| Author |
Message |
    
Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 3000
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 - 3:07 pm: |     |
http://cars.blogs.ca/2006/02/06/hydrogen-powered-honda-fcx-to-go-into-production
Still a few years off from introduction to US market, but pretty neat feat of engineering. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4028
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 - 3:12 pm: | |
Is it not the case that hydrogen will destroy the ozone layer? |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1536
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 - 3:14 pm: | |
it is not the case. |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 1768
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 - 3:42 pm: | |
except all the nuclear energy that will be needed to generate hydrogen -- well, that could be a problem...
(current technology = generating hydrogen will use more electricty and have more CO2 as a byproduct, than internal combustion - by far. if you add in the storage issues, at least for many many years, this is a pipedream)
/p |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 2138
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 - 3:44 pm: | |
I won't drive that thing.
 |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4029
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 - 4:15 pm: | |
Libertarian,
Are you sure? A lot of H2 will escape and rise up to the ozone layer. Won't it react with the 03 in the ozone layer to form water? |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1538
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 - 4:24 pm: | |
this actually happens in the engine and the emission is h2o.
the car itself will never be mass produced as hydrogen is way to expensive to produce.
the future of cars is corn. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12366
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 - 4:35 pm: | |
Or maybe the future of cars is eliminating them. Private transportation may prove to be too inefficient, no matter how efficient the engine is.
|
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4030
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 - 4:42 pm: | |
Libertarian,
I know the hydrogen that is burned becomes water. But, a LOT of H2 will escape into the atmosphere. It is a very small atom and can fit through some pretty small holes. |
Eponymous
Citizen
Username: Eponymous
Post Number: 66
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 7, 2006 - 5:28 pm: | |
H2 escapes from the planet into space. Hence that whole zeppelin thing. (Brett, I suspect you were joking, but the Hindenburg explosion was determined to be due to the coating they put on the outside of it.).
Plant-based fuels would be nice, as they basically recycle CO2. I heard Linus Pauling on this about 20 years ago. He had some shrubs that he was trying to engineer to produce what amounted to diesel.
I'm a fan of the little city cars, like the Smart. These would be great in a densely populated area like NJ. |
Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 3003
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 8, 2006 - 8:48 am: | |
Sure, there are problems, but I posted this to show that other countries are seriously looking at commercial solutions to alternative fuel sources. No concept is going to be problem free--the question is, do we encourage development of new concepts to see what works, or do we trash everything before it is even delivered so that we wind up stuck in the same rut we are now stuck in? You don't like this one, fine, then show me what else works that is commercially viable. We need to do something. |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 1772
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 8, 2006 - 12:28 pm: | |
I'd rather see Honda put its development resources into ideas that are practical, in say, the next 10 - 25 years.
It almost does not matter how good a hydrogen powered car they make -- until the fuel generation, transportation, distribution issues can be resolved, its far from practical.
Thanks for posting the item -- I agree, its good to keep our thinking open.
Pete |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1539
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 8, 2006 - 2:14 pm: | |
they should produce a car that runs on methane and then pass a law that requires us to eat alot of navy beans. |
darrensager
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 292
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 2:34 pm: | |
I thought the George W buzzword was "Switchgrass" for the fuel of the future. |
Andrew N de la Torre
Citizen
Username: Delatorre
Post Number: 433
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 1:45 am: | |
Unfortunately, as noted, to produce hydrogen will waste a lot of energy. Do not see any net gain. Want to use clean technology today? Start a Biodiesel Co-op in MW/SO. There are enough fried food restaurants that could provide barrels of used veggie oil. Need about a half dozen people, any takers? Have been driving a VW TDI since 1997, when there a was push to use low sulfur diesel. Those efforts were squashed after 2000. Hopefully low sulfur diesel will start this year, but would really like to start a bio-diesel co-op.
Waste vegtable oil Bio-diesel is clean, conserves energy and overall produces less green house gases.
Looking for interested parties? |
darrensager
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 294
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 8:50 am: | |
Andrew,
I've mentioned www.greasecar.com a number of times on this website. I think the idea of putting together a co-op to collect and clean used vegtable oil is a fantastic idea.
I don't own a diesel car however I've considered purchasing one just to be able to run off used veggie oil.
Perhaps putting a listing on craigslist.org and other places you'd be able to attract more people to do this in the area? I'm sure a bunch of the local restaurants would be glad to give away their used oil instead of paying for its removal. Also it would be very interesting to find out just how often the restaurants actually turn over their oil! I would pitch in some time if I could take advantage of it in the future. Count me in. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12422
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 9:08 am: | |
I've heard the VW turbo diesel is an excellent engine, both powerful and economical. I would be tempted except that I bought a car 11 months ago and don't plan to replace it for a few years. Good luck. If you ever want to show me a "business case" for how it would save money to replace my car early, I'm all ears.
|
Andrew N de la Torre
Citizen
Username: Delatorre
Post Number: 434
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 9:51 am: | |
Up front costs for a bio-diesel reactor range from $300-1000. I would "Just do it" myself but don't have a garage. Bio-diesel can also be used in oil heated homes. It's not safe to make in the basement. If anyone has a garage and is interested, let me know.
The cost per gallon is about 25-50 cents. |
Andrew N de la Torre
Citizen
Username: Delatorre
Post Number: 435
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 9:58 am: | |
I have a 2004 TDI wagon; great on gas (about 40 mpg combined city/highway). Great acceleration (5 speed manual) and powerful (runs well loaded with wood for wood burning stove)
As a side note, I use a wood burning stove with a catalytic converter; very efficient. Only use wood from dead or already fallen trees. |
darrensager
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 296
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 10:51 am: | |
Perhaps the town could give us a place to do it? How much space is needed? Maybe we can trade some space for some fuel? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12426
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 10:56 am: | |
Very clever, darrensager!
|
Andrew N de la Torre
Citizen
Username: Delatorre
Post Number: 436
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 2:01 pm: | |
The space needed would partially depend on how waste veggie oil (WVO) and bio-diesel(BD) would be stored. For two 55 gallon drums (1 WVO and 1 BD) a single car garage should do.
As more WVO and BD are produced so does the space requirements. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12432
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 2:10 pm: | |
Did they make a Passat TDI wagon? I don't see any listed. I see Jettas, and used Jetta TDI station wagons with manual transmissions are at least $16,000. Oh well.
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Andrew N de la Torre
Citizen
Username: Delatorre
Post Number: 437
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 3:47 pm: | |
They made a passat 2004 TDI wagon with automatic transmission. Don't know about 2005 or 2006. 2006 TDI Jetta wagon not out yet. Saw a sedan on the highway the other day. Recommend the Jetta wagon, has a good amount of space for hauling things around |
Andrew N de la Torre
Citizen
Username: Delatorre
Post Number: 438
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 10:13 am: | |
Just curious, there's an empty small brick building between SO recycling center and the new animal shelter. That might be aplace the town might consider renting really cheap. It's also next to the creek, which might a good place for a micro-hydro electric generator. |
TomR
Citizen
Username: Tomr
Post Number: 978
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 1:11 pm: | |
Andrew,
Where did you see the waste vegatable oil processor for $300 - $1,000?
The processors I've seen run a few thousand dollars. Probably still worth the investment, if there are enough people willing to give the time to do the processing and use the fuel.
There's also the question of what would be a permissable location for the processor. The processing requires methanol, which we may, or may not, be permitted to store anywhere we'd like.
Also, would disposal of the waste product from the processing be a problem?
Just wondering?
TomR |
Andrew N de la Torre
Citizen
Username: Delatorre
Post Number: 440
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 8:47 pm: | |
The processors you probably saw are pre-made with a huge mark up. Kind of a rip off, in my opinion. The Model I'm considering uses a modified electric water heater. The capacity can vary from 30-100 gallons. The bulk of the price is the water heater. See below, it's fairly automated and inexpensive.
http://home.swbell.net/scrof/Biod_Proc.html
http://www.diyfuel.com/index.php?cPath=22&osCsid=135ba543478e2bd90518543cc73d586 2
|
darrensager
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 300
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 9:00 am: | |
Perhaps we can purchase a big plastic container and set it up at the recycling center to collect used vegatable oil. You're not supposed to be putting it down the drain, so maybe we can start a movement here in Maplewood to support alternative fuels. We don't need to provide any special type of bottle for people to hold the used oil before they bring it over as there are magnatudes of No. 1 and No. 2 plastic bottles and containers we purchase every day. With a secure top on the bottle they should have no spills in their cars when bringing over the used oil. Dump the used oil into the container, throw the plastic bottle into the recycling container.
There are enough people who drive Toyota Prius' and other hybrids that there is enough awareness of enviromental concerns. We could promote it through the schools, get the local restaurants on board to support the program, etc. Chances are we could collect a couple hundred gallons a week.
This little venture could prove even minorly profitable if we were able to produce more fuel than those participating could use. Use the profits to promote awareness of the program. You could also go after local Maplewood busineses who use diesel and they could advertise they support the Bio Diesel/Alternatitive Fuel program.
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Andrew N de la Torre
Citizen
Username: Delatorre
Post Number: 442
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 12:04 pm: | |
So how do we begin? |
darrensager
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 310
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 8:03 am: | |
Good question. How many people are really interested in helping out? |
Andrew N de la Torre
Citizen
Username: Delatorre
Post Number: 443
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 9:23 pm: | |
Probably, not that many. Though I hope I'm wrong. I guess it might be something to be proposed at a TC meeting. |
darrensager
Citizen
Username: Darrensager
Post Number: 314
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 1:34 pm: | |
Maybe we should just e-mail Fred Profeta first and ask? |
Klg
Citizen
Username: Klg
Post Number: 46
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 5:57 pm: | |
I think homemade biodiesel is technically taxable. In addition, biodiesel made from "yellow grease" rather than the soy or palm oil, has more impurities and requires more filtering and monitoring. You will also end up with glycerin as a byproduct of production and need to figure out where to dump it.
I think the real challenge is to get a reliable, free source of relatively unadulterated veg.oil. Some of the commercial operations out there have tie-up's with McDonald's and the like.
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Andrew N de la Torre
Citizen
Username: Delatorre
Post Number: 444
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 10:35 pm: | |
Actually, the best used vegtable oil comes from chinese retuarants. McDonald's would be the last place I would go. Glycerin can be mixed with saw dust to make fire starters for fireplaces as well as soap.
Will get Profeta's email address from MW TC web site and inquire. |
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