| Author | Message | ||
     las Citizen Username: Las Post Number: 983 Registered: 10-2003 |
mjh, I was just asking. From where I sit, I see parents trying to direct toddlers down the aisles while holding their babies and bags, and car seats that end up getting checked after they've been brought to the seats, and strollers left at the gate, and families that can't always sit together and they pass the kids back and forth - not to mention trying to keep the kids quiet and entertained for the duration. It looks exhausting from my seat and I asked if it was worth it, or if parents come home and say never again. Didn't intend to be wierd - just curious is all. | ||
| bmpsab Citizen Username: Bmpsab Post Number: 193 Registered: 3-2001 |
Ok, personal pet peeve. Why aren't we supposed to put a coat in the overhead bin?!! When I travel for business I often don't have a carry on (I do a lot of day trips to Boston and DC). I do however have a big coat (its cold out). I am always being told by the flight attendants that I will have to hold my coat in my lap for the trip (which is uncomfortable) so that people can all fit their huge bags that they should have checked anyway. Why can't they sit with their bag in their lap? Why is my coat not worthy of bin status if I am not putting anything else into the bins? (By the way, I don't care if my coat gets squished in the bin, I just don't want it in my lap.) Ok, rant over. | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 6758 Registered: 5-2001  |
Bmp - The idea of the overhead coat ban is to make sure that there is room for things like luggage which can't go under a seat. That said, I've only seen a coat evicted from the overhead once, when the plane was jam packed at Xmas time. Usually, coats get moved & crammed on top of suitcases & no one cares. BTW - for day trips to DC, try the Acela out of Newark Penn. Between airport security & plane crap, it's just as fast & so much more pleasant. I love being able to go hop the next train if my meetings end early. And Union Station in DC is beautiful. | ||
| wnb Citizen Username: Wnb Post Number: 323 Registered: 8-2001 |
las, It is exhausting flying with kids? Sure, it can be. Is it more exhausting than driving the same distance with kids? Not bloody likely. Is something that is exhausting and a bit difficult to do, by definition, not worth doing? Well you decide. Is it the parents' fault that flying is so godawful uncomfortable, inconvenient, expensive, annoying, and generally miserable, or is it the airlines' fault? Why anyone would want to carry on more than was absolutely necessary, I'll never understand. I will check any and everything I can. If I need to carry a lot I have even been known to ship a box out and back separately. I love the airline industry. They've taken the one of the most potentially liberating, most freespirited ideas humans could devise, soaring through the air, and made it the most oppressive, uncomfortable, and restrictive form of travel possible. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12563 Registered: 1-2003  |
las, parenting is like that. You see it when travelling, but it's like that behind closed doors, too. It's like that every day for some periods. It's terribly challenging and exhausting, and the rewards might be deep, but they come in brief moments. You might say parents are crazy to have kids. I can't argue with that. And I have not perceived you to have said that kids are not worth it. I'm just saying that we take our rewards, in whatever form they are in, even though we put up with frequent difficulties. While travelling, what puzzles me is that people want to board early. Why!? I want to be the last to board. It shortens my time on the plane. My seat is reserved, so I am confident I'll get the right one, even if I'm last. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3376 Registered: 5-2001  |
Me too. What makes people think an airline seat is their personal Barca-lounger. I've found the perfect solution: http://www.kneedefender.com/ I love the look on the face of the moose in front of me desperately trying to recline being stopped dead in his tracks by 2 small pieces of plastic.  | ||
| Meandtheboys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 3048 Registered: 12-2004  |
FWIW, my husband and I took our kids to an all inclusive in the dominican republic a couple years back. Yeah, getting there and back was a byotch. But we had the nicest time just being together and having fun and not having to worry about doing anything except hang out and enjoy ourselves. And, it was whole week spent with daddy, all day. It really was wonderful. Would I like to go away with just my husband to a nice warm place for a while? You betcha, but it's hard to find anyone to take all three of our kids. So I guess we do what we can for now, and enjoy traveling alone when the kids are older. | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3377 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom, Boarding early is key to getting decent overhead space. I always try to avoid checking luggage because of the outrageous amount of time baggage claim requires (ESPECIALLY at Newark) - so having overhead space is key. | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 3157 Registered: 5-2001 |
If you board early, you get a chance to put your oversized bag into that overhead bin before other inconsiderate people fill it up with their oversized bags and prevent you from doing so ... thereby forcing you to gate check it (heaven forbid!) PS - To las or anyone else - Gate checking a stroller is not a bad thing because you can get it back right there at the gate in order to put the kid in the stroller for that long walk back to the baggage claim. It is what is recommended to parents by the airlines as well as by common sense. Carseats, on the other hand, are a different story, but if there is a chance of getting an empty seat for the kid, sometimes it is worth the schlep to take a chance on getting an empty seat for the kid and his/her seat. And, with airfares what they are, don't blame parents for not paying for a seat if they don't have to, so long as they know the odds. (We did it, successfully, more times than not - but that was in the days that we could schedule our flights (even the holiday ones) at slightly less heavily traveled times ... since we didn't have our travel schedule dictated by school calendars.) | ||
| sportsnut Citizen Username: Sportsnut Post Number: 2311 Registered: 10-2001  |
The bottom line is that for some reason or another certain people don't think the rules apply to them. There would be no need to rush onto a plane to get that valuable overhead space if people followed the rules and put a normal carry-on bag there in the first place. Its a domino effect. As an aside, when my son was smaller I could never imagine not buying him a seat. I just couldn't have him sit in my lap for two or more hours it would have made the travel excruciating. Does it really save time by not checking your bags? If so how much does it really save? If you're a business traveller don't you take car service? Doesn't the driver help with your luggage? Generally they wait for you by the baggage claim area so they're assuming that you have bags, no? | ||
| greenetree Supporter Username: Greenetree Post Number: 6759 Registered: 5-2001 |
If people would put their children in the overhead compartment, it would free up seats & cut down on the kids' carry-on luggage & car seats. Just wrap them in the bulky coats so they don't bounce around too much. | ||
| Case Citizen Username: Case Post Number: 1148 Registered: 2-2005 |
And the lack of oxygen will help keep them relaxed and quiet, too... another bonus. | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 1931 Registered: 6-2002  |
MHD, I'm getting one of those thingamabobs - thanks for that link. Once, I nearly had my neck broken as I was stooping down to get something when the nose-hole in front of me reclined his seat suddenly. Another time, a lummox nearly broke my laptop. A third time, somebody reclined onto a knee that was recovering from an injury. A fourth time, somebody spilled my drink in my lap as he reclined while we were still eating. The past few flights I've been on, the creeps in front of me have reclined even before we finished the ascent - and pretended to be asleep when the flight attendants came by telling them to put the seat up for descent. (I know they were pretending because of the fact that they were moving around, restlessly, until the FA showed up - and then suddenly they were sawing away.) And the FA's didn't do ANYTHING about it. | ||
| sac Supporter Username: Sac Post Number: 3159 Registered: 5-2001 |
Worst is when you pay for a seat for the kid and then have to hold them in your lap anyway (as an alternative to having a screaming kid.) | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12578 Registered: 1-2003 |
Please explain why, if the seat reclines, I'm not supposed to use that feature. And I am allowed to use it, but only if the flight is longer than a certain amount of time. And how long is that amount? And is this generally accepted as the standard etiquette? My question would hold more weight if the airlines gave us enough room for our seats to recline. I like to recline it not to sleep but it's more comfortable that way. | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 1932 Registered: 6-2002 |
You can recline - but as a courtesy, you shouldn't do it suddenly, but should warn the person in back of you so that they can take precautions. Or even ask you not to, if they have an injury where this could cause real damage. | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 1933 Registered: 6-2002 |
Tom, here is what Miss Manners has to say: http://www.kneedefender.com/html2/etiquette.htm? She says it is the airline's fault. | ||
| redY67 Citizen Username: Redy67 Post Number: 4882 Registered: 2-2003  |
greene I love it, kids in the overhead compartment, now if only we could get the airlines on board.... | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12581 Registered: 1-2003 |
That's truly lovely. I love the way she puts things. But I don't see that there's anything we can do about the airline's rudeness. | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 1936 Registered: 6-2002 |
Probably not. But I tend to think that it's up to the person taking an action to take the high road. So if you're going to recline, simply look back, and ask the person in back of you if she would mind if you reclined the seat a bit. Of course, there is a risk that she will say that she does mind. If you really don't want that risk, you could just say, "Pardon me madam, I'm reclining my seat now in case you need to move anything." But on the rare occasions when people have actually asked before reclining, I've always said yes and been very happy to say yes. It probably goes beyond what is necessary - but in such crowded conditions, doesn't it make sense to be as considerate as possible? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12582 Registered: 1-2003 |
Sure. What you say makes plenty of sense. I'll be flying tomorrow, so I'll do something like that. Thanks, Miss Manners Junior. | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 1938 Registered: 6-2002 |
Tom Reingold called ME Miss Manners Junior!  I need a dancing happy icon .... where does JTA get those things? | ||
| doulamomma Citizen Username: Doulamomma Post Number: 1051 Registered: 3-2002 |
"Those computers are one of the reasons we’re on that plane, we’re going to use them when we get to our final destination." Brett, when my ski boots are in the overhead (as part of my smaller than allowed carry on), they are a big part of the reason I'M flying - I'm carrying them on because they are extremely expensive (have custom inserts etc.) and would be hard as hell to replace and loss of them would really make my trip a misery - I'm going to use them when I get to my destination - kind of like your laptop. Business travel is certainly key to the airline industry, but the individuals travelling for business are not more important than the individuals traveling for pleasure...they just have more frequent flyer miles - not ownership in the airlines. That said, people who board with giant shopping bags, boxes held together with twine, strange smelling food, the need to talk to the stanger next to them for hours...yep, they are annoying. The blanket bit is funny - it is pretty gross. I know you're not really talking specifically to "me" & I'm also using "you" generally... Here's a business traveller quirk that I have noticed: you have work to do - I have a (bad) movie to watch/sleep to toss & turn through - you're bummed to sit next to me & my ski boots or my kid's japanese anime bag (which is stowed under his feet so he can get to his stuff with out us getting up and down)- imagine how thrilled I am that you keep your light on & your window shade up for the entire flight. las: mr. doula & I would like to take just the trip you describe - want to babysit? ;-) If not, I'm putting them in the overhead & saying that Greentree said I could! | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2157 Registered: 7-2003 |
Doulamomma, but the problem I have with that is that you must have other bags that you checked, Skis, hats,gloves, snow pants. All of that stuff should stay together. When I go on a golf trip I don’t bring my Driver on the plane, I pack it with the rest of my golf stuff. And once again I point out, just because the air line says you can bring 2 carry ons on the plane doesn’t mean you have to. Everyone knows that if all passengers brought 2 carry ons there is no way there would be enough room. | ||
| doulamomma Citizen Username: Doulamomma Post Number: 1059 Registered: 3-2002 |
Brett, I don't own skis - they are not hard for me to rent, they do not need to conform to my foot & at this point in my life they would be more trouble to maintain...if I had them, I would likely use one of the ski courier services to send them ahead, something I choose not to do for my boots b/c of all the reasons stated in my original post...I do not wish to bank on the fact that my bag will not be lost or delayed. I'm following the instructions not to pack anything of great value or that is hard to replace. I would carry on my medications if I took any, my jewels if I had some, my camera etc...They are different than my clothing/outerware. My second carry on is a purse & it fits under my seat - not in a common area, so I'm assuming that's ok with you. I am not carrying my boots on my back simply to assert my right to carry them on the plane & get my money's worth - I am doing it for a particular reason. Additionally, when they are in my backpack bag they meet size criteria for a carry on, whereas your driver/club thingey (I'm a skier - not a golfer, so I'm showing a lack of understanding & appreciation for your chosen "sport" (seems like a lot of standing around to my non-golfer eyes!) so that you can get my drift a bit better)...again, I liken my boots to your laptop as opposed to a metal or wooden stick - I agree that you shouldn't check you laptop - but according to your rules, it seems like unless you can promise that you'll use it on the flight you should really be checking your laptop - expecially since you might have packed other business things & they must all be together by category... OK - enough good natured bickering - is this what it would be like to have a brother? I feel so warm & fuzzy now!  | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 2159 Registered: 7-2003 |
YOU'RE STUPID! I'M TELLING MOM!!!! | ||
| doulamomma Citizen Username: Doulamomma Post Number: 1060 Registered: 3-2002 |
ah - brothery love... | ||
| Zoesky1 Citizen Username: Zoesky1 Post Number: 1375 Registered: 6-2003  |
Why do you guys have a problem with people who recline their seats? As Tom pointed out, why would the seats and airlines have that feature if it's not to be used? I personally hate flying -- it's crowded, uncomfortable, slow, etc., etc., so you bet your a** I'm going to recline that damn seat as far back as it can go as soon as the damn plane takes off. I am tall, too, and I need all the extra knee room I can get. If the person behind me doesn't like it, they can move or trade seats with someone else. I paid for my seat, and I'm going to do what I am entitled to do with it. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10721 Registered: 5-2001 |
Zoesky, guess you fly first class.  In coach on a lot of airlines, including Continental, the pitch between seats is so short you can't fit the meal tray on the little table when the seat in front of you is reclined, especially if you weigh more than 200 pounds. I recline also, but do so slowly to avoid getting someones knees and put the seat up at meal times. I don't think I have been on a plane in the last five years where moving your seat was possible, unless you want to sit in the middle, because of the high load factors. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 749 Registered: 10-2005 |
I have always been a firm believer in banning ALL carry on luggage...it gets in the way and delays flights and makes people cranky....i also think it is rude behavior... my wife hears this spiel everytime we board a plane.... I bring my book, my ipod and the baby bag....that's it! | ||
| MHD Citizen Username: Mayhewdrive Post Number: 3379 Registered: 5-2001 |
Not if you are sitting in front of me thanks to the http://www.kneedefender.com/!!  I am also tall & reclining has NO impact on your own "knee room".
You ever notice that seats & bathrooms on planes also still have ASHTRAYS. Ashtrays and reclining seats are both from a different era of flying. | ||
| IShep Citizen Username: Twinsmom Post Number: 134 Registered: 1-2003 |
I travel A LOT--at least domestically. I fly around 80-100K miles per year. I rely on flight hours for sleeping because I moderate focus groups at night and often have to take very early morning flights. Once someone sat behind me (Newark-LAX, note a LONG flight) and asked me not to recline my seat because he had work to do on his laptop and that his legs were very long so it was uncomfortable for him to work with a reclining seat in front of him. I had just ended my maternity leave, so needless to say I had not slept much at home. I told him NICELY that I was sorry but I needed to sleep and I really can't unless I'm reclining. I told him he might want to ask the flight attendant to be moved somewhere else. In fact there was an empty middle seat next to him and me, so that meant that the one next to me would not be reclining during the entire flight. He said, flat out, no. He wanted the aisle. I made it clear I would recline my seat. Once we were airborne I reclined my seat. He proceeded to kick and nudge my seat for about a half hour before I asked the flight attendant for some help. He became so irate that they moved him to the back of the plane--to the seat that doesn't recline. He carried on back there, screaming that he had every right to travel and work and when we arrived at LAX security was there to meet him. I don't know what happened next, but I hope I never see this creep again. I really don't understand why I shouldn't recline my seat. I don't bring my laptop on board anymore because unless I'm upgraded there is no comfortable way to work on the plane--unless I'm sitting in the bulkhead area. My personal peeve is when someone who is sitting in the back of the plane feels it's okay to put his/her bag in an overhead bin toward the front of the plane! That really creates problems when it's time to deplane. | ||
| Jhcmom Citizen Username: Jhcmom Post Number: 45 Registered: 1-2004 |
I will be travelling soon with my 3 kids by myself. After reading all of this I have been having the kids practice the "tuck" position - not for safety, but so that they will be use to it when I put them in the overhead compartment. My question is, since there are 3 of them, am I only allowed to have 2 in the overhead space or will the 3rd count as an extra piece of carry-on? If so, I will have to choose which one to allow to sit in a seat. Now, should I choose the older one who would be quiet and read his book for the flight thus causing me to continually pop up & down to bring the younger ones food & drink throughout the trip, or should I choose the younger one to sit in the seat? If so, then perhaps he would talk and interact with someone other than me, possibly violating ones personal seat space. Now, if someont has their ski boots in the overhead compartment, would they be required to check them or would I have to check one of the kids? All kidding aside, since it will be just me & the 3 kids, and we don't travel often, I can probably guess that my best laid plans will go a little awry. Yes, each kid will have a backpack with all of their "stuff" & snacks so that I don't have to carry all of it along with the needed car seat. I will go over all of the rules with them, but, they are kids. Please forgive us in advance - If you are on the flight, please try to understand that our trip is just as important as yours and as annoying it can be for some of you, just think of how the parent is "dying" inside because the kids are so excited that they are a bit loud and wiggly in their seats. PS: We will be the ones with the enormous smiles on our faces! | ||
| Garcia Citizen Username: Photojournalist Post Number: 35 Registered: 3-2005 |
jhcmom, you better make certain your kids' carry ons are fully packed (no wasted space) and that they perfect wheeling them (if applicable) or they will incur the ire of the prissy prim and proper perfect travellers. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2347 Registered: 5-2004  |
Oh where to start? A few specific comments… MHD (and Tom), I typically have me knees pressed up against the seat in front of me unless I get lucky and get upgraded. When the person in front on me tries to lean their seat back and can’t, they typically start to slam their body backward on it, hitting my knees. I usually tap them on the shoulder, and explain that the reason their seat is not moving back is because it is crushing my knees already. Usually they’re apologetic for trying to force it, but on one or two occasions, I’ve had people tell me it was my problem, and that they wanted to lean their seat back. I explain that I would be happy to do to their head what they are doing to my knees every time the push backward. Since I’m about 6’5”, 250lb, they usually don’t push this too far. But on one occasion, the person in front of me called over a flight attendant and told them they wanted to be moved. Instead, I got upgraded. IShep , It is very rare that there is an empty seat on the flights I take. If there is, I am happy to move to the middle. Or perhaps the person in front can move to the middle. My reasons having nothing to do with desires (e.g. wanting to work) but with basic physics. Two objects (the seat and my knees) cannot occupy the same space. Perhaps they need to develop quantum chairs? (sorry, yes, I’m a geek) Sportsnut, it definitely takes longer (as MHD points out, especially at Newark) to pick up a checked bag. I usually don’t have car service – I get a cab at whatever airport I’m going to. But the size of my bag is not the issue. It’s that I have to wait and hope the baggage handlers don’t destroy it or lose it (yes, I’ve had this happen several times before I learned). Las, it can be painful traveling with kids, but that’s the case no matter what mode of transportation you use. Hopefully your vacation with the kids is long enough that the few hours on the plane is dwarfed by the looks on their faces when they see Mickey, Minnie, and the rest of the Disney crew. Brett, I totally feel your pain. And I understand your frustration with people who use up overhead space unnecessarily. But if they’re not using more space than their seats allow, I chalk it up to one more thing that’s a pain about air travel. For those who question having your computer in the overhead bin, if I don’t have any other carryon, why should I not put it up there? I already have no leg room. If I put my computer under my seat, are you ok with my putting my feet under yours? Or in the aisle? I do agree that this is the airlines’ fault. However if they charged what the needed to to pay for the flights, very few people would fly. Business travelers subsidize vacationers. That is just the simple economics of it. The cost structures of most airlines do not let them decrease the number of seats on a flight, which is the only way they can alleviate the problem. Fewer seats, more room per passenger, fewer passengers. That said, this is why I like to fly Jet Blue - bigger seats and more room. But typically, more vacationers as well. As for a humorous look at this, a friend put up this web site… http://www.klomstock.com/mark/consulting/travel.html | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10724 Registered: 5-2001 |
Actually Rastro, you have to put your luggage under the seat in front of you, not under your own seat. I would love to see a guy your size in the middle of a three seater. Jhcmom, before putting the kids in the overhead compartment may I suggest a triple dose of baby Tylenol. This always put our kids out for a couple of hours. | ||
| Purplebug Citizen Username: Purplebug Post Number: 49 Registered: 10-2005 |
Baby Tylenol?!?! A thimble of scotch for all the kids, right before boarding the plane. This could be why my brother doesn't allow we to babysit anymore. Hmmmmm | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12585 Registered: 1-2003 |
The trouble with an orientation around entitlement is that entitlements conflict. There's a shortage of space we think we are entitled to. I may feel entitled to the space that my reclined seat would occupy, but the guy behind me feels entitled to it, too. As has been pointed out, the airline creates the conflict, and then they think it's up to us to decide who's entitled and who's rude. I feel I have a duty not to annoy people or take away what they are entitled to, unless their sense of entitlement is out of line. A duty-based orientation leads to fewer conflicts than an entitlement-based orientation. | ||
| mjh Supporter Username: Mjh Post Number: 383 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom, I like your orientation a lot. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2349 Registered: 5-2004 |
Bob, I flew to Paris in the middle of a three seater. I have to say, no one next to me, nor in front of me, was comfortable. I defintely blame the airline for that. How do you overbook an international flight like that? To see me, you wouldn't think I was that huge. But confined to less than 20" of leg room, it's scary. |
