| Author | Message | ||
     J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 1569 Registered: 3-2003 |
Based on recent news reports about this group, they are based in Pakistan or maybe Afghanistan. In July they tried to assassinate a pro-American Pakistani prime minister designate, Shaukat Aziz. See: http://www.globalterroralert.com/islambouli0804.pdf I don't know why this particular outfit would be turning to Russia now, however. | ||
| musicme Citizen Username: Musicme Post Number: 765 Registered: 5-2001  |
I suspect they turned to Russia A) because they are closer than USA and B) because Russia has sent all their cops to Madison Square Garden.  | ||
| Duncan Real Name Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 2730 Registered: 12-2001  |
J.Crohn.. why the condescension? I am perfectly aware that the Russians are after Mikhail Khodorkhovsy. HEs young, about my age, the richest man in the country and a thorn in Putin's side. That doesnt mean you have to say "you are completely unaware of...." Jump off that horse. I merely wrote what I had heard on the radio in the car for God's sake. What a bitchy post. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 1573 Registered: 3-2003 |
"J.Crohn.. why the condescension?" Well, because of this nonsense, Duncan: "I dont know who you think I am or what you thought I was posting but I dont joke about stuff like that, and I dare say the news I was listening to thought they were reporting a joke." Really now. I did not insult you. I did not question the veracity of what you reported. And the subject of who you are has never actually crossed my mind. "I am perfectly aware that the Russians are after Mikhail Khodorkhovsy." They're not "after" him. He's in jail. "I merely wrote what I had heard on the radio in the car for God's sake" Nah, you posted a bunch of defensive, sanctimonious shite about what's OK to joke about because you didn't understand what I meant, that's all. Kindly jump off your own horse. And if you don't want to get condescended to, don't be so quick to pick a fight over nothing. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 1574 Registered: 3-2003 |
Music: "...because Russia has sent all their cops to Madison Square Garden." Heh! You might be onto something there... But I guess what I was wondering was whether Russia might recently have handed over some mujahideen to the US or something. That, apparently, is what got this Islambouli group all pissed off at the Pakistani gubmint. But maybe they're just trying to make a splash and, as you imply, the Russians happened to be hittable. | ||
| Duncan Real Name Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 2733 Registered: 12-2001 |
Yup ..You are right. I misread your It was a joke post. I reacted poorly and you slammed me. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I feel much better now. But sanctomonious crap like.
doesnt work either. I misread your post and will avoid any more of your withering attacks  by saying that from now on you are right. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 1576 Registered: 3-2003 |
The latest is that the explosives used to bring down the Russian planes has, according to the Russians, been used repeatedly in the past by Chechen terrorists. Moreover, the claim by the Islambouli Brigades is looking a little thin to me at the moment. On the one hand, it's in keeping with the sort of attack that hit Spain just before an election. (Interestingly, Chechens just yesterday elected the Russian favorite in a landslide). On the other hand, the terrorists on board the doomed planes were reportedly Chechen women. Not that Chechen separatists haven't been allied with foreign mujahideen for a long time, but I'm wondering if the Islambouli Brigades, which until a couple of months ago was unknown and has only ever concerned itself with Pakistan, was simply trying to latch onto some glory. Wouldn't be surprised if it turned out they had nothing to do with this attack. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 1582 Registered: 3-2003 |
Ah, here we go. It does appear to be Islambouli, allied with Chechens. Not only did they claim the plane downings, they've now claimed the bombing in a subway in Moscow yesterday. And today--very bad news--a grade school has been captured: "MOSCOW (AP) - Attackers wearing suicide-bomb belts seized a Russian school in a region bordering Chechnya on Wednesday, taking hostage about 400 people - half of them children - and threatening to blow up the building. At least two people were killed, one of them a parent who resisted an attacker. "The attack was the latest violence blamed on secessionist Chechen rebels, coming a day after a suicide bomber killed 10 people in the capital and a week after near-simultaneous explosions caused two Russian planes to crash, killing all 90 people on board. "President Vladimir Putin interrupted his working holiday in the Black Sea resort of Sochi and returned to Moscow. On arrival at the airport, he held an immediate meeting with the heads of Russia's Interior Ministry and Federal Security Service, the Interfax news agency said. "The school seizure began after a ceremony marking the first day of the Russian school year, when it was likely that many parents had accompanied their children to the facility which covers grades 1-11. The attackers forced children to stand at the windows and warned they would blow up the school if police tried to storm it, said Alexei Polyansky, a police spokesman for southern Russia. "The ITAR-Tass news agency reported that hostage-takers released 15 children, but Ruslan Ayamov, spokesman for North Ossetia's Interior Ministry told The Associated Press that 12 children and one adult managed to escape after hiding in the building's boiler room. He denied that any hostages were released. "Gunfire broke out after the raid and at least two people were killed, including a father who had brought his child to the school and was shot trying to resist the attackers, said Fatima Khabolova, a spokeswoman for the regional parliament. She said most of the attackers were wearing suicide belts. "An attacker also was killed, and nine people were injured, including three teachers and two police officers, Polyansky said. More gunfire and several explosions were heard about three hours later, the Interfax news agency reported. "Suspicion in both the school attack and the Moscow bombing fell on Chechen rebels or their sympathizers, but there was no evidence of any direct link. ``In essence, war has been declared on us, where the enemy is unseen and there is no front,'' Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said. "The latest violence also appears to be timed around last Sunday's presidential elections in Chechnya, a Kremlin-backed move aimed at undermining support for the insurgents by establishing a modicum of civil order in the war-shattered republic. The previous Chechen president, Akhmad Kadyrov, was killed along with more than 20 others in a bombing on May 9. "The school attackers demanded talks with regional officials and a well-known pediatrician, Leonid Roshal, who aided hostages during the deadly seizure of a Moscow theater in 2002, news reports said. "The hostage-takers also demanded the release of fighters detained over a series of attacks on police facilities in neighboring Ingushetia in June, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported, citing regional officials. Those well-coordinated raids killed more than 90 people." http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20040901%2F08274 02124.htm&sc=1103&flok=NW_5-L2&photoid=20040901MOS07&floc=NW_1-T Note that the demand for release of prisoners parallels the demand by Islambouli in Pakistan, to prevent the extradition of mooj to the US. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 1583 Registered: 3-2003 |
I have lost any sympathy for the Chechen cause that I once might have had. If these pigs blow up 200 children I wouldn't be surprised if Putin hauls off and nukes Chechnya. Or damn near nukes it. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 1584 Registered: 3-2003 |
You all realize, I hope, that this can happen here. It's not just some distant thing that will never touch us. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 1585 Registered: 3-2003 |
Haaretz: "Kazbek Dzantiyev, head of the region's Interior Ministry, said that the hostages have threatened "for every destroyed fighter, they will kill 50 children and for every injured fighter - 20 (children)," the ITAR-Tass news agency reported." | ||
| Earlster Citizen Username: Earlster Post Number: 527 Registered: 8-2003  |
JC, tatally agree with you that there is no sympathy with the Chechen rebels, they have since the beginning been way to violent. The Chechen cause however is a different story. I thing you need to disconnect the majority of the Chechen people (who probably want peace more then anything by now), from the rebels who are looking out for power and control, not the people. On the other hand what I think everyone should learn from this, is that escalating military pressure on terrorists has a way of back firing. Take away their cause and they will loose support. Fight them too violently and this will only increase their base. Sad, but true. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 1586 Registered: 3-2003 |
"The Chechen cause however is a different story. I thing you need to disconnect the majority of the Chechen people (who probably want peace more then anything by now), from the rebels who are looking out for power and control, not the people." Sorry, the consequence of terror is that I reject the cause of those it claims to represent. I reject it because I have no political alternative, since capitulation to the stated aims of terrorists will ensure that both terrorism and tyrrany increase, not decrease. To put a finer point on it, I do not "need" to disconnect things that are inextricably connected. I certainly recognize that the majority of Chechens are not even separatists (let alone terrorists)--just as the majority of Basques are not separatists. But unfortunately, it doesn't matter. "On the other hand what I think everyone should learn from this, is that escalating military pressure on terrorists has a way of back firing." You mean, like the way the French opposed the Iraq invasion but two French hostages are presently in danger of being executed because extremists demand France rescind its (stupid) headscarf ban, or the way eight Nepalese workers in Iraq were just slaughtered like animals by their Islamist abductors despite the fact that Nepal declined to join the US in its military effort, or the way Spain was attacked by terrorists not only before but after it capitulated to al Qaeda demands to withdraw troops from Iraq? Current events do not seem to support your thesis. "Take away their cause and they will loose support." Their cause cannot be taken away, and they will not lose support. Their cause is not a fixed thing--beyond the one fixed aspect of it which is Islamist supremacy. Sad, but true. | ||
| Sylad Citizen Username: Sylad Post Number: 727 Registered: 6-2002 |
Earlster...wow...can't tell if that is you or Kerry talking. | ||
| Earlster Citizen Username: Earlster Post Number: 531 Registered: 8-2003 |
Sylad, thanks for the compliment. JC, looks like we simply have to agree to disagree. Iraq is a quite different example. There was no cause to begin with. We created the cause by invading. Hijackings in Iraq are rampant, not only foreigners are hijacked Iraqis are, too. I think it proofs my thesis, we messed with a rather terrorist free Iraq and now violence there is way out of control. It suddenly attracts foreign fighters and helps build Al Quaedas base. While the real bad guy sits in a cave, and can't stop laughing how stupid the west is. Another example is Israel-Palestine: Couple years ago, Israel and Palestine got closer then they ever have. Israel and Clinton did a great job appeasing the Palestiniens. It worked. Sharon came and admittedly he only reacted to the intifada, but very violently look at the mess the place is now. Israel should take the high road and give in some for the peace and lives of their people, the Palestiniens won't as long as their is prssure on them. I don't agree with Palestinien methods, but I believe this will work better then a wall and military strikes. Spains change of mind right after the Madrid bombings was not a good example, however they should have really never gone into Iraq in the first place since their populace was hugely against it. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 1588 Registered: 3-2003 |
Earlster... Never mind. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 1591 Registered: 3-2003 |
Rescued mother tells of three days in hell 9/3/2004, 2:15 p.m. PT By MIKE ECKEL The Associated Press BESLAN, Russia (AP) — Holding up the corpse of a man just shot dead in front of hundreds of hostages at a Russian school, the rebel — his pockets stuffed with ammunition and grenades — warned: "If a child utters even a sound, we'll kill another one." When children fainted from lack of sleep, food and water, their masked and camouflaged captors simply sneered. In the intolerable heat of the gym, adults implored children to drink their own urine. Hours after escaping alive, a woman who had been taken hostage with her 7-year-old son and her mother spoke of three days of unspeakable horror — of children so wired with fear they couldn't sleep, of captors coolly threatening to kill hostages one by one, of a gymnasium so cramped there was hardly room to move. "We were in complete fear," said Alla Gadieyeva, 24, who spoke to an Associated Press reporter Friday as she lay collapsed in exhaustion on a stretcher outside a hospital. "People were praying all the time and those that didn't know how to pray — we taught them." The woman told her tale after Russian commandos stormed School No. 1 in this southern town, bringing the nation's worst hostage crisis to a shattering end of gunfire and explosions. Alla and her mother, Irina, were in the school courtyard Wednesday seeing off her son, Zaur, on his first day of school when they heard sounds like "balloons popping." She thought the noise was part of school festivities. But then five masked gunmen burst into the courtyard, shooting in the air and ordering people to get inside the building. Children, parents and teachers — Alla estimated there were about 1,000 in all — were corralled into a corner on the ground floor and then herded into the gymnasium. Alla said children whimpered in fear, and all around there was screaming and crying. The hostages were forced to crouch, their hands folded over their heads. For the rebels, the first order of business was confiscating cell phones. They smashed the phones, then delivered a warning: "If we find any mobile phones, we will shoot 20 people all around you." On the first day, people got a tiny bit of water to drink, but no food. After that, Alla said, nothing. When she asked the rebels for water for her mother, they laughed at her. "My mother was terrified, and I thought she was having a heart attack. When I saw my son, my mother ... go unconscious, so tired, so thirsty, I wanted it all to come to an end," she said. "When children began to faint, they laughed," Alla said. "They were totally indifferent." During the ordeal, Zaur became so traumatized that he would flinch whenever someone touched him, or even brushed by him, she said. As with most of the other children, his only spells of sleep were the times he fell unconscious from thirst and exhaustion. When asked how her son would remember the ordeal, Alla replied: "How can a person ever forget it? Would you ever forget it?" As Alla spoke under a grove of spruce trees, she had not yet been reunited with her mother or son, although authorities confirmed to her that they were alive. She recounted how the hostage-takers eventually took off their masks. They had beards, long hair, and spoke with Chechen accents, she said. When children started to faint from thirst, the adults urged them to urinate. It was so they could drink their own urine, Alla said. The gymnasium was quickly transformed into an arsenal of explosives — bombs dangling from the ceiling, set on the floor, strung up on walls. She said they seemed to be homemade, primitive packages containing bolts and nails. "They're not human beings," Alla said. "What they did to us, I can't understand." On Friday, early in the afternoon, explosions erupted without warning, both inside and outside the gym, she said. In the chaos, she couldn't figure out how they were set off. Gunfire followed. As the battle intensified, the rebels betrayed agitation for the first time. "We'll shoot until our guns stop," a rebel announced to the crowd. "And when our guns stop, we'll blow up the building." The hostage-takers began pushing people out of the gym and into the basement. That created an opening for the hostages: They began breaking windows and fleeing. Some pushed children outside. Alla said she helped her son and mother through a window. She didn't manage to get out. For some reason, a 6-year-old boy — whom she didn't know — was drawn to Alla. She held him in her arms. He clung to her, she said, "as if he would never let go." A group of hostages, including Alla and the boy, finally made a rush for a set of doors in the gymnasium. As they fled, she saw bodies of captives strewn on the floor as rebels fought with Russian security troops swarming around school compound. Some Russian soldiers appeared as they reached the doors. "At first I didn't believe it," Alla said. "I thought they were Chechens." Her doubts soon vanished. It's OK, the soldiers told her. "You're home now." As Alla told her tale, townspeople kept coming up, asking her about the fate of their loved-ones. A man, around 20, asked Alla if she knew what had happened to one of the captives, a woman. She's dead, Alla replied. The man bit his lip. He nodded. And then he turned away. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 12007 Registered: 10-2001  |
Tell the Russians. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 1592 Registered: 3-2003 |
And if you don't like Wikipedia, there's always Anatol Lieven: New York Times November 3, 2002 Chechnya: History as Nightmare By ANATOL LIEVEN WASHINGTON — DIRECT responsibility for last month's terrorist attack in Moscow lies with the Chechen militants and Chechen-based international Muslim extremists who carried it out. But its roots are embedded in the history of Chechen-Russian conflict. Chechen resistance to the Russian conquest of the Caucasus, beginning in the 19th century, was prolonged and bloody. Then, in 1944, Stalin deported almost the entire population, roughly 400,000 people, to Central Asia, where many died. This legacy helps explain why Chechen nationalism has been more radical and anti-Russian than that of Russia's other Muslim ethnic minorities. When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, the Chechens, led by Gen. Dzhokhar Dudayev, deposed the old Soviet leadership of the Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Republic and seized power in Grozny, the capital. But there was no real authority, and criminal groups (the so-called Chechen Mafia) and armed radicals dominated. The resulting anarchy was one reason Russia felt that Chechnya, which was never a separate republic, could not become independent. Russia was also determined not to undermine its territorial integrity or to encourage other areas to secede. In 1994, President Boris N. Yeltsin decided that Chechnya must again be under Moscow's control, and later that year began a full military intervention. The war shattered the Chechen economy and left behind armed, unemployed and brutalized young Chechens. Atrocities committed by Russian troops also helped radicalize ordinary Chechens. Moreover, as with the Soviet-Afghan war, the conflict in Chechnya drew militants, and financial support, from across the Islamic world. The militants won local influence and helped the Chechens inflict heavy losses on Russian forces, leading to a 1996 agreement that gave Chechnya quasi-independence. The chief Chechen general, Aslan Maskhadov, was easily elected president — Mr. Dudayev had been killed in a rocket attack — but other warlords and the militants defied him. Although Russia had initially supported President Maskhadov as an alternative to radical commanders like Shamil Basayev, it now views him as unreliable. After the agreement was concluded, Chechnya became a base for kidnappers, who combined greed with hatred of Russia and the West. They kidnapped at least 1,100 people in neighboring areas of Russia, treating the victims with terrible cruelty. In 1998, Islamists joined Chechen commanders and began a jihad to drive Russia from other areas of the Caucasus, including neighboring Dagestan, aiming to create a single Islamic republic. After Russia defeated the jihadis in Dagestan in August 1999, bombs in Moscow and elsewhere killed more than 300 people. The attackers were never satisfactorily identified, but the Russian government blamed radical Chechens and Islamic militants. In October 1999, Russia renewed its military intervention, a decision many analysts believe was driven partly by President Vladimir V. Putin's calculation that it would help him in the 2000 election. However that may be, this savage war seems likely to continue, especially because the divided Chechen resistance makes it hard to believe that, even if the Russian and Chechen governments reached a settlement, peace would follow. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 1593 Registered: 3-2003 |
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/03/international/europe/03CND-RUSS.html?hp=&pagew anted=all&position= |
