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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5641
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 9:58 am: | 
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Quote:it makes you wonder why "the right to protest" was created to begin with. maybe it was a way for the govt to keep the populace at bay
Someone tell the people behind the Tianenman Square massacre about this theory. Or the Boston Tea Party -- but those guys were terrorists.
And again, the civil rights demonstrations -- what happened at the Edmund Pettis Bridge, the march on Washington -- all this proves you dead wrong. |
Oldstone
Citizen
Username: Rogers4317
Post Number: 904
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 9:58 am: |
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i can't help but chuckle at slk proclaiming that the purpose of protesting is vanity and venting (we have MOL to vent)...just think, the protesters may spark some deeper thought on observers of a protest and gain more strength in numbers. the protesters may illicit more understanding of elected officials. a protest aims to reach out, not be an outlet for a public airing of some egomaniacal anti-war person's steam. think beyond you, for chrissakes. i hate the state of politics in this world, but even a casual observer like myself can look beyond being beligerent and condescending about protesting being a waste of time and an ego trip for those involved. |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7762
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 10:04 am: |
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Tom is comparing the Summit rally to the Boston tea party. 
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Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 2322
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 10:07 am: |
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Popular Mechanics-boy with another grunt. |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7763
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 10:10 am: |
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Popular Mechanics? What the heck are you talking about, son?
I guess your more the Better Homes & Gardens type.
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S.L.K. 2.0
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1907
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 10:13 am: |
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Tom-
I am not claiming to be right, just a thought i always had on the subject.
too bad you have to reducee it to such a context.
BTW, the majority of your examples are REVOLUTIONS, learn from it...
What are you going to do, hold up placard in the middle of Summit, chanting "no justice no peace"?
wow, you rebel you...prove your "outrage" and call to arms already...
REVOLT OF STFU!
 -SLK
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Oldstone
Citizen
Username: Rogers4317
Post Number: 907
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 10:14 am: |
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 strawberry said your instead of you're, you guys !
i love it when really, really smart, rich people do dumb things ! |
S.L.K. 2.0
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1908
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 10:16 am: |
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and oh, tom?
Thank you for illustrating the point that it all about you and others like you being right, nothing more, nothing less. Way to drive it home buddy...
case closed...
-SLK |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 2377
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 11:06 am: |
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you don't think a Republican congressman from NJ is going to pay attention if enough of his constituents take to the streets of Summit to protest?
and what do you define as a "revolution" anyway? do the good people of Summit need to storm the congressman's office and burn it to the ground for it to be a "revolution?" |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 2323
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 11:31 am: |
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Straw:
Popular Mechanics-boy!
You know.
Do I have to remind you of your reading level and reading preferences in front of all these Maplewood-South Orange neighbors? |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 737
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 12:09 pm: |
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SLK,
On one important point, I agree with you.
The Summit rally won't end the war and it won't cause Ferguson to follow Republicans like Chris Shays, Chuck Hagel and Walter Jones. But the rally, like every other form of protest, can increase local public awareness and in a small way help our country move toward the tipping point where our national leadership will decide to end our military involvement in Iraq and redirect our priorities in ways that effectively promote our economic and security needs and our values.
I think those of us in the Maplewood / South Orange area who care about ending the war should operate on the assumption that the election of Linda Stender could conceivably be that tipping point. That's why South Mountain Peace Action has been encouraging local people to support Linda and other NJ peace candidates, since our own Congressmen are opponents of the war and are in "safe" districts. See www.BeAboutPeace.com for contact info.
The rally on September 16th coincides with that effort.
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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5642
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 12:13 pm: |
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Actually only one of my examples was a revolution. But even leaving that one aside, your point was that demonstrations are never effective; mine is that they sometimes are.
If you want to whine about being proven wrong, go ahead; but this thread isn't about your hurt feelings. |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 739
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 12:30 pm: |
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3ringale,
The Odom article may be the definitive statement on why we must end our involvement in Iraq. Thanks for posting it.
Odom was against the war before we invaded, and has consistently opposed it since, warning of the great damage it is doing to the United States internationally.
Odom is currently a Senior Fellow at the Hudson Institute, which is not a liberal institution. Here is his full bio on the Hudson site:
Lieutenant General William E. Odom, U.S. Army (Ret.), is a Senior Fellow with Hudson Institute and a professor at Yale University. As Director of the National Security Agency from 1985 to 1988, he was responsible for the nation's signals intelligence and communications security. From 1981 to 1985, he served as Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence, the Army's senior intelligence officer.
From 1977 to 1981, General Odom was Military Assistant to the President's Assistant for National Security Affairs, Zbigniew Brzezinski. As a member of the National Security Council staff, he worked upon strategic planning, Soviet affairs, nuclear weapons policy, telecommunications policy, and Persian Gulf security issues. He graduated from the United States Military Academy in 1954, and received a Ph.D. from Columbia University in 1970.
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S.L.K. 2.0
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1909
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 1:28 pm: |
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tom-
protests or revolutions, your examples are a farcry of what you'll ever do to express your outrage so why continue to discuss it?
-slk |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5643
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 1:37 pm: |
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How did we get from SOMA's demonstration to my personal behavior? This isn't about me. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1975
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 9:46 pm: |
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Protests raise awareness and get more people to begin discussing the issues instead of discussing last nights game or what the weather might be. It keeps the discussion alive, serves as a good way to form an organization either formal or informal and serves to sensitize local politicians to the issues.
There is more then all out revolution. In our society we can effect change without revolution simply by organizing a large enough base with the same goals we can effect electoral change. Our representatives will then effect actual change for US.
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Michael Paris
Citizen
Username: Publius
Post Number: 46
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 10:52 pm: |
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Odom's argument is right on the mark. But isn't there a prior question that he is overlooking? The prior question is "why this war"?. Perhaps that question is simply not his question in this little blog entry. Perhaps he has addressed it elsewhere. But he states that:
"The prewar dream of a liberal Iraqi democracy friendly to the United States is no longer credible."
No longer credible? It was never credible. Shouldn't he say that it was never credible? Put differently, the prior question is this: How was it that a small cabal (perhaps less than 1,000 people) fabricated a crisis over Iraq and took this country to war on false pretenses? 9/11 and "fear" don't quite do it for me as answers. There was no need for any panic over Iraq. Sadam was completely contained. He posed no threat at all, even in the Middle East, and lots of knowledgeable people said so in the run up to the war. I think that the tasks of holding the Bush Administration accountable, and, more broadly, contemplating what its successful fabrication of a crisis over Iraq says about the sorry state of our democracy (not to mention the sorry state of the Democratic Party), often get lost in the "policy" discussion about what we should do now. The policy discussion is important, but so too is the interpretation of what happened and why. Some Democrats seem to be catching on, finally, that we need an explanation for why this war happened. Beyond the standard proximate explanations (the ideology of the intellectual leaders of the cabal; the raw economic interests of the corporate backers of the cabal in gov't), isn't the real problem a deficit of democratic accountability over our foreign policy making institutions? What could possibly be done about that? I very much hope that electing liberal Democrats will be sufficient, but I also doubt it. I'd love to hear what people think about this: WHY THIS WAR? |
3ringale
Citizen
Username: Threeringale
Post Number: 366
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 9:32 am: |
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Paul Surovell,
I usually find myself at odds with both the "liberal" and "conservative" lines that turn up here regularly. Articles like the one by Odom are useful though, because of their man-bites-dog quality. Sometimes the messenger makes a difference in how the message is perceived.
I probably won't attend the Sept. 16 event because I would probably be uncomfortable with some of the ancillary political views that will no doubt be expressed. My last political demonstration was in 1970 when the US invaded Cambodia. The CHS student body walked out in protest. I was in the 9th grade at the then SOJH. A group of us walked out and joined the CHS students in blocking traffic on SO avenue for a little while. The SOJH administration offered clemency to anyone who returned to class. Those of us that didn't got 8 hours of detention. I also got a stern lecture from my father. I haven't done anything like that since. I wonder if anyone else remembers this?
Cheers |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 740
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 1:25 pm: |
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3ringale,
My wife and I moved to Maplewood in 1977 so I wasn't here during that protest. However, our group, South Mountain Peace Action, has been active since the early 1960s, and I've heard bits and pieces about the CHS protests from some of our older members, one of whom graduated from CHS in 1941. SMPA was formed as an affiliate of New Jersey Sane, which changed its name to New Jersey Sane-Freeze and then New Jersey Peace Action. SMPA was called "The Peace & Community Action Center" in 1970. We changed our name to South Mountain Peace Action in the early 1990s when Sane-Freeze became Peace Action.
The ambivalence you express about September 16th is a common one that is unfortunately unavoidable at a public event. On the other hand, the peace movement could do more to address this problem by publicly disassociating itself from certain messages. A year ago, this issue came up with regard to a major antiwar protest in Washington DC, in which one of the co-sponsors proclaimed "The Right of Return" for Palestinians as one of their top demands. South Mountain Peace Action publicly denounced the slogan as a slogan for war, not for peace, and circulated a flyer at the protest in Washington with that message [http://www.beaboutpeace.com/archives/2005/09/buses_to_dc_for.html]. Our efforts were reported in the New Jersey Jewish News and The Forward.
The event in Summit on the 16th has a pretty narrow focus, which is to call attention to the loss of life in Iraq and to encourage voters in the 7th Congressional District to vote for Linda Stender [ http://www.bringtroopshomenj.org/campaigns.html ].
On the other hand, as I wrote previously, the September 16th rally is a small part of an ongoing effort to end the war, and locally there are many other ways to participate. South Mountain Peace Action believes that the most effective way for the next few months is to directly help peace candidates themselves, like Linda Stender, in the fall campaign. See www.BeAboutPeace.com for contact information.
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Foj
Citizen
Username: Foger
Post Number: 1747
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 8:16 pm: |
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I'll try to make it on the 16th. I think Linda will make a wonderful Congress woman. |
Michael Paris
Citizen
Username: Publius
Post Number: 47
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 11:56 pm: |
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Looking forward to seeing you again Roger. Keep posting all of those poll results--things are looking good nationwide. How about that Tester guy in Montana, eh?--amazing!
Best regards,
Michael Paris
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Michael Paris
Citizen
Username: Publius
Post Number: 48
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 8:42 am: |
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THE SOUTH ORANGE-MAPLEWOOD COMMITTEE TO STOP THE WAR invites you to participate in a major anti-war demonstration:
WHEN: Saturday, September 16th, from 12 Noon to 4 PM
WHERE: Town Green (Near the Train Station), Summit, New Jersey
WHAT: A Reading of the Names
WHY: To bear witness to the human costs of the war, to honor the dead, and to remind citizens that U.S. Congressman Mike Ferguson (R-7th District) supported and still supports the Bush Administration's immoral and disastrous war in Iraq.
We will gather at the Maplewood Train Station before the event, and then proceed by train to Summit. Beginning at 12 Noon in Summit, veterans, family members of military personnel, and volunteers will read the names of every serviceperson killed in the war in Iraq, along with the names of some of the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians who have been killed.
The South Orange-Maplewood Committee to Stop the War has joined with Military Families Speak Out (www.mfso.org), as well as several other New Jersey anti-war groups, in the coalition sponsoring this event. The larger group is called to form the New Jersey Coalition to Bring the Troops Home Now.
If you wish to volunteer to help, or for more information, email: info@bringtroopshomenj.org, or SOMAStopthewar@yahoo.com
Michael Paris
SOMA Stop the War
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