| Author |
Message |
    
Albatross
Citizen
Username: Albatross
Post Number: 23
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 10:40 pm: |     |
Today the resident assistant in my dormotory received an e-mail from the Dean of Students. I don't have the text of the message, but its subject was the possibility of a military draft starting July 15, 2005.
There are currently mirror bills authorizing a resumption of selective service in the House of Representatives and the Senate. They are Senate Resolution 89 and House Resolution 163. They can be read at http://thomas.loc.gov/ Enter the bill numbers to read the bills.
These bills were introduced in January 2003. They are still in committee, but still potent. My own research turned up a series of mail messages, beginning with the one at this address: https://mail.prairienet.org/pipermail/higher-fire/2004-June/000080.html
This first message is an alleged copy of an e-mail sent around via friends to this recipient. There are messages following it not unlike an MOL thread. The alleged author works at the Department of Defense. There are other links within the e-mail that are helpful to read.
The numbers quoted by the e-mail are real. Another site, www.bushdraft.com, has a very over-the-top homepages, but also contains sections entitled "The Proof", "Articles" and "Links." These pages contain links to independent sites which together detail a disturbing trend.
A search of Google reveals a whole other set of sites.
The bills in question allow a draft of all males and females between the ages of 18 and 26 who are not currently attending high school. There are no college deferments. Conciencious objection is limited to religious concerns only. Please read the bills all the way through.
Please take the time to investigate these links and sources. Especially pay attention the e-mail, which even if falsified raises many disturbing and compelling points. I would ask all responders in this thread not to be flippant, as this matter is very important to me and those of use who would be affected by this action.
Thank you,
Albatross |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 12356
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 10:44 pm: | |
It's complete BS. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 1327
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 10:45 pm: | |
Albatross, Are you calling Bush a liar? He just said that if he's elected, it will be an all volunteer army. Didn't you listen. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 202
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 10:49 pm: | |
http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp |
Albatross
Citizen
Username: Albatross
Post Number: 24
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 11:00 pm: | |
First of all, I did not post this in response to the debate. I did listen to the debate and heard Bush promise an all-volunteer army. I did not call Bush a liar; I raised a concern that I had. It is coincidence that I posted this thread at the same time as the debate; had I learned of this earlier or later, I certainly would have raised it then.
This is not BS to me, nor to my collegues. Had I believed this to be a minor issue, I would not have raised it.
Again, please read the bills and explore the links, and maybe even do some of your own digging. If you disagree with me, that's fine, but please tell me why.
Albatross |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 12358
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 11:08 pm: | |
I did digging on this three months ago. It's pure BS |
Albatross
Citizen
Username: Albatross
Post Number: 25
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 11:14 pm: | |
Please tell me why. |
Albatross
Citizen
Username: Albatross
Post Number: 26
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 11:14 pm: | |
I'd be relieved if it were. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 3894
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 11:16 pm: | |
It may or may not be BS.
I'm now in Day 5 as the parent of an 18 year old son.
So, excuse me for being extremely cautious on this subject. |
dacar
Citizen
Username: Dacar
Post Number: 131
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 11:20 pm: | |
the bill is a political sham being sponsored by 2 democrats - Rangel and Hollings
The bill have no support and will not pass |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 12363
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 11:34 pm: | |
It was even exposed on the NBC Nightly news last night as a bogus email with false claims beign sent out to needlessly scare people. |
Albatross
Citizen
Username: Albatross
Post Number: 28
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 12:01 am: | |
I watched the NBC news clip that you described. The e-mail that I saw was very similar to the one featured on the clip.
I was aware that Rangel proposed a draft for the war in Iraq, but I was not aware that it had become a bill. Thank you again to sbenois for the clip.
I will say that my fears have been somewhat allayed. I will not say that I will not continue following the subject avidly. Whether bogus or not, the message I linked to raises some logical points. Especially concerning to me is the fact that the Dean of Students sent out an e-mail. Our Dean is not a politically radical person and would not have sent a message had it not concerned him.
I am also concerned that as the situation changes, a bill like this one may become more appealing. Six months could change the whole overseas dynamic, possibly bringing us out of Iraq or possibly committing us to another combat action altogether. Rumor or not, it is a metter of concern, and I am glad that my awareness has been raised. I will be paying much closer attention to this issue.
Thanks again,
Albatross |
Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 401
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 12:11 am: | |
Whether it's bogus or not it raises the issue and the candidates may end up having to address it before the election. Can't say who such a discussion would benefit. |
Ed May
Citizen
Username: Edmay
Post Number: 2210
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 12:13 am: | |
I agree with Sbenois. Do not be duped by false emails or false documents. |
Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 402
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 12:21 am: | |
I'm not duped by false emails. I realize it's false, but when listening to either of the candidates discuss the massive effort needed to wage the war on terror the notion that a draft is imminent is a very plausible conclusion. |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 12365
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 12:27 am: | |
Or false idols |
TomR
Citizen
Username: Tomr
Post Number: 327
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 1:18 am: | |
Albatross,
Please explain why this matter is very important to you, and those others who would be affected by such action.
And who are those "others"? I had assumed that a resumption of a draft would affect us all.
Be well, stay safe.
TomR. |
NAILS
Citizen
Username: Nails
Post Number: 395
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 5:16 am: | |
the draft is not coming back. |
wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 1404
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 5:34 am: | |
quote:Do not be duped by false emails or false documents.
If only our president were as smart as Ed May! |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 203
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 11:32 am: | |
I do wonder how we're going to be able to keep our forces fresh in the protracted war were in (Terrorism, not Iraq). having to rotate troops into and out of combat status is going to eventually exhaust them. We can't seem to sustain the current forces in Iraq without calling up large numbers of reserves and extending people's time in country.
What happens when we need more troops in Afghanistan, or when we go into the Sudan, or another growing militant fundamentalist region? Who is going to fight those wars? Our current troops are tired, and given some of the things that have been alleged about coercing people into reupping,I doubt many will be happy about giving the country more years of service than they are required. |
Foj
Citizen
Username: Foger
Post Number: 19
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 11:50 am: | |
Charles Rangel is not the rules commitee.
The rules commitee is controlled by Republicans.
And since the House and the Senate have given the proposed legislation--- numbers--this demonstrates that the draft can be voted on at any time. Irregardless of who wrote it.
And quit frankly this is old news--this legislation was entered into the "Que" months ago. |
Albatross
Citizen
Username: Albatross
Post Number: 29
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 1:00 pm: | |
This matter is very important to me because I am a healthy, eligible 18 year-old. Quite simply, I don't want to be drafted.
By my collegues I mean people similar to myself; 18- and 19 year-olds who would have reason to worry should there be a draft.
While a draft would certainly affect us all, how many of you on this board are over 26?
I acknowledge that many of these draft allegations are probably unnecessarily alarmist and that most of them have little credibility. But as I said before, there is enough uncertainty and enough of a possibility to cause me concern. There are enough compelling points, enough that I brought this issue up here. And again, who knows what the next six months will bring? This is still a very real issue, one that should be followed. |
Foj
Citizen
Username: Foger
Post Number: 22
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 1:19 pm: | |
Yes AL its a real issue--1000%.
Lemme put it this way:
Bush says there will be an all VOL army. SO go ahead and vote for him. With the House and the Senate sitting on pre written bills--ready to go. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 152
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 1:26 pm: | |
Bush will send you or your kid to war.
Kerry will not...and he'll bring home the ones already there. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 2516
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 1:30 pm: | |
There will be no draft unless Democrats have their way about one as they're the ones proposing the legislation.
Kerry will bring those kids in Iraq home, and the people they're fighting along with them. |
Foj
Citizen
Username: Foger
Post Number: 23
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 1:34 pm: | |
ALbatross----Go to the think tank site
newamericancentury.org
And read the war plans written in the late 90;s, by Cheney and Rummy
And then do a "find" on the PDF file
"Rebuilding Americas Defenses"
Search for Pearl Harbor. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 153
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 1:42 pm: | |
Bush & Co. want war; Kerry wants peace. |
Cato Nova
Citizen
Username: Cato_nova
Post Number: 410
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 2:18 pm: | |
There will never be a draft. Never.
First of all, recall that the Bush twins are draft age.
Second, current leadership is never going to sponsor a draft that would subject their children to the draft.
Third, the military does not want a draft. It wants people who want to be there, who are gung-ho, or not privileged enough to be used to getting their way. The military does not want unwilling draftees.
Fourth, the regime does not want something that would affect the privileged classes. It makes imperialism more difficult.
The current bills are political grandstanding designed to draw attention to the fact that the current military draws disenfranchised poor blacks and latinos. These bills will never make it out of committee. These e-mails have been making the rounds for years.
Only a moron believes a mass e-mail.
|
bobk
Citizen
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 6243
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 2:24 pm: | |
Cato Nova, a draft could easily be structured to allow a buy out by those who can afford it. That is how the original draft during the Civil War was set up. Of course, there were the draft riots, but policing methods have improved since then.
If we continue down the current path we are going to run out of volunteers. Even committed men and women don't relish the idea of commuting to work in the Middle East for their entire careers. |
Cato Nova
Citizen
Username: Cato_nova
Post Number: 411
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 2:45 pm: | |
BobK:
Nonsense. A willing populace can easily be convinced to sacrifice their lives in a far-off land if they can be convinced (1) the cause is just; or (2) they see it as a decent option.
Moreover, voluntary military enrollment can be increased through, among other means, (1) lower standards (see today's NYT); (2) offering citizenship to aliens who volunteer; or (3) increasing salary and benefits.
A draft is just to politically difficult. It would damage the GOP severely, esp. with a buy-out provision, and thus is unlikely. If Vietnam had not been coupled with a draft, it would never have been protested so vociferously. Campaign contributions would be rolling into the Dems should a draft be re-instituted under Bush. |
themp
Citizen
Username: Themp
Post Number: 996
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 2:52 pm: | |
Yeah, I don't see a draft. They'd give away the bank first, since obviously budgets don't matter at all anymore. Especially if they bill comes due later in the form of college tuition or something. They will just up the benefits until they find what the market will accept.
|
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1137
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 3:09 pm: | |
The All-Mexican Force may soon be upon us. Who knows? |
Albatross
Citizen
Username: Albatross
Post Number: 31
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 3:37 pm: | |
Cato Nova: look at the references that I linked in my post. Only one of them might be a mass e-mail.
Foj: I'm not sure what you mean by your last two posts. I read the "Rebuiding" document at the sections you specified, but I could not find the war plan; the site search wasn't working. Do you by any chance have an URL? |
Albatross
Citizen
Username: Albatross
Post Number: 32
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 3:38 pm: | |
By the way, if anyone has any other sources, I am interested in them, whichever way they lean. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 160
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 3:45 pm: | |
Albatross: I'm very concerned for my nephew who just turned 17. I don't trust Bush. I'm not convinced he has our youth's best interest at heart. (Do you think for a second he's concerned about his daughters, as if there's any chance they'd go?) He cares not about budgets, nor opinions of him, and will care less should he win again. He has no interest in pulling out of one of the world's largest oil reserves. If you're concerned, the best thing you can do is vote, and convince all your friends to vote. |
TomR
Citizen
Username: Tomr
Post Number: 328
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 4:44 pm: | |
Albatross,
Your interest (and that of your colleagues, if they have the same concern as yourself) in self preservation is certainly understandable.
Thanks for clarifying your initial post.
For all of our sakes, including your own narrow interests, I truly hope that there will never be a need to reinstitute a draft.
BTW, did you attend a public school system at some point? Are you receiving financial aid for your college education?
Be well, stay safe.
TomR. |
Albatross
Citizen
Username: Albatross
Post Number: 34
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 5:19 pm: | |
TomR,
Self preservation is my first and most compelling interest, but by no means is it my only one. I am against a draft for a number of other reasons, the most serious being that a draft is compulsory by nature. The military is a matter of life or death, and save for perhaps a Third World War, I do not believe that anyone has the right to gamble someone else's life against their will.
I believe that a willing soldier makes for a better military than an unwilling one, as many people here and elsewhere have pointed out. Willing soldiers are easier to train, command and retain. A stronger, more effective military results.
I attended public school for twelve years, and my academic record there compelled my college to pay for 90% of my expenses, housing and tuition and such. May I ask why you inquire?
Albatross |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2584
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 2, 2004 - 1:13 pm: | |
When our nation needs soldiers to fight a war, then a draft is appropriate and people should do their duty. It is the most solemn duty of a true democracy.
At issue is when does the nation need to fight a war. In WW II, the need was clear and has withstood the test of history. Korea was more complex, but S. Korea is certainly a success story. Since then, the need for our wars has been less clear, to put it politely. |
TomR
Citizen
Username: Tomr
Post Number: 329
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 3, 2004 - 5:12 pm: | |
Albatross,
Its was good to read that self preservation is not your only interest regarding conscription, although it is distressing that it is your first and most compelling interest.
Food for thought:
Is it better to conscript hundreds of thousands of young people to fight a third world war; or better to conscript some tens of thousands to fight the less than global conflicts, and hopefully avoid the global conflict?
Your belief that a willing soldier makes a better soldier may be valid at this point in time (I've read of several Pentagon officials who have expressed the same belief); although it is contrary to the beliefs of the line commanders and non-coms I served amongst. (But that was some time ago).
It is encouraging that you recognized that many of the draft allegations you referenced are probably unnecessarily alarmist and that most of them have little credibility.
Keep reading. Talk with your friends, your professors, your folks and your folks' friends. Many of them will offer pointless retoric, but there is that kernel of knowledge to be gained from almost any interchange of ideas, which is invaluable.
Next time an issue comes to your attention, don't wait until the issue may affect you personally. Learn about the issue, and do that which you think is appropriate regarding that issue.
I don't know if you're registered to vote, but if not, I think you still can. DO IT, and vote for the candidates you think will best serve us.
Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but it is refreshing to read the thoughts of someone who appears to be willing to give thought to an issue, as opposed to many others on this board who too frequently seem like they post, only to raise their posting numbers.
Congratulations on your academic success in our school system, and the result of your not having a mortgage sized student loan to pay when you graduate. Keep up the good work.
Be well, stay safe.
TomR. |
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