| Author |
Message |
    
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 4637
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 2:42 pm: | 
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sherlock- you called me a non-reader, an ilke, a teacher-basher, and someone who makes decisions before I read.
I'll let the readers of MOL decide. |
Jim McLaughlin
Citizen
Username: Jmclaugh
Post Number: 67
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 2:42 pm: |
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Hoops,
Filler?
For years I have heard teachers across the district say that they simply do not have enough time to cover everything in the curriculum over the course of the year. Do you honestly believe that is okay to devote one third of a math class to non-curricular conversation? |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 4638
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 2:43 pm: |
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tjohn-  |
Sherlock
Citizen
Username: Sherlock
Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 2:43 pm: |
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You know, just because you imply gutter language as opposed to outright using it doesn't make it anymore socially acceptable. Maybe your free use of it in this format is indicative of your use of it in the real world and maybe that is why discourse in america has so degenerated over the last 10 years. |
Sherlock
Citizen
Username: Sherlock
Post Number: 25
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 2:45 pm: |
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Guess what the war ended in the 70's, do you know your history? |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 4639
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 2:45 pm: |
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 I guess we're on to a new topic. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4188
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 2:48 pm: |
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I know that the late 70's would suggest 1975 or 1976 onwards. I know that major U.S. military operations in Vietnam ended in 1972. I know that the U.S. Embassy was evacuated in 1975 when South Vietnam fell to the North.
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wendy
Supporter
Username: Wendy
Post Number: 2267
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 2:49 pm: |
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I can't presume to speak about discourse in America but discourse on this thread in particular on MOL (perhaps a microcosm of America) has degenerated because people don't hear what others are saying, don't read what others are saying and have hidden agendas. Perhaps you can volunteer to be the poster child for what's wrong in America or what's wrong on this thread. |
breal
Citizen
Username: Breal
Post Number: 815
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 2:54 pm: |
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Since you bring it up, I'll tell you I thought about the Vietnam War in junior high and in high school and in college. But never, not once, during math class. My math teachers were good at math. They did not presume to lecture me about Vietnam. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4189
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 2:54 pm: |
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Many years ago, when academia began its destructive descent into politics, educational standards began to slip and we ended up with this:
http://www.bluesforpeace.com/lyrics/what-wonderful-world.htm |
Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1510
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 2:54 pm: |
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breal,
There are MORE issues that are affecting students at CHS than labor negotiations.
Lack of Leadership
Communication
Leveling
Security
Divisive comments made by our Principal
the ID program
the physical conditions at CHS
Again, do you have a child attending CHS now?
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Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1511
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 3:00 pm: |
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Dear Mr. Hoops,
You seem to be short on commas, so I will give you one
Wordsmith,
I see you are SHORT in contribution to this discussion. Did Hoops actually touch a sensitive spot with you? Pretty cheap shot to have nothing short in criticizing another's grammatical errors than avoiding the REAL issues here.
Yours truly,
Phenix |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 4640
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 3:11 pm: |
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Phenixrising- I've only ever seen Wordsmith respond to grammatical errors. Probably just to see if he/she can get a rise out of posters. I think he has succeeded.
Do you think Sherlock has any kids at CHS? |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1049
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 3:13 pm: |
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JM - not only do I think it is appropriate to use 1/3 of a period to discuss non course specific issues in class time, (notice comma placed where it should be Ms. Wordsmith), but I also think it would be appropriate to use a full period.
There are snow days and there are days your children might be absent and there are days that teachers are absent and none of these things prevent your child from getting the full course content of the subject.
I certainly dont think teachers are taking full periods or even 1/3 of the class time to discuss these things every day.
Phenix -  |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4190
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 3:19 pm: |
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Hoops,
It depends on the event. If teachers took class time on 9/12/2001 to moderate a discussion of the terrorist attacks the day before, I can understand it. Most of us were a bit rattled at that time.
OTOH, if a teacher takes class time to discuss our ongoing involvement in Iraq, I object, unless the subject of Iraq is relevant to the course.
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1050
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 3:25 pm: |
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I understand your objection but frankly the discussion within the classroom environment is up to the participants.
Our kids are very intelligent and inquisitive. They ask valid questions about their environment and about their social condition. Things that are important to tjohn may not seem important to them. Teachers have to respond to the students or they will be tuned out. The good teachers have open communications. |
Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1512
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 3:27 pm: |
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Do you think Sherlock has any kids at CHS?
ffof,
Ask Sherlock.
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tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4191
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 3:30 pm: |
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It is a matter of degree. I expect that most classroom time will be on topic and not on current events. Some teachers teach courses that lend themselves to the incorporation of current events. Many do not.
When I was in high school, I don't recall teachers spending much time on anything but the subject material. In truth, I imagine it hasn't changed too much since I was in high school. |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 4642
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 3:39 pm: |
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Except for one tenured teacher at CHS who is supposed to be a US History I teacher, but he teaches current events and white man as oppressor instead. |
Sherlock
Citizen
Username: Sherlock
Post Number: 26
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 4:04 pm: |
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to the question does sherlock have kids at the high school. I had three children attend CHS, the last finished last year.
I have always spoken with my children about what was going on. they are white and guess what, they found everthing about pollack's running of the building to be oppressive.
I have always encouraged them to act where they see injustice.
I thinking learning to see injustice and to fight against it are probably two of the most important things you can learn in your home, school, place of worship, etc. I don't think you can learn it too much.
By the by I went to high school from '73-'77. And, Ironically we most spoke about the war, and the draft, in Math class. Maybe there is something about Math that incites people. |
breal
Citizen
Username: Breal
Post Number: 816
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 4:05 pm: |
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"I understand your objection but frankly the discussion within the classroom environment is up to the participants."
No it isn't. The kids can't leave. They have to sit there and listen to their math teacher blather on about whatever his grievance of the day is. It's not "free speech" when the listeners can't leave. It's coercive. It's a free speaker who owns a slave-audience. It's an abuse.
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Sherlock
Citizen
Username: Sherlock
Post Number: 28
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 4:16 pm: |
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Is it a math teacher lecturing kids, or is it a dialogue. and if a dialogue how many students are participating and how many is enough to satisfy you. If it is the majority is that enough, does it have unanimous? If some want to participate in that kind of dialogue and some do not what is the answer. I feel your answer is that it would never be ok. Thank god you are not a "math teacher". |
Southorangemom
Citizen
Username: Southorangemom
Post Number: 297
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 4:19 pm: |
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Silly me!
I was at work and never got to see how many people were ranting and raving on this thread.
For the record, I do have a child at CHS.
I also had a child graduate from CHS pre-Pollack.
So I do know the difference in what is happening now.
I am upset and angry that the heart and soul of a fine school is being torn to shreds by an administrator who cannot get along with her staff. She is dishonest, talks condescendingly to students and parents and manipulates the facts to suit her purpose. The people on the BOE who voted to give her tenure should be ashamed of themselves. It is why Betheil & Frazer must go.
SouthOrangeMom |
Gordon Agress
Citizen
Username: Odd
Post Number: 414
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 4:40 pm: |
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"I feel your answer is that it would never be ok."
Well, I can't speak for breal, but I'll gladly confirm that my answer is that it would NEVER be ok. Not in math, English, science, history, music, whatever. Not only that, but if I find that this sort of thing is a widespread habit among CHS teachers I won't send my children there.
I send my children to school to learn to think for themselves, not adopt whatever conclusions their teachers may have arrived at. Intelligent thought requires the ability to write clearly, read without imposing your own prejudices, and hold two conflicting thoughts in mind at the same time. It requires a little method and an attitude of skepticism. From what I can see, kids coming out of our "best" colleges, never mind our high schools, can only do all this irregularly.
So I'd say some focus on the priorities is in order, and I prefer our schools first prepare our kids with the components that any thinker is going to need, and have them practice on less controversial material, before they spend a lot of time yakking about the war, the national economy or the principal.
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tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4192
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 4:48 pm: |
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Gordon,
Discipline is no fun. You probably also say that the way to lose weight is to eat properly and exercise regularly. Me, I am 21st Century kind of a American. I figure that if there is something difficult to do, then there must be a shortcut somewhere. Or we can at least pretend there is a shortcut. |
breal
Citizen
Username: Breal
Post Number: 817
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 4:51 pm: |
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Not to worry, Sherlock. A math teacher is something I will never be. I'm not an expert in math. I respect math teachers' authority on matters having to do with math because that's their area of expertise.
I have no reason to believe they are experts in any other area. A person can be good at math, and a boob in every other realm. A boob who likes to hear himself talk.
Which is why I think math teachers should stick with teaching math. |
Sherlock
Citizen
Username: Sherlock
Post Number: 29
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 5:37 pm: |
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and now we know boobs can type and post on mol too.
g.agress, what is never ok is that a teacher have a dialogue with your child about matters that concern your child on which your child wants to dialogue?
good luck finding that school |
breal
Citizen
Username: Breal
Post Number: 819
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 5:45 pm: |
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But you can leave, Sherlock. It's in your power to discontinue "the dialogue." The math teacher's students have to just sit there and listen to his non-math editorials. Even if they don't want to. Even if they wish he would talk about math. They have no power in that situation. He has all the power. |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 4644
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 5:53 pm: |
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wow, sherlock, way to make your case, more name calling.
How about "dialogue" after school or during lunch?
People complain about math scores and LA scores, maybe there's been too much dialoguing. Let's do a study. |
Onyx
Citizen
Username: Onyx
Post Number: 118
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:42 pm: |
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Wow, this has degenerated into a most ridiculous discourse, considering the topic of the thread, but at the same time very entertaining. First, as a teacher I know that it takes all the time in a period to teach the math curriculum which keeps growing and growing. It was stated that this "math teacher" is good. That tells me that 98% of the time he/she is on topic. Now I am sure this teacher doesn't start the discussion with a tirade on Pollack or he/she would not still be teaching. There may be tenure but there is also dismissal for unprofessional conduct. A child asks an opinion about whether Ms. Pollack is leaving and receives one. I, personally, would be evasive but I deal with elementary school children and cannot say what I would say at the high school level. Regardless, this has all been blown way out of proportion.
Back to the point Sandi and Paul were trying to make - The students have spelled out perceived grievances and organized a sit out. This was their own decision. Some of the teachers, who also have grievances that are different (time and money) supported the students. Others did not and gave them cuts and zeros. Lastly, many of the people who feel this district is falling apart want to elect a new board of education. Some of the posters on MOL have not helped their incumbent candidates by taking forever to see the student issues and to back off from supporting Ms. Pollack. The evidence is in the previous threads, a few of which are erased such as the post by a school board member's daughter which happened right before the education thread went down! It was late at night (for those who didn't see it - she spelled out what the students' grievances were and how she felt that some of the teachers were too harsh in punishing her for participating in the "sit out." I would love to have been a fly on the wall in that former board member's house (who reads MOL) if he read that post. It is possible he condoned it but right before the fall of the education thread? I wonder ... |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 9116
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 12:06 am: |
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Sherlock suspended for personal attack. |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1124
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 4:34 am: |
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It's a good thing you kicked that barbarian out, Dave. The only thing worse than Sherlock's grammar was Sherlock's opinion.
"Me fail English? That's unpossible." |
Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1513
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 7:57 am: |
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I see breal & wendy continues to avoid my question.
Do you BOTH have kids attending CHS? |
Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1514
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 8:24 am: |
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I send my children to school to learn to think for themselves, not adopt whatever conclusions their teachers may have arrived at. Intelligent thought requires the ability to write clearly, read without imposing your own prejudices, and hold two conflicting thoughts in mind at the same time.
Gordon,
I believe you said you do not have kids attending CHS? I have a senior who attended for 4 years and I can assure you, his time for learning was not taken-up by teachers imposing their greivances to the classroom. Most of his info on the issues of CHS are from the students. Students give these info's to the parents, the parents are NOT happy. Parent's are upset and want answers. Again some of these greivances are posted in my above post.
Here they are again:
Lack of Leadership
Communication
Leveling
Security
Divisive comments made by our Principal
the ID program
the physical conditions at CHS
My senior attended the assembly yesterday and viewed the documentary films made by the students. All were tastefully well done. The problem documentary about the "Black Panthers" which Pollack *thought* would invoke violence? It was mainly an historical account which was later discussed in my senior's history class. What a SHAME that our Principal would just ASSUME a film would invoke violence because of an historical account on the "Black Panthers" of the 60's and 70's. What message is that sending to our students? Especially the AA students. You are EXPECTING some outbreak? Kids Black and White viewed the documentary. Happy to say, NO VIOLENT outbreaks!
Funny, same thing happened when the students had their PEACEFUL walkout. There were MOL posters here waiting and anticipating for an "INCIDENT" to happen. Happy to say, NO INCIDENT and the kids conducted themselves peacefully.
Give our kids some kind of credit.
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breal
Citizen
Username: Breal
Post Number: 820
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 10:08 am: |
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Onyx, you're right. If a person is by all accounts is a good teacher in a subject, it follows that the person MUST be devoting most of the class time to the subject. And that's the main thing. I just hope that any teacher who is gifted with charisma will be careful with it.
And Phenixrising you are right to try to refocus the discussion. I was one of the posters who worried that an all-day sit out might be an incident waiting to happen. I was wrong about that, and I will try not to underestimate the students again.
From Sherlock's description, the MLK assembly was another proud moment for the students and educators--and parent volunteers, like Sherlock--who put the thing together. I like the fact that there were follow up discussions in history class. I like it that the assembly was true to the spirit of MLK, from Sherlock's description.
And I hope nobody got banned on my account. Maybe there could be a reconsideration of that? |
Kiba
Citizen
Username: Radical_kiba
Post Number: 79
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 11:35 am: |
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ffof-
It was not in the classroom that a teacher told me this. It's not despicable. It was after school and we were just talking. What next, will you bash the teacher for having an innapropriate relationship with a student because they were talking to them? Honestly Teachers and students are allowed to have a thoughtful conversation.
I fully support the teachers. They don't even have a contract. Maybe if you actually were a student in the school you'd see the view differently. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 5945
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 11:42 am: |
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I don't see why CHS couldn't show a historical documentary about the black panthers as long as it was honest - we discussed the mafia, Hitler and Charles Manson at our assemblies - for the record - I do not have a student at CHS, I graduated from CHS. |
Parkbench87
Citizen
Username: Parkbench87
Post Number: 3958
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 11:55 am: |
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Kiba,
It's fine that you support the teachers and want them to have the best possible contract. However you need to understand that contract negotiations are a strategic game where both sides try to get the best possible deal. The teachers don't have a contract yet because both sides are not yet willing to budge. I want the teachers to get a fair deal but I also know that some of the people complaining about the teachers not having a fair contract will also be upset if certain programs are cut. There is limited money to go around.
It's obvious that there are major problems with relationships in the school between the Principal and Staff and Students. However what some of us are trying to get across is that under no circumstances should a teacher discusss with a student their relationship with or opinion of their superior. It's the same in the corporate world. I've had some lousy bosses who made it quite difficult for me to perform my job. However under no circumstances did I express my feelings to the people who reported to me. It was my problem to deal with. Teachers should folow the same code of conduct.
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breal
Citizen
Username: Breal
Post Number: 821
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 11:57 am: |
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I don't think ffof was bashing, Kiba, and you have to admit, your account has moved around some. At first you said it was several teachers who were speculating about whether the principal would resign. I'm glad class time was used for such discussions or for discussions about the teachers' contract renegotiations. |
breal
Citizen
Username: Breal
Post Number: 822
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 11:59 am: |
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Oops. Meant to say I was glad class time was NOT used to discuss whether the principal would resign/contract renegotiations. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 5948
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 12:10 pm: |
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Can someone post what specific problems some of the teachers have with the principal?
Not that I think anyone would actually answer this question in a non-confusing way, if it even gets answered. |
Gordon Agress
Citizen
Username: Odd
Post Number: 419
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 12:54 pm: |
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Phenix, my post was a reply to someone who said that years ago they spent a lot of time in math class talking about the Viet Nam war, and didn't seem to understand why anyone would have a problem with that.
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Concerned07040
Citizen
Username: Concerned07040
Post Number: 106
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 5:16 pm: |
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Dear Mem,
Problems with the principal?
Let me "count the ways."
She has not built positive relationships with staff.
She has no clearly articulated vision of what the school should be, or the direction in which it should move.
She has a horrible temper and loses it frequently, yelling at everyone from administrators to secretaries and even parents.
She will criticize staff in front of students when it is totally inappropriate [example: Student Council meetings]leaving both feeling diminished.
She talks to students in a very demeaning way [watch some of her appearances on CCN].
She tells untruths.
Yes, I know there are those who will disagree with me on all or some of the above.
Concerned07040 |
Onyx
Citizen
Username: Onyx
Post Number: 121
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 5:51 pm: |
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Park Bench, I am not sure whether I agree with you or not on your response to Kiba. I have it easy at the elementary school level. Students are not as astute and do not follow the issues. I would bet in high school the students know more about negotiations than the people here on line and ask some pretty specific questions of the teachers. It is probably a very difficult position to be in as you want the students to keep abreast of current issues and form their own opinions, yet the teacher presenting the information will definitely have a bias. I have not formed an opinion but I thought that it was an interesting discussion you were having with Kiba. One I will have to think about. I am also glad to see so many young people showing an interest and participating in Maplewood Online. They are helping to educate us with certain issues and likewise. |
Fruitcake
Citizen
Username: Fruitcake
Post Number: 276
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 7:04 pm: |
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Based on my limited personal interaction with the principal, I would say Concerned's list is fairly accurate. It's a very unfortunate situation, to say the least. One thing I don’t know first-hand is whether she has made any allies among the faculty. She certainly has enemies there, but I don’t suppose that’s a surprise for any principal.
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Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 481
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 7:10 pm: |
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Where is that guy that called me a poser after saying I act "white" sometimes and "black" other times. I'd like to know what I'm posing as...additionally I'd like to know what it takes to act white or black. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 5957
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 7:45 pm: |
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Concerned,
Thanks for the response and the info. If accurate, no way should this type of character be running a kindergarten, much less CHS with all the current issues. It sounds like she's reached her limit. Understandable though, I wouldn't want that job.
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Onyx
Citizen
Username: Onyx
Post Number: 122
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 10:07 pm: |
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Glock, not everything that was on the original education threads is still here. Some of the material that was nasty or named specific people has vanished. When people make comments like that, it just reflects on them. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 484
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 10:38 pm: |
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Yeah...I was just wondering if I could draw the culprit out again...mostly because I'd really like to know what they meant. |
John James Leuchs Jr
Citizen
Username: Clairvoyant
Post Number: 78
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 7:07 am: |
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Glock, go back to where you originally posted. She came out and is ready to do battle!  |
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page