| Author |
Message |
    
Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 1245
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 3:06 pm: |     |
If you volunteer, you are potentially putting yourself in harms way but lets be realistic, a lot of volunteers find the military a way out of poverty and the military does take advantage of this. If they reinstate the draft and start coming after your children, lets see how you feel then. When they came for the President and V.P., they avoided putting themselves in harms way and now have the audacity to criticize another person of privillege who served. |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1132
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 3:24 pm: | |
But he wasn't defending his country, was he? He was ordered to take part in the illegal invasion and occupation of another country: ordered by a President who had been defeated at the polls but appointed to office through legal trickery. The person gave those orders must bear responsibility for the consequences.
Here's the oath of enlistment, taken from www.army.mil.
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
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bobk
Citizen
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 6231
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 3:29 pm: | |
Just curious, but I gotta ask. Do any of you Chicken Hawks know people who are serving in Iraq? I realize among the better classes it isn't popular to admit that a friend's son or daughter may have gone to West Point, or taken ROTC in college and well, none would admit to knowing an enlisted person.
The combined population of MW and SO is around the same as two modern army divisions. If we were in combat there would be around 2,000 casualties a year among our population. That is, I think, fairly significant.
And Michael, obviously you aren't old enough to remember Vietnam complete with the Five O'Clock Follies and the Body Count Game. If we had killed as many VC and NVA as we claimed that country would still be depopulated. I rather suspect the same is going on in Iraq.
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Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 875
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 3:30 pm: | |
YES, SMALL GROUP OF RESISTANCE!
How many attacks on our soldiers happen every day?
1, 5, 10, 20? (its under 5 by the way)
With a country of 50,000,000 people that supposedly don't want us there. With 15 of 18 provinces completely safe?
Yes, there are a few cities that have a decent number of fighters, but they are getting clobbered.
5 guerilla attacks a day, ZERO military attacks a day.
I am comletely pleased with how the Iraq war has gone and is going. In 18 months we toppled Saddams regime, built an infrastructure for a democratic government, captured Saddam and killed his sons, helped Iraqis create a constitution (a first for an arab country)transferred power to a provisional government WITH the agreement of Ayatollah Sistani!, held local elections, registered voters, trained 100,000 iraqi security forces, opened hundreds of schools and hospitals, vaccinated 95% of iraqi children.
Not one major attack against our troops has even been attempted. Booby traps and car bombs. The insurgency is tiny and inneffective. Even with the bombings and threats, THOUSANDS of iraqis still line up to join the Iraqi national guard and fight alongside of our troops.
It isn't a picnic by any measure, but it is far from a failure. |
bobk
Citizen
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 6232
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 3:34 pm: | |
Uhm, Michael, these guys don't want to fight battalion sized engagements. They are quite happy with the car bombings, IEDs, etc. I don't think we ever lost a battle in Vietnam either. However, we didn't win that one either.
Your numbers only include attacks on US and coalition forces, not the attacks on the Iraqis tehemselves. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 129
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 3:39 pm: | |
Michael: I guess you're a glass-is-half-full kinda guy, but Runsfeld and others have conceded that many areas won't have elections because they are too dangerous.
And •••• like this on a daily basis doesn't inspire much optimism.
Baghdad Bombings Kill 35 Children
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=2&u=/ap/20040930/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ir aq
(Whatever...at least they're not Americans, right?)
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Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 876
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 3:49 pm: | |
Rumsfeld hasn't conceded any such thing. No one has. 15 of 18 provinces are ready today. 3 are a mess. Will they be secured in 3 months, no one knows yet. If not, so what? If the Sunnis or shia in those provinces want to leave the elected government to the choice of the other provinces, so be it.
No, my numbers don't include attacks on Iraqis, but if you want to include those numbers, then you can't claim that the US is shouldering the majority of injuries in the Iraqi liberation.
The bombings killing iraqis are terrible, but do you think that is making everyday iraqis more sympathetic or less sympathetic to the insurgencies?
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Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 130
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 3:57 pm: | |
From CNN:
Four Iraqis killed in Baghdad rocket attack
Rumsfeld again says some areas might be too violent for voting
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- At least four Iraqis were killed and 10 others wounded in an attack by insurgents in Baghdad, while U.S. warplanes pounded targets in Falluja.
The latest fighting came a day after U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld suggested that parts of Iraq might be excluded from elections set for January.
On Thursday, Rumsfeld said some areas of the country might be too dangerous for polling. Nevertheless, he expressed optimism that elections would push through as scheduled. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 131
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:00 pm: | |
In fact, I believe his exact words after he told a Senate committee that if the election could be held in part the country, but violence was too great for a vote in the rest of the country, “So be it. Nothing’s perfect in life.” |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1133
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:04 pm: | |
Last count, there were only 25.1 million people in Iraq, minus of course those killed in the invasion. |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 877
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:08 pm: | |
So saying that some parts MIGHT not be secure and still expressed optimism that the elections will be on schedule is him conceding "that many areas won't have elections because they are too dangerous."
Ridiculous. |
bobk
Citizen
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 6233
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:08 pm: | |
I read an article a few days ago about violence in Iraq. I swear the number of incidents per day averaged around 60 to 70. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 132
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:11 pm: | |
Michael, you definitely live in Bushworld. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 2513
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:14 pm: | |
bobk -- I have two relatives in the military. One is over there now, and another is back awaiting his next deployment to Iraq. And how about you Surrender Monkeys? Know anyone over there? |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 878
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:22 pm: | |
OK maybe my numbers are off... I thought there were 50 million Iraqis. If its 25 million, I apologize and stand corrected.
I've seen articles claiming up to 70 attacks a day, but those attacks include bandits, robberies, muggings, looting of equipment, and sabotage of un-manned facilities.
Actual attacks on troops or coalition sympathizers are around 5 a day, usually less, but sometimes more.
Even if you want to count every single type of attack on anyone its still incredibly small. |
Maple Man
Citizen
Username: Mapleman
Post Number: 350
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:26 pm: | |
Michael,
The source of the "only 3 of 18" provinces can't hold elections info is Allawi. And even if Allawi is right, Baghdad is one of the areas not secure enough to hold elections. How can they hold a legitimate election if the captial city, home to 5 million people, is not part of it?
Here's an AP report from this week:
quote:However, at least six provinces - Baghdad, Anbar, Diyala, Salahuddin, Kirkuk and Nineveh - have been the scene of significant attacks on U.S. troops and Iraqi authorities in the past month. The only areas not plagued by bloodshed are the three northern provinces controlled by Kurds. The situation in many areas, however, is unknown since journalists' travel is restricted by security fears.
Denis D. Gray (AP)
All of us should know better than to use politician as our news sources. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 133
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:27 pm: | |
Nothing changes the fact that these Iraqi insurgents HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9-11. Bush let the real bad guys get away. Now we're fighting against people who are only fighting us because we picked a fight with them. Meanwhile, Bin Ladin is laughing at us and plotting... |
Parkbench87
Citizen
Username: Parkbench87
Post Number: 1338
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:31 pm: | |
While your worrying about Surrender Monkeys you should also spend some time focusing on the Chickenhawk Monkees (Bush and Cheney) |
Sylad
Citizen
Username: Sylad
Post Number: 822
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:41 pm: | |
WHAT: NJ Bush Cheney Rally with Rudy Giuliani - Saturday
WHEN: Saturday, October 2, 2004- Doors Open 2:30pm, Close 3:15pm
WHERE: Ramsey High School-Main Gymnasium
East Main Street
Ramsey NJ
CONTACT: Bergen County Republican Headquarters
EMAIL: For tickets, go to BCR Headquarters, 339 Main St., Hackensack, Thursday and Friday, between 9am and 9pm, or Saturday between 8am and noon
PHONE: 201-487-5551
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MHD
Real Name
Username: Mayhewdrive
Post Number: 1630
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 4:56 pm: | |
Sylad,
Where do we pick up the loyalty oath to sign & the Kool-aid to drink? |
singlemalt
Citizen
Username: Singlemalt
Post Number: 633
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 5:12 pm: | |
The Republicans are lucky to have a regional figure like Giuliani that can attract large crowds (and donations). If the polls continue to move in Bush's direction in NJ, it won't be long until he is here too.
I still think it's a longshot for Bush to win NJ, but you never know. Giuliani is a great attration in these parts and will really help the President. |
bobk
Citizen
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 6234
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 5:57 pm: | |
Surprised you would admit to it. 
I am from a small family so I don't have any relatives, but a lot of friend's sons over there.
A Lietenatnt in the First ID who got IEDed in the spring, but survived. A Captain going back to Iraq for the third time. Two MP officers who are reservists on what works out to be permanent active duty for the duration. A mechanic in the NY Guard who spent a year partoling as infrantry in an unarmored Humvee.
I have talked to a couple of these guys and they feel they make a difference and that there is hope. However, all are working on their exit strategies from the military, mostly for family reasons.
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yabbadabbadoo
Citizen
Username: Yabbadabbadoo
Post Number: 89
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 6:36 pm: | |
Five attacks a day?!
I don't think so.
"Across Iraq, August saw the highest number of attacks on U.S.-led forces since major combat ended in May 2003. The U.S. military counted 2,700 attacks last month, averaging 87 per day. (August)
By contrast, July saw 1,600 or 52 per day. In April, the deadliest month of the war, there were 1,800 attacks on American and allied troops, or 60 per day.
Separately, the U.S. military acknowledged that previous estimates placing the number of Iraqi guerrillas at 5,000 were too low. A military spokesman said Sunday that Iraq is beset by up to 12,000 full-time insurgents, a number that swells when part-timers are active.
A military source told The Associated Press in July that as many as 20,000 total participate in attacks." |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 3889
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 8:44 pm: | |
Yeah, CJC, I do know people over there. Why does that matter to you, and why do you feel the need to be insulting? |
Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 880
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 11:35 am: | |
Yabba,
so there are 20,000 insurgents out of 25,000,000 population. Slightly less than 1%. Hardly a significant number of the population.
And like I said if you do count EVERYTHING including property damage (like burning a car or building), Looting and Robbery, sabotage, etc. There could be 80 or so a day.
They are counting EVERYTHING! Rocks through windows, setting small fires, drive by shootings, etc.
You know what, even if they are 80 or 100 REAL attacks a day (bombs, ambushes), and our casualty rate is about 2 a day- its still a phenominal success rate.
Plus it also means that our 120,000 troops only need to wipe out 20,000 insurgents. Now that IS encouraging.
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Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 3964
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 2, 2004 - 10:45 pm: | |
1% isn't significant? Suppose 1% of the people of South Orange and Maplewood were liquor store thiefs or burglars? That would be intolerable. Now imagine that 1% are murderers. How long would you stay here?
I've decided that I really like bobk's question. After we can't find any more volunteers, what happens?
It leads me to realize that we're very likely to have a draft soon. And this time, they're taking our daughters, too.
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bobk
Citizen
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 6247
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 3, 2004 - 5:08 pm: | |
Up until last week I believe our military claimed there were less than 5.000 "terrorists". Why should the 20,000 number be taken at face value? Since the insurgents and terrorists operate openly I think they may have a lot of support among the general population. This was the case in Vietnam. The same guy who would sell you a coke or his sister during the day went home when night fell and pulled the AK47 out from under the woodpile or at least never mentioned that his neighbor did.
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Michael Janay
Citizen
Username: Childprotect
Post Number: 899
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 3, 2004 - 10:59 pm: | |
What about 1% of Newark or Irvington or Baltimore, or the West Bank.
I'm not claiming that Iraq is the new tourist Hotspot... just that its a tiny fraction of the population that are insurgents, and most want elections and a decent shot at making their country great.
Now if there were massive uprisings and demonstrations involving hundreds of thousands of people all over Iraq (they have the freedom to do it now you know), a case could be made. But 20,000, its nothing.
Its as if 1% of maplewood wanted Islamic rule and bombed places all over town. Just because they are vocal and deadly doesn't mean they represent all of us, and it certainly doesn't mean we would give in to their demands. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 3969
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 3, 2004 - 11:02 pm: | |
I'm beginning to think that prosperity is more important than democracy. Once a people is prosperous, they'll demand the form of government that suits them best. I suspect that prosperity, not democracy, is likely to get people off our backs and less likely to bomb us capriciously. |
bobk
Citizen
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 6253
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 5:03 am: | |
If 1 percent of Maplewood was involved in violent regime change tactics a goodly number of the other 99 percent would cooperate with the authorities. I don't think this is happening in Iraqi if it were Zagawi would be dead or captured.
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