| Author | Message | ||
     Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2355 Registered: 8-2003  |
Dave, are you saying you know for a fact that the tiger wasn't in fact Muslim? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 883 Registered: 1-2006 |
Dave: More facts to deny are reported here, and are about the Beslan elementary school takeover, a much larger scale takeover of a public school than perpetrated by Arafat's peace loving Muslim terrorists. These terrorists, including the black chador clad women, really know how to kill children. The School By C.J. Chivers June 2006, Volume 145, Issue 6 Photograph by Dmitry Beliakov page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | On the first day of school in 2004, a Chechen terrorist group struck the Russian town of Beslan. Targeting children, they took more than eleven hundred hostages. The attack represented a horrifying innovation in human brutality. Here, an extraordinary accounting of the experience of terror in the age of terrorism. SEPTEMBER 1. AFTERNOON. THE GYM. Kazbek Misikov stared at the bomb hanging above his family. It was a simple device, a plastic bucket packed with explosive paste, nails, and small metal balls. It weighed perhaps eight pounds. The existence of this bomb had become a central focus of his life. If it exploded, Kazbek knew, it would blast shrapnel into the heads of his wife and two sons, and into him as well, killing them all. Throughout the day he had memorized the bomb, down to the blue electrical wire linking it to the network of explosives the terrorists had strung around them hours before. Now his eyes wandered, panning the crowd of more than eleven hundred hostages who had been seized in the morning outside the school. The majority were children, crouched with their parents and teachers on the basketball court. The temperature had risen with the passing hours, and their impromptu jail had become fetid and stinking with urine and fear. Many children had undressed. Sweat ran down their bare backs. His eyes settled on his captors. Most of the terrorists had left the gym for defensive positions in the main school building, leaving behind a handful of men in athletic suits or camouflage pants. These were their guards. They wore ammunition vests and slung Kalashnikov rifles. A few were hidden behind ski masks, but as the temperature had risen, most had removed them, revealing faces. They were young. Some had the bearing of experienced fighters. Others seemed like semiliterate thugs, the sort of criminal that had radiated from Chechnya and Russia's North Caucasus during a decade of war. Two were women wearing explosive belts. Kazbek studied the group, committing to memory their weapons, their behavior, their relations to one another, and the configuration of their bombs. A diagram of their handiwork had formed in his head, an intricate map that existed nowhere else. With it was a mental blueprint of the school, in which he had studied as a boy. This was useful information, if he could share it, and Kazbek thought of fleeing, hoping he might give the Special Forces gathering outside a description of the bombs and defenses. Already Kazbek assumed this siege would end in a fight, and he knew that when Russia's soldiers rushed these rooms, their attack would be overpowering and imprecise. He knew this because he once was a Russian soldier himself. He evaluated the options. How does my family get out? Escape? Passivity? Resistance? His wife, Irina Dzutseva, and their sons, Batraz, fifteen, and Atsamaz, seven, were beside him. Kazbek was a tall man with neat dark hair and a mustache, and Batraz, who was growing tall as well, had the hint of a beard. Kazbek had made him remove his shirt, exposing a boyish frame. He hoped this would convince the terrorists that, unlike his father, Batraz was not a threat, and he would not be rounded up with the men. Kazbek's mind was engaged in this sort of agonizing calculus, trying to determine the best way to save his children from a horror with too many variables and too many unknowns. How best to act? Yes, he had information to share. But even if he escaped, he thought, the terrorists might identify his wife and sons. And then kill them. They had already shot several people, including Ruslan Betrozov, who had done nothing more than speak. No, Kazbek thought, he could not run. He also knew that any uprising by the hostages would have to be swift and complete. There were few terrorists in the gym, but by Kazbek's count at least thirty more roamed the school. How could all of these terrorists be overcome by an unarmed crowd, especially when even before rigging the bombs the terrorists had created an immeasurable psychological advantage? "If any of you resists us," one had warned, "we will kill children and leave the one who resists alive." There would be no resistance. Who, after all, would lead it? Already the adult male captives were dying. Many had been executed. Most of the others were in the main hall, kneeling, hands clasped behind their heads. Kazbek was lucky. The terrorists had overlooked him during the last roundup. He had been spared execution. Now his mind worked methodically. He wanted no one to see what he planned to do. Slowly, almost imperceptibly, his hand moved over the floor to the blue wire. Kazbek was forty-three. He had been a Soviet sapper as a younger man. He knew how bombs worked. He also knew how to disable them. The bomb overhead was part of a simple system, an open electric circuit rigged to a motor-vehicle battery. If the terrorists closed the circuit, current would flow from the battery through the wires and detonate the bombs. But if Kazbek pulled apart the wire inside its insulation, no current could flow. Then, he knew, if the circuit snapped closed, the bomb above his family would not explode. Kazbek had spent much of the day folding the wire back and forth, making a crimp. It was only a matter of time. He lifted the wire. Back and forth he folded the notch, working it, looking directly at the men who would kill him if they knew what he was doing. He would disconnect this bomb. It was a step. Every step counted. His mind kept working. How does my family get out? 9:1O A.M. THE SCHOOLYARD. Morning marked a new school year at School No. 1 in Beslan, beginning with rituals of years past. Returning students, second through twelfth graders, had lined up in a horseshoe formation beside the red brick building. They wore uniforms: girls in dark dresses, boys in dark pants and white shirts. The forecast had predicted hot weather; only the day before, the administration had pushed the schedule an hour earlier, to the relative cool of 9:00 A.M. Students fidgeted with flowers, chocolates, and balloons, waiting for the annual presentation, when first graders would march before their schoolmates for the opening of their academic lives. Zalina Levina took a seat behind the rostrum and greeted the milling parents. Beslan is an industrial and agricultural town of about thirty-five thousand people on the plain beneath the Caucasus ridge, part of the Russian republic of North Ossetia and one of the few places in the region with a modicum of jobs. For the mo¬ment, work seemed forgotten. Parents had come to celebrate. Irina Naldikoyeva sat with her daughter, Alana, four, and glimpsed her son, Kazbek, seven, in the formation with his second-grade class. Aida Archegova had two sons in the assembly. Zalina was baby-sitting her two-and-a-half-year-old granddaughter, Amina. They had not planned on attending, but the child had heard music and seen children streaming toward the school. "Grandma,"she had said, "let's go dance."Zalina put on a denim dress and joined the flow. Already it was warm. The first graders were about to step forward. The school year had begun. The terrorists appeared as if from nowhere. A military truck stopped near the school and men leapt from the cargo bed, firing rifles and shouting, "Allahu akhbar!" They moved with speed and certitude, as if every step had been rehearsed. The first few sprinted between the formation and the schoolyard gate, blocking escape. There was almost no resistance. Ruslan Frayev, a local man who had come with several members of his family, drew a pistol and began to fire. He was killed. The terrorists seemed to be everywhere. Zalina saw a man in a mask sprinting with a rifle. Then another. And a third. Many students in the formation had their backs to the advancing gun¬men, but one side did not, and as Zalina sat confused, those students broke and ran. The formation disintegrated. Scores of balloons floated skyward as children released them. A cultivated sense of order became bedlam. Dzera Kudzayeva, seven, had been selected for a role in which she would be carried on the shoulders of a senior and strike a bell to start the new school year. Her father, Aslan Kudzayev, had hired Karen Mdinaradze, a video cameraman for a nearby soccer team, to record the big day. Dzera wore a blue dress with a white apron and had two white bows in her hair, and was on the senior's shoulders when the terrorists arrived. They were quickly caught. For many other hostages, recognition came slowly. Aida Archegova thought she was in a counterterrorism drill. Beslan is roughly 950 miles south of Moscow, in a zone destabilized by the Chechen wars. Police actions were part of life. "Is it exercises?" she asked a terrorist as he bounded past. He stopped. "What are you, a fool?" he said. The terrorists herded the panicked crowd into a rear courtyard, a place with no outlet. An attached building housed the boiler room, and Zalina ran there with others to hide. The room had no rear exit. They were trapped. The door opened. A man in a tracksuit stood at the entrance. "Get out or I will start shooting," he said. Zalina did not move. She thought she would beg for mercy. Her granddaughter was with her, and a baby must mean a pass. She froze until only she and Amina remained. The terrorist glared. "You need a special invitation?" he said. "I will shoot you right here.” Speechless with fear, she stepped out, joining a mass of people as obedient as if they had been tamed. The terrorists had forced the crowd against the school's brick wall and were driving it through a door. The people could not file in quickly enough, and the men broke windows and handed children in. Already there seemed to be dozens of the terrorists. They lined the hall, redirecting the people into the gym. "We are from Chechnya," one said. "This is a seizure. We are here to start the withdrawal of troops and the liberation of Chechnya.” As the hostages filed onto the basketball court, more terrorists came in. One fired into the ceiling. "Everybody be silent!" he said. "You have been taken hostage. Calm down. Stop the panic and no¬body will be hurt. We are going to issue our demands, and if the demands are implemented, we will let the children out.” Rules were laid down. There would be no talking without permission. All speech would be in Russian, not Ossetian, so the terrorists could understand it, too. The hostages would turn in their cell phones, cameras, and video cameras. Any effort to resist would be met with mass executions, including of women and children. When the terrorist had finished, Ruslan Betrozov, a father who had brought his two sons to class, stood and translated the instructions into Ossetian. He was a serious man, forty-four years old and with a controlled demeanor. The terrorists let him speak. When he stopped, one approached. "Are you finished?" he asked. "Have you said everything you want to say?" Betrozov nodded. The terrorist shot him in the head. 9:20 A.M. THE ADMINISTRATOR'S OFFICE . Irina Dzutseva, Kazbek Misikov's wife, huddled near the desk, embracing Atsamaz, her first-grade son. Atsamaz was quiet and waiflike but dressed like a gentleman in black suit and white shirt. Irina could feel his fear. They hid amid papers and textbooks, listening to the long corridor. Doors were being opened, then slammed. They heard gunshots. Atsamaz clung to a balloon. "Where are Papa and Batik?" he asked. "Were they killed?” The first graders and their parents had been standing at the main entrance and were among the first to see the attack. Irina had turned back into the school and bolted down the corridor as the shooting began, charging down the hall in high heels, pulling her son by his hand. She heard screams and a window shatter. Glass tinkled on the floor. The corridor was long and still; their footfalls echoed as they passed each door, the entrance to the gym, the cafeteria, and the restrooms. At the end of the hall they rushed upstairs to the auditorium and crouched behind the maroon curtain on the stage with other mothers and students. Balloons were taped to the ceiling. Posters decorated the wall. Behind the curtain was a door, and they pushed in and settled into an office packed with books. Short Stories by Russian Writers. Methods of Teaching. Literature 5. Irina looked at the others: four adults and six children. They were cut off and could only guess at what was happening outside. They sat in the stillness, waiting to be saved. After about half an hour, someone pushed against the door. A child called out hopefully: "Are you ours?” The door swung open. Three terrorists stood before them, beards hanging beneath masks. "God forbid that we are yours," one said, and the group was marched down to the gym with ter¬rorists firing rifles into the ceiling. In the gym they encountered a scene beyond their imagination. Almost the entire student body had been taken captive, a mass of distraught human life trapped as if it were under a box. Children's cries filled the air. The gym was roughly twenty-eight yards long by fifteen yards wide, and its longer sides each had a bank of four windows, ten feet by ten feet, with panes made from opaque plastic. Light came in as a glow. A wide streak of blood marked the area where Betrozov's corpse had been dragged. Irina hurried with Atsamaz to the far corner and found Batraz, her older son. She understood that their lives would be leveraged in a test of wills against the Kremlin. Hope rested with negotiations, or with Russia's security forces, not known for tactical precision or regard for civilian life. The last time a Chechen group had seized hundreds of hostages, at a theater in Moscow in 2002, Russian commandos attacked with poisonous gas. At least 129 hostages died. Two young women wearing explosive belts roamed the wooden floor, wraithlike figures dressed in black, their faces hidden by veils. Irina shuddered. Russia has an enduring capacity to produce ghastly social phenomena; these were the latest occurrence of the shahidka, female Islamic martyrs who had sown fear during the second Chechen war. The Russian news called them black widows, women driven to militant Islam and vengeance by the loss of Chechnya's young men. The hostages noticed an incongruity: The black veil worn by one shahidka framed the neatly sculpted eyebrows of what seemed a teenager who had recently visited a beauty salon. Just after 1:00 p.m., September 3. Aida Sidakova, six, was knocked from the gym by the first explosions. Separated from her mother, she climbed back into the gym, which then burned. Aida and her mother both survived. Photo Credits: Photograph by Dmitry Beliakov Esquire Media Kit Contact us Originally designed and developed by the Hearst Interactive Studios Supported and developed by iVillage Consulting Hearst Corporation PRIVACY POLICY Copyright © 2006 by the Hearst Corporation Subscribe to Esquire | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 884 Registered: 1-2006 |
More inconvenience: On This Day in Post 9/11 Islamic History Date Country City Killed Injured Description 8/15/05 Chechnya Grozny 2 11 Muslims target a restaurant with a car bomb, killing a woman and a 12-year-old boy. 8/15/05 Iraq Uwarige 30 0 The mass grave of thirty people, including two women, is uncovered. The Fedayeen tortured the victims before executing them. 8/15/05 Iraq Dura 1 0 'Holy Warriors' kidnap a Christian woman and then cut off her head. 8/15/04 Iran Neka 1 0 Iranian Mullah publicly hangs a 16-year-old girl for having a 'sharp tongue.' 8/15/04 Afghanistan Maiwand 6 0 Taliban extremists attack an Afghan army post and kill six soldiers. 8/15/04 Iraq Baghdad 1 5 Bus station bombed with mortars - at least one killed and five injured. 8/15/03 India Pakherpora 0 16 Sixteen civilians are injured when militant Muslims toss a grenade into the street. 8/15/02 Indonesia Manyomba 1 3 Fifty militants attack two Christian villages. They shoot three people and strangle a 3-year-old child to death. 8/15/02 Algeria Harshoun 26 0 Islamists attacked and slaughtered three families including women and children. . | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4697 Registered: 12-2001  |
jd, Are you trying to prove that there are terrorists acting on behalf of Islam? Or, are you trying to prove that all Muslims are terrorists? On the first point, I don't see much room for debate unless some of the terrorists join the board to argue otherwise. On the second point, I would hope for a lot of counter arguments since it simply isn't the case that all Muslims are terrorists. | ||
| frannyfree Citizen Username: Frannyfree Post Number: 236 Registered: 1-2004 |
True...But it sure seems like all terrorists are Muslim. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave  Post Number: 10498 Registered: 4-1997  |
Armata Corsa Aum Shinrikyo Chukaku-Ha Irish Republican Army Japanese Red Army Kach and Kahane Chai Lautaro Youth Movement Loyalist Volunteer Force Manuel Rodriquez Patriotic Front Moranzanist Patriotic Front National Liberation Army Colombia National Liberation Front of Corsica Nestor Paz Zamora Commission (CNPZ) New People's Army Party of Democratic Kampuchea Real IRA Red Army Faction Red Brigades Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia Revolutionary Organization 17 November Revolutionary People's Liberation Party/Front Revolutionary People's Struggle Sendero Luminoso Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia are all non-Muslim terror groups | ||
| frannyfree Citizen Username: Frannyfree Post Number: 238 Registered: 1-2004 |
How many of them have blown up American airliners? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10499 Registered: 4-1997 |
I don't know. Why don't you do a little research yourself. Here's one for starters: 1994: FedEx Flight 705 hijacked by disgruntled employee Auburn Calloway as it left Memphis, Tennessee, with the intention of using it as a cruise missile against FedEx HQ. He was subdued by the flight crew before an emergency landing back at Memphis. | ||
| Project 37 Citizen Username: Project37 Post Number: 250 Registered: 3-2006  |
You really don't understand what terrorism actually is, do you? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15306 Registered: 1-2003  |
Thanks for that list, Dave! What about the Basque separatist party in Spain? I forgot their name. | ||
| anon Supporter Username: Anon Post Number: 3003 Registered: 6-2002 |
Almost every time I read about a violent crime in the Star-Ledger the perpetrator is Black. Should Bush really have one of "those people" holding a high position in his cabinet? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 889 Registered: 1-2006 |
You mean violent criminals? I thought he had Rumsfeld and Cheney. jd | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 893 Registered: 1-2006 |
FYI ROME (Reuters) - Italian police arrested a Pakistani immigrant on Monday for the murder of his 20-year-old daughter, who investigators believe was killed because her family disapproved of her relationship with an Italian man. Police found the body of Hina Saleem on Saturday, buried in the vegetable garden at the back of her family house near the northern city of Brescia. Her throat had been slit and her relatives appeared to have left in a hurry. Hina's Italian boyfriend, with whom she had recently moved in, reported her missing on Thursday after she went to visit her family. Locals told police her father, Mohammed Saleem, resented her relationship with the man. "He has decided to exercise his right to remain silent. He seemed quite calm and aware of the accusations that are being levelled at him," Saleem's lawyer, Alberto Bordone, told Sky Italia television. Italian news agencies said the woman's uncle was also being questioned. The case has added to a heated political debate about immigration, just days after the centre-left government relaxed rules for foreigners to gain Italian citizenship. Centre-right lawmaker Antonio Briguglio said on Monday the government should reconsider its plan, while a member of Prodi's Union coalition said the murder showed the left's "rather idyllic idea of multi-ethnic integration" had its limits. Italy was shocked earlier this year by a revival of the Mafia's own tradition of "honour killing", when the nephew of a Mafia boss in the southern region of Calabria shot his sister for "dishonouring" the family by having a baby out of wedlock. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15333 Registered: 1-2003 |
August 16, 2006 Op-Ed Contributor Muslim Myopia By IRSHAD MANJI New Haven LAST week, the luminaries of the British Muslim mainstream — lobbyists, lords and members of Parliament — published an open letter to Prime Minister Tony Blair, telling him that the “debacle†of both Iraq and Lebanon provides “ammunition to extremists who threaten us all.†In increasingly antiwar America, a similar argument is gaining traction: The United States brutalizes Muslims, which in turn foments Islamist terror. But violent jihadists have rarely needed foreign policy grievances to justify their hot heads. There was no equivalent to the Iraq debacle in 1993, when Islamists first tried to blow up the World Trade Center, or in 2000, when they attacked the American destroyer Cole. Indeed, that assault took place after United States-led military intervention saved thousands of Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo. If Islamists cared about changing Iraq policy, they would not have bothered to abduct two journalists from France — probably the most antiwar, anti-Bush nation in the West. Even overt solidarity with Iraqi suffering did not prevent Margaret Hassan, who ran a world-renowned relief agency in Baghdad, from being executed by insurgents. Meanwhile, at least as many Muslims are dying at the hands of other Muslims as under the boots of any foreign imperial power. In Sudan, black Muslims are starved, raped, enslaved and slaughtered by Arab militias, with the consent of an Islamic government. Where is the “official†Muslim fury against that genocide? Do Muslim lives count only when snuffed out by non-Muslims? If not, then here is an idea for Muslim representatives in the West: Go ahead and lecture the politicians that their foreign policies give succor to radicals. At the same time, however, challenge the educated and angry young Muslims to hold their own accountable, too. This means reminding them that in Pakistan, Sunnis hunt down Shiites every day; that in northern Israel, Katuysha rockets launched by Hezbollah have ripped through the homes of Arab Muslims as well as Jews; that in Egypt, the riot police of President Hosni Mubarak routinely club, rape, torture and murder Muslim activists promoting democracy; and, above all, that civil wars have become hallmarks of the Islamic world. Muslim figureheads will not dare be so honest. They would sooner replicate the very sins for which they castigate the Bush and Blair governments — namely, switching rationales and pretending integrity. In the wake of the London bombings on July 7, 2005, Iqbal Sacranie, then the head of the influential Muslim Council of Britain, insisted that economic discrimination lay at the root of Islamist radicalism in his country. When it came to light that some of the suspects enjoyed middle-class upbringings, university educations, jobs and cars, Mr. Sacranie found a new culprit: foreign policy. In so doing, he boarded the groupthink express steered by Muslim elites. The good news is that ordinary people of faith are capable of self-criticism. Two months ago, 65 percent of British Muslims polled believed that their communities should increase efforts to integrate. The same poll also produced troubling results: 13 percent lionized the July 7 terrorists, and 16 percent sympathized. Still, these figures total 29 percent — less than half the number who sought to belong more fully to British society. Whether in Britain or America, those who claim to speak for Muslims have a responsibility to the majority, which wants to reconcile Islam with pluralism. Whatever their imperial urges, it is not for Tony Blair or George W. Bush to restore Islam’s better angels. That duty — and glory — goes to Muslims. Irshad Manji, a fellow at Yale University, is the author of “The Trouble with Islam Today: A Muslim’s Call for Reform in Her Faith.†Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2364 Registered: 8-2003 |
ok, jd's article included this passage:
we are, I guess, to presume the man was Muslim. in another passage:
I guess that guy was Catholic. So what does the article prove? that all religions include violent reactionaries as members? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 895 Registered: 1-2006 |
Certain violent groups imitate each other. One claims it is a religion, the other a violent group. Which do you prefer? meanwhile, Mr. O'Boogie, I present to you, from India, dailypioneer.com, where the mafia don't mean a thing, the following reminder of the religion's fervent followers and their ritual killings, worldwide: West alone is not threatened It's difficult to fault US President George Bush for being obnoxiously upfront and brutally honest while describing the jihadis and their cohorts who planned "mass murder on an unimaginable scale" by blowing up 10, probably more, trans-Atlantic passenger jets taking off from Heathrow as "Islamic fascists". British Conservative politician and writer Michael Gove, in his book, Celsius 7/7, in which he analyses the phenomenon of Islamist terrorism, is equally, if not more, scathing in his description of "the totalitarian nature of the ideology that drives jihad's warriors" who "are driven by a divine mission to ensure that the whole earth, in due course, learns to submit to Islamist rule". If there's anything objectionable about Mr Bush's comments following the unravelling of the plot last Thursday, it's his insistence that the US is the main target of "Islamic fascists". Even the most cursory survey of jihad's global assault on free societies and democracies will make it abundantly clear that the threat posed by radical Islamism and its remorseless practitioners to the rest of the world is no less than that posed to the US and Americans. This simple fact, however, is lost on those who believe that 9/11 marked the launch of the crusade against non-believers and, therefore, place the US and its allies in the centre of the unremitting assault by jihadis looking for spectacular hits with heart-wrenching consequences. Hence the Western media's astonishing refusal to list the July 11 Mumbai bombings, which left 187 commuters dead and hundreds of others physically and mentally scarred for the rest of their lives, as a terrorist strike of any consequence even while recalling other "mass murders" committed by those who repose their faith in radical Islam. Thus, in the wake of the unmasking of the London plot, people were asked to recall the Madrid bombings, the Bali bombings, even bombings in Turkey and, of course, the 7/7 terror attacks of last year. There is also this amazing reluctance to acknowledge and accept that Pakistan continues to remain a hub for global jihad, notwithstanding claims to the contrary by Gen Pervez Musharraf and the West's description of him as a "valuable and reliable ally" in the war against terror. Ever since last October's earthquake which devastated large tracts of Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, the Jamaat-ud-Dawa, based in Lahore, has been using human misery to collect enormous sums of money from "Islamic charities" for relief work. That money has been used for recruiting fresh cadre for Jamaat-ud-Dawa's armed wing, the Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, in acquiring arms and explosives and plotting attacks, like the plan to blow up passenger aircraft over the Atlantic or while they were landing in American cities, across the world, including India. The money that was wired from Pakistan to the UK for the plotters, barring three all of whom are Britons of Pakistani origin, to buy air tickets most probably came from the funds provided by "Islamic charities" to Jamaat-ud-Dawa. Further evidence of this organisation's involvement is provided by the fact that its chief, Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, was placed under house arrest around the same time the London plot was discovered. Pakistan's ISI, we have been told, "cooperated" with Britain's MI5 in busting the plot; arrests in Karachi and Lahore led to the conspiracy being nipped in the bud, or so it has been claimed. Such selective "cooperation", however, should not be allowed to distract attention from how jihad factories continue to flourish under Islamabad's benign, if not encouraging, gaze. A recent issue of the Pakistani magazine, Herald, in its cover story, 'The Waiting Game', has disclosed details of terrorist camps at Hisari near Garhi Habibullaj and Manshera in North-West Frontier Province. It has provided a graphic account of how "thousands" of terrorists, affiliated to Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, Jaish-e-Muhammad, Harkat-ul Mujahideen and al-Badr Mujahideen, are being trained with financial and material assistance from Pakistani intelligence agencies which cannot but include the ISI that is no stranger in this part of the world. Yet there is no attempt, at least visibly so, by either the US Administration or European Governments to bring Gen Musharraf to heel. On the contrary, he remains the West's most favoured military ruler in uniform. Of course, Pakistan is not the only country where the standard-bearers of radical Islam are recruiting and exporting foot soldiers of jihad, not to mention convincing Muslims abroad to kill and destroy, to wage war against their home country if not motherland, in the name of religion. Bangladesh is not lagging far behind. Those in the West, especially the US, who find it difficult to believe that India's security, as also that of democracies around the world, is as much imperilled by jihadis from Pakistan as from Bangladesh, can cross-check this fact with Selig S Harrison's perceptive assessment that appeared under the headline 'A New Hub for Terrorism? In Bangladesh, an Islamic Movement With Al Qaeda Ties Is on the Rise' in The Washington Post on August 2. "While the United States dithers, a growing Islamic fundamentalist movement linked to Al Qaeda and Pakistani intelligence agencies is steadily converting the strategically located nation of Bangladesh into a new regional hub for terrorist operations that reach into India and South-East Asia," Harrison writes, adding, "For Pakistan's intelligence agencies, especially Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), the legacy of the independence war has been a built-in network of agents within the Jamaat and its affiliates who can be utilised to harass India along its 2,500-mile border with Bangladesh. In addition to supporting tribal separatist groups in North-East India, the ISI uses Bangladesh as a base for helping Islamic extremists inside India." The Pakistan connection is undeniable, irrefutable, never mind whether or not the ISI is "cooperating" with CIA and MI5. Tragically, the West continues to ignore this truth. In a sense, it is this duplicity of the West which has emboldened jihadis to look for increasingly bigger targets. True, unlike the 9/11 attacks, most of the subsequent strikes - the bombings in Madrid, London and Mumbai, to cite a few - have been carried out by homegrown terrorists. But it would be self-defeating to ignore the key role played by individuals and organisations located abroad. The sooner the world locates the epicentre of global terror, the safer nations will be, or, at least, we will be closer to waging an effective war against jihad and defeating "Islamic fascism". jd says: Have a nice day. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 896 Registered: 1-2006 |
from mypetjawa website, more honor killing philosophy. Seems the mob can learn from the Islamic faith a thing or two about how to handle your women. Rape and Honor (Jeddah, Saudi Arabia) A 20-year-old Pakistani woman, Zarni, claimed she endured three years of being raped by her father before the authorities were notified. Subsequent to her father's arrest, Zarni was pressured by her mother to recant. She did and now Zarni is being sent back to Pakistan. According to a neighbor, "When she reaches Pakistan it will be her end, literally," said Umm Abdul Aziz. "She comes from a Balochi tribal family and they are known to be very unmerciful in rape situations. The only way they solve it is by killing the woman." It is generally referred to as honor killing. Do I understand this situation correctly? Zarni was allegedly raped by her father, therefore, she must be killed. Everything's bass ackwards. Even if Zarni filed a false report, which I frankly don't think is the case, she doesn't deserve to die. Companion post at Interested-Participant. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2368 Registered: 8-2003 |
you've got me convinced. it's time to invade Pakistan | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3748 Registered: 5-2004  |
I believe jd is saying we should simply kill all Muslims. It's not a country that he is indicting, it is the entire religion. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2369 Registered: 8-2003 |
oh. can we still invade Pakistan? | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3749 Registered: 5-2004 |
No, they have the bomb. We only invade countries that don't have WMDs yet. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4706 Registered: 12-2001 |
Changes the names and dates, and you can read here the dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians. http://www.gazdaart.com/d_EthnicCleansingAbout.shtml | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 902 Registered: 1-2006 |
Pakistani woman with explosives in drink bottles arrested at West Virginia airport "BREAKING NEWS: Explosive Substances Believed to be Found at Tri-State Airport," from WSAZ NewsChannel 3, with thanks to R.: Tri-State Airport in Wayne County has been evacuated. A perimeter has been set up, and evacuees are being asked to stand back 350 feet from the airport. The Transportation Security Administration reports that a passenger's water bottle screened positive for an explosive material around 9:15 this morning. A second test was confirmed at 11:25. TSA is waiting for further testing to determine the exact substance. NBC News reports that federal screeners found four containers of liquids inside a woman's carry-on bag during the screening process this morning. Larry Salyers, Tri-State Airport Director, tells WSAZ the woman is of Pakistani origin, lived in Jackson, Michigan and most recently lived in the Huntington area. She is being detained for questioning. The flight in which the woman was going to board was on its way to Charlotte, North Carolina with a final destination of Detroit, Michigan. FBI officials are on scene. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1930 Registered: 10-2004  |
jd - please go look in the mirror and say boo. http://www.wsaz.com/breakingnews/3590966.html what is not present in your article is the rest of the paragraph
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| Project 37 Citizen Username: Project37 Post Number: 268 Registered: 3-2006 |
This post-incident "BREAKING NEWS" BS has *got* to go. OH NO THE DEADLY LIQUID AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH STOP THE DANGEROUS BROWN TERRORIST!!!!! Oh wait a second. Whoops, sorry. http://www.wilx.com/news/headlines/3597131.html I resent how the "we were wrong in targeting an innocent person because they were brown" story is never as loud as OH NO TERRORIST BREAKING NEWS EVERYBODY PANIC!!!!! It's like this week's story about the plane that was diverted to Boston because a woman had a panic attack. The story had warped to the point where it was being reported that she had "dangerous" sounding things like vaseline, a screwdriver, matches, and a note from Al Qaida. She had none of those, yet the report about that part (y'know, FACTS) wasn't as loud. Good for these guys on shaking up a pregnant woman. Heroes. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15369 Registered: 1-2003 |
Joel, did you see the Venn diagrams? Do they make any sense to you? I've observed that all national governments that are Islam-dominated are governments that I distrust or disagree with. I do not ask myself if Islam leads to this intrinsically. Culturally, it does, but that does not mean, by extension, that all Islamic things or people are distrustworthy. I make my judgements from observation, not by induction proof. There are good people who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, and everything else. Same for bad people. Sorry to use such simple terms as good people and bad people, but you get the idea. I can't be sure what you're getting at, Joel, but I think you're trying to smother us with evidence of the badness of all Muslim people. If so, I don't buy it. Once again, the facts are against you, and even if they were right, the logic itself is utterly flawed. To show that most evil people are Muslim, if you could show it, does not mean that most Muslim people are evil. Again, all dogs have two ears, I have two ears, so am I therefore a dog? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 12426 Registered: 5-2001 |
Why did they let her go? I am sure they had a good case against her for trying to smuggle liquids on to an airplane. Maybe they have put a tail on her in hopes she will lead them to other plotters who wouldn't give up their face cream. Personally if I was Bush I would have had her rendered to one of our Eastern European "facilities". | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 909 Registered: 1-2006 |
CAIRO - Prominent Islamist preacher Sheikh Yusef al-Qaradawi has called for a holy war against Israel, an Egyptian newspaper reported Wednesday. "Muslims must carry out jihad to liberate all the land of Islam. Palestine does not belong only to the Palestinians but to all Muslims," Qaradawi was quoted as saying by the Al-Masri Al-Yom independent daily. The Egyptian-born cleric, best known for his regular appearances on the Qatari satellite channel, Al-Jazeera, said that the Islamic world "needs men like those of Hezbollah: in Egypt, Iraq, Jordan and everywhere". "There isn't even an Arab willingness to fight Israel," he complained at a seminar at the University of Cairo, adding: "The peace that the Arab leaders are calling for is in fact a capitulation." Qaradawi, who now lives in Qatar and has close links to the opposition Muslim Brotherhood, said that Islamic law, or sharia, dictated "if a land of Islam is occupied, the entire population must resist and start jihad." The 78-year-old achieved star status with his appearances on Al-Jazeera's weekly religious affairs programme "Al-Shariaa wa Al-Haya" (Islamic Law and Life) and has consistently defended Palestinian suicide attacks against Israel. | ||
| Project 37 Citizen Username: Project37 Post Number: 271 Registered: 3-2006 |
So what's the problem? A guy is complaining about the lack of Muslim interest in committing terrorist acts against Israel. Did you know that there's more than one terrorist that feels that way? Did you know that the majority of the Arab/Muslim population doesn't? At least, that's what the guy you quoted seems to think. If you're trying to make the point that I think you're going for, you'll have to read more carefully before cutting and pasting. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 15382 Registered: 1-2003 |
I think Joel is in "write only" mode. I don't think he reads our responses. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 910 Registered: 1-2006 |
Wrong. I have to go back into my bunker now. End of transmission. jd | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1456 Registered: 4-2006 |
Tom Reingold- Not to speak for Joel, but I think Joel hasn't seen a substantive argument to reply to. It's like reading the "kumbaya korner", with your exception. Besides, all you will get in pointing out the severe problems posed by islam is stupid claims you wish to perpetrate genoicide on the world's muslims. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 911 Registered: 1-2006 |
There is internet in the bunker. So, here is something, a report on a June 2006 survey, reported by Daniel Pipes, who ain't afraid to have an opinion. ~~~~~ How Muslims Think By Daniel Pipes FrontPageMagazine.com | June 28, 2006 How do Muslims worldwide think? To find out, the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press carried out a large-scale attitudinal survey this spring. Titled “The Great Divide: How Westerners and Muslims View Each Other,” it interviewed Muslims in two batches of countries: six of them with long-standing, majority-Muslim populations (Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Turkey) and four of them in Western Europe with new, minority Muslim populations (France, Germany, Great Britain, Spain). The survey, which also looks at Western views of Muslims, yielded some dismaying but not altogether surprising results. Its themes can be grouped under three rubrics. A proclivity to conspiracy theories: In not one Muslim population polled does a majority believe that Arabs carried out the 9/11 attacks on the United States. The proportions range from a mere 15 percent in Pakistan holding Arabs responsible, to 48 percent among French Muslims. Confirming recent negative trends in Turkey, the number of Turks who point the finger at Arabs has declined from 46 percent in 2002 to 16 percent today. In other words, in every one of these ten Muslim communities, a majority views 9/11 as a hoax perpetrated by the U.S. government, Israel, or some other agency. Likewise, Muslims are widely prejudiced against Jews, ranging from 28 percent unfavorable ratings among French Muslims to 98 percent in Jordan (which, despite the monarchy’s moderation, has a majority Palestinian population). Further, Muslims in certain countries (especially Egypt and Jordan) see Jews conspiratorially, as being responsible for bad relations between Muslims and Westerners. Conspiracy theories also pertain to larger topics. Asked, “What is most responsible for Muslim nations’ lack of prosperity?” between 14 percent (in Pakistan) and 43 percent (in Jordan) blame the policies of the U.S. and other Western states, as opposed to indigenous problems, such as a lack of democracy or education, or the presence of corruption or radical Islam. This conspiracism points to a widespread unwillingness in the umma to deal with realities, preferring the safer bromides of plots, schemes, and intrigues. It also reveals major problems adjusting to modernity. Support for terrorism: All the Muslim populations polled display a solid majority of support for Osama bin Laden. Asked whether they have confidence in him, Muslims replied positively, ranging between 8 percent (in Turkey) to 72 percent (in Nigeria). Likewise, suicide bombing is popular. Muslims who call it justified range from 13 percent (in Germany) to 69 percent (in Nigeria). These appalling numbers suggest that terrorism by Muslims has deep roots and will remain a danger for years to come. British and Nigerian Muslims the most alienated: The United Kingdom stands out as a paradoxical country. Non-Muslims there have strikingly more favorable views of Islam and Muslims than elsewhere in the West; for example, only 32 percent of the British sample view Muslims as violent, significantly less their counterparts in France (41 percent), Germany (52 percent) or Spain (60 percent). In the Muhammad cartoon dispute, Britons showed more sympathy for the Muslim outlook than did other Europeans. More broadly, Britons blame Muslims less for the poor state of Western-Muslim relations. But British Muslims return the favor with the most malign anti-Western attitudes found in Europe. Many more of them regard Westerners as violent, greedy, immoral, and arrogant than do their counterparts in France, Germany, and Spain. In addition, whether asked about their attitudes toward Jews, responsibility for 9/11, or the place of women in Western societies, their views are notably more extreme. The situation in Britain reflects the “Londonistan” phenomenon, whereby Britons preemptively cringe and Muslims respond to this weakness with aggression. Nigerian Muslims have generally the most belligerent views on such issues as the state of Western-Muslim relations, the supposed immorality and arrogance of Westerners, and support for bin Laden and suicide terrorism. This extremism results, no doubt, from the violent state of Christian-Muslim relations in Nigeria. Ironically, most Muslim alienation is found in those countries where Muslims are either the most or the least accommodated, suggesting that a middle path is best – where Muslims do not win special privileges, as in the U.K., nor are they in an advanced state of hostility, as in Nigeria. Overall, the Pew survey sends an undeniable message of crisis from one end to the other of the Muslim world. | ||
| Project 37 Citizen Username: Project37 Post Number: 272 Registered: 3-2006 |
Riiiiiiiiiiight. As I pointed out, he's not reading carefully before "debating." "Responding" by cutting and pasting from ultra-conservative websites? C'mon now. At least TRY. | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10544 Registered: 4-1997 |
Europeans "are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene." –Daniel Pipes Racists like Pipes should work somewhere far away from a keyboard. Lumberjacking would be good. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 912 Registered: 1-2006 |
Facts are so inconvenient, particularly when you don't like them. I didn't conduct the poll. I don't think you did. So, attack the messenger. It wouldn't be the first time. jd | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 10545 Registered: 4-1997 |
Why do Zogby polls vary so much? | ||
| Project 37 Citizen Username: Project37 Post Number: 273 Registered: 3-2006 |
Did you not read my response to your alarmist "news reporting"? Or my response to your post that actually worked against your own point-of-view? Don't be so quick to get sanctimonious over facts. | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 913 Registered: 1-2006 |
Not alarmist. Just reporting facts. The facts might cause concern. They might not. But, there is nothing wrong with posting facts, and opinions, which the main stream media sources in this smug country don't share with us lumpenproletariat. jd | ||
| Factvsfiction Citizen Username: Factvsfiction Post Number: 1459 Registered: 4-2006 |
Project 37- It seems the "ostrich" factor is well in play in this thread. In fact, it seems to be a pandemic among the extreme left progressive types these days. Once again as I have repeatedly stated, you cannot apply 21 st century western secular concepts of politics, societal values, and morality to people who think the 12th century is the absolute place to be. Those who disagree should offer some solutions to the dangers posed within islam to discuss rather than engaging in off-the-cuff kumbaya-istic cheerleading. Let's hear them. Dave- Where and when did Pipes say that? I still can't find your earlier reference on the journalist. And is Pipes really making racist comments per se or discussing european perspectives on their cultural and societal differences with these immigrants (Differences do exist you know, sans any racism). Perhaps Pipes is noting that the average european is more prone to racism that the average american? Just ask any muslim Turk in Germany. And on your using the word "racist" so much, is there an official political correctness guidebook that you use that establishes authoritatively who and what is racist? Personally I think it may be an easy word to throw around, but too much and inappropriate usage blunts the calling out of real racism. |
