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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5821
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 6:05 pm: | 
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Before you talk any more about the fantasized unanimity of "liberals" in granting Bush war powers, check the record. 21 Senate Dems voted against it, and 126 Dems in the House. The best you can say is that the Democrats were divided.
After the clusterf*** of lies and incompetence that is our Iraqi policy, there will be no such division over any Iran Resolution that may come down the line.
And no, "winning and election" is not what I mean by a mandate. 50% + 1 is not a mandate. LBJ in 1964 had a mandate, as did FDR in 1936. Nixon had a mandate in 1972. Bush has no such thing. He may act like he has one, and he may be getting away with it for now, but he does not have one.
Stay off the newspeak, "orwellian" doesn't become you. |
S.L.K. 2.0
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 2074
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 8:48 pm: |
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notey-
you have been on some high horse lately, huh?
if you are so upset about the 10 of thousands of lives lost in Iraq then why are you not storming the halls of Congress demanding justice?
What excuse do you have, didn't want to put all those miles on your Prius or you couldn't bare missing a gig?
or just jump on the train to the city. Dubya is there right now, demand to see him and tell him how you feel.
Just whine about it on an internet, such courage...
-slk
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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1510
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 9:22 pm: |
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tom,
Okay the Dems were divided then. Either way, they gave us neo-cons exactly what we wanted. As for Iran, they will do what they always do, give in again.
What will be very interesting, and have me laughing, is if Hillary wins in '08 and then enters into some type of armed conflict with Iran. What will you peacenik libs do then? No matter which party is in the White House or controls Congress there is a battle with Iran looming and you libs can't stop it.
As for the mandate question, it is just an exercise in verbosity. Bush has done and is currently doing whatever he wants and Congress is doing nothing to stop him. That is my idea of a mandate. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5824
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 9:30 pm: |
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That's exactly what Newspeak is, an exercise in verbosity. Your idea of a mandate is faulty. The anthrax killer of 2001 is still out there, and nobody has done anything to stop him. Does he have a mandate? Bad example, he only targeted liberals, maybe he does have a mandate.
But seriously, congress is cowed and whipped like a rented mule.
Your Hillary theory depends on too many ifs. IF she's the nominee and IF she's elected and IF there's a conflict with Iran (what KIND of conflict) and IF it can only be resolved by force. Throw into the mix the IF of who controls congress.
So yes, it will be interesting. If if if if and if.
I know I've asked this before, but do you actually have any specific political beliefs that you ever talk about? |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5833
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 9:30 pm: |
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Quote:notey-
you have been on some high horse lately, huh?
if you are so upset about the 10 of thousands of lives lost in Iraq then why are you not storming the halls of Congress demanding justice?
What excuse do you have, didn't want to put all those miles on your Prius or you couldn't bare missing a gig?
or just jump on the train to the city. Dubya is there right now, demand to see him and tell him how you feel.
Just whine about it on an internet, such courage...
-slk
Notehead has an opinion (heck, we all do, especially if we are posting in "All Politics").
And, we come here to talk. You don't seem to appreciate that fact.
Talking about things, and spreading information, is the "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" part of the internet.
Anybody who belittles someone for talking or writing, is participating in the attempts to shut down discussion, to shut down information, and to shut down real communication.
If you think Notehead is wrong, tell him so. Back it up. Give some cites, some links, some facts.
But don't come to a message board, and tell people to stop talking on a message board.
That having been said, if you have an explanation for why our executive branch has been misleading us (as the Senate Intelligence Report clearly shows), we'd love to hear it. Otherwise, some people may think that you're trying to discourage discussion now that damning information has come to light.
Get back to us on that. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5886
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 10:01 pm: |
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tom -- if 26 Democrats in the Senate voted against the war, that means quite a few voted for it. The best we can most accurately say is the vote for the war was bipartisan. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1511
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 10:05 pm: |
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tom,
I guess by your definition I'd have to answer no.
I don't come to MOL to pound away on my political beliefs. I know what they are and live by them. Unlike many posters I don't feel the need to make this board about me, me, me and what I believe. I simply enjoy commenting on the political evironment. What I believe matters very little. I've said many times, I'm a pro-choice neo-con, so I gather you probably don't need me telling you what I believe. Let's just discuss the political scene. Unfortunately, this board has become nothing but Bush bashing which offers nothing of substance and after 6 years has lost its luster. I haven't posted much lately because the board has been terribly boring. At least the Repubs are starting to fight back so maybe we'll have some more interesting threads coming soon. This little docudrama had a week shelf life and will be forgotten by Wednesday. All the impeachment talk and resignation talk has died down. All the supposed "illegal" issues have died down, Fitzmas is long past, and we have no current scandals. As I said long ago, this midterm election is no different than any others. The party that gets their people out will win.
Hopefully something interesting will pop up soon. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3934
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 10:19 pm: |
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FYI:
I was literally on the phone with Biden's office, pleading. I know how my reps betrayed me. I don't like it any more than you think I do.
Feingold, Wellstone, they were with us. One is gone, the other just hopes. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1513
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 10:30 pm: |
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tulip,
At least you are honest enough to admit what is obvious. Please help me remind all your liberal brethren that Bush didn't take us to war. Bush and a large contigent of complicit liberal Democrats did.
Of course, I'm glad they did because I believe it was and is the right thing to do, but that is unimportant. What is important is that you libs realize who you are truly mad with. Tulip understands. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5826
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 10:35 pm: |
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Half the Dems voted for it, yes. A lot of them have recanted since then, and Lieberman has paid a steep price for not. This greatly displeased conservatives, but it's pretty strong evidence that libs know what they're angry about and who is responsible.
But all but one or two Republicans voted for it. So when you're average liberal looks at the scale -- all the Republicans on one side, half the Democrats on the other -- it's pretty clear which side is nowhere near reflecting your values. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1514
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 10:46 pm: |
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I agree tom. They reflect my values, maybe not yours. But we differ on political philosophy so I understand this. Let's have an election and see where the country as a whole stands.
As for Lieberman, yes, he's paid a price. He should have done what many other libs did and that is flip flop. It would have gotten him back in the good graces. That is what makes me chuckle at the Dems and the libs. They allow words to have more sway than action. Just because a politician now says they are sorry doesn't change their action (vote) and it's consequences. So as an outsider to Democratic party inner workings, if you make a vote against your constituents and then say "my bad" you will continue to get elected. If you make a vote against your constituents and say "I stand by my vote" then you get bounced. That is a clear example why the libs have been thrown from power and all the king flip floppers have been whipped by a half man, half monkey.
Not to sound unreasonable, I know us cons have a ton of this type of talk versus action as well, but on something as big as a freakin war I haven't seen it on our side. We may double speak on many issues, but not going to war. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5828
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 11:00 pm: |
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There is no virtue in making a mistake and stubbornly intransigently insisting that it was not a mistake. You can use the oh-so-very-2004 buzzphrase "flip flop" all you want, but if you take the wrong ramp onto 78 it really doesn't matter how strong and plainspoken you are or how strongly you insist on staying the course or that you really meant to get on that ramp or that when your wife let you drive she gave you a mandate; you're going to end up in Pennsylvania and not New York.
The Democrats have learned that they were bamboozled by manipulated and cherrypicked intelligence, and that they were suckered into believing that aluminum tubes were centrifuges and weather stations were biological weapons factories. They realize now that they were misled, given the wrong directions, and they want to turn around and get back on track toward the original destination. And I believe they can get there.
The Republicans are going to end up having breakfast in Harrisburg, insisting that it is actually Manhattan. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1515
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 11:14 pm: |
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Now, we're back to partisanship.
Your boys got on exactly the correct on ramp. They made speech after speech about the virtue of that on ramp and used pretty charts and graphs to explain why they took that exit.
Are you really believing that grown experienced politicians took an on ramp they shouldn't have? If you truly believe this then you should throw them out of your party for being pathetic morons.
As for eating breakfast in Harrisburg, no, we will have breakfast in Saddam's palaces with our troops. We knew where we were going and we got there. If your boys got lost then get them lo-jack. But don't blame us because they don't have a soul.
And if they can make such a mistake on a vote about going to war, what other mistakes are your boys making on much less important votes. I hope they're not members of the BCS. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5829
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 11:35 pm: |
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See, we were all told it had to do with Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. To quote President Bush just last week, the relationship between Saddam and 9/11 is 'nothing.' Fighting Saddam may be the destination you had in mind, but it's not where the rest of us were told we were going. We were told the ramp we got on would take us to the people behind 9/11. Just like I said, you're insisting you're somewhere that you're not.
But thank God there are some people who can admit they made a mistake and not insist that the pigeon-brained things they've done were all right all along. I'll take someone who screws something up and admits it over someone who screws something up and insists they'd screw it up all over again if they could any day.
The Taliban is regaining strength, Osama has safe haven in Pakistan, opium production is way up and our entire army is bogged down fighting a bunch of car bombers 5000 miles away. Mission accomplished. Enjoy your waffles. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3831
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 11:06 am: |
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SLK, on previous occasions I have answered your question about what actions I've taken to correct this administration's mistakes. And you know what? I've also asked you to respond in kind, and you never have. So can the crap.
I'm still tickled by the way you have to mention my Prius all the time. There's plenty to read into that. |
Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 3631
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 11:24 am: |
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Notey--you doing "bare" gigs now? How come SLK gets invited to these revealing performances and I don't? |
S.L.K. 2.0
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 2082
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 11:30 am: |
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"Half the Dems voted for it, yes. A lot of them have recanted since then..."
So i guess that lets them off the hook then? Who would of guessed? Recant to save political face has merits, one being excused from responsibility of one's decision.
At least recanting appears to be better than the "I got a different intelligence report than the Prez" BS...
-SLK |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5831
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 12:10 pm: |
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Well what's the alternative, voting for the Republican candidates who didn't? Like I said, I'll take the guy who admits a mistake over the guy who says he'd screw up again any day. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1517
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 12:20 pm: |
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Your missing the point. The Republicans didn't make a mistake. We did what we said we were going to do.
If you have two sides, one side has not made a mistake and the other side has made a mistake but then apologized, who would you trust baby sitting your kid? The one who is great at apologizing or the one who doesn't have to apologize. (Sorry sir, I didn't realize he shouldn't play with knives. I promise to not let him near them again. Now what about his playing with needles..)
Now keep in mind, I realize this is just a pure message board exercise. I actually have no problem with flip flopping Democrats. They are their own worst political enemy which benefits my side. They continue to give us neo-cons ammo with which to show the American people. If you want to continue to support non-liberal liberals then I'm all for it. Believe me, I've supported non-conservative conservatives in the past so I have already learned my lesson. Eventually you Dems will catch on. Of course when Leiberman wins in Connecticut it will really show you how impotent your national committee has become (as if losing to a half man half monkey twice in a row wasn't enough). |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 2095
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 12:24 pm: |
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"The Republicans didn't make a mistake. We did what we said we were going to do."
The republicans said they were going to completely f-ck up Iraq after "mission accomplished?" I must have missed them saying that. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5834
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 12:27 pm: |
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Well if your side did what they said they were going to do, they rationalized it to everyone else based on false evidence. Not to put too fine a point on it, but they lied.
So again, vote for the guy who admits he made a mistake and believed the lies? Or for the guys who'd lie to us all over again. The guy who said, "sorry I didn't realize he shouldn't play with knives" or the guy who says "I meant to give him that knife and tomorrow I'll give him an axe"?
Flip-flop is a meaningless buzzword. It's really tiresome already. People have to make compromises and adjust their positions and tactics and change direction all the time. That's life. Circumstances change, new information becomes available. Deciding on something and sticking with it no matter what isn't virtuous or even smart. It's actually closer to what wise old Ben Franklin said,
Quote:The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1519
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 12:51 pm: |
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tom,
We just disagree. President Bush never said one time we were going to Iraq because they were responsible for 9/11. You just can't stand the fact that Bush took his message of the global war on terrorism to the American people and it worked, and your liberal reps didn't stop it. And how did the American people reward the Admin? They re-elected them and gave us even more seats in Congress. It is the Dems trying to re-write history which is fine by me. Why you guys are re-writing we are making. I just can't wait until you Dems take over nothing this November. If a tree falls in the woods.... Priceless. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 2097
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 12:58 pm: |
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"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
What about writing the same thing over and over?
What color is your little cheerleader outfit today, Southerner? Rah rah rah. Go Bush! Yeah! |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5837
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 1:08 pm: |
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Oh come on Southerner, Bush connects Iraq with 9/11 almost every time he opens his mouth. Maybe he hasn't explicitly said so, and I'll give him credit for being coy. But there's no question he has tried to get the public to accept the connection and according to the latest polls a shameful majority still believe it. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 2098
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 1:12 pm: |
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Of course Bush has linked Saddam to 9-11 without saying it explicitly. Bush was exploiting this tragedy for political gain and personal fortune before the second plane hit.
Southerner loves that, of course. Then again, Southerner loves Nascar. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1524
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 1:14 pm: |
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He didn't have to be coy with the American people. He had the help of the liberals who supported him. So we are back to the beginning. Elected liberal politicians agreed with or were bamboozled by a half man half monkey. No matter how you slice, I got what I wanted - tax cuts and Saddam. Not a bad Prez. You guys should elect one some day and see how it feels.
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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5840
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 1:15 pm: |
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So why did you have such a hard-on for Saddam back in '02? I understand Bush's obsession -- the attempted assassination of his dad plus the whole oedipal thing -- but what's at the root of yours? |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3935
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 1:10 pm: |
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Southerner, excuse me. You have to realize, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that the liberals are unpatriotic because they challenge Bush, on one hand, and on the other say they are "flip-floppers" who change their tune about Iraq depending upon the electorate and the polls. It is possible that some liberal Congresspeople voted for the Iraq "initiative" because they did not want to cross the President during a time of crisis, and they genuinely thought of this as the patriotic approach. When I called the Biden office (and he was extremely in favor of calling out the WMD searchers and bring in the troops) they explained that they were concerned with Hussein's genocidal behaviors and tendencies historically, and this was their reason for supporting Bush. I didn't agree, but who am I, anyway, and they just really didn't care what some old Jersey woman was saying.
It seems that those Republicans who prefer that Bush not come to their states to campaign are the real flip-floppers in all this. There was such roaring support for Bush in 2000 and 2004, all the way through the past year or so, and now the Republicans have flip-flopped on Bush as the polls leave Bush in the dust. See Santorum, Kean, the list is endless.
In any case, watch your name-calling, because although some Democrats do not have the most perfect record on Iraq, many Republicans have stuck to a tune the nation no longer sings, and are actually now out of touch with their electorate. Truly, which is worse, moving and changing with the people, or sticking to the views the people had in the past, but no longer have?
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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 1527
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 7:04 pm: |
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tulip,
I think you have me confused with another poster. Please tell what name calling I have done on this thread. Also, I have never, ever, ever, said Democrats or liberals are unpatriotic, ever. Do a search if you don't believe me. That is not my style. I may rail against libs and their philosophy but I don't call people unpatriotic. I've said many times, we have different views of governmental philosophy. You should work hard to promote yours and I will work hard to promote mine. Neither of us are unpatriotic and I don't mind you libs going after Bush. We went after Clinton didn't we. I will however comment that you guys aren't nearly as good as us. After 6 years the only scalp you have is Libby and he hasn't even formally been convicted of anything.
As for the Repubs flip flopping, I'll grant you some points on that. Although asking an unpopular Pres in a particular district to stay away makes good sense to me and isn't a real flip flop. Bush has been down to my neck of the woods several times over the last few months with no problems.
As for the comment about a tune the nation no longer sings, we'll see if that is an accurate statement come November. The beauty of politics is that it's not like the college football polls with no playoff. We will know in about 60 days who is right. You libs take back congress then I'll say I misread the tea leaves and you were right. Us Repubs keep Congress and I hope you are big enough to do the same. Although, I'm not holding my breath because I never heard it after the last 3 elections. Get with tom because he is already planning the Democratic losing party theme about cheating. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5841
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 9:26 pm: |
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depends. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3833
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 1:11 pm: |
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SLK, I'll ask you again: what have YOU done to try to correct things that you think the government is doing wrong? If you are not a reflexive Bush-fellator, then you must have some issues that you would prefer to see the administration handle differently. |
