.

Hedges, who speaks Arabic and spent seven years in the Middle East, most of them as the Middle East Bureau Chief for The New York Times, was an early and vocal critic of the plan to invade and occupy Iraq. He questioned the rationale for war by the Bush administration and was often critical of the early press coverage, calling it "shameful cheerleading." Hedges delivered a 2003 Commencement address at Rockford College in Rockford, Ill. shortly after President Bush landed with great fanfare on an aircraft carrier in which he told the graduating class "we are embarking on an occupation that, if history is any guide, will be as damaging to our souls as it will be to our prestige, power and security." He added: "This is a war of liberation in Iraq, but it is a war of liberation by Iraqis from American occupation." Hedges raised the ire of several hundred members of the audiance who booed and jeered his talk. His microphone was cut twice and two young men rushed the stage to try and prevent him from speaking. Hedges had to cut short his address and was escorted off campus by security officials before the ceremony was over. His address made national news and saw numerous attacks against him by right-wing pundits including an editorial in The Wall Street Journal denouncing Hedges for his anti-war stance. The New York Times issued Hedges a formal reprimand after the address for "public remarks that could undermine public trust in the paper's impartiality." Hedges left the paper not long after this incident to write books and teach.

Hedges, who is not a pacifist and supports humanitarian interventions, such as those in Bosnia and Kosovo designed to stop campaigns of genocide, nevertheless describes war as "the most potent narcotic invented by humankind." He argues that violence has a dark fascination, something the Bible calls "the lust of the eye." He writes that war is the pornography of violence, that "it has a dark beauty, filled with the monstrous and the grotesque." "War," he writes, "gives us a distorted sense of self. It gives us meaning. It creates a feeling of comradeship that obliterates our alienation and makes us feel, for perhaps the first time in our lives, that we belong." War, Hedges wrote, exposes the capacity for evil that lurks not far below the surface within all of us. We are all culpable. War is about worshipping the death instinct, which Hedges, quoting Freud, refers to as Thanatos, the Greek God of death. War, he argues, starts out looking and feling like love, the chief emotion war destroys, leads to the annihilation of the other and finally to self-annihilation. War, he writes, is as close as we come to attaining a state of almost pure sin with its goals of hatred and destruction. His book draws heavily from his own experience and the literature of combat from Homer to Michael Herr.

Hedges, strongly influenced by writers such as George Orwell, Samuel Johnson, Karl Popper, Hannah Arendt, Elias Canetti and the theologian Reinhold Niebuhr, began his career reporting on the conflict in El Salvador in 1983. He went to Latin America, ruled at the time by a series of despotic military regimes, following seminary because, as he said, "it was as close as my generation could come to fighting fascism." Following six years in Latin America he took time off to study Arabic and then went to Jerusalem and later Cairo. He left the Middle East in 1995 for Sarajevo to cover the war in Bosnia and Kosovo and later joined the investigative team of The New York Times where he was based in Paris.

"War and conflict have marked most of adult life," he writes in "War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning." "I began covering insurgenices in El Salvador, where I spent five years, then on to Guatemala and Nicaragua and Colombia, through the first intifada in the West Bank and Gaza, the civil war in the Sudan and Yemen, the uprisings in Algeria and the Punjab, the fall of the Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu, the Gulf War, the Kurdish rebellion in southeast Turkey and northern Iraq, the war in Bosnia, and finally Kosovo. I have been in ambushes on despolate streteches of Central American roads, shot at in the marshes of southern Iraq, imprisoned in the Sudan, beaten by Saudi military police, deported from Libya and Iran, captured and held for a week by the Iraqi Republican Guard during the Shiite rebellion following the Gulf War, strafed by Russian Mig-21s in Bosnia, fired upon by Serb snipers, and shelled for days in Sarajevo with deafening rounds of heavy artillery that threw out thousands of deadly bits of iron fragments. I have seen too much of violent death. I have tasted too much of my own fear. I have painful memories that lie buried and untouched most of the time. It is never easy when they surface."

Hedges, the son of a Presbyterian minister, has a B.A. in English Literature from Colgate University and a Master of Divinity from Harvard University. He was a Nieman Fellow at Harvard during the academic year of 1998-1999. He has a strong grounding in the classics and knows Greek and Latin, as well as Arabic, French and Spanish. He currently writes for numerous publications including Foreign Affairs, Harper's magazine, The New York Review of Books, Granta and Mother Jones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction

Post Number: 1386
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dave-

It is "inane" to ask where the confirming article about Israeli soliders deliberatly luring children to kill them appeared?

I want to read the article.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave


Post Number: 10463
Registered: 4-1997


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's in Harpers, but they keep archives offline.

http://www.harpers.org/AwardsWonByHarpers.html


Quote:

Amnesty International Media Award

Winner, Global Award for Human Rights Journalism, for “A Gaza Diary” by Chris Hedges (October 2001)




ps. I'd like it to be not true, as well, or at least, a very isolated incident.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction

Post Number: 1387
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 7:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dave-

Okay, thanks.

His being an 'Amnesty International" award winner tells me a lot right off the bat.

And who are the " racists on MOL"?

Those are strong words that may support self-banning.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave


Post Number: 10464
Registered: 4-1997


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 7:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those who read it and say, "that's me!"
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider


Post Number: 15286
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

factvsfiction, the fact that Turks don't give a complete picture of Muslims is a good reason to believe that Arabs don't, either. Remember the blind men and the elephant.

Joel, thank you for that response. I agree that soft power alone won't do the trick any more than talking nicely to a mugger who is pointing his gun at my face will. However, I hope that one day we can see that foreigners are more valuable to us as friends than as enemies. I'm not saying we should trust them farther than we can throw them, but I don't think battle is the answer to everything. When you're a carpenter, the whole world looks like a bed of nails, or something like that.

Let me ask you something else. In the 1980's, who did you think was the west's biggest enemy?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction

Post Number: 1416
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tom Reingold-

I think you need to ask muslims who you have a strong relationship and friendship with whether the the radical islamists are technically correct in their interpretation. It bears witnessing that the Turkish approach to islam has yielded better societal and economic performance, subject to available oil deposits, than the arab one.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider


Post Number: 15293
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 10:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Correct interpretation" is an oxymoron. Certainly you and I can agree that we prefer the Turkish results, but there's no such thing as a correct opinion.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc

Post Number: 5800
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 11:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"..but there's no such thing as a correct opinion."

That's your opinion, I guess.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider


Post Number: 15294
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 5:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yup, and it's correct!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove

Post Number: 877
Registered: 1-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 9:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The devil's in the details, from Captainsquartersblog, today.

BBC: Lebanon Refuses To Disarm Hezbollah

I guess that crying on television and writing op-eds about the desperate hope for peace cannot motivate Fuad Siniora and his Cabinet to take the concrete action that would deliver it. The BBC reports that the Siniora government has rejected the UN demand to disarm Hezbollah, and the terrorist group has blocked the deployment of the Lebanese Army to the south:

Crucial Lebanese cabinet talks on disarming Hezbollah fighters in southern Lebanon under a UN-brokered ceasefire have been put off.

A truce between Israel and Hezbollah is due to come into force at 0500 GMT.

The postponement, amid reported divisions, seriously complicates the establishment of a stable ceasefire, the BBC's Nick Childs in Beirut says. ...

[T]he issue of Hezbollah's disarmament and its military presence in southern Lebanon continues to cause major tensions within the fragile government, our correspondent reports.

He says that without a meeting and an agreed plan, it seems that the deployment of 15,000 Lebanese army troops to the south is unlikely to go ahead.

As expected, Nasrallah and Siniora have let Israel off the hook -- and provided the political cover for further military action against both. If Lebanon refuses to abide by the terms of the cease-fire, expect the UN Security Council to wash its hands of the issue.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn

Post Number: 4683
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The UN Security Council doesn't have the option to wash their hands of the issue. The longer the fighting goes on, the more chance there is for the fighting to spread. I don't know of anybody except for the grim reaper and terrorists who will benefit for an expansion of the fighting.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove

Post Number: 881
Registered: 1-2006
Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 1:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How do you demonize this:


Date Country City Killed Injured Description
8/14/06 Iraq Mosul 6 1 Muslim gunmen kill six civilians in three separate attacks.
8/13/06 Israel Shlomi 1 21 Hezbollah fires rockets into an Israeli neighborhood, killing a 70-year-old man in his home.
8/13/06 Iraq Baghdad 62 148 Sunni bombers massacre Shiites in a series of neighborhood bombings, racking up over sixty dead and one-hundred and fifty injured.
8/13/06 Thailand Narathiwat 2 12 Islamic radicals kill a shopowner to draw police, then detonate a bomb, killing an officer and injuring twelve people.
8/13/06 Philippines Jolo 3 0 Abu Sayyaf kidnappers stab a businesswoman to death and behead her son after taking them captive. A policeman trying to rescue them is killed as well.
8/12/06 Thailand Yala 1 0 A circus owner is killed by two Muslim terrorists posing as customers.
8/12/06 India Drogian 2 0 Two elderly people are shot to death in their homes by Islamic terrorists.
8/12/06 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A policeman is gunned down by Muslim militants while on patrol.
8/12/06 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Islamists shoot a policeman in the back as he is leaving his house.
8/12/06 Iraq Mosul 12 4 Jihadis murder a dozen Iraqi civilians in a series of bombing and shooting attacks.

An occasional post from the death watch on thereligionofpeace.com
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider


Post Number: 15301
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 1:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those are, to be sure, demonic acts. Do Muslims have a corner on the bad acts market?

Even if you could show that most of the bad acts are committed by Muslims, I don't think you could show that most Muslims commit bad acts. Just because all dogs have two ears and I also have two ears doesn't prove I'm a dog.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave


Post Number: 10487
Registered: 4-1997


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 1:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"circus owner is killed by two Muslim terrorists"

"circus owner" +killed
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider


Post Number: 15302
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 1:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dave, it doesn't matter if Joel is making this up. Whether his story is fact or fiction, the logical error makes it wrong either way.

But thanks for the investigative work. It is interesting!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave


Post Number: 10488
Registered: 4-1997


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 1:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just wanted to know what kind of a sick person would kill a circus owner.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | User List | Help/Instructions | Credits Administration