| Author |
Message |
    
notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 1461
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 9:53 am: |     |
What did we learn from the conventions?
We learned that convention speeches are one of the worst ways to assess a candidate's fitness for office.
It's great that Kerry and Bush can both read proclamations and platitudes from a teleprompter. Somehow, I just don't feel that this is a key qualification.
Certainly the DNC outclassed the RNC by far in terms of comportment. I know style doesn't count for much in the eyes of Republicans anyway. Kerry's team is stupid to push this military service thing so hard. And Bush's team is a bunch of weasels for acting as if 9/11 was their personal property and running a campaign based on fearmongering. |
Wilkanoid
Citizen
Username: Cseleosida
Post Number: 226
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 10:05 am: | |
From an apolitical observer, it seems to me that conventions are a waste of time and money.
|
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 761
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 10:49 am: | |
What I learned form both of the conventions:
I learned that one candidate has a strategic vision for the peace, safety, security, and liberty of all the people in the world. One candidate believes that the US is the promoter of freedom and democracy in the world and that he believes (as I do) that free countries are less likely to sponsor terrorists, and free countries allow their people to prosper. I learned that one candidate will not wait until we are attacked before defending this countries interests. I learned that one candidate believes in the power and promise of America.
I learned that the other candidate was in Vietnam. |
Face
Real Name
Username: Face
Post Number: 356
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 11:56 am: | |
Not only was that candidate in Viet Nam, he was also in Cambodia. Well...at least he says he was.
But did you know that he was in Viet Nam? |
Duncan
Real Name
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 2784
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 12:17 pm: | |
Did you also know that at age 40 GWB just up and quit drinking and that has no bearing on what he does now? "I did not have a perfect youth" Or that he wont talk about it?
Come on people. How about we talk about the present for a while. We know Pres. Bush was flying produce around. And Kerry was in Vietnam. Nuff said. They each did what they thought was right.
I want to know how our deficit is gonna get fixed.
I want to know how, with all the security in place, protesters still managed to get into MSG.
I want to know that when my son is my age the air wont be so polluted that we all have to wear masks when we leave the house. Since it was our own beloved president who said "It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it."
I want to know how we are going to extricate ourselves from the mess that is Iraq.
I want to know how we can use the vast intellectual and entreprenurial resources to become less depenedant on foreign oil.
I want to know how things are going to be, not how they were.
While we are on it I think it is downright hysterical to read this quote from his handlers in 1998...
"I think the American people are tired of this kind of 'gotcha' politics. They're tired of this kind of last-minute dirty trick, and I think the Democrats owe the American people an explanation."
Man oh Man so it was the Democrats who taught Dubbya the Gotcha politics that he used on McCain and is trying on Kerry. Thats rich. |
entertainer
Citizen
Username: Entertainer
Post Number: 170
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 12:23 pm: | |
The regularly scheduled TV shows aren't so bad after all. |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1006
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 1:10 pm: | |
I learned that one candidate has a strategic vision for the peace, safety, security, and liberty of all the people in the world.
John Kerry! Don't be fooled by simpletons whose depth of thought ends with slogans like "freedom against terrorism" or declarations of "war on terror", which the flipflopper-in-chief has already admitted publicly cannot be won.
One candidate believes that the US is the promoter of freedom and democracy in the world and that he believes (as I do) that free countries are less likely to sponsor terrorists, and free countries allow their people to prosper.
You don't want the the dummy from Texas, then. He's forgotten past U.S. government support for terrorist groups in Latin America and the Middle East.
Electing John Kerry and John Edwards will free America of this dangerous idiot, and a free America will support international justice instead of terrorists.
I learned that one candidate will not wait until we are attacked before defending this countries interests.
Good point. The cokehead-in-chief piddled around with missile defense and other silly diversions right up until September 11. Must have been a rough moment when party ended (explains the stunned look with My Pet Goat).
I learned that one candidate believes in the power and promise of America.
Hope is on the way, friend! America can and will do better! |
singlemalt
Citizen
Username: Singlemalt
Post Number: 290
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 1:16 pm: | |
Kerry is toast. A+ for Karl Rove and the Republicans. The anger shown here this morning is proof possitve the message came across.
If Kerry had someone who knew anything about politics running his campaign this would not even be close. Kerry looked like a desperate cry baby having a midnight rally talking about VIETNAM AGAIN!
Idiots. |
Mark Fuhrman
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 584
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 1:19 pm: | |
I learned that the Republicans are more scared about Kerry than I thought. They mentioned his name more times than almost any other topic. Villifying Kerry was the central theme of almost every speech. By this measure, for Republicans, Kerry is more important than jobs, more important than Osama Bin Laden, more important than health care. Then again, it could have just been clever editing by the liberal media. |
singlemalt
Citizen
Username: Singlemalt
Post Number: 293
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 1:29 pm: | |
You are missing the point. The RNC wasn't trying to get Mark Fuhrman or any other firmly decided Kerry voters to switch to GWB's side. The fact you didn't like the convention was because they didn't care about trying to please you. They were trying to get the undecided voters and moderate/conservative Democrats to reconsider Bush. In addition, they threw enough red meat out there to fire up the base. They accomplished all three tasks. Kerry and the DNC failed in this effort and was the reason for the historically small bump in the polls after their convention. Most post-convention polls already out show a signigicant bump for GWB. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 150
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 1:35 pm: | |
They were trying to get the undecided voters and moderate/conservative Democrats to reconsider Bush.
And what on earth was moderate about that convention? It was wall to wall, attack attack attack. Bush's speech, while generally uplifting in tone, was way too little, way too late. Rove has given up on the swing vote, and instead is focusing on getting those evangelicals fired up...hence the cross podium. A truly sickening, calculated, and offensive display, if I've ever seen one. |
singlemalt
Citizen
Username: Singlemalt
Post Number: 295
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 1:44 pm: | |
Then you tell me where the 6% bump will come from in the next week? It certainly is not from the base. Bush already had them locked up.
If you already hate (that's not a strong word it's the truth) Bush then your analysis of the convention is dead-on. However, the convention was not for you.
The Zogby poll shows a 9% swing in Bush's favor through Wednesday of this week. I think that is way too high and most polls will settle with a 6% Bush advantage. In a tight race, that's a significant move for a convention that was given only 1 hour of primetime coverage on 3/4 days and is 3x's the bump Kerry received after the DNC (I know the DNC received the same coverage but I thought the low bump may have beem due to limited coverage).
|
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 151
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 1:51 pm: | |
Then you tell me where the 6% bump will come from in the next week? It certainly is not from the base. Bush already had them locked up.
I disagree. If there was no need to shore up the base, why all the red meat? He has the voters in his base locked up, but if he wants to win this thing, he has to get the unregistered voters in his base to register, and then get out to the polls in November.
Convention bumps mean nothing unless they can be sustained...anyone would get a boost in the polls with all that free media. The question is not how big a bump will Bush get...he got the mother of all bumps on 9/11, and, much like his father, he squandered it by being out of touch with what the country wants and needs. The question is, can he sustain it? And the answer is, we'll see. |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1007
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 1:53 pm: | |
It's far from over. Nothing said at the convention had any staying power, and anyone swayed by it can be regained by something more solid.
The ball is in Kerry's court and it's time for him to return it with enough force to win the game. |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 765
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 1:55 pm: | |
And what on earth was moderate about that convention?
Zell Miller
Arnold
Rudy
Steele
McCain
Given up on the swing vote, what a laugh. Miller fired up the swing vote, moderate, hawkish Dems (about 30% of the party) are seriously considering Bush now.
The RNC was all about inclusion and the fact that the GOP can differ in opinion on social topics but remain steadfast on matters of national security. It appealed to the base and the swinf moderate repubs beautifully.
The focus was also on Midwest Dems, Reagan Dems, and moderate/conservative dems dissillusioned with the liberal swing the DNC has taken.
It was executed perfectly. |
singlemalt
Citizen
Username: Singlemalt
Post Number: 297
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 1:55 pm: | |
Good point on the registered voters. I did not think of that. However, bringing in Zell Miller was intended to attract Democrats. I thought it was effective.
Please no more Zell Miller attacks. I know everyone here hates him. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 2323
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 1:56 pm: | |
The fact that Bush went to Scranton, PA which is a heavily democrat leaning town that is trying to pull itself away from heavy industry points to the fact that the 3 democrats speaking out on behalf of Bush at the RNC means he is totally targeting conservative/Reagan Democrats. Those democrats fired up an already fired up base, but I don't think that was the focus. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 153
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 1:59 pm: | |
Zell Miller
Arnold
Rudy
Steele
McCain
Well, 1 out of 5 ain't bad.
I bet you think Bill Clinton is a raving liberal too, right? |
singlemalt
Citizen
Username: Singlemalt
Post Number: 298
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 2:00 pm: | |
>>The ball is in Kerry's court and it's time for him to return it with enough force to win the game.<<
He's already back on serve with Vietnam.
All Kerry needs to talk about are jobs, gas prices, stem cells, abortion, health care, the environment, etc.
As I've said, the Kerry campaign is run by idiots. Who would send their candidate out in the middle of the night after the RNC to talk about Vietnam again? Dumb, dumb and dumber. |
Maple Man
Citizen
Username: Mapleman
Post Number: 258
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 2:01 pm: | |
single,
by your math, Zogby's poll also shows a 9% swing to "unsure" in the last two weeks.
but rather than compare to 2 wks. ago, the more valid comparison point is the first half of July, before both conventions.
Zogby shows Bush/Cheney right where they were then, at 46%.
Kerry/Edwards on the other hand, has slipped a bit from 48% to 44%. Most likely that's a result of several weeks of harsh attacks on him, not just the convention.
The strategy of the Republicans is to do just what the Zogby poll says they've been able to do to some extent - move people back from Kerry supporters to "unsure." It's too late to convince many people that Bush deserves reelection if they don't already believe it.
This is going to be the nastiest, dirtiest election of modern times (although probably still not as bad as 19th century elections). And the reason for that is simple - Bush has only one chance to win, and that is by convincing enough people that John Kerry is an even worse choice than he is. If they can disgust enough people with Kerry, and suppress turnout sufficiently, they can squeak by.
The reason this is true is simple. Look at all the polls that report among both "likely" voters and all registered voters. Kerry does better in virtually every poll among all registered voters. The key will be total turnout. The higher the %, the better his chance.
Conversely, for Bush, it's all about hoping people stay home on Election Day. |
singlemalt
Citizen
Username: Singlemalt
Post Number: 300
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 2:08 pm: | |
>>by your math, Zogby's poll also shows a 9% swing to "unsure" in the last two weeks.<<
That's good for Bush too.
By the way, the 9pts I refer to is compared to Kerry directly in the poll taken by Zogby 2 weeks ago. Kerry was leading by 7 pts in the last poll and he is now traling by 2 (7+2=9).
>>Kerry/Edwards on the other hand, has slipped a bit from 48% to 44%. Most likely that's a result of several weeks of harsh attacks on him, not just the convention. <<
It's because they are too stupid and keep talking about Vietnam.
>>The strategy of the Republicans is to do just what the Zogby poll says they've been able to do to some extent - move people back from Kerry supporters to "unsure." It's too late to convince many people that Bush deserves reelection if they don't already believe it.<<
Exactly.
|
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 155
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 2:12 pm: | |
Who would send their candidate out in the middle of the night after the RNC to talk about Vietnam again?
You keep saying this...did you actually watch the whole speech? I saw as much as CNN felt the need to cover. There were a few opening remarks about Vietnam...two, as I recall. The speech was far from "about" Vietnam.
Read some of the coverage. Come on, the Czech Republic is running away with this one...maybe the reason you're so unimpressed with Kerry is that you're not paying attention. |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1008
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 2:29 pm: | |
That's 9:00 p.m. in California. The country doesn't end at the Delaware River, you know. |
singlemalt
Citizen
Username: Singlemalt
Post Number: 301
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 2:30 pm: | |
I did watch the speech (as much as Fox would show and then I switched to CNN and they cut it off too). The highlights shown on TV this morning were all Vietnam related.
It was more than "a few opening remarks". He ripped Bush on his service (he does that a lot but nobody can ever question his service) and then ripped into Cheney for his 5 deferments. John Kerry is 100% accurate except neither Cheney nor Bush attacked his actual service in Vietnam. In fact, they both said he served with honor. They quoted his voting record in the Senate as the reason he should not be commander in chief. Kerry is getting setup. Here’s how:
What Kerry said about the vets after returning home is all fair game since Kerry brings up Vietnam at every opportunity. If Kerry thinks the ads running currently showing his testimony after the war are bad, wait until Karl Rove produces an ad the week before the election. It will be devastating but John Kerry to date has made it fair game. The more he talks about his service the more ammunition he is giving the Republicans. I’ve seen his testimony and what he said (all of it). It is not good for Kerry.
|
singlemalt
Citizen
Username: Singlemalt
Post Number: 302
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 2:31 pm: | |
It was midnight in Ohio where he was but good point on the west coast. |
Maple Man
Citizen
Username: Mapleman
Post Number: 259
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 2:33 pm: | |
I didn't stay up for Kerry's speech, but his website has the substance of his address in Ohio last night, if not the verbatim text. It's here:
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0902e.html
Not surprisingly, NONE of it is about Vietnam. It is a point-by-point response to the president's speech. |
Maple Man
Citizen
Username: Mapleman
Post Number: 260
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 2:37 pm: | |
instead of faulting Kerry, why not fault Fox and CNN for showing only the 10 sec bite about Vietnam, and ignoring the remainder of Kerry's speech?
TV news is dead set on keeping viewers in the dark on any issues of substance. |
singlemalt
Citizen
Username: Singlemalt
Post Number: 304
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 2:42 pm: | |
I posted this on the wrong thread... 
Here's how it was covered by Reuters....
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&u=/nm/20040903/ts_nm/campaign_kerr y_dc_3&printer=1 |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 156
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 3:09 pm: | |
You'll note this up at the top:
Thu Sep 2, 8:31 PM ET
indicating the story was filed before the speech took place. They released only those two excerpts ahead of time, presumably to ratchet up the interest.
And you'll also note that the article contains the two references to Vietnam that I recalled hearing when I watched it live. Since the reporter didn't have the rest of the speech, I guess we can't blame her for not covering it. |
Maple Man
Citizen
Username: Mapleman
Post Number: 261
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 3:24 pm: | |
CNN.com and the NY Times website did a better job of covering the entire speech. |
Duncan
Real Name
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 2786
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 3:54 pm: | |
quote:Given up on the swing vote, what a laugh. Miller fired up the swing vote, moderate, hawkish Dems (about 30% of the party) are seriously considering Bush now.
omniscient are we Michael?? man the power of the republican party is stunning. |
singlemalt
Citizen
Username: Singlemalt
Post Number: 308
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 3:58 pm: | |
I doubt the huge jump Bush is getting after the convention is from his base. There are a lot of Democrats that are with the Republicans on issues of national security and fiscal issues. That is where the majority of the swing is coming from.
|
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 768
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 3, 2004 - 4:07 pm: | |
Duncan, no, I'm not... but pollster Frank Luntz on MSNBC showed a serious swing by moderate dems after Millers speech. |
Ed May
Citizen
Username: Edmay
Post Number: 2131
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 4, 2004 - 11:00 am: | |
I learned that for a $500 contribution to the NJGOP, and voluntering to the NY organizing committee a few hours a day (helping delegates on and off busses), that one could have the most amazing multi-level experience while participating in democracy in action!
From my first volunteer training session on Saturday afternoon to the last party that ended in the wee hours of Friday it was a total experience for all the senses. Plus I got to meet some really cool people : Christie Whitman, Tom Kean Sr, all six NJ Congressmen, all six candidates for Governor in NJ, Michael Moore, Michael Reagan, Curtis Slewa, tons of NYC cops, Jersey troopers, Secret Service, protesters of every ilk, delegates from as fair away as Americam Samoa and the Northern Marianas.
I learned that America is still - and by far - the greatest country that has ever existed. |
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page