| Author |
Message |
    
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2357
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 2:43 pm: |     |
I read an interesting article the other day. The author was discussing a lawsuit, but he ended with a discussion of the role that journalists play in ensuring that important information is available and disclosed fully to the public. He talks about the need for transparency in justice, and that for people to have faith in the system, there needs to be sunlight shining throughout.
Quote:I feel strongly about transparency in justice – transparency as a means to inform, educate, motivate, and involve the public. That’s the press’ duty: to function as a conduit to the public for that which you have a right to know. And apart from a party’s extraordinary need for secrecy, you have the right to know everything.
Every party that risks embarrassment from disclosure of a particular body of evidence is going to claim an extraordinary need for non-disclosure. However we depend on a judicial system that understands that the people’s right to disclosure is extraordinarily more important.
The author was Tom Yeager. He was talking about the AMD vs Intel lawsuit. But he could just as easily have been talking about any lawsuit or trial that takes place in this country. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1572
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 5:56 pm: | |
the press no longer probes for truth. because of the number of news outlets budgets have been decreased due to a drop in advertising dollars. outlets can no longer afford to have reporters focus on a subject for a long time to dig out the truth. now news outlets take press releases and from government and business as truth.
yet, the media is not to blame. the american public has no interest in in depth political news. it is too hard to follow and isnt flashy enough for what has become a mentally lazy populace. they want entertainment tonight news and the weather. news outlets merely provide the product that the public wants. |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5755
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:53 am: | |
Well here is a first, I agree with Lib on something  
The news divisions might just go ahead and do the inevitable and get swallowed up by the Entertainment division.
There are very few real sources left in the media for hard news. Regardless of your affiliation, PBS is the only outlet that devotes more than 3 minutes to a story. It is kind of sad. |
TomR
Citizen
Username: Tomr
Post Number: 1005
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 12:51 pm: | |
Rastro,
Do you have a link to Mr. Yaeger's full comments?
I have some thoughts on the subject, but prefer to have a better understanding of Mr. Yaeger's point before I post.
Thanks,
TomR |
Elgato
Citizen
Username: Elgato
Post Number: 20
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 1:01 pm: | |
Ten or 15 years ago the media was owned by hundreds of different companies. Now it's down to, I believe, 6 corporations. They own tv, books, magazines. There is nothing independent anymore.
You can always tune into BBC world news on PBS morning and night to find out what's happening outside our borders.
I disagree with Libertarian. His views are what the media wants us to believe. Missing white girls don't provide any more ratings than actual news. It just takes away from the time that any program can devote to actual news. With all the news stories like the Coingate scandal in Ohio, 2 other Republican indictments, details of Scooter Libby's testimony on the Valerie Plame case that were kept out of the media this week, there's a real possibility that Cheney shot that guy on purpose (of course I jest). The average American doesn't understand the details of the Plame case, the Downing Street Memo, the incidents that lead up to the war in Iraq, the non-factual nature of Colin Powell's speech in front of the UN, the pre-9/11 energy meetings with Dick Cheney, the public does not know the details of these because the government simply does not want the public to know. Exactly why the press is complicit in the distribution of news, especially from this administration and complicit in obfuscating,ignoring or misrepresenting as they are currently trying to frame the Abramoff story as a bi-partisan story is not exactly clear. I personally think that there is a combination of indimidation, payoffs and threats of all kinds to the media players as well as a laziness and the unwillingness for one reporter to break out of the mainstream.
In short, if General Electric who makes war material, owns NBC and MSNBC, then surely there is a conflict of interest. There is certainly not a lack of financing. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1579
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 3:22 pm: | |
the public does not know the details of these because the government simply does not want the public to know
i strongly disagree. this info is readily available if you know where to look. the public doesnt know because the public is too lazy to learn about it.
Missing white girls don't provide any more ratings than actual news. It just takes away from the time that any program can devote to actual news
i disagree again. people are much more interested in sordid tales of murder than with the intricacies of government policy. the former requires much less thinking. also, it is an easier and cheaper news story to produce. reporter goes to sight of murder, interviews detective and victims family, reporter goes home. end of story. certainly fewer resources are necessary for that than an investigation of government policy or incident which requires the long term cultivation of sources and tenacity to sift through reams of information and paperwork.
its cheaper to give the people what they want, gossip, rumors, and tales of failed hollywood marriages, than what they need. |
Elgato
Citizen
Username: Elgato
Post Number: 21
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 3:28 pm: | |
Then what does it say about the American public? Is it the fault of the education system? Why are people in other countries who much better informed and want to be? I wrote on another link yesterday that the children's news in other countries is more informative than the adult version in this. When you are in Europe they watch CNN International...At various sections they switch back for their American viewers (presumably to the same old crap) while the international version carries on with the informative programming. I assume this is because the audience there wouldn't put up with our version and would just switch off. It's the same for the history channel. They have fantastic programming of world history and we have mostly just anything that involves the USA. If you're right in your assumptions this opens a whole new area of discussion as to WHY? |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1584
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 8:13 pm: | |
the entitlement society has relieved people of personal responsibility and made them lazy and spoiled. |
Elgato
Citizen
Username: Elgato
Post Number: 22
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 8:17 pm: | |
I would say there is more of an entitlement society in Europe given the more generous welfare system, medical set up, less expensive college fees etc. than here so that argument doesn't work. I think the American public wants to be informed as much as anyone else but have to go elsewhere (internet?) for their information. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1586
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:19 pm: | |
I think the American public wants to be informed as much as anyone else
if that were true then someone would be providing it and making a fortune. no one is so no one must want it. |
Elgato
Citizen
Username: Elgato
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 9:14 am: | |
Well, maybe, but it's a sad state of affairs if everything has to come down to the $. What happened to plain old 'thirst for knowledge'? Or are we back simply to 'knowledge is power' and there are obvious benefits to having an uniformed populace? |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1587
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 12:05 pm: | |
Or are we back simply to 'knowledge is power' and there are obvious benefits to having an uniformed populace?
i think the current state of the white house proves this point |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 688
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 7:42 pm: | |
You folks are hilarious and this thread is hilarious. International news is no different than the news we get over here. But, I guess, many of you will take any pot shots you can at your own country. If the rest of the world is so smart then why do they all strive to our level of success? Don't answer that. I realize most of you don't consider us successful. Some of you really should travel overseas and see how these people live before you start making slanderous comments about America. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1567
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 8:51 pm: | |
Yes, Southerner:
We should travel overseas and see how these people live:
Germans with five to six week annual vacations, universal health care, and free university education at some of the best technical schools in the world
Swedes, with 5 weeks annual vacations, universal education and health care, and 99% literacy
Norwegians, rich with their North Sea oil petroleum fund, 5 weeks annual vacation, universal health care coverage, universal free education, literacy 99%, poverty 0.
These people pay higher taxes than we do, yes, but everyone is covered for health insurance and education up through university, each country has well-established elder care programs and centers for their aging populations, and high touch home care programs for the elderly or invalid who desire to remain in their own homes.
Republic of Ireland, where I come from, was one of the poorest European countries until the Celtic Tiger broke loose 20 years ago. Even as a poor country, it offered universal health care coverage and universal education up to and including university.
And guess what? In addition, these countries have the focus and ability to have developed and implemented a well-designed and well-controlled immigration program, inspite of the fact that there are people from Eastern Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, Equatorial Africa, and all parts of Asia immigrating into them.
Perhaps YOU should travel overseas to a few more places before you level insinuations and innuendo at countries and areas you obviously know nothing about. |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5767
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 8:56 pm: | |
Quote:International news is no different than the news we get over here.
This is flat out Horse Hockey. If you think this is true, there is no helping you. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1568
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 9:08 pm: | |
Duncan,
I think that when people are narrow-minded, everything they see is through the lens of the narrow mind. It's a self-limiting view and a set of self-fulfilling "prophecies" that they deal with. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 690
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 8:46 am: | |
Inni,
You are so far left you are lost. Your entire post is ridiculous. I love this and love the fact that you live in a country you can't stand. I can understand it though since you've been brave enough to travel all of about 25 miles into the New World. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1572
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 11:41 am: | |
Southerner:
for what it's worth:
5 years in North Carolina (Research Triangle), 4 years in Texas (EDS), 6 years in NYC (Wall Street), 6 living in NJ, 3 in Washington state with a little company called Microsoft.
I'll bet my experience and insight about diverse aspects of this country (which I like a lot, but which is failing a lot of its citizens) and at least 4 other countries against your fundamental ignorance and narrow-mindedness any day. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1573
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 11:52 am: | |
I should also mention Vermont, where I have had a place for the past 5 years, and where it seems I am part of the local community. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 692
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 12:31 pm: | |
Sounds like you can't keep a job. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1574
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 2:05 pm: | |
I don't keep a job because I keep getting better offers all the time. And starting businesses of my own.
Where have you been, that you can say "Some of you really should travel overseas and see how these people live"?
I would love to know.
The very phrase "these people" indicates a profound lack of knowledge of anything beyond whatever narrow borders you call your own.
IMHO. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 694
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 2:25 pm: | |
Inni,
Is this a case of mine is bigger than yours. I never asked to know of all the places you lived or have traveled to. This isn't 3rd grade. I just find it hilarious that of all the places you could live you chose to live in this country that is so worse off than Europe. It must be no fun waking up in a self constructive bubble.
And in regards to the better offers and starting my business comment, my brother lin aw says the same stuff every time he is shown the door. I must question your wordliness when you make a claim that the European press is so much better than ours. Then again if Duncan agrees with you then you must be right. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1575
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 4:40 pm: | |
Southerner:
You opined that I hadn't gone farther than 25 miles into this country. I have apparently experienced more of it (and more of the world) than you, and decided to refute your point.
And, thank you, I have been and still am successful in what I do.
None of that should be construed as "mine is bigger than yours". Perhaps it should be construed as "mine is more experienced than yours." And just perhaps smarter as well.
I believe when you make an unfounded, stupid statement such as "you should travel overseas to see how these people live," you should be called out for it.
That was my entire point. And it's a point you should think about.
Your comments verge on the imbecilic.
By the way: Your quote from above: "I must question your wordliness when you make a claim that the European press is so much better than ours."
I'm not sure why you mention that as regards me above. It's not a citation from my posts on this thread, but seems to refer to your own sentence "International news is no different than the news we get over here."
So it sounds as though you got mixed up and are arguing with yourself.
Southerner, leave home. Try Sweden. It'll at least make sure that you become literate. That might help you.
|
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 696
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 6:48 pm: | |
Inni,
I am not so insecure as to have to list my accomplishments or movements on an anonymous message board. If that is an exhaustive list then my frequent flier account is larger than yours if you're keeping score. But since you seem to think Europe is so much better then why don't you move over there. I've been to Sweden and I'll take the USA any time. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1577
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 7:09 pm: | |
Southerner:
That's the old "if you don't like it here, go back where you came from." I would have expected to read that from some quarters in the 1960s or 1970s.
It's a pity that it confirms my suspicion that your brain and mindset are still back there.
By the way, I don't keep score. Don't even need to think about it. Obviously, you do.
As I said, try Sweden. Try something. I believe you need help pulling your head out from wherever it's been lodged. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3219
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 7:16 pm: | |
Southerner doesn't parade his achievements because there's probably nothing there. What he does parade, is his exclusively backward and stubbornly reactionary approach to any progressive thought or opinion. He should find a role in some Carson McCullers drama about the lost South. "Ballad of the Sad Cafe," or something. |
Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 284
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 8:03 pm: | |
Innis,
Let's think about some of the down-side to all this socialism...Compulsory military service, $6 gallons of gas...third world refugees...tell the people in France who were rioting all summer that they have "0 poverty". WIll be up in Manchestah this weekend scouting locations for summer retreat. |
CLK
Supporter
Username: Clkelley
Post Number: 1956
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 8:07 pm: | |
Innis, you should instead engage him on why he found your earlier post "ridiculous." Why exactly is it ridiculous?
Innis presented a number of factual statements about the Europeans. Southerner, are these statements incorrect? Or do they hide something about the countries of Germany, Sweden, Norway, and the Republic of Ireland that would serve to balance what Innisowen said? i.e., what exactly do you find ridiculous? That would provide a far more interesting discussion than ad hominem arguments.
Innis made several supportable (or refutable) statements about European countries. Southerner simply said "that's ridiculous", suggested that Innisowen "can't stand" the country where he now lives, and traveled "all of 25 miles into the New World." I.e., made an ad hominem argument rather than dealing with the substance of Innisowen's post. That, my friends, is bad debating and simply boring.
I have never lived in the Republic of Ireland but go there every year for two weeks, as my in-laws live there. I must say that they sure figured out something right over there - the economy is booming, the population is very educated and healthy, and the news coverage that this tiny island country provides for its population is far, far superior to what our behemoth info-tainment industry provides to us. And they think that my four weeks' paid vacation (very good by American standards) is pathetic. They are aghast that most members in my family have to work during the week between Christmas and New Year, and even on St. Stephens Day (the day after Christmas) - there would be a revolt if people had to work that week in Ireland. The place is not without problems - for example, the attitudes of some of the older generation towards working moms gets on my nerves on occasion. But all in all they're doing something right over there and we could learn a lot from them.
One of the marks of leadership is to be able to look at yourself, and recognize where you could improve. This doesn't mean that you "hate yourself." It means that you recognize that growth is possible. This goes for countries as well as for individuals. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 701
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 8:38 pm: | |
CLK,
I didn't realize we were debating. Is that what we are doing? You gotta love the one-two combo of Inni and tulip. Priceless. What I love the most is that folks like Inni make such ridiculous claims yet here they are. If I truly believed there was a better place to live then I would move tomorrow. Actions speak louder than words and we see where Inni lays down at night. And please, before we move on, can you please give me a detailed description of all schooling, degrees obtained, all management positions you have held, and a copy of your last 10 W-2's. I need all this before I will discuss any topic further with you. You may be beneath me so I don't want to waste my valuable time on this extremely important and not remotely trivial message board! |
Mustt_mustt
Citizen
Username: Mustt_mustt
Post Number: 552
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 8:45 pm: | |
Libertarian,
You make some good points but please keep in mind that scholarly research has proven that "the more one watches tv (news), the more ignorant one becomes" and that it engenders apathy whereby citizen subjects become apathetic to real world problems. Why do you think "global citizenship" and "civic engagement" have become the buzzwords on American campuses? Simply because, educators have realized that quick "soundbytes" on world events will not further a critical understanding of them on the part of students who are made to think more like citizen-soldiers than citizen-voters.
If you take a careful look, the news that goes in the guise of "world news" on all three networks is basically about the US and hardly has a mention about the rest of the world. In comparison, the BBC (and I can say of Indian tv news channels)have a much more balanced reportage of world news. A lot of what ails US media coverage is its ownership patterns and its total dumbing down of news coverage, not to forget our pathological obsession with celebrity culture. What is sadly missing in the news is ANALYSIS from all sides that would go some way in educating us about issues than obfuscating them. It's true that CNN International is much more eminently watchable than our domestic version.
You might argue for the ubiquitous presence of the internet but the questions of access and interest complicate it a little bit. |
CLK
Supporter
Username: Clkelley
Post Number: 1958
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 8:48 pm: | |
All I can say is that this shows a real lack of courage, Southerner.
Address the facts and deal with them - that's what I respect, and what everybody should respect. Ad hominem arguments are a sign of weakness and lack of faith in (or knowledge of) your own position. |
kmk
Supporter
Username: Kmk
Post Number: 1032
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 8:51 pm: | |
Who is this Southerner?
700 posts and all of them vitriol?
Why is he even here? He seems so unhappy with the community and yet claims he loves his country...... |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1579
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 9:15 pm: | |
Grrr:
This country had compulsory military service until after the VietNam war. Now the military is a place for minorities to get an MOS that MAY, just MAY translate into a job in civilian life.
National service in European countries is viewed as an obligation to the country. Nothing wrong with that, is there?
To be obligated to serve your country? What a thought.
In case you haven't noticed, our dependency on oil has moved our prices up too, not as much as in European countries. But do you really think we're ever going back to a buck a gallon.
By the way, have you ever compared the public transportation infrastructures of European countries to ours? If not, you'd be in for a surprise about how easy it is to get around in European countries without using a car every day.
3rd world refugees?
What do you think is coming across the southern border of the US, without control, without process, and with border incursions on US territory by the Mexican Army?
Where have you been?
As to France: well, you brought up France as an example, I didn't. I don't know what the poverty rate is. I can tell you with a fair degree of precision what the literacy rate is, and it is way higher than that of the US. And I can tell you what the average worker's vacation and health benefits are. And they make us pale by comparison.
People (like Southerner) often act and think as though it is unpatriotic to make those comparisons. I believe we still have a way to go in this country. Assuming that we can't learn from observing other countries is a sure way to move us not forward, but continuously backward.
Well, maybe some people want backward movement. I pity them.
A word of advice re Manchester... Castleton, Fair Haven, Lake Bomoseen, Sudbury, and Cornwall apparently have some interesting places that will come on the market in the next two months, according to my realtor friends in VT.
We're even looking to see if we find something that would make us want to sell our current place. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1580
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 9:25 pm: | |
Southerner:
I apologize for having to say this, but, the more you write, the more witless, clueless, and obdurate you appear.
No one is suggesting that you move somewhere else (although a long-term change of scenery would probably do wonders for your world view). It's just such a puzzle that you can't tolerate comparisons where the US comes up short.
You talk about "ridiculous claims." That phrase merely reinforces how narrow-minded you are and what large blinders you must be wearing as you look at "the world' every day.
Poor guy or girl, whatever you are. You may be beyond hope. And your backward thinking only gets more and more obvious.
And I may lie in the US at night, but I carry both a US passport AND an Irish one. Just in case people like you become too numerous in this country. |
Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 285
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 9:31 pm: | |
Innis, I don't feel the need to outline my world travels here...what I know from personal experience is that the public transportation infrastructure required a lot of bikeriding on my part...lol! Yes I am aware that there are a lot of third world refugees right here in my own backyard...my point was that Europe was not quite the utopia you purport it to be...in many ways they are worse off than we are, or at the very least just as bad off...
We have 5 or 6 appointments already set up to look at properties... |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1581
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 10:02 pm: | |
Grrrrr.
It seems you think I am saying Europe is utopia. Far from it. I have been trying to say that this country can learn a lot of things from European countries, just as they learned a lot from this country.
What scares me is the "fix bayonets" posture I see when someone dares to make comparisons.
By the way, it's been my experience that the VT market is getting significantly overpriced, and realtors aren't always thorough in showing you real comparables so you get a sense of whether a house is overpriced or not. Doing your own legwork on the web will pay off a lot. IMHO. |
Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 286
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 11:00 pm: | |
We have a realtor that we've worked with in the past, and tons of legwork has been done on the web already!
I agree with you 100% that we can learn a great many things from European Countries. TO think that we could ever adopt a program of socialized medicine in this country is pure fantasy. You don't have to look any further than the Insurance Lobby. I know I've jsut opened the door to some shots about Republicans pandering to large corporations, but save it please. These pissing matches are pointless...If forced to, I'll just go and find 100 examples of Democrats pandering to large corporations or special interests... |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1582
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 11:08 pm: | |
Good, then you've won half the battle with VT.
And as to dems pandering. you will find me in 110% agreement. For me the issue is that neither party is about setting this country on a corrected course. Setting the right conditions to invest in and support business innovation that creates new job opportunities here is as foreign to one party as the other.
Good luck retreat-hunting.
We're off to ski tomorrow through Friday. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2364
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:26 am: | |
TomR, sorry for the delay. Haven't been to the Soapbox in a few days. Here's a link to the original article. But remember, this was not an article about freedom of the press. It was about the AMD vs Intel battle and the public's representation (or lack thereof) in it.
http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/02/01/74852_06OPcurve_1.html |
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