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Joanne G
Citizen
Username: Joanne
Post Number: 41
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 11:08 am: | 
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Hello everyone - and happy holy days! I'm pleased to report that Tom's supplied recipe for 7-fruit haroset worked easily and went down a treat - the seder party of 11 all went back for seconds and thirds and even ignored the traditional grated apple version. So again, Tom - thanks!!!
Also discussed and researched the vexed issue of the errant thickening agent in the problematic Matza Charlotte. Aussie gourmet opinion seems to have reached consensus on why on earth would anyone in their right mind choose to thicken a sweet lemon flavoured sauce with potato starch???? If arrowroot isn't available or deemed kosher enough (although as a tuber it should be OK), then go fully tradiitional and use egg yolk!!!!!!! as in 'I need to thicken some soup - oy, where's my fresh egg yolk?' or 'ai, i need to thicken my greek avgolimeno (lemon flavoured) sauce - where's my egg yolk?' or even 'mama mia, i need to thicken my italian lemon sauce for the roasted lamb shanks with rosemary, where's my egg yolk?'. A few even suggested why bother with lemon sauce when Tom's haroset would do just as well?
LL, everyone seems to think there's nothing wrong with your recipe (apart from perhaps not using corn starch), and Barry - apart from being his usual self - is well and says Hi. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13640
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 12:43 pm: |
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Well, I must say, the salmon might have been been the best thing there that night. I was planning to ask for another portion, but I was distracted by the conversation, and someone whisked my plate away. It's fine, though, because I really did have enough. Thank you very much for your spontaneous hospitality. I had a really nice time meeting your family.
The truth about Matzoh Charlotte? I asked about it, but there was none to be had. There was a dessert that had matzoh in it which was good. I guess the matzoh was embedded therein to make it Passoverish, and luckily, there was little enough of it that I couldn't taste it.
So LibraryLady told the story of Matzoh Charlotte by bringing her laptop to the table and reading the thread. The haggadahs sat on the table, thoroughly unused. LibraryLady's cousin grew painfully bored of MOL's local humor and requested that we read from the hagaddah instead.
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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7239
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 12:47 pm: |
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I went back and re-read the Matzoh Charlotte recipe because I couldn't remember.
It frightened me.
Our seder hosts had the most delish macaroon cake with apricot filling. |
Soda
Supporter
Username: Soda
Post Number: 3735
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 2:15 pm: |
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Our hostess at last night's seder (Bergen County) doesn't keep Kosher, but she's got her hubby (normally a very smart and funny guy) absolutely whipped when it comes to doing the entire seder "by the book", with a minimum of English, a maximum of Hebrew, and "PLEASE! NO SIDE CONVERSATIONS OR CLOWNING AROUND" until it's time to eat...
There were 27 adults and 2 kids at the table, so (since not everybody was a fluent reader of Hebrew) the bulk of the reading (even the four questions!)was done by the few (not me) who studied in Hebrew School... A verrrrry long (and semi-uncomfortable) period was finally ended by the actual meal, which was (let's be honest) no great shakes compared to the semi-divine repast we ususally enjoy at LibraryLady's house. Anyhow, by the end of the evening, the guests (our hostess' friends and relatives alike) were referring to her as "the Seder Nazi".
Oh, and she didn't want to make Matzoh Charlotte. "It can't be Kosher", she said. So it all went according to plan... Next year we're back, LL!
-s.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13644
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 2:19 pm: |
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Soda, you and I almost met each other. Too bad.
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LibraryLady..
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3290
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 5:06 pm: |
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Now THAT would have been interesting!!!  |
Soda
Supporter
Username: Soda
Post Number: 3736
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 5:51 pm: |
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Brothers from another mother... |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1499
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 6:38 pm: |
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Lizziecat, you are operating under the significant assumption that women are always in charge of kashrut.
At our house, my husband is in charge of kashering and cooking, and does significantly more of the work of keeping things kosher than I do, so please take your blanket assumptions elsewhere.
Just because you don't "do religion" doesn't mean that you have to spread stereotypical assumptions about those of us who do. What you say may be true of some times and some religious communities, but we don't all feel the need to "throw out the baby with the bathwater" where religion is concerned.
Some of us choose to be involved in organized religion, and to be in dialog (and sometimes struggle) with the ways in which it has been used to oppress women, gays, other religions, etc. etc. over the years, while maintaining what is meaningful and strong about religion. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7243
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 7:12 pm: |
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Not what I would have expected from you, Lizzie. I don't do religion either. But, I enjoy culture and tradition. The great thing about Passover is that it speaks to many, many people who have suffered a history of oppression. In fact, we use a terrific haggadah that addresses slavery and inequality in many, many forms. The exodus of the Jews is symbolic of freedom for all who have suffered.
We have a lot of fun and irreverence (we sometimes refer to it as the "we're going to hell" seder) but everyone who participates talks about history, discrimination and current events. You'd probably like it, actually. |
Monster©
Supporter
Username: Monster
Post Number: 2795
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 7:21 pm: |
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I'm sure glad I can eat whatever I want, whenever I want,
Eat, drink, and be merry.... |
Lizziecat
Citizen
Username: Lizziecat
Post Number: 1161
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:26 am: |
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Susan:
I do not make blanket assumptions. I think that organized religion is a vehicle designed to oppress women. That is my opinion. You wouldn't be so outraged if there weren't a grain of truth in it.
Greenetree:
I'm glad you enjoy your seders so much. I personally would prefer root canal.
I'm done. Religion is obviously a supersensitive subject. I should never have mentioned it. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7246
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 7:02 am: |
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I think that religion is only super-sensitive when someone, unprovoked, belittles those who choose to practice. I am more of the "opiate of the masses" school. But, I've also come to realize that there are many people who have found a way to practice their faith and think for themselves at the same time. Some even manage to question the teachings of their religious institutions which they find untenable.
Dismissing everyone who practices some level of religion with the broad "blind follower bible beating red-neck" label (which is what you imply) is just not fair. It also shows a major lack of knowledge on the subject.
Had the topic of this thread been "Is religion oppressive" your comments would have been appropriate.
There was a time that, whenever a parent posted a question about dealing with a child-rearing issues, one infamous poster would throw in the old "you are so selfish to inflict your children on me, I have to pay for their education with my high taxes". It's kind of like that. |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 7259
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 7:17 am: |
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Lizziecat:
In the small villiage in Poland/Russia that my grandparents emigrated from the role of women in Judaism may well have been as you described. In grandma's day, even when she moved to the Lower East Side of Manhattan, the women ran the household, worked to support their men folk and were pretty much responsible for the child rearing. This enabled the men to spend their days studying Torah, the Talmud and other related tracts.
By the time I was born (I gather from your posts that we are approximately the same age), things had changed a lot. Today in a great many Jewish households men have paying jobs, help with the house work and the child rearing and women participate in the religious community outside as well as within the home. In our immediate community we have women who are Rabbis and Cantors, serve as president of their congregation, get called to the Torah for an aliyah, etc.
Yes, the world you describe still exists in some places but it is by no means the only Jewish life style available today. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3418
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 7:41 am: |
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Joan and Lizziecat:
In the small village in Russia that my great-grandparents emigrated from, my great-grandmother tended the mill while my great-grandfather prayed in the synogogue all day.
My grandmother, after coming to New York at age three with her mother and five siblings, (their father had come earlier and was living here when they arrived) grew up to be an English teacher in Manhattan, for her entire life, while raising two children and being a constant companion and wife to my grandfather.
My mother, as I have often noted on the board, was a social worker, first to vets in Europe in WW II, (after working with coal miners as a grad student) then on to social work with "foundlings" and families in Manhattan, then on to become a gerontologist, professor and columnist. Her parents sent her to the best colleges in preparation for her career. It was expected that marriage and family would be central to her life, but she should have her own life and identity as well, and she was taught that in the 1920's through the 1940's. Her family was apostate as far as Judaism was concerned, (hence the move to the Ethical Society later) but they did keep customs, joined together for Passover, kept the menu very Russian/Jewish if not kosher, and loved the language, the music and the culture of their past.
My great-grandparents were very religious, and I still have my grandfather's bar mitzvah talus (is that the word?) in a little green velvet bag marked Alex Ordmann, 1888, so I know how orthodox they were.
But they always accepted women as strong role-models and workers. Look at Golda Meir. I'll bet she did all the things expected of a wife and mother in religious rituals, but wow, was she a leader...or what???
Lizziecat, I think you're right about the role of ritual today in Judaism. I think it can be an excuse to keep women in the kitchen. What a difference a few generations make, no?
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3419
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 7:55 am: |
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my grandmother's the little girl in the front. This picture was taken in Moscow right before they all left for America. Notice how serious the girls look.
HAPPY PASSOVER, MAPLEWOOD |
Soda
Supporter
Username: Soda
Post Number: 3738
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:29 am: |
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The Golden Door indeed, Tulip. Happy Passover.
-s. |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1501
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:11 pm: |
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You're right Lizziecat, you shouldn't have mentioned it, at least not on this thread. Start a new thread if you want to trash religion.
Of course religions, as originally conceived, often reflected the patriarchy and of their times. On the other hand, many of the early attempts to create at least a few rights for women came from the religions that you are denigrating, which were ahead of their times, although backwards relative to our expectations.
Religion, like society, evolves, and has been used for both good and ill. Your outrage suggests a rather simplistic view of the entire subject, focusing exclusively on the bad rather than the good. You are welcome to your opinion, but expect to be called on it by those who you are criticizing, however implicitly. Don't insult us by lumping all adherants of organized religion in with the opinions and practices of the most conservative and patriarchial subgroups.
Good Pesach to everyone (from this prickly feminist Jew!) |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3422
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
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Oh, Soda, thank you, thank you for your lovely patching of my treasured photo!!! |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3423
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 1:12 pm: |
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susan: I hope I didn't insult you. It does seem a lot of work, though, unless the men pitch in, of course. |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 9223
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 2:00 pm: |
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J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2526
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 2:04 pm: |
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"I do not make blanket assumptions. I think that organized religion is a vehicle designed to oppress women."
Okely dokely. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3424
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 2:54 pm: |
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Wow, Dave!!  |
Lizziecat
Citizen
Username: Lizziecat
Post Number: 1162
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 5:02 pm: |
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You get insulted too easily, Susan. Perhaps you need to find a way to deal with that. I don't recall trashing religion. I stated an opinion. I didn't insult you. You decided to be insulted. Get a life
Now I am insulting you! See the difference?
As far as I am concerned this discussion is over. |
Wendy
Supporter
Username: Wendy
Post Number: 2354
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 7:08 pm: |
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No one asked you to take part in this discussion anyway. You gave us blanket assumptions while denying you were doing so. (good call Jennifer) There may be a door prize on your way out; it's probably kosher - so don't worry your little head about it. TTFN. |
susan1014
Supporter
Username: Susan1014
Post Number: 1503
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 9:19 pm: |
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Lizziecat, you have indeed moved to a more personal level of insult. I choose not to follow.
(Tulip, no insult taken. I wouldn't be operating within the rules of Passover Kashruth if it were not a whole family effort) |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11217
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 5:42 am: |
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Library Lady, I gotta ask where the name Charlotte came from in your, alleged by some delicious recipe. Queen Charlotte was the German born wife of King George III noted for her good works and singular lack of physical beauty. How does that translate into a passover dish? 
I hope you all enjoyed Passover. When all is said and done I think most religious holidays, no matter what the religion, are a chance to gather with family and friends in fellowship. I think the Jews do this better than most, although I think the last statement is going to be viewed as condescending by some. |
LibraryLady..
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3292
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 7:55 am: |
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I've copied below the reasons for other "Charlotte" dishes. Maybe they used the same reasoning when naming my (in)famouse Passover dessert.
Quote:A cake is which the mold is lined with sponge fingers (Ladyfingers) and custard replaces the apples. It is served cold with cream. Charlotte is a corruption of the Old English word charlyt meaning a "dish of custard." There is a lot of doubt surrounding the origins of the name "charlotte." Meat dishes that were known as charlets were popular in the 15th century.
It is said to have been invented by the French chef
Marie Antoine Careme (1784-1833), who named it in honor of his Russian employer Czar Alexander. Other historians say that this sweet dish took its name from Queen Charlotte (1744-1818), wife of George III.
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Joanne G
Citizen
Username: Joanne
Post Number: 44
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 9:05 am: |
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I have a recipe for a 'Shabbat shalet' which is a meat dish, no apples or matza. It's a kind of cholent and comes from Georgia (Europe)
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13673
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 9:48 am: |
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Lizziecat, the way I look at it, if I hurt someone, physically or emotionally, it's my fault. It's not up to me to say that it's the hurt person's fault by saying he/she is too sensitive. If you disagree, may I punch you in the stomach? If not, why not? If it hurts, isn't that your oversensitivity?
bobk, interestingly, the rule is that Passover is celebrated at home, whereas Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur are in the synagogue. It does make Passover quite jovial. I gather you've been to at least one seder.
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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7254
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 9:49 am: |
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I think the Jews do this better than most, although I think the last statement is going to be viewed as condescending by some.
You've obviously never hung out with Baptists, then.  Makes things quite difficult at T-giving time when both TS's and my families expect us to be there. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11220
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 1:33 pm: |
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I think it depends on what brand of Baptist you are associating with.
To be honest I find Southern Baptists (by far the largest group claiming that name) really boring and a bunch of holy rollers. Northern Baptists (American Baptist Convention) are a lot more fun and have been known to take a drink or three.
Yeah Tom, when in college. I was old enough to buy wine so I got invited. Ever try to find kosher wine in Indianapolis?
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