| Author | Message | ||
     Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3026 Registered: 9-2001  |
Most of my neighbors and most of the people on my path to the train station shovelled their walks--thanks so much! But there are several who, either because they are away or do not care or invalid, did not shovel even the tiniest path through their sidewalk (although one did clear a path to their side door and the end of their driveway so they can get to their car and get out). There is no excuse. If you are away, arrange with a neighbor or prearrange with a snow removal service--every landscaper and their mother does it. If you are an invalid, sorry, you can still arrange for someone to do it for you. If you cannot afford it, well, perhaps you cannot afford to live independently or you do not know how to ask your neighbors for help--even though I rent, I helped out several neighbors, and offered my services to a friend in town who was not sure she could shovel it herself. It is basic courtesy to clear your sidewalk. Kind of like the thread about someone pissed off that a dog pissed all over her rhododendrun bush right near her house. So, today as my dog and I were climbing over and through still knee-deep snow on some sidewalks, it hit me. If these people do not care enough about me to clear their sidewalks, why should I care enough about them to curb my dog when on their property? In fact, why bother even picking up his poop when on their property? I'll be the guy dragging a half-squatting dog along yelling, no, don't poop yet, save it for the next yard! | ||
| thegoodsgt Citizen Username: Thegoodsgt Post Number: 920 Registered: 2-2002  |
Amen, amen, I say, amen! | ||
| las Citizen Username: Las Post Number: 955 Registered: 10-2003 |
But there are several who, either because they are away or do not care or invalid... Or because they don't read this board and don't know it is a town rule; or because they had a family emergency; or because they had to make alternate childcare arrangements due to school closing and hadn't a moment to spare yesterday and hope to get to it today; or because their cat ran away and they are afraid to move the scent by displacing the snow; etc., etc., etc! Shovel your neighbor's sidewalk if it's such a big deal to you. It might not kill you, but it most certainly will save you some aggravation. | ||
| ril Citizen Username: Ril Post Number: 474 Registered: 6-2001 |
And it doesn't help at all if people shovel their sidewalk but don't bother to do the curb cuts--everyone ends up walking in the street (yoo hoo, house on the corner of Sloan & 2nd, where the commuters need to pass...) | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3028 Registered: 9-2001 |
Sorry, Las, my dog and I are taking divine retribution. There is no excuse for not cutting even a small path through the snow, or arranging for someone else to do it. Everyone knows that it is the law to shovel their sidewalks, and beyond that it is simple common courtesy. I am sure when you owned a home you shovelled or had it done no matter what happened because you are a responsible person who thinks about others. I always pick up after my dog regardless of whether my back is sore or I have the flu because that is the right thing to do. But I am starting to wonder why I bother doing that in front of some yards when they could care less about anyone else. | ||
| las Citizen Username: Las Post Number: 956 Registered: 10-2003 |
Herein, Eats, you (and others) are suffering from righteous indignation. Every time it snows you gripe, yet no one has yet told a tale of knocking on someone's door see if they can help out, or find out what the problem is. You just don't know why a person doesn't shovel. You have no idea what goes on behind closed doors, why shoveling isn't the number one priority for a specific homeowner. The neighborly thing would be to inquire if everything is okay and to offer your assistance. It really will be less aggravating just walking over with your shovel and doing it yourself. | ||
| johnny Citizen Username: Johnny Post Number: 1558 Registered: 5-2001 |
Snow is water. Poop is poop. Poop doesn't melt. Curb your dog. | ||
| CFA Citizen Username: Cfa Post Number: 1567 Registered: 5-2001  |
Don't curb your dog. You could fall and break your neck on their sidewalks but if they step in the poop, all they get are stinky shoes. | ||
| Ond Citizen Username: Ond Post Number: 67 Registered: 3-2004 |
I don't think expecting to be able to walk your dog, walk to school, walk to the train, etc. safely equals righteous indignation. On my block, we don't knock on door's to see if anybody needs help with their walk. Their are a couple of guys with snowblowers who do their neighbors' walks. I know my next door neighbor has some medical problems, so I try to get out early so I can do his walk. But you can't expect people to go out and shovel for people they don't know, or are too lazy to shovel, etc. ES&L had the perfect example of someone who was able to shovel their car out, but not their walk. Shovelling doesn't have to be someone's # 1 priority, but it has to be enough of a priority that people can safely get to school or work. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12503 Registered: 1-2003  |
Another thing a resident can do, if he can't afford to pay for help, is to ask a neighbor for a favor. If a neighbor asked me to clear his sidewalk, I would. I also do it without asking, if I'm the first out shoveling. las, I agree we should give our neighbors the benefit of the doubt, but there's a limit. If they haven't done anything by today, it might be because they don't plan to. The snow fell two days ago. If they did the walk between their side door and the driveway but not the public sidewalk, it's a bad sign. If this is what they normally do in every snow storm, that's an even worse sign. | ||
| las Citizen Username: Las Post Number: 957 Registered: 10-2003 |
Alternatively, it might simply be a sign that the neighbor does not read MOL hence don't know it is a Township rule to clear their sidewalk. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12504 Registered: 1-2003 |
True, las, he may not know, but that would be pretty ignorant. Maybe we should remind people of their duty, but it's a duty everywhere I've ever been, and the neighbor could observe what everyone else does and take a clue. ESL, I trust you're joking about taking revenge by shirking your cleanup duties. | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3029 Registered: 9-2001 |
Actually, Las, I did offer to shovel someone out this storm who I thought might have needed help--she did not take me up on my offer. I shovelled with the neighbor on the corner because he has a huge corner lot (and he also feeds me periodically), and I shovelled out for my landlord because the guy he hires did not show up. I am more than glad to shovel for anyone who needs assistance, but the least they can do is ask for it--or somehow communiate to others that they need help. I do not think it is righteously indignant to ask for someone to take responsibility, nor do I really want to know what goes on behind their closed doors, as that is their business. I do care what goes on in front of their house. While I admire your compassionate spirit (and I know you actually do things like this a lot), I think the ethics of snow shovelling dictate that the homeowner has a primary duty to shovel snow, while good samaritans do not have an obligation to knock on doors to find out why a sidewalk is not shovelled--it is nice if there are nice people like you walking around offering to shovel, but that is not a duty for those who trod the pavement. The duty lies with the homeowner to somehow deal with their snow removal. I think I read about this in Philosophy 210 in Kant's Prologue to an Ethics of Snow Removal, or perhaps in Garrett Hardin's Snowplow Ethics (sorry, but all this talk about duty and obligations is taking me back to those Ethics courses). | ||
| Peter Citizen Username: Peter Post Number: 198 Registered: 7-2004 |
Good thing about dog poop, after it thaws, it doesn't stink anymore. | ||
| Purplebug Citizen Username: Purplebug Post Number: 35 Registered: 10-2005 |
Actually it depends on the consistency (sp?) of the poop. If your foot is placed just right, you could slip and fall from it. Don't ask me how I know this. I know that sometimes, either through the use of the snow blower, or running out of ice melt and not getting anymore, that some snow is left behind to give some sort of traction. I fell yesterday morning. A path was shovelled, but ice was still there, guess the ice melt wasn't working because temps were so low. | ||
| LilLB Citizen Username: Lillb Post Number: 1278 Registered: 10-2002  |
If you own home, you must shovel your sidewalk. Ignorance is not bliss - if you didn't know you were responsible for it, that doesn't excuse you from your responsibility. Ond is right - it's not righteous indignation to be able to walk on the sidewalks....TWO DAYS after a snowstorm. What about the person ES&L noticed was able to clear a path for themselves to the car, but not the sidewalk for others -- that's just beyond wrong. I think the reason most people don't knock on a neighbor's door to see if everything is "OK" when they don't shovel their sidewalk is partly because it's confrontational - you probably don't know these neighbors that well in the first place and you'd basically be ringing your neighbor's door to tell them they're slacking off -- or at least you're afraid that's how it's going to come across. So, people give their neighbors the benefit of the doubt and think that maybe they'll just come out a little later and take care of it and then they never do and then people start leaving their dog poop all over the place as a result…  Las - I think your reasoning comes from a good place -- you want to give people the benefit of the doubt and don't want to be the one to judge them too harshly, but making excuses for someone else's neglect doesn't make us more caring people. It's pretty unrealistic to canvas the neighborhood with your shovel ringing people's doorbells to ask them if they're just slackers, or do they have a physical ailment or perhaps ask them about their ability or lack thereof to pay other people to shovel for them. I can just see how clearly I’d fumble that transaction… “Ding Dong…Oh Hi, I’m your neighbor from a few blocks down. Hey, listen, I was just noticing that you didn’t clear your sidewalk, yet I see you’re in good physical condition; after all you were able to get up and answer the door. This leads me to believe that you’re just a selfish bastard or perhaps you’re strapped for cash – which is it?”  I think it goes without saying that if you know of a person who needs help, you help them. If you have a snowblower and it snows 21 inches...plow a few neighbors' walks too. But, 98% of the people out there who don’t shovel are able to shovel or make arrangements to have someone else do it -- they just choose not to. I don't think that we're debating about the 2% who found themselves TRULY unable to clear it out - we're not heartless, just making the point that people have this responsibility as a homeowner whether they like it or not... | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 2356 Registered: 9-2003  |
This is really dumb, and certainly my dog is too fat from the absence of walking, but why wouldn't one simply let the doggie out in the backyard -- for those who have a backyard. I dug a little "poop path" and zone for ours, a bit far to the back. That's where she goes while no one is able to walk her. Our dog will poop in her own backyard, albeit one particular area far from the house. | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 1913 Registered: 6-2002  |
I still see no reason why somebody can't knock on the neighbor's door and ask what gives. It's simply fear of confrontation. You can gripe, but with griping comes responsibility. Remember, I just went through this not long ago - I injured my back just before the last ice storm and couldn't chip the ice away. This time, my back is fine, and hubby cleared the snow anyway with the snowblower (for reasons I'd rather not discuss here, ice-chipping isn't something he can do, but snowblowing is fine - and no, I'm not going to discuss the specifics of this as it pertains to him and I need to protect his privacy). But I am VERY aware of how difficult it is to find a service to shovel for you unless you have set this up for the whole season - and even then, it's darn near impossible to find somebody to do it. So if you have a short-term issue (injury, family emergency, whatever) you're generally SOL. Asking neighbors for help is incredibly difficult for many people, including me. Unless you have family who live locally or very close friends, it can put you in a very bad spot. Think about it - how often have you had a seemingly able-bodied neighbor you barely know call you and say "Hey Joe, I hurt my back and can't shovel my walk - can you do mine, too?" You'd probably do it (I hope) but wouldn't you be surprised? It just isn't something that people seem to do, unless they are very close with their neighbors. And many of us, though generally friendly people, simply don't have the time to get to know our neighbors to that extent. I don't even know most of my neighbors' names, first or last. I now have a guarantee from several MOLers to clean my paths in case a similar situation happens to me again (hopefully, it won't). But not everybody has pals like y'all. I am NOT saying that chronic non-shovelers get a free pass - just that each of us should bear in mind that there are many reasons why snow might not have been cleared on a given occasion. Try to be compassionate, and put yourself in the other person's shoes. As to the cut-outs - this drives me crazy, too, but a few here who have corner lots have expressed their frustration that they can't clear because the snowplows leave huge piles at the cut-outs. It doesn't seem as if there's an easy solution to that problem. | ||
| MBJ Citizen Username: Mbj Post Number: 130 Registered: 10-2005 |
It wouldn't be MOL if people weren't moaning and groaning about something. LAS...you go girl! | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12508 Registered: 1-2003 |
CLK, you consider it easy to ask why someone hasn't shoveled but hard to ask for shoveling help? I think they would be of equal difficulty. And if it makes you feel any better at all, if my back were injured, I'd be calling my neighbors pretty quickly and not feeling guilty about it, because I'd like them to do the same if they're injured. | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 2357 Registered: 9-2003 |
Not every street is like yours, Tom. I kinda get what CLK is saying. Mine is not, for example. A number of people out with blowers, no one offered beyond their immediate neighbors who they already are best buds with. I think we just need to allow that not everyone lives on one of Maplewood's Mayberry-style streets. I know 3 of my neighbors well enough to ask, in a pinch. One was away and had a service doing it. The other guy is often away and blows it off. The third would do it if needed. But, some are not so lucky, not doing block parties, barbecues and chatting. So, there is a dimension that isn't just reluctance to ask, but how well the street knows each other. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12510 Registered: 1-2003 |
I think I understand what you're saying, Cynicalgirl, but you already know three people well enough to ask. That's probably enough, most of the time. I didn't say I could ask anyone and everyone on my block. Some neighbors give me a chill when I think about them, but that's the way it goes. | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 1914 Registered: 6-2002 |
I guess my point is less about knocking on their doors and offering help (or being the busybody spy), and more about the reaction to the situation. On the one hand you have the positive, nonjudgemental stance of "huh, I wonder what's up with them" rather than the negative "those a-holes! how dare they! Don't they know that's against the law!" And it is true that all of this takes on a very different tone depending on your street. If you know your neighbors really well, chances are that you are NOT thinking that they're cheap lazy so-and-sos for not clearing their paths (unless you have other knowledge suggesting that ... in which case, judge away!). If you don't know your neighbors well, perhaps it's easier to take that position, and perhaps it's harder for them to ask. | ||
| LilLB Citizen Username: Lillb Post Number: 1279 Registered: 10-2002 |
It is funny how different personalities play into this discussion. Thinking about it made me realize that I would rather jam sharp needles underneath my fingernails than ask a neighbor for help, especially to ask them to do back-breaking work for me. However, I would be more than willing to help a neighbor who asked for my help with the same task and would be glad that I was able to help them. I'm sure this is some textbook example of some psychological problem, but I've gone this far in life....I guess I'm stuck with this personality "trait." | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12511 Registered: 1-2003 |
You're not stuck. I was the same way until I became a divorced custodial parent. It became necessary to learn new skills. It's a skill, not a trait. | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3030 Registered: 9-2001 |
MBJ--that just encourages moaning and groaning about moaning and groaning!  Besides, this is not simply moaning and groaning--to me, it is a quality of life issue on a par with potholes and unplowed streets and people parking their car in front of your driveway. I would not expect you to accuse me of moaning and groaning about someone blocking my driveway with their car. In fact, not shovelling is supposedly a civic offense that leads to a fine, if it were ever enforced, and so clearly it is more important to our society than simply moaning and groaning. Cyn: I don't have access to the backyard, and my dog (and I) need to take some long walks each day to stay in even a reasonable facsimile of shape. I just don't think it is fair for people to force me to make an unreasonable accomodation (restrict my walk, or walk in a very busy street, or walk knee-deep in snow) when it is their responsibility to do their duty or make sure it gets done somehow. CLK: The problem is that one cannot know why someone did not shovel, and so it is hard to show compassion, because your compassion might be for someone who does not care, or who went on vacation and did not think to make arrangements in case it snowed. And there are tons of lawn-care companies that will gladly do a driveway and sidewalk for anyone who is incapacitated and has no friends to ask for help or is out of town. I just don't buy it--there are way, way too many unshovelled sidewalks, and I think it is more than fair to assume that the vast majority are because of neglect, not invalidity and lack of friendly neighbors. And what about people who are not able, like me, to easily tromp through the snow, or wander into the street? What about people with little kids, or with walkers or canes? What about someone who is elderly, able bodied, but not that steady on her feet? Where is the compassion for them? Sorry, I hear you all on compassion for someone who literally cannot physically shovel, and I am the first to stop to help someone in need, but I think your good hearts are making excuses for what by and large are basically selfish and negligent people. | ||
| CLK Supporter Username: Clkelley Post Number: 1915 Registered: 6-2002 |
Eats, as to the lawn care companies - false, false, false. I've heard that over & over, but the first yeaar I was in Maplewood and at home with a tiny infant, I couldn't get any of the lawn care companies to even return my calls - even though I seem to recall being in tears when I left a few messages. I am reasonably sure that I called every lawn care company in the yellow pages. Hadn't discovered MOL yet at that point. You're right, you CAN'T know why somebody didn't shovel. I think that's my point. Given a lack of information, I choose to assume that my fellow humans are essentially decent. Obviously, this leads me to make mistakes sometimes, but I'd rather err on the forgiving side. | ||
| las Citizen Username: Las Post Number: 959 Registered: 10-2003 |
Maybe instead of calling your neighbors selfish and negligent, ESL, you might try inquiring of the Township what their efforts are to ensure homeowners know they have a responsibility to keep their sidewalks clear. Or ask a realtor if they give a memo to new home buyers. Not everyone reads MOL. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 12512 Registered: 1-2003 |
I agree with erring on the forgiving side, but tell me, where might the non-shovelers have moved from where they would be unaware of this obligation? It's taking an increasing amount of effort to believe the ignorance. | ||
| Ond Citizen Username: Ond Post Number: 68 Registered: 3-2004 |
So MBJ, did you clear your walk this time, or are you content to have people just walk in the street (as you suggested following the last snow) past your house for the next couple of weeks? | ||
| LilLB Citizen Username: Lillb Post Number: 1281 Registered: 10-2002 |
I highly doubt most people who know they have to shovel learned it from MOL. I know I didn't - that's what the township is for. Why is it everyone else's responsibility to find out from the town how they're communicating about shoveling? Isn't it the responsibility of the person who didn't do the shoveling to find out what they're responsible for as homeowners? Do you mean to tell me that you think that people who don't shovel just looked around at everyone else who shoveled and thought they were just doing it out of the kindness of their hearts? Sorry...I'm just not buyin' it. | ||
| las Citizen Username: Las Post Number: 960 Registered: 10-2003 |
HA! Lil - that's exactly what I thought! (really!) | ||
| MBJ Citizen Username: Mbj Post Number: 131 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hi OND...how's your day going? | ||
| LilLB Citizen Username: Lillb Post Number: 1282 Registered: 10-2002 |
Doh! Sorry las! You clearly see the good in people if you thought that of your neighbors! | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3031 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ditto what Tom said, and besides, how do you know that I DON'T call the Town or speak with council members or knock on people's doors and speak with them or know that they are, in fact, able bodied and capable of shovelling having seen them do it before? Jeesh, people don't shovel and I catch crap. | ||
| las Citizen Username: Las Post Number: 961 Registered: 10-2003 |
Lil, you give me waaay too much rosey credit! I just think some people don't care enough about shovelling to make an effort do it or inquire about it. It's just not part of what they see in their world. But I don't believe most people are being intentionally rude about it. | ||
| Pippi Supporter Username: Pippi Post Number: 1742 Registered: 8-2003  |
I am quite cynical and believe the worst of my fellow man. I do believe most people who haven't shovelled have no intention of doing so at this point. If they had peeked at the weather forecast yesterday, they might have been banking on the warmish weather and sunny days to melt it. Why go through all the trouble, right?? | ||
| las Citizen Username: Las Post Number: 962 Registered: 10-2003 |
Eats, I didn't assume you did or did not knock on doors. Likely if you did, based on what I see as your posting style, you'd have cited that fact at the beginning with a statistical analysis of the excuses tallied (instead of a blanket statement about the perceived able-bodied non-shovellers), maybe posted a link to a previous discussion on the topic, as well as a link to the cyber-journal wherein your study published. But what do I know? I just assume shovelling isn't as important in some peoples' lives. | ||
| chiquita Citizen Username: Chiquita Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2001 |
Okay, let me get this straight--because some people didn't shovel, I now have to climb over and around icy mounds of snow AND watch out for ESL's revenge dog poop? How is that fair? The owners of the unshoveled property are not the only ones walking in front of their homes! Please curb your dog! And as for the dog poop making only your shoes smelly--tell that to my sister, who as a child didn't notice she had stepped in some and tracked it all over my mom's wall-to-wall carpeting...she couldn't get the smell out for days!! | ||
| Purplebug Citizen Username: Purplebug Post Number: 36 Registered: 10-2005 |
When I first moved here I didn't know that it was REQUIRED that you shovelled the snow. I moved from a town where it was quite common to walk in the street or in the snow. However, I am a pessimist at heart and thought that since we live in such a sue happy society that someone might take me to court and take my house from me. |
