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Message |
    
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 6062
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 10:53 am: | 
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bkln,
Thank you for the explanation. Being deprived of your history by the slave trade is godawful terrible. But you shouldn't let it beat you down or ruin your prospects for a good life because there is nothing you can do about it, except get revenge by enjoying life and living well.
I also don't understand why getting an education and having a better life is viewed so negatively as "acting white", or "selling out" - that is SO self defeating. Can you explain that?
Everyone should aspire to a better life, white people don't own that concept and thinking that way is just wrong.
BTW, I don't have a clue who my ancestors are, (from a bunch of countries in Europe) - I am such a mutt the only connection I have is to America and I'm pretty grateful that my ancestors whoever they are came here
I do have close friends that are brothas and sistas (Sorry for the cliche!), that go to my parties - also, why don't come to the next MOL event? It'd be great to meet you in person.
Cheers! |
LilLB
Citizen
Username: Lillb
Post Number: 1536
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 11:10 am: |
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Glock - Can you explain how knowing what countries my anscestors came from shapes my future? or even my present for that matter? By your logic, anyone who is adopted (and doesn't know anything about their birth parents) should go through life expecting to be tied down by opression. I understand that people have a natural curiosity about where they and their families came from, but I don't think it's healthy to go through life feeling inadequate or opressed because you don't know much.
bklyn - I don't think I proved your point at all. You're making sweeping assumptions that people who don't agree with you don't care about anyone other than themselves.
I don't have a clue who my anscestors were. I have a sister who is obsessed with geneology. Me....I don't give a rats bumm about any of it. It's irrelevant - it doesn't give me any insight -- it's not like she's discovering interesting stories about the actual people - just names and dates and where they came from. Boring.... Don't care - doesn't mean anything to me.
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11253
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 11:19 am: |
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LilB, adoption is tough. I am the son of a mother who was adopted and had no idea of her background. It left a hole in her life and I think in mine as well. Our kids are also adopted, from abroad, and it leaves them a little disconnected sometimes as well. While they may have been the only Scottish/English/Irish Asian kids in Maplewood, sometimes their adopted heritage wasn't enough.
I think I see where Bklntonj is coming from. While I don't know if "oppressed" is the right word, a certain emptiness has to be there. Back in the 1980s a guy named Alex Hayly (sp?) wrote a book called Roots, where he traced his family back to Africa. Anyone who read the book or saw the subsequent TV drama based on the book can't help but be moved. |
LilLB
Citizen
Username: Lillb
Post Number: 1538
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 11:30 am: |
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Yeah - BobK, I can see how people have a natural curiosity about it. I guess my point though is that it didn't hold you back from making a good life for yourself.
I just think there's a difference between feeling disconnected from your heritage and letting that determine who you truly are and what you're about. |
bklyntonj
Citizen
Username: Bklyntonj
Post Number: 681
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 11:48 am: |
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LiLB, the difference is you have the option or choice.
what the heck is that poppy seeds in your picture? |
breal
Citizen
Username: Breal
Post Number: 849
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 12:03 pm: |
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Think what it means if you are African American and alive in 2006. You point out that you can't know the particulars of your heritage. That's a loss, and I won't pretend that I can imagine it or assess its impact.
But you don't need to know the particulars to draw the following conclusion: Your ancestors were Titans. They stayed alive. How did they do that? How did they do that under terribly harsh conditions--man v. nature in Africa and then in white-man-made slavery. How did they do that?
I would also point out that many African-Americans have European ancestors as well as African ancestors. Slave master and slave. Both. Messes up the us v. them thinking. Maybe a way forward is to think in terms of human beings, not races of human beings, and the human capacity to do right and do wrong.
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LilLB
Citizen
Username: Lillb
Post Number: 1541
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 12:12 pm: |
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bk - I agree there is a difference - I do have a choice to know or not to know. But, among the factors that help shape who I am, this falls to the bottom of the list of things that truly matter to me. Like I said, I do acknowledge that there is a curiosity people have about their heritage and if you don't know what that is, as Bob said, it can feel like there's a hole there.
Wouldn't you say though, that everyone has "holes" in their lives. I have holes in my life that I've just stopped trying to fill by figuring out the past and how it could have been different. It's truly a struggle to keep trying to fill a hole that will always be empty because you can't change what was. It's futile really. So, as much as I can, I just try to build on a new plot of land - why struggle with the holes? Examining the past is useful only if it helps you move forward and prevents you from making the same mistakes or the mistakes of others. I don't think examining the past is useful if you use it to keep yourself tied down.
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bklyntonj
Citizen
Username: Bklyntonj
Post Number: 682
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 12:43 pm: |
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LiLB, I will say this. I think our chances of getting along and understanding one another are better here in our community than in other places.
Unfortunately, we can go on and on about race but class causes the biggest division of all. Far too many issues...
So, what is that picture? Are you promoting poppy fields or what?  |
LilLB
Citizen
Username: Lillb
Post Number: 1542
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 12:49 pm: |
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Oh - sorry I forgot you asked that. They're lily of the valley - one of my favorites. Supposedly when you plant them - they spread like wildfire. Unfortunately, I planted about 5 of them a few years ago and if I'm lucky, I just get a leaf or two that break through the soil - sad really. Perhaps this will be the year I get a flower or two dangling off that leaf...
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LW
Citizen
Username: Lrw
Post Number: 97
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 2:44 pm: |
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LilLB-I don't think that any person of African descent, or adoptee, is saying that not knowing your past determines your future, but I think that we all concur that this sense of diconnectedness does still prevail in our lives, even if we are several generations removed. Although many whites may be quick to say that slavery was so long ago, its affects last through todays living Blacks. And it doesn't just go back to slavery, or when we first arrived here from Africa. There was a wonderful series that aired during the month of February on PBS, where noted scholar Dr Henry Louis Gates traced the roots of celebrities (Oprah Winfrey, Mae Jemison, Chris Tucker, Bishop TD Jakes). He even teamed up with genealogists, taking the celebs DNA, in an effort to locate the region in Africa that they originated from. Chris Tucker was so excited to finally know where he came from that he boarded a plane that same week and flew to where his ancestors were from. Oprah was moved to tears when she learned about the life of her slave grand and great grandparents. It was an overwhelming feeling for all those involved, and I would really encourage everyone to watch, especially those who are so perplexed with why some are sensitive to not knowing your past.
Also, as was mentioned in a previous post, a lot of Black Americans have white in them as well, and I bet you don’t know why that is. This other dirty little secret of slavery is hardly ever taught, mentioned, or accurately portrayed.
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LilLB
Citizen
Username: Lillb
Post Number: 1543
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 3:07 pm: |
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Lw - I would concur with that -- the first paragraph that is, not the part about me not knowing how people with "white" in them get that way.
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LW
Citizen
Username: Lrw
Post Number: 99
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 3:10 pm: |
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Maybe you're misunderstanding my last paragraph, what don't you agree with? |
LilLB
Citizen
Username: Lillb
Post Number: 1544
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 3:19 pm: |
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That I wouldn't understand how someone who is of mixed races biologically gets that way. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4239
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 3:28 pm: |
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"This other dirty little secret of slavery is hardly ever taught, mentioned, or accurately portrayed. "
This might not be taught in schools, but the use of slaves for sex is hardly a secret. This is a not uncommon result whenever the male has more power (money, authority). |
bklyntonj
Citizen
Username: Bklyntonj
Post Number: 683
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 4:01 pm: |
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tjohn, gimme a break...
Blacks were breeded like livestock with each other(remember Jimmy the Greek's comment). Treated like the animals slavery portrayed us to be. This is VERY uncommon of "whenever the male has more power (money, authority). Your comment, "using slaves for sex", goes far beyond just how many AAs have "white" in them. But it does explain in some dysfunctional way why black men measure their manhood on how many women they sleep with. |
Oldstone
Citizen
Username: Rogers4317
Post Number: 669
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 4:21 pm: |
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LW, i agree with you on that pbs program...it was fascinating...and some of the findings were very surprising! i'm a white guy, but i was ballin' along with oprah. this kind of emotion crosses all color barriers. it is a human emotion.
what i find hard to understand though (along with mem) is the "selling out" or "acting white" thing. doesn't that kind of attitude keep us apart rather than together? shouldn't we all aspire to live next to one another? an affluent lifestyle is an american dream. everyone that lives in this country aspires to that lifestyle presumably, no? why are those african americans identified as "selling out"? if i was african american and lived a better life i would be disgusted and pissed off at those begrudging me all my hard work and effort to live to my full potential if that's what i want. horizontal hate is terrible. |
LW
Citizen
Username: Lrw
Post Number: 102
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 4:21 pm: |
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LilLB-Gets what way? I'm really trying to understand you. Maybe the terms "mixed races" and "biologically" are throwing me off. |
LilLB
Citizen
Username: Lillb
Post Number: 1546
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 4:30 pm: |
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Perhaps it's best if you explain what you meant by that last paragraph to make it clearer. |
LW
Citizen
Username: Lrw
Post Number: 103
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 4:35 pm: |
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OLDSTONE-Other Blacks have never made me personally feel that I've sold out because I went to college and have a job. I get constant praise and acknowlegment from my people. But maybe that sentiment is different in other areas of our country. However, I think that the general idea that being educated and/or having a job where you can actually make use of your intellect stems from institutional racist practices that prohibited Blacks from colleges and jobs that didn't require physical labor, or cleaning up behind a white person. Because these were not options for Blacks, naturally they were perceived as "white". I don't think that this thinking is limited to Blacks, however, because I've actually met white people honest enough to admit that I talk so good for a Black person, or that I dressed so nicely and wore such nice things for a Black person. As if they still find it hard to believe that Blacks can speak the English language, or have money to afford nice things. |
LW
Citizen
Username: Lrw
Post Number: 104
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 4:42 pm: |
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I basically meant what BKLYNTONJ explained in his last post. |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 690
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 4:43 pm: |
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You mean you speak so well? hahaah
"talk so good" nyuk nyuk |
LilLB
Citizen
Username: Lillb
Post Number: 1547
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 4:50 pm: |
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LW - I was responding to this:
a lot of Black Americans have white in them as well, and I bet you don’t know why that is. This other dirty little secret of slavery is hardly ever taught, mentioned, or accurately portrayed.
I guess I couldn't understand how you would assert that any of that is a secret that I wouldn't know about. Simple as that.
My apologies if I misunderstood you.
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bklyntonj
Citizen
Username: Bklyntonj
Post Number: 684
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 4:52 pm: |
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mem & oldstone, I'll explain the train of thought, not confirm the rationality in it.
Blacks have always identified with one another by struggle. That's the one commonality we all had. When one (black) starts achieving things in life, they no longer are able to connect or identify with others left struggling. For example, when some slaves were fortunate enough to recive chores in the house of the slavemaster, they no longer had to work as hard or get treated as badly as the slaves in the field. This caused serious animosity between the field slave and the house slave. Similiar to how the relationship is now between blacks in the suburbs and blacks in the inner cities. That's why many blacks who are considered the "haves" are considered "acting white or selling out" by the blacks considered "have nots".
LW, LiLB gets it. LiLB understands most blacks have white in them through some form of rape or sexual manipulation of slave owning whites.
My goodness! Did you two break the new rule? Judges? mem, what do you think, red or white?  |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 6071
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 5:06 pm: |
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bklyn,
Thank you for that explanation - I understand!
But I still think it's terribly negative and unproductive. Do you think it's responsible for the achievement gap?
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Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 691
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 5:07 pm: |
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"We must eliminate the ridiculous notion that a black child with a book, is acting white!"
Barack Obama |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 6072
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 5:10 pm: |
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BTW, since you asked, I'm having an alcohol free day. I slightly overserved myself last night because I had a day from hell, and I was also worried that people think I am a puppy abuser, but that's for a different thread. The weather calls for white though. Cheers!
 |
bklyntonj
Citizen
Username: Bklyntonj
Post Number: 685
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 5:28 pm: |
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Depends mem. IMO, the achievement gap between blacks and whites is mainly due to intimidation. Many whites assume that blacks that come here from inner cities or poverty-stricken areas just don't have the qualifications to join right in. That's why many black children who come here are automatically thrown in Project Ahead or left back. Some whites (or even blacks who've been out here for years) feel intimidated by more blacks moving in and feel like the QOL will decrease so there's more effort to teach around blacks than to them.
I also feel as though many black youth get attached to the lyrics and actions in videos and try too hard to act like what they consider as being cool, "street life". It is related though, black youth trying to relate via struggles...
Hmmm, I think you have something there mem... |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 6073
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 5:36 pm: |
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bkln,
Does the MSO school system really do that to Black kids? When I was in CHS I don't remember that happening to any of my friends but it could have without knowing it? Also, my friends didn't move here from somewhere else, they grew up in the MSO school system. I have to honestly say there wasn't really an achievement gap back then. |
Cynicalgirl
Citizen
Username: Cynicalgirl
Post Number: 2642
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 8:59 pm: |
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I'm struck by bklntonj's remark about intimidation -- either kids feeling intimidated, or being made to feel intimidated. Or, in some way not part of the prevaling classroom norm. In my ancient youth, much attention was paid to the girls' achievement gap with respect to math, and similar theories were offered. Put them in all girl classes to teach them math. Alter the presentation of material. Call on them more if they were not as aggressive in class (hand waving, calling out).
And I find myself wondering a bunch of things, like...
Is the gap most significant for Black male students?
Is there still a signif gap between White males and White females?
How about Black females and White females?
What happens in all of this when class/income is held constant?
Where to multiracial kids fit in, and how does the gap play out?
May sound dumb, but I find myself wondering, in particular, where biracial kids get counted, and how they feel about it all. Kids perceptions, and teachers. At least one of my kid's teachers went on in class about "you privileged White kids" when 2 kids at least are biracial (one White parent, one Black parent). Kids had to correct her misperception. And given all of this, how in the heck do we expect to get to the bottom of causes and address? |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 4661
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:30 pm: |
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I went to school with all girls, and there was still a math gap. In fact, there was still an achievement gap. Some kids are smart, but some kids are smarter. |
bklyntonj
Citizen
Username: Bklyntonj
Post Number: 686
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:38 pm: |
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Cynicalgirl, you bring up a lot of very good points. I'll answer them in order and due to time constraints, shortly:
1. yes
2. I would say yes
3. yes
4. the gap decreases after time
5. the gap decreases
mem, I don't know when you graduated but I don't think "issue" with AAs being in MSO became so important until the population grew so rapidly. I would say in the last 5-10 years.
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Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 697
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 1:23 am: |
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she watch she watch she watch channel zero |
Flimbro
Citizen
Username: Flimbro
Post Number: 39
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 1:45 am: |
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Whoa what happened over here? |
Glock 17
Citizen
Username: Glock17
Post Number: 698
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 1:46 am: |
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I shall wage no war on this day. |
LW
Citizen
Username: Lrw
Post Number: 106
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 8:48 am: |
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Exactly, GLOCK. That's what makes it so silly, when they tell you that you "talk so good", when they can't even speak well themselves. |
Oldstone
Citizen
Username: Rogers4317
Post Number: 670
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 1:06 pm: |
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thank you, LW and bklytonj, for helping me understand. what you say makes perfect sense to me. |
Sherlock
Citizen
Username: Sherlock
Post Number: 68
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 1:12 pm: |
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An example of instutional racism, that I witnessed, that still exists, and may be helpful.
a couple of years ago my son had to take drivers ed in summer school. It was stupid but he needed to have the class to graduate, and he just didn't take the final. My feelings were, it's on him, but to insure that it got taken care of I went to the deans office on the appointed day to sign him up. There was a very long line of students (40ish) already and it was 15min before the start up time. Most, if not all were students of color, with, at that time my son the only exception. There were 2 secretarys and Dean Bailey to do the registering, the registration was to go on all afternoon. This was the only day and time to register. It was done on the second floor in the deans office. Any one with a parent got to by pass the line. there were, at that time about 6 parents there.
Now I have been at the high school a long time. If this was for "gifted" summer school registration would have occurred in the cafeteria and it would have had a staff of at least a dozen or more. Why, because the parents of "gifted" students would not tolerate this kind of treatment.
Most of the kids parents weren't there because they were working, so we punish them for that?
I was furious that this was set up this way and called the principal only to be told that I should be glad there was a summer school at all and should not complain about how understaffed and disorganized the registration process was.
I know for a fact kids waited well over an hour.
This is instituional from top to bottom. In this society we think that if someone stumbles, they fail, and if they fail it is their fault, and we think that they deserve to be discomfitted, because they failed.
When you look at something like this and see that the "victims" of this behavior are mostly AA's it can be read no other way but racist. This kind of thing happens at the high school all the time. And people have really good excuses, we didn't have the money, it was last minute, or whatever, and they really believe what they are saying and are completely closed to the fact that it is racist and classist by it's very nature. And until we get that and start to understand that, not only must we hold every child to the same exacting standards, we most hold every adult to it as well.
This happens every day in society. |
The Notorious S.L.K.
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1302
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 1:48 pm: |
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Sherlock:
"This is instituional from top to bottom. In this society we think that if someone stumbles, they fail, and if they fail it is their fault..."
This isn't always the case but if someone does fail due to their own fault then it would only be right (and true) to point this out.
Believe it or not, many people fail due to themselves and the actions/decisions they make.
-SLK |
breal
Citizen
Username: Breal
Post Number: 851
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 1:56 pm: |
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I saw that PBS thing with Oprah, too. (Now Glock, don't you take potshots about middle-aged white women who love Oprah.) It's still on my mind. They didn't show Oprah's mom, with whom she lived for part of her growing up, in a northern city. They showed Oprah's dad, who still lives in the South Carolina county where his ancestors farmed their own land. The dad had moved to town and become successful in another business before Oprah became Oprah, though. And he was all business, Oprah's dad. Very literal, not a big talker--kind of like a judge. Oprah must have got her gift of gab from her mother.
When the PBS interviewer asked her to describe her father, Oprah stopped talking. She thought carefully about just the right words. That was the moment she most resembled him. Then she said her father was an honorable man. She talked about how he didn't say things he didn't mean. There were no warm and cuddly adjectives. Either she knew he wouldn't like words like that or he just wasn't warm and cuddly. She seemed to want to credit him as a steadying influence, though.
Anyway, when things fell apart in the northern city, Oprah as a pregnant teenager was sent back to live with her dad & stepmother in the south. Her dad was strict, and at first she didn't tell him about the pregnancy. It turned out that the baby died shortly after birth, however. The death seems to have galvanized Oprah, who worked herself right through high school, right through college, and all the way into Oprah-hood.
The show was full of real-life stories like that, that don't sound fake. |
LW
Citizen
Username: Lrw
Post Number: 114
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 2:37 pm: |
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Anytime, OLDSTONE, and thank you for having the patience and humanity to want to understand. This is so beautiful, we're all being so compassionate, and I think we're really making genuine efforts to understand one another. |
Sherlock
Citizen
Username: Sherlock
Post Number: 69
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 2:41 pm: |
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And sometimes government fails the people. In this country we are supposed to get an quality education. Look at some of the schools in irvington, any of the inner cites of america. these children are institutional and systemically failed by thier government. Do people rise above? of course. do enough people rise? no. And what are your options if it wasn't you who failed but the system failed you? Are children supposed to bare the burden of fault in this case? If a child has to learn in a classroom without proper desks, materials or a safe environment and has difficults that arise out of this environment is it the childs fault? And I would argue that at least half of the time that a child recieves an F it is the fault of the teacher. the F means the child failed to learn, which means that the teacher failed to teach. And sometimes the teachers failure to teach was the result of the systems failure to provide that which was needed to teach successfully. And do we hold the system at fault? the government? the teacher? no, it is so much easier to hold the child at fault isn't?
In our district placement in a level is based in part on testing, classroom performance and teacher reccommendation. In third grade you are reccommended for explorations (gifted) also based on these criteria. I know of several cases where AA children were not reccommended for explorations. When the parents question this they were told things like, " I felt little johnny would be overwhelmed by the extra workload, or I felt little mary is doing really well and didn't think it was a good Idea to add something else. or I thought little shaniqua wouldn't be happy." This on it's face denies the child in question an opportuntiy, an opportunity that should be given to them and let the parents make the decision of whether or not it is too much. And if the same decsions are not being made of white children then maybe the teacher is bias, and this kind of unknown bias, by someone who in fact cares and feels that they are making a decision on what is best for a child results in things like the achievement gap. |
The Notorious S.L.K.
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1303
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 3:02 pm: |
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Sherlock,
I don't hold the child at fault at all unless they choose not to learn. Grades are mostly based on homework and quizes/tests. Is it the teachers fault that a child fails to do his/her homework or fails the tests?
I hold the parents responsible more than anything. If the system is failing the children then it is a shame. If the parents don't do anything about it then it is a tragedy. Parental participation is one of the key points in this equation
Do you ever ask yourself why so many parents in SOMA are vehment over their child's education?
In my world, if you have trouble reading then get help. Start reading more or get a tutor. Same with math. Yes, it is that simple.
Racism isn't the blame for everything Sherlock. I wonder if the roles in reverse where white kids were at the losing end of the achievement gap would all this hoopla exist. I have a feeling it would be more like "get a tutor" and get over it.... |
crabby
Citizen
Username: Crabbyappleton
Post Number: 559
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 8:24 pm: |
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poor poor irvington. They get abbott money, spend $12,000+ per pupil (more than SMO) and they are still failing. That is not an example of the government failing the people. |
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