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Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 732
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 6:06 pm: | 
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I urge those who have suggested that criticism of Israeli government policy implies that one is "anti-semitic" or "anti-Israel" to keep this photo in mind, the next time that thought occurs to you.
Quote:Israeli reserve soldier Aryeh Vider signs a petition near the Prime Ministerīs office calling for a judicial commission of inquiry into the war in Lebanon, Aug. 21.
http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=16979&intcategoryid=1
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Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1478
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 6:20 pm: |
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They are criticising the fact that the Israeli government did not prosecute the war effectively.
Duh.
Notice how the Lebanese are afraid to do similiar petitions complaining that Hezbollah having an independent army and seizing 2 Israeli soldiers is against the soverignty of Lebanon.
Yet another sad, intellectually muddled, liberal-progressive thread on MOL. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4726
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 6:22 pm: |
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Fiction again confused. Surovell merely noting that criticism of policies of Israeli government does not amount to anti-Semitism. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1480
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 6:29 pm: |
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tjohn again posting his anti-Israel agenda and confused thinking.
Israeli Jewish soldiers crticising Israeli Jewish politicians conduct of the war, is anti-semitism, how?
tjohn has called Israel a western colony, then with essentially no right to exist in the Middle East.
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tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4728
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 6:32 pm: |
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Fiction continuing to display confusing. Surovell noting that criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism. Tjohn attempting, to no avail, to clarify this for Fiction. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5607
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 7:11 pm: |
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If you were criticizing the conduct of the Iraq war, it'd be "why do you hate America?" You're criticizing the conduct of the Israel/Hezbollah war so it's "why do you hate Jews?"
Quote:TJ: Surovell merely noting that criticism of policies of Israeli government does not amount to anti-Semitism.
FVF: Israeli Jewish soldiers crticising Israeli Jewish politicians conduct of the war, is anti-semitism, how?
The only conclusion I can draw from this is that there's a double standard, and we gentiles are to keep our mouths shut and just nod in agreement. Well I could also draw the conclusion that FvF has reading-comprehension issues, but I won't go there. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1482
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 9:25 pm: |
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tom-
There is a difference between a simplistic and moronic contra interpretation and reality.
The facts here are that those who served and were asked potentially give their lives oppose the failure of the government to do what was needed to defeat Hezbollah if it decided to prosecute a war. It is their country, not yours.
When you and tjohn decide to become IDF reservists, although I think both you guys are too old and long in the tooth, then you too can sign a petition. They have to live with what happens in the country, the armchair generals and Middle East no-nothings here don't.
If you want, I can get some Israelis to post on this site to attack your ideas on american politics and international actions. You better not claim then that they are anti-american by your standard.
I really loved the fact that all the "humanists" on this site wouldn't touch the issue of anti-Israel views arising from latent anti-semitism. To them such a thing does not exist. Quelle credibility? |
J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2691
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 9:29 pm: |
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"Criticism of Israeli war policy engulfs Israel!" he cried, with barely concealed mirth. "You see? That means I am not an antisemite!"
He took a satisfied bite from his croissant and, gazing into the garden, mentally counted up his Jewish acquaintances, just to be sure. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1485
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 10:01 pm: |
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In a time of crisis one might also ask:
What Would Mel Gibson Do ( WWMGD ) ?
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J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2694
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 10:25 pm: |
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"If you were criticizing the conduct of the Iraq war, it'd be "why do you hate America?""
Borax. No one who criticises the conduct of the war is ever labelled anti-American. Anti-Bush, yes. But to criticise the conduct of a war one wishes had been fought more effectively...this does not presuppose that everything the US does must be malicious or evil.
I supported the aims of the Iraq war. I don't at all like the way it was prosecuted, and in fact I don't like the Bush administration (although I must grudgingly concede one or two things to the Shrub, neither having anything to do with domestic policy). I have never been labelled "anti-American" by anyone that I know of. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4730
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 10:40 pm: |
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"No one who criticises the conduct of the war is ever labelled anti-American."
There has certainly been plenty of innuendo to that effect. Some people take rather literally the idea that if you are not for us, you are against us. |
J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2696
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 10:57 pm: |
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"There has certainly been plenty of innuendo to that effect."
Oh? Show me some that might apply to someone with views such as mine.
"Some people take rather literally the idea that if you are not for us, you are against us."
Well maybe I'm not troubled by such people because I consider them marginal and incredibly insignificant.
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J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2697
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 11:00 pm: |
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Again, Tjohn, exactly who labels those of us who object to the conduct of the war as America-haters? |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4732
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 11:08 pm: |
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J. Crohn,
Perhaps you're right and only a certain extreme fringe really believes that opponents of the invasion and occupation of Iraq hate America. It's been a quarter century since I last spent a lot of time with people who take it quite literally when people such as President Bush say, "if you're not for us, you're against us". |
kathleen
Citizen
Username: Symbolic
Post Number: 702
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 11:57 pm: |
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Somehow I don't think Stephen Colbert would get the laughs he does if it were only some "certain extreme fringe" element who'd been equating opposition to the war in Iraq with being anti-American.
So JCrohn doesn't eat croissants? She doesn't gaze into her garden? She isn't constantly counting up (and flaunting) her Jewish acquaintances? Was there a time when she hasn't been constantly congratulating herself for something or other, not least of which is having all politically correct views? True, little mirth, concealed or otherwise, but surely insufficiently disguised bile counts for something.
I've yet to see the sterile idea that didn't draw JCrohn to it like a moth to a flame. Calling critics of Israeil policy anti-Semites in order to intimidate or even insult just isn't going to cut it anymore. Too many people know it isn't true.
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Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7739
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 6:38 am: |
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She was calling you an anti-semite, not Israeli war critics. |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 733
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 7:27 am: |
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Facts: Is it forbidden to criticize as an ineffective military strategy the bombing of the Lebanese civilian infrastructure?
J Crohn: Is it forbidden to challenge the conduct of the war by arguing that bombing the Lebanese civilian infrastructure is an ineffective military strategy?
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Gordon Agress
Citizen
Username: Odd
Post Number: 531
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 7:45 am: |
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"All criticism of Israel is anti-semitic" is as stupid as "no criticism of Israel is anti-semitic."
The smart people aren't saying either of those things.
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themp
Supporter
Username: Themp
Post Number: 3200
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 10:16 am: |
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"Some of the harshest criticism has come from military reservists, whose voices carry great weight in Israeli society. The veterans protesting in Jerusalem on Tuesday evening demanded that Olmert, his defense minister and the army's chief of staff step down.
The demonstrators accused the three of rushing into full-scale armed conflict without having adequately laid the military groundwork, and then of dithering over the war's objectives and how to realize them. That resulted in confusing and sometimes needlessly perilous orders on the ground, they said."
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-israel23aug23,0,1506520.stor y?coll=la-home-headlines
I guess that's what accountability looks like. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3746
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 10:24 am: |
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Frikkin' Israeli military reservists are clearly all a bunch of rotten anti-Semites!! They obviously hate Israel. And I heard that they torture puppies for fun. |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 931
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 4:29 pm: |
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Paul:
Insufficient bombing of the "civilian infrastructure" during war with an enemy who attacks from within that infrastructure is inexcusable.
Wage war to win.
Prepare for peace, but win the war.
jd |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 1492
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 4:55 pm: |
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notehead- post # 3746
From the depths of your intellect and comprehension?
And you think I am the one deserving a bucket of elephant dung?
And yes dude, I expect you to repeat your stellar intellectual put down that I should " fondle myself" . |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 12482
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 8:10 am: |
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Here is a good piece from the Jersualem Post, a center-right paper from what I can figure out.
I am struck by the similarities to our situation in Iraq, with budget cuts, training cycle reductions, supply issues and using tankers as infantry.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525926212&pagename=JPost%2FJPArti cle%2FShowFull |
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