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Brett
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Username: Bmalibashksa

Post Number: 1246
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some big deals were made in the press about the Document of understanding. I wondered if people were watching for how much those things related to the debate.

The Candidates had to appear the same height. I thought this made Bush’s podium look bigger.

Bush talked longer then the time allots (Little lights) more often but Kerry’s total time may have been longer.

Kerry took a lot of notes, bush didn’t

Bush stole a couple seconds from Kerry when they joked about their daughters.

Neither of the Candidates stopped much before their allotted time. There was one point where Kerry made a Super point in about 5 seconds. I thought he should have stopped.

It looked to me like the 30 second rebuttal was handed to Kerry, but Bush had to ask for it. (I noticed twice)

I tried to stick to the debate document and not bash one guy or the other.

What else did you see?

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Mark Fuhrman
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Username: Mfpark

Post Number: 669
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The podium height made Bush look much smaller than Kerry. Bush did ask twice for the 30 second rebuttal, but I wondered a few times why Kerry did not ask for it more. It seems like he let some chances to get the last word in.

The next debate--town hall style--should play to Bush more. He is much more comfortable moving around like a talk show host.
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Guy
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Username: Vandalay

Post Number: 200
Registered: 8-2004


Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 10:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Slit screen showed Bush's podium higher than Kerry's to compensate for height difference.
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Brett
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Username: Bmalibashksa

Post Number: 1247
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Right but I saw it as Bush's podium was bigger, Mark saw it as Bush looked smaller.
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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 140
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Body language was very interesting. Bush was hunched, while Kerry stood straight.

Bush asked for more time, then had nothing to say. He was a bumbling idiot at times.
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Brett
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Username: Bmalibashksa

Post Number: 1249
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 10:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was hoping not to get the "bumbling idiot " comment, that's why I said "Non Partisan"

Bush did look hunched.
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Brett
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Username: Bmalibashksa

Post Number: 1250
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bush also only said Senator Kerry twice. Every other time he said “My Challenger”

Kerry often said “This President”. Not "The President"
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MHD
Real Name
Username: Mayhewdrive

Post Number: 1633
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Question - were all channels showing the exact same "view"? (i.e. did all channels show the split screen)

I flipped channels & thought some channels were just showing one person at a time.

On ABC, it was the split screen & I thought Bush looked angry when Kerry "attacked", while Kerry smiled when Bush "attacked". (obviously better than Gore's sighing)
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Brett
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Username: Bmalibashksa

Post Number: 1251
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I watched on Fox and I think we were all watching the same thing.

I agree with the Attacked part.
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Duncan
Real Name
Username: Duncanrogers

Post Number: 3046
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Town Hall debate is scary. It is decreed that the audience must submit their questions in writing, and then if they deviate in any from what was written they will be cut off. So throw spontaneous debate out the window in an event that is supposed to be ...spontaneous.

As for last night. I noticed lack of real enforcement of time limits.
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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 141
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kerry handled the clock better. Bush seemed to run out of things to say before time was up.
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Brett
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Username: Bmalibashksa

Post Number: 1252
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That was my earlier question. Why do they use up every second?

Kerry nailed one quick (Wish I remember it) I tought it would have been great if he just stopped then
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notehead
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Username: Notehead

Post Number: 1542
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Kerry must have been very specifically warned not to give the "Al Gore sigh" -- he did tend to keep a pretty neutral or interested expression most of the time. Bush's face was more emotional, like he was eager to retort right away, but knew he would have to wait his turn.

On channel 13 they did not have any split screens, although there were a number of shots from the side that showed both candidates. Since Fox supplied all the video feed, I was concerned that there would somehow be some effort to frame Bush in a more positive manner, but I couldn't discern anything like that.

I agree that Kerry handled the clock better. He always gave an immediate, direct, short answer to the question, before elaborating, and then he always had a clean cut-off at the end of his time. Although both guys repeated themselves, Bush did that more frequently, and I think Kerry was able to work his repeated statements into his answer more effectively, while Bush would say "like I said before," which suggests that he couldn't find any additional points to make.
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ffof
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Username: Ffof

Post Number: 2885
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

or he would resort to this whine..."it's hard work runnin' the country" or "we're workin hard"...like he was complaining about his job or his homework.
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Amie Brockway-Metcalf
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Username: Amie

Post Number: 71
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of the bloggers is offering upwards of $5000 to ask Bush at the town-meeting how many times he's been arrested.
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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 143
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Give both of them credit for avoiding low-blow, silly one-liners. It was a solid debate without cheap shots.
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ffof
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Username: Ffof

Post Number: 2886
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I disagree - Bush's silly one-liner is the one about "wrong war, wrong place, right...wrong time".
And he also tried to create a new soundbite..the one about "mikshed messages", but it was to much of a tongue twister.
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Foj
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Username: Foger

Post Number: 20
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I dont recall Kerry ever asking for the 30 second rebuttal.

Bush stated that China would walk away --If the US called for bi-lateral talks, Patently untrue. China has requested Bi-lateral talks---the US has refused.

Bush confusing Osama and Saddam---also Iraq and Afganistan--is distrubing.

Bush talking in circle's -- Wrong war, wrong time etc. Was again disturbing. As Was asking for the 30 seconds and then not knowing what to say---
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Joe
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Username: Gonets

Post Number: 403
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Robert,
I agree. They were both dignified and this debate, for me, was better than expected. I enjoyed it very much. Call it lowered expectations, but there were times that I was impressed with the president. Not enough to vote for him.
In the early going Bush seemed to treat this like another speech on the campaign trail. He was actually yelling. He did settle down, but I think he's gotten accustomed to staged political events where the goal is to throw out sound-biteable bits of rhetoric which go unchallenged. Kerry's open questioning of his decisions, clearly raised the president's hackles and, from my perspective, Bush conveyed a sense of "who the hell does this guy think he is?" I wonder how that demeanor affects the opinion of undecideds.
I'm not going to get all excited about this debate. I think Kerry clearly won it, but it remains to be seen whether a good performance ina debate will do much to improve Kerry's chances. Plus, I'm sure Rove's minions burned the midnight oil extracting statements from Kerry that can be used against him.
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Brett
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Username: Bmalibashksa

Post Number: 1253
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was very glad Bush didn't say Flip Flop
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Joe
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Username: Gonets

Post Number: 404
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Come on Brett. I'm sure you used that bit of rhetoric against Kerry at some time. Are you flip flopping?
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Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa

Post Number: 1254
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 12:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, I use the term all the time :-)

I was just glad Bush didn't
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Albatross
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Username: Albatross

Post Number: 30
Registered: 9-2004


Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bush was very careful not to use 'flip-flop,' but he did call attention to how his challenger changed his position and was not a steadfast person.

One striking thing I noticed:
While Bush spoke, Kerry was either looking at Bush or taking notes.
While Kerry spoke, Bush looked all over the place, including away from Kerry.
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Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa

Post Number: 1255
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 1:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Albatross: I thought diffrently, I remember Bush looking at Kerry listening to everything, while Kerry looked at his notes most of the time.

Weird

I thought while talking Kerry looked at the moderator while Bush look at hte crowd and cameras
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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 157
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why did Bush say Kerry's Iraq plan wouldn't work, as opposed to saying that Kerry's plan was the same as his plan?
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harold
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Username: Harold

Post Number: 220
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

kerry
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Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa

Post Number: 1256
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Harold there's other threads for stupid .
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anon
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Username: Anon

Post Number: 1418
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Jim Lehrer did an excellent job.
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Mark Fuhrman
Citizen
Username: Mfpark

Post Number: 673
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Friday, October 1, 2004 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think this debate changed many undecided minds (at least not the people I spoke to today). But it did stop his slide. Now, instead of being defined by Bush and not defining himself very well, Kerry is seen as substantial in his own right. Even Fox et al say this.

He now has a chance of swaying undecideds in the next debate, IF he performs as well as he did here and IF Bush is as weak as he was here. But the Town Hall forum with fixed questions may show Bush in a better light.

At least it is now a horse race. The battle is finally joined.
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Michael Janay
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Username: Childprotect

Post Number: 896
Registered: 1-2003


Posted on Saturday, October 2, 2004 - 12:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This was a battle for soundbites to use against each other and the Bush campaign clearly won.

The Bush campaign got 3 major Kerry quotes that Kerry is already trying to do damage control on and Kerry got smirks that most guys in middle america think was Bush's way of saying "you a-hole", and they like it because they were smirking at Kerry's answers too.
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ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof

Post Number: 2891
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Saturday, October 2, 2004 - 10:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ahhh, so statesman-like.
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Dave
Citizen
Username: Dave

Post Number: 82
Registered: 4-1998


Posted on Saturday, October 2, 2004 - 12:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the smirking was an intentional play to his core supporters, he should probably get better advice, like "it's the undecideds who will sway the election."

I think what we saw was someone so outmatched in the brains department he was panicky. I'd like to get Gladwell's take on Bush's simian face dances.

http://www.gladwell.com/2002/2002_08_05_a_face.htm


quote:


[....]


"Mr. Philby," he is asked. "Mr. Macmillan, the foreign secretary, said there was no evidence that you were the so-called third man who allegedly tipped off Burgess and Maclean. Are you satisfied with that clearance that he gave you?"

Philby answers confidently, in the plummy tones of the English upper class. "Yes, I am."

"Well, if there was a third man, were you in fact the third man?"

"No," Philby says, just as forcefully. "I was not."

Ekman rewound the tape, and replayed it in slow motion. "Look at this," he said, pointing to the screen. "Twice, after being asked serious questions about whether he's committed treason, he's going to smirk. He looks like the cat who ate the canary." The expression was too brief to see normally. But at quarter speed it was painted on his face—the lips pressed together in a look of pure smugness. "He's enjoying himself, isn't he?" Ekman went on. "I call this—duping delight— the thrill you get from fooling other people." Ekman started the VCR up again. "There's another thing he does." On the screen, Philby was answering another question. "In the second place, the Burgess-Maclean affair has raised issues of great"— he pauses— "delicacy." Ekman went back to the pause, and froze the tape. "Here it is,"he said. "A very subtle microexpression of distress or unhappiness. It's only in the eyebrows— in fact, just in one eyebrow." Sure enough, Philby's right inner eyebrow was raised in an unmistakable A.U. one. "It's very brief," Ekman said. "He's not doing it voluntarily. And it totally contradicts all his confidence and assertiveness. It comes when he's talking about Burgess and Maclean, whom he had tipped off. It's a hot spot that suggests, 'You shouldn't trust what you hear.' "
[....]


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