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Spanish Inquisitor
Citizen
Username: Sinq
Post Number: 54
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 3:47 pm: | 
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No one expects gluten-free host! or the Spanish Inquisition... |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 7254
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 4:04 pm: |
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A person may not expect gluten-free host but wouldn't making such an alternative available be the Catholic equivalent of a mitzvah? Shouldn't a worshiper's health take precedence over strict adhearance to tradition? |
dougw
Citizen
Username: Dougw
Post Number: 822
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 4:17 pm: |
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Joan did you read the article?
"Church officials have grappled repeatedly in recent years with the collision between longstanding church teachings and modern medicine. In his previous job leading the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Pope Benedict XVI addressed the issue of worshippers suffering from celiac disease and alcoholism, allowing for the substitution of low-gluten wafers and a slightly fermented grape juice."
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bottomline
Citizen
Username: Bottomline
Post Number: 412
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 4:37 pm: |
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Joan,
There is no such as gluten-free wheat wafers. When somebody invents gluten-free wheat (and they are trying) it will be a big hit in the marketplace for all the celiac sufferers among us.
Cody,
It makes no difference if the bread is leavened or not, it's the gluten in the wheat that's the problem.
Doug,
So called low gluten wafers still pose a dilemma for celiacs, just as low alcohol wine does for alcoholics. It pits the church against medicine, even if it’s at a philosophical rather than pragmatic level.
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dougw
Citizen
Username: Dougw
Post Number: 823
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 4:52 pm: |
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Also it is not the amount of wafer that you recieve that is important to the Church. When they run low they break the wafers in 2,4 or even more. I have recieved communion in remote areas (hiking in New Mexico) where I got only a piece smaller than a dime.
If this was this small and low gluten would it effect celiacs? |
bottomline
Citizen
Username: Bottomline
Post Number: 413
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 5:02 pm: |
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Somebody asked what would Jesus do with this case. Here’s what I think Jesus would say,“You’ve lost track of the meaning of the Gospel. I preached that everyone is welcome to worship the Lord. I dined with lepers. Do you think I would turn away someone just because their disease wasn’t known to medical science during my time on earth? Why did I overturn the tables of the moneychangers? Why did Martin Luther post his convictions on the cathedral door? Because the mere mortals who steward the faithful are sometimes petty and self-absorbed and forget that my message is for all people to commune directly with God.”
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bottomline
Citizen
Username: Bottomline
Post Number: 414
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 5:07 pm: |
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Doug,
You're acting like some medieval functionary. It's not a question of you or I speculating whether a small amount of wheat would affect a given celiac sufferer. It's about the church forcing that person to ingest poison or be turned away.
That's not the Gospel I know. But then I'm not Catholic, only catholic.
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dougw
Citizen
Username: Dougw
Post Number: 824
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 5:27 pm: |
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I was not speculating I was asking a question. Again read the article the Church is NOT turning anyone away.
''They're going to find a way for that First Communion," he said. ''There's no question about that."
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cody
Citizen
Username: Cody
Post Number: 987
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 5:30 pm: |
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Thanks bottomline. I did know that. I was trying to point out that the typical communion wafer of today isn't an exact replica of whatever was used at the Last Supper.
Guess I could have been clearer. |
SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 1695
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 7:21 pm: |
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Based on the concept of transubstantiation, it seems silly that the church would approve cannabilism yet shudder at the thought of allowing for the substitution of rice.
I'd prefer to believe God was more big picture and less bogged down in the minutia. |
Lydia
Supporter
Username: Lydial
Post Number: 1778
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 7:54 pm: |
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The Pope recently decreed that if you're Catholic you have to believe in transubstantiation, among other things.
What I don't understand is how any "good" Catholic can bend the rules - either you're in or out.
Most Catholics I know (including my husband) bend the rules and pick and choose a la carte menu balancing science and faith, which is fine, but not Catholicism.
Maybe Episcopalian might fit better, or even Methodist (!)
Don't get me started on the Lutherans - standing up, sitting down - it's exhausting,and all the lonely types either singing too loud or annoying at Fellowship - oy vey.
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bets
Supporter
Username: Bets
Post Number: 22937
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 9:01 pm: |
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My name is Bets, and I'm a recovering Catholic. It's been 20 plus years now - thank you very much - ever since I figured out that I am not a second-class citizen solely because I am a woman. |
Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 385
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 10:08 am: |
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It's uncanny. Two or three times a year on this forum and others the Church becomes a punching bag. I don't see anyone going crazy about the Jewish dietary prescriptions. I see threads about how to comply and how confusing they are, but never any criticism.
CLK- The reason you didn't get the Eucharist when you had your gall bladder operation is that the Rite administered to you was not Extreme Unction or Last Rites...it was the Anointing of the Sick. Communion is necessarily given in the former case, not the latter. Two different rites. Viaticum means literally "food for the journey". I'm happy to say that the only journey they expected you to take was down the hall to surgery.
If you don't agree with the teachings of the Church or don't understand them, then you are free to disagree or question. The ridicule and sarcasm, however, don't advance the dialogue.
Let's see what the Church does about this little girl. The Church is generally compassionate and I'm sure a just resolution will be found. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13642
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 1:41 pm: |
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Joe R, as someone pointed out, we are having a similar argument in another thread over what's kosher for Passover. One difference is that Jews are comfortable having no agreement or consensus in the end. That's our tradition.
My take on this communion argument is that -- correct me if I'm wrong -- the Church has a collective consciousness, and breaking the rules of the Church offends that consciousness. Perhaps it offends God, but I doubt it. But that's not the topic of the argument here.
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Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1147
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 2:16 pm: |
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dougw, you can twist my words around all you want, but you and everyone else understood exactly what I said.
Do I think religion is a game? Yes a little bit. For 2000 years since Jesus the church and the popes and everyone involved did whatever the hell they felt like. Crusades, wars, killing, murders, stealing... just to name a few. And today the Catholic Church may not be involved in any of these things, but in fact the church is built on over time by man, not god. Jesus never set up an organized religion. Man did, and there will inherently be flaws. (unless of course the pope says it, then it is right. Unless of course a later pope reverses that claim, and then it is no longer right.)
So is the catholic church a game? Not really, but the agreement can surely be made.
I expressed my opinion on the subject, but just because I am a Catholic does not mean that I have to necessarily believe in what the church says and does. For instance, the church does not believe homosexuality is right, and is a sin. So therefore unless you really are a great person who repents for you homosexual sins you are going to hell according to the church. Do I believe this? No, absolutely not! I just hope that other Catholics are not blinded by Church doctrine to what is really decent and moral.
I was not trying to pick a fight with you about the Catholic Church. We are all entitled to an opinion in this country, if not in the church.
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Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 1739
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 2:58 pm: |
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No Tom, there is no consensus. If you are Catholic you listen to the Pope. I wasn't kidding when I said that the Pope SPEAKS TO GOD. This is a historical fact. This isn't open for discussion. If you are Catholic YOU BELIEVE THIS, if not, then you aren't Catholic. So it doesn't matter what YOU or ANYONE ELSE thinks tha the Bible or New Testament means. It's not up to you to decide. The Pope's opinion is law, because it's not opinion...it's iron clad FACT directly from GOD. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13646
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 3:04 pm: |
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Well OK then. I'm not used to a structure like that, so I made a big assumption.
I invite everyone to read the kosher for Passover thread for a few laughs and eye-rolling. Please start at the archive(s) for full context.
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finnegan
Supporter
Username: Finnegan
Post Number: 328
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 3:43 pm: |
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Alleygater -
Forgive my ignorance, but I'm interested in learning more about your assertations that:
1) the Pope speaks to God, and
2)if you don't believe this, then you're not Catholic.
(please correct me if I have misread your claims.)
Can you suggest where I should look to read more on this? Scripture, the Patristics, the Summa, the Codex of Canon law, the Catechism?
I take it you're not talking about rare occurance of the Pope speaking ex cathedra on matters of doctrine, but again, please correct me if I am mistaken.
Thanks for your help. |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 1746
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 4:29 pm: |
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A TWO SECOND GOOGLE SEARCH FOUND THIS:
Question: What does the Bible say about the pope / papacy?
Christ made Peter the leader of the apostles and of the church (Matthew 16:18-19), and in giving him the “keys of the kingdom,” Christ not only made him leader but also made him infallible when he acted or spoke as Christ’s representative on earth (speaking from the seat of authority or ex cathedra). This ability to act on behalf of the church in an infallible way when speaking ex cathedra was passed on to Peter’s successors, thus giving the Church an infallible guide on earth to lead the Church unerringly.
This same article went on and on and on. Not to mention the Pope has changed the rules throughout history as it suited his needs.
Also please keep in mind I don't PERSONALLY care whether someone calls themselves a Catholic or a Carrot for that matter. I'm just stating that these things aren't particularly open for debate. There is the head of the church who decides these matters who has the authority (DIRECTLY FROM GOD) to decide what he pleases. If you choose not to accept what that person decrees...I think it would be fairly easy to argue that you aren't a Catholic. And in fact very many people have died fighting over that point. Many have been excommunicated as well. Am I the one who is going to argue that point with you? Nope, I don't feel like it today. |
finnegan
Supporter
Username: Finnegan
Post Number: 329
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 5:13 pm: |
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Thank you, Alleygator, I took a look at that site.
www.gotquestions.org
In the article you referenced, I noticed this final paragraph:
"While there have been good (humanly speaking) and moral men who have served as Pope of the Roman Catholic Church, including Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, the Roman Catholic Church teaching about the office of the Pope should be rejected because it is not “in continuity” with the teachings of the original church, that related to us in the New Testament. This comparison of any church’s teaching is essential, lest we miss the New Testament’s teaching concerning the gospel and not only miss eternal life in heaven ourselves but unwittingly lead others down the wrong path as well (Galatians 1:8-9)." (emphasis added)
So, your source for your claims about Catholic teaching is a website that encourages rejecting Catholic church teaching and suggests Catholics will be going to hell.
While it's always interesting (to me anyway) to read sectarian polemics, I'd like to politely suggest that they might not be the best way to explain what a specific denomination professes to believe.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13661
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 5:22 pm: |
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Innisowen, CLK, (and others), can you comment on this article?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_infallibility
I know CLK doesn't like wikipedia, since it's not authoritative, because it doesn't have a rigorous review process.
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CLK
Supporter
Username: Clkelley
Post Number: 2178
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 6:00 pm: |
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Joe R.,
Where was I sarcastic?
I may disagree with elements of Catholicism, but I would never, ever be sarcastic towards it. If you think I was, you mis-read me. In fact, I actually despise sarcasm as a rule, and avoid it in all aspects of my life.
The priest who blessed me in the hospital told me it was Extreme Unction, formerly known as Last Rites. He explained to me that it was no longer given just to the dying. Perhaps it was not this Sacrament, but that is what he told me. His English wasn't very good (he was Vietnamese) so perhaps I misunderstood. But I certainly thought that's what was happening. |
finnegan
Supporter
Username: Finnegan
Post Number: 330
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 8:17 pm: |
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CLK,
I know you weren't speaking to me, so I hope you'll forgive me for responding (Joe. R., same goes for you) but it may help to think of it this way: Viaticum is a special name given to the sacrament of the Eucharist when received in the context of the sacrament of Anointing of the Sick, which according to Canon law is no longer reserved for only those certain to soon face death. Still, (your case being a good example, clkelly) not everyone who receives the sacrament of Anointing is physically able to receive Viaticum.
It is exactly parallel to the reception of the Eucharist in the Sacrament of Marriage, i.e. a separate sacrament received in the context or ceremony of a specific and different sacrament. It's just that when the Eucharist is received in the context of a marriage liturgy, it has no special name (like "Viaticum") although the rites for the Sacrament of marriage are different depending on whether or not there will also be a Eucharistic celebration.
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Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 386
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 8:21 pm: |
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Tom: I think Catholics (most of them anyway) are comfortable with the debate of doctrinal issues. From what I can gather about the Kosher discussion, Jews may be comfortable with the fact that there is no concensus, but this probably stems from the fact that there is no hierarchy. On the other hand, how comfortable are the ultra-orthodox with more liberal interpretations of the dietary laws? Don't they believe that violation of the strict letter of the law is a sin against God? Who can be comfortable with sin?
The fact of the matter is, faith and religion (two different things in my book) are deep, mysterious and wonderful. I don't believe the "forms" are all that important for everyone to adhere to. I observe them, but there are better human beings than me who don't. The Church no longer holds that the unbaptised are damned, only that as a roadmap to eternal life, their way is the way prescribed by Jesus and his followers and therefore the best way. I think of it and all other forms of organized religion as setting up a system of good habits and as providing tools for contemplation.
It is most appropriate during this spiritual season of Passover and Easter to extend best wishes for a peaceful, tolerant and understanding holiday. |
CLK
Supporter
Username: Clkelley
Post Number: 2179
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 8:35 pm: |
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finnegan, thank you for that explanation. It is very helpful, and makes me feel as if perhaps my memory is OK after all. Sometimes I do wonder. ;-) I also know that my knowledge of some aspects of Catholicism are fairly weak, and I appreciate the ability to learn more.
Joe R said, "It is most appropriate during this spiritual season of Passover and Easter to extend best wishes for a peaceful, tolerant and understanding holiday."
Indeed. Well said, Joe.
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CLK
Supporter
Username: Clkelley
Post Number: 2180
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 8:56 pm: |
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PS Tom Reingold - I'd just as soon stay mum on this if you don't mind. I'm getting myself in enough trouble around here lately already. ;-)
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Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 7257
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 9:04 pm: |
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Doug:
I read the article. I understand that there is a conflict between religious doctrine on the one hand and a child's illnesses on the other. I even saw the part of the article which said that the Church was working towards a solution so that the girl could take First Communion even though both the wafer and the wine could be threatening to her health because of her celiac's disease and diabetes.
What I don't understand is why the finding of this solution is requiring such prolonged discussion and soul searching. Certainly, she is not the first Catholic to be afflicted with this combination of ailments. If the Church is taking the position that a way should be found for the girl to take First Communion why isn't the solution already at hand? If gluten free wafers are not possible because of a requirement that wheat be taken and nobody has yet to come up with a gluten free wheat wafer and wine is not possible she might have an adverse reaction to it, why can't the child be given unsweetened grape juice which contains no wheat and could be considered a fruit exchange?
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13667
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:33 am: |
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Thank you, Joe R. Yes to everything you say. Happy Easter to all.
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Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 388
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 10:11 pm: |
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Joan: The unfermented grape juice would work. I think this is the solution they are striving for. They call it "mustum" and this is what alcoholic priests use to celebrate Mass. As I read the article, the delay is in the parents consulting with the doctors to see if the grape juice would be ok. I have a feeling the solution may already be in place. The article is a few days old now and I haven't seen a follow-up article. I'd appreciate it if they would give one of us a call thought so we can learn and move on.
Tom: It sounds like your Passover was great. I'm looking forward to Easter tomorrow. I gave up drinking for Lent and a have a beautiful bottle of Barolo in my sights. I'll crack it open tomorrow at dinner, even though the guy at the Wine Library told me he thinks it's still a little young (2001). I'll decant!! Then I'll drink it. |
Joan
Supporter
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 7263
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 10:16 am: |
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Joe R.:
Thanks so much for your reply. I am glad to learn that a workable solution is at hand. |
Psychomom
Citizen
Username: Psychomom
Post Number: 112
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 12:45 pm: |
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This is a particularly long thread and I only skimmed through it quickly but I did see some misconceptions about Catholic church doctrines...
The notion that the Pope is infallible in all things and that Catholics must listen to the Pope is only partly true. It is only when he speaks EX CATHEDRA that this applies...I don't have the exact statistics but in recent church history there have only been less than 10 of these pronouncements.
Extreme Unction/Annointing of the Sick.... Extreme Unction was the old name for this sacrament...the church realized that many people could benefit from the grace of a sacrament in time of illness and so it was change to the Sacrament of the Sick or Annointing of the Sick to remove the fear and stigma that the person was ready for death. It is a sacrament that one may receive more than once. Viaticum as someone commented is indeed meant to be "food for the journey".
I didn't see the original posting of the story behind CLK's not receiving communion before gall bladder surgery but don't be too quick to pass judgement on the church for that. With all the issues of privacy in healthcare it is often the case that if you do not authorize a priest (sometimes even it has to be by name) the hospital will not release a list of Catholic Patients or allow the priest free reign to roam the halls with communion. I know this from my former pastor who had to jump through hoops with Irvington General Hospital to try and bring the sacraments to some parishioners who were in the hospital.
It is also my experience that many Catholics particularly in the US are "a la carte" Catholics but in the really big things, like what we believe about Jesus, the Bible etc there is more agreement. I would suspect the same is true in many religions.
The low gluten hosts are available and like someone said any size piece of the host can be used to administer the sacrament of the Eucharist so if allergy is a problem the tiniest speck could validly be used.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13793
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 12:54 pm: |
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That's fine, but with some allergies, the tiniest speck can be deadly. I don't know about the girl in question has an allergy that severe, but you should know that with some people, reducing the quantity of the irritant is no favor at all.
And that brings you back to the drawing board.
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Psychomom
Citizen
Username: Psychomom
Post Number: 113
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 1:17 pm: |
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But I would suspect that someone that allergic is rare. The church only asks that we receive the Eucharist at least once a year. So I think most people would be able to do that. I, too, am less inclined to quibble about the make-up of the bread but then I guess I'm "a la carte" here. It is maddening to me as a catholic when these kinds of issues come up. But I still like my church by and large. To me it's like a marriage, you embrace it like you would a spouse, faults and all, and learn to compromise. At least that's the way I have reconciled it to my life.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13796
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 1:55 pm: |
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It doesn't matter how rare it is. It seems to me that you would want some sort of accomodation for an allergy that can't tolerate an imperceptible speck of of the irritant. Saying it's rare is not an accomodation for those who need one.
Extreme food allergies are on the sharp increase. A 2001 NY Times Magazine article on the subject said that it might be up to 7%. My daughter has a life-threatening allergy to nuts. We've been to the emergency room a few times. Not fun.
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Pippi
Supporter
Username: Pippi
Post Number: 2119
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 2:29 pm: |
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not to drift too far off topic:
"Extreme food allergies are on the sharp increase. A 2001 NY Times Magazine article on the subject said that it might be up to 7%"
why is this happening?
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13801
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 2:35 pm: |
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No one knows why this is happening. Some say that the level may not be changing but we're just noticing it. That doesn't seem the least bit plausible to me. An anaphyllactic response doesn't go unnoticed.
Some think the level of toxins and pollutants increases our sensitivity. Some think it might be that our resistance is weakened when we are very young because our environment is too clean. Both of these are plausible but seem unprovable.
But we hear stories of kids who can't be in the same room as peanut butter and can't think of many stories like that when we were kids.
Luckily for my daughter, she can be in the same room as nuts, and she's not allergic to peanuts at all. Peanuts are not nuts, though some people are allergic to both at the same time. She is not.
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Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 394
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 2:41 pm: |
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I've just read another article about Victoria and she is diabetic as well. This is the basis, apparently, for the objection to her receiving the Sacrament in the form of the non-alcoholic wine. However, since the most wine any of us take at Communion is barely enough to wet the lips and since, as psychomom points out, it doesn't matter how much of it you take, the solution lies in having Victoria take the tiniest imaginable amount of wine. I think Tom is right about the allergy issue. Remember the gilr who died from kissing the boy who had eaten peanuts? However, the work-out on this issue is obviously for Victoria to take a tiny drop of wine. I can't believe this would have any measurable impact on her blood sugar.
I am now getting the impression from reading other articles from Boston that the parents main gripe here is not that Victoria will not be allowed to receive Communion, but rather that from the standpoint of appearances, she will be administered to in a different looking way. Put differently, they don't care that Victoria's Communion ceremony is IN FACT different from the others (as it would be if they used rice), as long as it doesn't LOOK different.
This is misguided and superficial. They have unfairly put the kid in the cross-fire. The Sacrament is about spirituality, not forms and appearances.
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Camnol
Citizen
Username: Camnol
Post Number: 304
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 2:53 pm: |
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My mother is struggling with this issue. She was diagnosed with gluten intolerance late in life. As a Roman Catholic, communion is very important to her. For awhile she was buying rice communion wafers and her priest was blessing them for her. The archdiocese put an end to that however. She has contacted everyone she can think of, but no one is willing to help her. She says that she feels thrown away by her church. Every once in awhile she'll break and take communion, but then she gets sick.
She was very angry with me for leaving the Catholic church (I'm now a Methodist). I point out that if she became a Methodist she could take communion. She's not as ticked at me as she once was...
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LibraryLady..
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3310
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 2:54 pm: |
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BY the way, and not to change the subject, the girl in Canada who they thought died of a severe reaction to her boyfriend's peanut butter laden kiss, did NOT. The coronor ruled her death was caused by something else but they haven't released the results. |
LilLB
Citizen
Username: Lillb
Post Number: 1567
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:04 pm: |
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And Celiac disease is not an allergy after all, it's a genetic disease. I really don't know much at all about it, but came across this:
http://www.boston.com/ae/food/articles/2006/04/19/information_support_for_celiac _sufferers/
http://www.tenerifenews.com/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=1&idcat=18&idart =3952
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13803
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:04 pm: |
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Forgive me, but since Camnol used the term "Roman Catholic" I want to ask, are there any other kinds of Catholics?
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Camnol
Citizen
Username: Camnol
Post Number: 305
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:14 pm: |
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It's a term my mother always uses, maybe because she's Italian. 
From Wikipedia:
"The Church considered in this article uses many names to describe itself, none of which it has declared to be the definitive name by which it should be known. However, when drawing up documents jointly with other Churches, it refers to itself either as the Catholic Church or as the Roman Catholic Church.
Divergent usages attach a certain ambiguity to each of these terms. Some apply the term Roman Catholic Church only to the Western or Latin Church, excluding the Eastern-Rite particular Churches that are in full communion with the Pope, and are part of the same Church, under the Pope, taken as a whole. As for the term Catholic Church, Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Old-Catholic, and other Christians claim to be, or to be part of, the Catholic Church. For detailed discussions of various understandings of the term, see Catholicism, Catholic, and One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
For reasons of simplicity and clarity, the term "Catholic Church" is freely used within this article without suggesting acceptance of any claims thought to be implicit in that term, while "Roman Catholic Church" is used without endorsing the view that the Church in question is merely part of some larger "Catholic Church". Both terms are treated within this article simply as alternative names for the entire Church "which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him" |
LilLB
Citizen
Username: Lillb
Post Number: 1568
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:18 pm: |
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"... the word “catholic” with a small “c,” has continued to mean “universal;” while “Catholic” with a capital “C” has come to mean the “Roman Church.”
Interestingly enough, the Roman Church has continued its insistence that they are they are the "only instrument for the salvation of all humanity."
Full text here:
http://www.newnorth.net/~stmark/Catholic.htm
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finnegan
Supporter
Username: Finnegan
Post Number: 335
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:50 pm: |
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Lillb,
I woud like to politely suggest that the link you provided, to the St. Mark Lutheran (Missouri Synod) Church in Rhineland, Wisconson, may not be the most accurate source of information regarding Roman Catholic belief and practice.
In fact the Catholic church has acknowledged since the Second Vatican Council that while the Church of Christ "subsists in the Catholic Church... many elements of sanctification and truth can be found outside its visible structure." (Lumen Gentium, 8)
Catholic theologians, and most Protestants (although I am no longer sure about the Missouri Synod Lutherans) understand this to mean that the Catholic church recognizes that grace is not controlled by the institution, nor is membership in the Catholic church an absolute requirement for salvation.
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LilLB
Citizen
Username: Lillb
Post Number: 1569
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:53 pm: |
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Finnegan - I actually wasn't sure what that link was from, but it seemed a basic explanation, and figured someone would correct me if it was not absolutely correct -- thank you for doing so! |
finnegan
Supporter
Username: Finnegan
Post Number: 336
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:35 pm: |
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You're very welcome, and thank you for the gracious reply, LiLB.
These MOL discussions of Catholicism have made me appreciate more than ever just how much questionable information on the Church is readily available on line. (I suspect, Joe R., this has something to do with the point you made at 10:18 on April 4th.) |
Stuart0628
Citizen
Username: Stuart0628
Post Number: 260
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 7:47 pm: |
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I am not Catholic, so I cannot address Church teachings etc., and do not presume to know anything in that regard. But I do know these two things:
1) Having a relative who is both studying Catholicism and who is celiac sprue, I can tell you that no amount of gluten is safe for a sprue. So low gluten wafers would not cut it.
2) I can understand and appreciate that the host is derived from the matzo eaten at the Last Supper and that therefore rice crackers could be a ritualistic issue. The five species (of chametz) prohibited for consumption on Passover (except in the form of matzo) are wheat, rye, barley, oats and spelt. Some celiacs, as I understand it, can tolerate spelt. (I AM NOT A DOCTOR, YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY) Coincidentally, matzot are now being made out of spelt or oats for those who cannot eat wheat.
To anyone who would know: Has the Church addressed whether spelt host crackers would be acceptable? This might satisfy all concerned. |
Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 396
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 8:53 pm: |
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Camnol: Surely your mother knows that she can receive Communion in the form of the wine alone. Just out of curiosity, why doesn't she do it this way? |
Camnol
Citizen
Username: Camnol
Post Number: 312
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 10:02 pm: |
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She can, as long as the wine is wafer-free. But she would still like to have the symbolic "body of Christ."
Here is an article that some of you may find interesting.
http://www.livingwithout.com/feature_WheatFreeWorship.htm
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finnegan
Supporter
Username: Finnegan
Post Number: 337
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 6:59 am: |
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Here's a group I learned of from the National Catholic Partnership on Disability that might be of interest: http://www.catholicceliacs.org/
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Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 398
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 3:50 pm: |
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Camnol: The wine is wafer-free. You're not suggesting that the wafer is mixed in the wine, are you? This is not done in the Roman Church. I hear it is done in Greek and Russian Orthodox churches, but I haven't seen this. As for the rice wafers, she can have a priest bless them ( they can bless anything) but they can't be consecrated in the context of a Mass. |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 85
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 3:53 pm: |
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WOW...I didn't have time to read through this whole thread but WOW..
I grew up in Austria which is still one of the most catholic countries in Europe. My grandmother and mother went to church every day (ok.. the Church was across the street from my family's hotel). I remember being dragged out of bed with 104 fever when I was around 6 years old. I really felt horrible and asked my grandma if I could skip church on that Sunday since I was so sick. Her answer: If you are so sick that you think you might die then you might as well die in church and if you are not going to die then you have no excuse not to go to church. Well it sounds funny now but as a kid it blew me away.
The doctrine of the church never sat well with me as a child/young woman and now as an adult mature woman I could never believe in it.
Now I do believe that a "person of faith" should aspire to "be kind, do not hurt another on purpose and live and let live". If we all could just follow these three commandments alone then this world would be a much better place.
I was suprised to find out that "The Pope speaks to God" regularly. Now I know why god seems to be too busy to attend to important events. Maybe they should just stop japping and do good.
Bajou |
Camnol
Citizen
Username: Camnol
Post Number: 313
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 4:14 pm: |
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The wine is not wafer-free if your church practices dipping wafers into the wine. |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 90
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 5:01 pm: |
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I think I will dip a pretzle into some vino myself tonight.
Bajou |
Camnol
Citizen
Username: Camnol
Post Number: 314
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 5:15 pm: |
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I prefer the double-gluten whammy of pretzels and beer. |
Bajou
Citizen
Username: Bajou
Post Number: 91
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 5:37 pm: |
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Hey Camnol:
I accept and embrace all forms of worship as long as you don't eat all the pretzels by yourself.
Bajou |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11315
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 6:29 pm: |
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I brought this up once before, but I am becoming more and more certain that Finnigan is really Father Finnegan, SJ.  |
finnegan
Supporter
Username: Finnegan
Post Number: 338
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 10:48 pm: |
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I'll take that as a compliment, Bob. |
Joe R.
Citizen
Username: Ragnatela
Post Number: 399
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 12:33 pm: |
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Camnol: I have been receiving Communion in the Catholic Church for 45 years. I have never seen a priest dip a host into the wine before distributing it. I'm not saying it never happened anywhere, but I have never see it done in all my years at the altar rail. It's impractical for one thing, because the priest normally holds a plate of consecrated Hosts and someone else holds the Chalice. In other words, to receieve both, you have to go to two different stations. Just out of curiosity, what Parish did your Mom belong to where they dipped? |
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