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MHD
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Username: Mayhewdrive

Post Number: 1565
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What a pathetically sad news day - 999 American soldiers now killed in Iraq and the budget deficit is now $422 BILLION.

On the positive side, the latest Rasmussen Reports poll now has the race evenly tied again: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Presidential_Tracking_Poll.htm

Sorry, Bushies...this one ain't over, yet.
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mapletop
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Post Number: 22
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Posted on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is definetly not over yet, but the poll is not as close as it looks. Read from Rasmussen on why the poll is currently wrong and that it is likely to be a 4-5 point lead.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Poll%20Differences%20Sept%206.htm
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Sylad
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Username: Sylad

Post Number: 783
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Posted on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The projection is down from an earlier estimate, reason: More tax revenue.

Wonder what caused that?

The Economic Stimulus package that was drafted by this administration.

Other things to consider:

The deficit projected by the nonpartisan CBO would be 3.6 percent of the US gross domestic product (GDP), smaller than the deficits of the mid-1980s and early 1990s relative to the size of the economy.

The new CBO report said that under existing law, the deficit is projected to decline to 348 billion dollars, or 2.8 percent of GDP, in 2005, and that the budget would remain in the red through 2014.

The cumulative deficit for 2005 through 2014 is projected at 2.3 trillion dollars, or 1.5 percent of total GDP.

But analysts point out that the real figures could be sharply different if various tax changes are enacted, including widely expected moves to extend some tax benefits due to expire.
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Madden 11
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Username: Madden_11

Post Number: 182
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sorry to report that solider #1,000 was killed today at around noon, in Eastern Baghdad.

http://icasualties.org/oif/

One thousand. I think I'm going to be sick.
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cjc
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Username: Cjc

Post Number: 2328
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1000 dead in Iraq. That's great for Kerry, but don't chill the champagne yet.
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Madden 11
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Username: Madden_11

Post Number: 188
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1000 dead in Iraq. That's great for Kerry, but don't chill the champagne yet.

1,000 American families shattered, and that's all you can think to say.
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cjc
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Username: Cjc

Post Number: 2330
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 10:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As someone who honors each and every one of these deaths in the pursuit of a safer US and world, I have nothing further to offer and can only repeat myself. I expect anti-Iraqi and anti-US activity to increase as we move towards November.

This figure of 1000 overall US deaths in Iraq do not provide a new talking point or political calculation for me.
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cjc
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Username: Cjc

Post Number: 2331
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Posted on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Try this angle with those actually there. Just poor saps who think they're fighting for your butt, I'm sure they can be convinced Kerry knows the answer. Just pick which of Kerry's answers works so they fall right into line behind him.

U.S. National - AFP


US soldiers in Iraq say 1,000 death toll meaningless

BAQUBA, Iraq (AFP) - The deaths of 1,000 American troops in Iraq since the 2003 invasion to topple Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) has only strengthened US resolve to restore security to the strife-torn country, soldiers said.

Dismissing parallels with the 1961-75 war in Vietnam, officers lashed out at the media for playing the grim-reaper over the mounting casualty toll and failing to appreciate the sacrifices made by each soldier.

"It sucks. The newspapers glorify it. Everyday, reporting the numbers going up and up, trying to push a point," said Captain Gregory Wingard, 39, at the 1st Infantry Division's Camp Warhorse near Baquba, north of Baghdad.

"Sad as it is for those 1,000 families and their friends, they're nothing to the number of Iraqis that get killed trying to defend their own families," he added, smoking a cigar with friends under the stars.

"There's one word you have to push back at them. Gettysburg: 63,000 killed in a single day," said Sergeant Kimberly Snow, 35, from Ohio, refering to the US civil war battle.

The conversation turns to a comrade, a Muslim US soldier who was killed in June when a suicide bomber blew up a car outside the north gate of the base.

"I'm nervous, sure, because you don't know. When I lay down on my rack for the first 10 minutes I'm listening for mortars," said Wingard.


The bombs make him say "I want to get that bastard."

US patrols are considered combat missions and soldiers have to be prepared to the worst every time they roll out of their bases.

"There's always a fear in the back of your head, but you can't let it take over," said Snow, speaking about the soldiers' biggest scourge -- the improvised explosive device, known as IEDs to the army, or a roadside bomb to civilians.

"The scary thing is its not like facing a normal enemy and you've got a good chance of fighting back. You're just tooling down the road and boom there's an explosion," said National Guard Major Tony Quinn, from North Carolina.

"If 1,000 died today, that'd be pretty significant, but its just another number," said 36-year-old Quinn, who is based along the Iran-Iraqi border.

"Every single soldier knows the risk. You do the best you can with your day and don't think about it. If I was to get killed tomorrow by an IED, I would not regret coming over here," said Captain Michael Adams, 37, from Oregon.

"Six months ago people were afraid of their own shadow. Now I've seen kids playing in the park, farmers are out working. Now they can have a chance at rebuilding their country," he added.

"Obviously when you loose people, its a tragic time. But you don't loose morale. It strengthens your resolve," said Specialist Robert Bybee, 21, deployed in Saddam's hometown of Tikrit.

But for several young soldiers, barely old enough to graduate from college or have a beer in a US bar, the horror of war and the separation from loved ones is wearing thin.

"I'm scared even to take a shower in case they mortar us. I want to go home and be with my wife and start a family," said Specialist Luis Cruz, 21, from Puerto Rico, also based near Baquba.





But none of the soldiers accept any similarities with Vietnam, where tens of thousands of soldiers were killed before the United States finally withdrew.

"Once in a while people make comparisons, but I don't think the majority of soldiers feel there are any similarities," said Quinn.

"We are winning the hearts and minds... It's nothing like Vietnam. We're still missing 60,000, 52,000 were killed. We've had 1,000 soldiers die, how can you make a comparison?" said Wingard.

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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 79
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"This figure of 1000 overall US deaths in Iraq do not provide a new talking point or political calculation for me."

"1000 dead in Iraq. That's great for Kerry, but don't chill the champagne yet. "
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cjc
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Username: Cjc

Post Number: 2332
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 10:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"It sucks. The newspapers glorify it. Everyday, reporting the numbers going up and up, trying to push a point," said Captain Gregory Wingard, 39, at the 1st Infantry Division's Camp Warhorse near Baquba, north of Baghdad.
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Kramer
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Username: Kramer

Post Number: 76
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kerry's biggest beef with the war is lack of international support. And it shows in the casualties.

Here's the breakdown:
American: 1001
English: 65
Polish: 10
Danish: 1
Spanish: 11
Italian: 19
Ukrainian: 8
Bulgarian: 6
Thai: 2
Estonian: 1
Salvadoran: 1
Netherlands 2
Slovaks: 3
Latvian: 1
Hungarian: 1
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Montagnard
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Username: Montagnard

Post Number: 1024
Registered: 6-2003


Posted on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 11:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cheney is beginning to sound a little desperate. Let's hope he cracks completely while there's still time.

quote:

DES MOINES, Iowa (CNN) -- A November win by Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry would put the United States at risk of another "devastating" terrorist attack, Vice President Dick Cheney told supporters Tuesday.

Kerry's running mate, Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina, responded by calling Cheney's comments "un-American."

Cheney told Republican supporters at a town hall meeting in Des Moines that they needed to make "the right choice" in the November 2 election.

"If we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again -- that we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States," Cheney said.

"And then we'll fall back into the pre-9/11 mindset, if you will, that in fact these terrorist attacks are just criminal acts and that we're not really at war. I think that would be a terrible mistake for us."

Edwards told reporters that "Dick Cheney's scare tactics crossed the line."

"What he said to the American people was that if you go to the polls in November and elect anyone other than us, and another terrorist attack occurs, then it's your fault," Edwards said during a stop in Chillicothe, Ohio.

"This is un-American. The truth is that it proves once again that they will do anything and say anything to keep their jobs."


Full story on CNN
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Kramer
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Username: Kramer

Post Number: 77
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, September 7, 2004 - 11:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's what Bush said about the coalition in his acceptance speech:
"Our allies also know the historic importance of our work. About 40 nations stand beside us in Afghanistan, and some 30 in Iraq. And I deeply appreciate the courage and wise counsel of leaders like Prime Minister Howard, and President Kwasniewski, and Prime Minister Berlusconi -- and, of course, Prime Minister Tony Blair.

Again, my opponent takes a different approach. In the midst of war, he has called America's allies, quote, a "coalition of the coerced and the bribed." That would be nations like Great Britain, Poland, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark, El Salvador, Australia, and others -- allies that deserve the respect of all Americans, not the scorn of a politician. I respect every soldier, from every country, who serves beside us in the hard work of history. America is grateful, and America will not forget."

What's your thoughts? Is this a strong coalition? And what is out plan to leave Iraq exactly? Is it ok to leave right after the elections?

Are any of my questions answered in his agenda:
http://www.georgewbush.com/agenda/
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Montagnard
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Username: Montagnard

Post Number: 1026
Registered: 6-2003


Posted on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 8:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In Britain they call Tony Blair "the poodle" because of his slavish following of George Bush, who is widely regarded as a dangerous idiot.



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Guy
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Username: Vandalay

Post Number: 61
Registered: 8-2004


Posted on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 8:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Gulf War that had overwhelming international support support produced around 378 casualties of which the U.S suffered 293. That is 78%.

In the libeartion of Iraq , total casulaties are 1132 so far with the U.S. having 1001 dead.
That is 88%.

In any conflict the US will alway experience the greater number of casualities whether the U.N. sanctions it or not.
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Duncan
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Username: Duncanrogers

Post Number: 2831
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 9:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lets see your percentages for Vietnam, WWII, Korea, WWI (civil war cant count since it was nearly 100% american dead).

"in any conflict" you said.

There is nothing good about the numbers.

And what Cheney said is disgusting. He should openly apologize to the entire population for trying to literally scare people into voting for his ticket. It is a disgrace to the office of VP that a man like that can speak garbage like that in an effort to get votes. That borders on screaming fire in a crowded theater.
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Guy
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Username: Vandalay

Post Number: 62
Registered: 8-2004


Posted on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Duncan , the numbers are heatbreaking, but telling. The numbers are also similar in Afghanistan. Things were different during WW2. We are now the worlds only super power and therefore will take the lead role in most miltary operations.

Also , don't mistake our support for the war with acceptance of casualties. Every time I hear that an American has died , I cringe and think immediatley of the family. I also feel anger, not at my President, but at the insurgents and terrorists.
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Face
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Username: Face

Post Number: 369
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Posted on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 9:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IRAQI WAR DEAD REACHES 1,000

Face facts. this and other headlines show that the MEDIA IS IN PANIC MODE....BUSH MIGHT WIN

The latest headlines all over the various media outlets is that the United States has now sustained 1,000 casualties in Iraq. One thousand! What a huge number, right? Well not really, but more on that in a minute. To hear the media tell it, you would think that 1,000 U.S. troops just died yesterday. Of course, the truth is much different, but reporting the truth doesn't help Kerry, now does it?

Operation Iraqi Freedom is now only 18 months old. In that time, we have liberated a country of 25 million people, overthrown a murderous regime and installed an interim government. We have done all of this with the loss of 1,000 troops. While every lost life is tragic, that number is lower than every single estimate that was made before the war. There were talking heads predicting a loss of 10,000 U.S. lives during the invasion alone. So we're supposed to believe that after a year and a half, only 1,000 is somehow a failure? I think not.

Then you have morons comparing Iraq to Vietnam...which shows their stupidity. 58,000 lives lost over the course of a decade is not the same thing as Iraq. Besides...we've won the war in Iraq by every measure of success.

But really, this has nothing to do with casualties, the war in Iraq, or Bush's handling of it. This is just the media following their template...running stories that hurt Bush in the hopes of electing The Poodle to the Oval Office.

Neil boortz

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Mustt_mustt
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Username: Mustt_mustt

Post Number: 42
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 9:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Guy, you feel anger at the insurgents but remember they are fighting an occupying power. Any self respecting Iraqi would do that. Look up the definition of insurgency, please! As for anger at the terrorists, there were none until Bush and neocons decided to invade Iraq for reasons that have been changing as the weather has been in Maplewood. Talk about self-fulfilling prophecy! It's time to get pissed off at your President!
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Montagnard
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Username: Montagnard

Post Number: 1027
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Posted on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This looks a lot like Vietnam. Rebels in control of key areas. U.S. "advisors" training a puppet army. When we see the CIA offering assistance to opium growers in nearby highland areas so they can buy more weapons, we'll know it's close to the end. The quote is from today's NY Times.

quote:

U.S. Conceding Rebels Control Regions of Iraq
By ERIC SCHMITT and STEVEN R. WEISMAN

Published: September 8, 2004


ASHINGTON, Sept. 7 - As American military deaths in Iraq operations surpassed the 1,000 mark, top Pentagon officials said Tuesday that insurgents controlled important parts of central Iraq and that it was unclear when American and Iraqi forces would be able to secure those areas.

As of late Tuesday night, the Pentagon's accounting showed that 998 service members and three Defense Department civilians had been killed in Iraq operations.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and Gen. Richard B. Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said at a news conference that the American strategy in retaking rebel-held strongholds hinged on training and equipping Iraqi forces to take the lead.

Mr. Rumsfeld said Iraqi officials understood they must regain control of the insurgent safe havens. "They get it, and will find a way over time to deal with it,'' he said.

But General Myers said the Iraqi forces would probably not be ready to confront insurgents in those areas until the end of this year.

Their comments, which came after a two-day spike in violence in Iraq led to a surge in American military deaths, represented an acknowledgment that the Americans had failed to end an increasingly sophisticated insurgency in important Sunni-dominated areas and in certain Shiite enclaves. Fighting raged on Tuesday in Sadr City, in Baghdad, as Shiite militiamen loyal to Moktada al-Sadr ended a self-declared cease-fire. [Page A14.]

The officials' assessment also underscored the difficulty of pacifying Iraq in time for elections scheduled for January. The cities of greatest rebel control are Ramadi, Falluja, Baquba and Samarra, in the so-called Sunni triangle, west and north of Baghdad, where Saddam Hussein remains popular and many forces loyal to him have gathered strength.

There is increasing concern in the administration over plans for the election, with some officials saying that if significant parts of the Sunni areas cannot be secured by January, it may be impossible to hold a nationwide balloting that would be seen as legitimate. Putting off the elections, though, would infuriate Iraq's Shiite majority. The elections are for an assembly that is to write a new constitution next year. Mr. Rumsfeld warned that the violence would intensify as elections approached.

Mr. Rumsfeld said that Prime Minister Ayad Allawi recognized that his government could not continue to allow rebel control in crucial areas of the country, but that it would take time for him to determine how to proceed.

"The prime minister and his team fully understand that it is important that there not be areas in that country that are controlled by terrorists," he said, adding that Dr. Allawi would deal with the problem by "negotiation and discussion" in some cases and by force in others.

Other administration officials, amplifying the secretary's comments, said the administration had decided to let Dr. Allawi try to persuade rebel leaders to join the process of reconstructing Iraq, or suffer the consequences if they did not.

"Allawi's strategy is to try to find people on the sidelines and wean the moderates away, to give them courage and a hope of reward for themselves," said an administration official. "He's telling them: 'I'm giving you an opportunity to meet your local concerns. You're going to be my guy, and together we'll try to isolate the extremists.' "

Administration officials say no decision has been made yet for American forces to attack those strongholds. The preference is for Iraqi forces to do the job, as they were said to have been poised to do last month in Najaf, the Shiite holy city.

But the record of the Iraqi security forces has not been inspiring, although some Iraqi forces fought well in Najaf, American officials said. While 95,000 soldiers have been trained and equipped up to American commanders' satisfaction, General Myers said, they will not be ready until the end of the year to join American forces in any assault against insurgent strongholds and then keep the peace afterward.








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Kramer
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Username: Kramer

Post Number: 78
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 10:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Face,

How do we know when the war is over? What is our exit strategy?
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Face
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Post Number: 370
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 10:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kramer, Did we have an exit strategy avaiable for any previous war? If so, please tell me which war and what the strategy was.
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Kramer
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Username: Kramer

Post Number: 79
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, what's our goal? Usually it's defeating the enemy, like Hitler and the Nazis. We have Hussein - now what do we have to do to finish the job here? When do we know when terrorism is over? I'm just trying to figure this it out, it's not like our enemy is wearing a particular uniform.
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steel
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Username: Steel

Post Number: 563
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 11:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Referring to the 2nd part of this thread for a moment, (the deficit):

The other night on the tube, that crazy left-wing liberal Joe Scarborough repeated what he has written in his new book "Rome Wasn't Burnt in a Day", that the young republicans who were elected along with him during the Clinton days had turned largely from [righteous] "barbarians at the gate" to "Imperial guards, guarding their own power and spending to get reelected".

He is aghast at the level of spending under the Bush administration that is now
(according to him and his research) at a record 10.5% increase per year. He says he is not referring to military spending but to domestic spending, and waste. "Where is the conservativism?' he asked.

In another twist of irony, Zell Miller in his (now somewhat famous) 2001 introduction speech at a democratic dinner, described John Kerry in the following manner: "In his 16 years in the Senate, John Kerry has fought against government waste and worked hard to bring some accountability to Washington. Early in his Senate career in 1986, John signed on to the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Deficit Reduction Bill, and he fought for balanced budgets before it was considered politically correct for Democrats to do so."

Meanwhile, only the Bush administration could first project a GARGANTUAN deficit, have it come in at a still monsterous record GARGANTUAN-minus-some deficit and have the gall to call it progress.

Washington has gone completely mad.
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cjc
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Username: Cjc

Post Number: 2343
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That deficit, due in no small part to his domestic spending, is what makes conservatives howl when liberals say Bush is some mad right winger.

Toss out the farm bill, the Medicare drug welfare bill for seniors that can damn well pay for it themselves, and more bloated education spending. Then talk to me about a right wing agenda.
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Face
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Username: Face

Post Number: 371
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kramer, we will know it is over when Iraq can take care of Iraq. Dude, we still maintain troops in Germany don't we? And what abou the Korea Penensula? Why? So that they can be available for use in Europe, or Asia. Iraq is in the Middle East, need I say more, or can you think about how beneficial it might be to maintain a level of troops in the Middle East, and not in say Saudi Arabia.

And how the hell do I know when terrorism will be over? I guess when either we're all dead, or when we all can live in peace. And I see neither happening next week. Do you?

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