| Author |
Message |
    
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 3904
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 10:11 pm: |     |
How much should they raise your taxes to pay for the war in Iraq? How much should they mine?
If it's not worth paying for, how can we justify it?
If you think that instead, our children and grandchildren should pay for it, why?
If you think that none of us has to pay for it, where do you think the money comes from?
Whose children should be fighting it and risking their lives? Yours? Mine? Everyone's?
If the volunteer army doesn't prove adequate for this war, what criteria should we use to draft people? What excuses should people be allowed to use to avoid the draft legally? |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2576
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 11:11 pm: | |
So much depends on the outcome in Iraq. If we are to assume the best case where Iraq develops into a modern state along the lines of, say, Turkey and this is the catalyst for reform throughout the region, then even a very high price tag in terms of lives and dollars will seem worth it. What is high? I don't know. Let's say twenty thousand of our soldiers dead over the next few years. Of course, this means that we will need to reinstate the draft.
If we reinstate the draft, it must be done fairly. There cannot be deferments for college and that sort of thing.
We should pay for this war today by raising taxes. It is true that WW II was paid for with bonds. It is also true that tremendous economic growth following the war helped in wiping out the war debts. That was a bit lucky. We shouldn't assume that we can run up a huge war debt today on the assumption that future growth will wipe out the debt. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 3908
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 11:18 pm: | |
Yeah, I forgot to point out that this is the first war when we didn't raise taxes to pay for it. Our esteemed president said that war time calls for tax cuts and everyone knows it, despite that history contradicts him. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 2474
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 6:43 pm: | |
The level of taxation should be one that maximizes the return to the Treasury over a broad stretch of time. It's an entirely separate question from spending.
And people, don't kid yourselves that when Iraq is over, it's all over. Say it takes as long as settling Germany and Japan. After that is done, there will be other theaters. Africa was in the news lately with Al Qada cells in Nigeria pulling some guerilla warfare on the police there. I don't know how Iran or Syria will work out. Prepare for this war on terror to last past Bush's second term, and the next two terms of whoever follows him. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2579
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 6:58 pm: | |
It is misleading to compare Iraq to either Germany or Japan. Aside from the fact that Germany and Japan were excessively cohesive nations, it wasn't too long after the end of WW II that we became the protector of those nations against the Soviet menace. And the Germans knew better than anybody the nature of the Soviet threat. Absent the Soviet threat, our occupation and rehabilitation of Germany and Japan would have been more difficult undertakings. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 2477
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 7:08 pm: | |
I was speaking in terms of length of time. But while we're at it, did Japan have any experience with democracy before we occupied them? And how long did it take to get elections and some provistional government up and running in those countries? |
themp
Citizen
Username: Themp
Post Number: 970
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 7:31 pm: | |
At al Kimdi Hospital, Dr. Mumtaz Jaber, a vascular surgeon, said that three months ago, his 3-year-old nephew, his sister and his brother-in-law were driving in Baghdad at about 9 p.m. when they saw an American checkpoint. His nephew was killed.
"They didn't stop fast enough. The Americans shot them immediately," Jaber said. "This is how so many die."
At the Baghdad morgue, Dr. Quasis Hassan Salem said he saw a family of eight brought in: three women, three men and two children. They were sleeping on their roof last month because it was hot inside. A military helicopter shot at them and killed them: "I don't know why."
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/9753603.htm |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2580
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 7:47 pm: | |
Japan had political parties and a parliament before WW II, but it democracy was not deeply rooted. The Japanese militarists took over the government in the 30's.
Japan held elections in 1946 and established their constitution in 1947.
German elections I think may have been held in 1946, but they weren't with the intent to restore sovereignty.
In fact, until the nature of the Soviet threat became clear, U.S. policy towards Germany was quite punitive. The shift in focus to reconstruction was in response to the establishment of Soviet satellite nations in Eastern Europe.
For an endless list of reasons, I think that drawing parallels between post-WW II Japan/Germany and post-war Iraq is dangerously misleading.
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themp
Citizen
Username: Themp
Post Number: 971
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 8:00 pm: | |
How many US Soldiers were killed in Occupied Germany by guerilla/sabotage activity? I think I heard somewhere that the answer is none or close to. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 2478
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 8:34 pm: | |
Could the Emporer be overruled by Parliment?
The root of the falacy with any direct comparisons with Germany and Japan is that in Iraq the US didn't make a concerted effort to kill significant portions of the civilian populations, particularly as they did in Japan to force total, subservient surrender. Again, nor do I seek to make and comparison to suggest the two situations are at all equal.
My first comparison was along the lines of time. My second question about instituting representative governemtn was a way of addressing those who say "well, they've never had any experience with democracy, therefore it's a losing proposition at the outset."
Nor is it fair to compare the desires of removing US forces in occupied territories. Cuz we're still in Germany. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 3911
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:28 am: | |
cjc, so you're referring to the Laffer Curve? I don't believe it has been proven adequately. In any case, I gather you're saying we can pay for the war by lowering taxes, because doing so will increase revenues.
Can you cite a well reputed economist who agrees that this can work? I've read articles by a few who are sure it can't.
If the Laffer Curve turns out to be wrong, can you post some sort of round number describing what you'd be willing to spend? You don't even have to estimate what you're willing to pay for the so-called war on terror. Just give me an estimate for the war in Iraq. Can you do that for us, please? |
bobk
Citizen
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 6191
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 3:41 am: | |
I guess our President believed the clap trap that the Iraqis would pay for the war through oil revenue. Didn't happen. However, we are very lucky to have such a forceful, stay the course leader who will not change his views no matter what the facts are.
Hell, Reagan cut the tax cuts when they had a greater effect on revenue than estimated. But not GWB. What a man, what a leader.
"Into the Valley of Death rode the 400".
CJC is correct in that the Japanese had only a thin layer of democracy before WWII. However, they did have the organization and my nature they tended have a strong tendency towards authoritarianism. In effect MacArthur became the new emperor.
I believe less than 200 soliders died during the occupation of Germany. However, remember that we killed or captured virtually all adult males of miliary age and many teenagers who fought in the Hitler Youth towards the end of the war.
The Iraqis weren't so accomodating. They didn't fight. Am I the only one who remembers the tapes of piles of Iraqi uniforms, minus the AK47s, taken by the imbedded reporters?
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Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 3923
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 12:46 am: | |
That's pretty deafening silence I hear, from my questions.
If we imposed a war tax and it hit you hard, I bet Americans would feel differently about the importance of this war.
I am underwhelmed. |
bets
Citizen
Username: Bets
Post Number: 821
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 1:15 am: | |
quote:I guess our President believed the clap trap that the Iraqis would pay for the war through oil revenue. Didn't happen. However, we are very lucky to have such a forceful, stay the course leader who will not change his views no matter what the facts are.
Bobk, forgive me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that the President went to war on an assumption? I mean, I know that's what ultimately happened, but your posit is that the President is kept as ignorant as we are and you APPROVE of that! Truly frightening.
Acceptance and blind belief. Perfect together! |
bobk
Citizen
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 6204
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 3:25 am: | |
Uhm, Bets, I do tend to be a little on the sarcastic side.  |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 3165
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 3:59 am: | |
Good night Bob... |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 378
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 7:50 am: | |
If we imposed a war tax and it hit you hard, I bet Americans would feel differently about the importance of this war.
If we don't start fighting smarter and more efficiently, our children will be subject to a "war tax." It's called the draft. |
notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 1524
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 11:13 am: | |
The monetary cost of this war will exceed $200B.
Has anyone bothered to ask what it might cost to simply BUY Iraq?
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Maplewoody
Real Name
Username: Maplewoody
Post Number: 784
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 11:11 pm: | |
Aren't W + Dick getting BLOODY rich? |
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