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Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 2283
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 1:00 pm: | 
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tulip, I'm complety with you. I just think that they should be accused of rape, not a hate crime.
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11283
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 1:12 pm: |
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The language used by the young men at the party was racist, obviously. However, if the entertainment had been two white townie women from the mills I suspect the outcome wouldn't have been any different, just the insults used would have been different. Hell, if the enterainment was two Smith coeds in pearls and cashmere the same thing would have happened.
The party was doomed when somebody said, "hey, I have an idea, let's hire a couple of strippers".
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1150
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 1:15 pm: |
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Brett - thanks, I agree.
tulip - I am not condoning the language (althought I understand), and I certainly do not think that the civil rights movement of the 60's and 70's was for naught. The issue before you now is not racism its the language of the situation.
In fact, I will say that I think there can be truth to stating this man is a racist but the evidence thus far has not shown it to be racism, just stupidity.
I do agree that there has been verbal assault, but that is not uncommon anywhere.
A man can quack like a duck and still be a man not a duck. huh, did I really type that? |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 2285
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 1:16 pm: |
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No Bob, sometimes that’s just the beginning of a party. You’ve never been to a party with strippers / exotic dancers?
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3438
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 1:45 pm: |
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Brett: Unfortunately, if rape happened, there's evidence enough that it could also have been a hate crime. It is possible for it to have been both. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11284
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 1:54 pm: |
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Yep, Btrryy, and when I was in college usually something happened. In those days that type of party was called a "smoker" and a few guys were detailed to stay sober and keep order. And then, we weren't lacrosse players, usually a rugged lot given to almost as much mischief and mayhem as Rugby players.
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Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1564
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 2:45 pm: |
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Unfortunately, if rape happened, there's evidence enough that it could also have been a hate crime. It is possible for it to have been both.”
tulip,
First an foremost thanks for recognizing my point of racism in this case. Many other AA's I've conversated with, feel the same as I do. Again, thank for seeing my point.
And yes, to above. IF these LAX players specifically requested AA females to dance at their party and given that email from one of the players on the team, the Feds could prosecute as a “hate crime” if NC carries this law.
According to the “hate crime definition:
“Most states have approached hate crime legislation by creating penalty enhancements for pre-existing crimes when those crimes are committed because of the victim’s protected minority status. Thus, commission of a hate crime requires that two elements be proven. First, it must be shown that the defendant committed an enumerated predicate offense, such as assault, robbery, manslaughter, or kidnapping. Second, it must be shown that the defendant was motivated, in whole or in part, by the victim’s minority status.”
That email (which shows intent to harm) could be damning and include the racial comments hurled at the dancers. Also, if it can be proved that they specifically requested AA's to entertain at their party. I’m not sure of the laws in NC, however, in NYC this could be included as “hate crime” status. Listed on the documents according to the smokinggun besides rape was kidnapping and assault.
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LW
Citizen
Username: Lrw
Post Number: 117
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:20 pm: |
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HOOPS-You said, "I am not condoning the language (althought I understand)"
You understand why young men, who hired a stripper for their own personal entertainment and enjoyment, would call her a Ngger? You really have to make me understand that.
And since you've been called "Ngger" so many times, how did it make you feel? |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3439
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:34 pm: |
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Phenixrising:
The strength of your argument should be obvious.
If the charges are true, this is an astoundingly serious incident, carrying really serious legal, social and moral implications. I hope if it bears out that this actually happened as the victim says it did, that this nation learns that all the money and status in the world cannot protect families from experiencing this kind of behavior. It's not about coming from a "good" family, whatever that means.
If anyone has read Steinbeck, Checkov, Flaubert or Freud, they know how someone can be from what appears to be a solid, respectable family, but still have the potential, for whatever reason, for great cruelty. The reverse is true, also.
In my line of work, I find lots of people in education making quick and facile assumptions about students, that because their mother, their father, their brother was a certain way, they too will be (take your pick) learning disabled, emotionally disturbed, cognitively impaired.
Well, no. Children born to the same parents can be wildly different from each other, even down to the strength of their "moral compass" development. So much is environmental, coincidental, situational, about behavior. You cannot predict and say, "This person is from a good family and has been such a nice person. I just don't know how he could have done this."
The power of the group, of peer pressure, of any environmental influence imaginable, can push a "good" kid to do bad.
Pardon the sermon. It's such a universal problem of perception. I can't say I'm not being critical, because I am, but it this distorted perception pattern can get in the way of reality sometimes, in my experience.
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Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4768
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:39 pm: |
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Phen
Here is the article
COMMON SENSE
BOOZE AND SEX, NOT RACE OR CLASS, FUELED THE DUKE RAPE CASE
April 21, 2006 -- WHEN my kids, two daughters, returned home on summer break following their first year at college, we didn't bother to try to impose a nighttime curfew. That would have been too sudden a reversal of newly granted (gifted?) independence.
But we tried to impress upon them a common sense formula:
After a certain hour, the likelihood of something good happening diminishes. Between midnight and 1 a.m., bad begins to make its move. At 2 a.m., bad takes the lead. After 2 a.m., it's bad, by 20 lengths.
In other words, certain situations can be preemptively and logically weighed as to whether they hold the promise of a good or bad result.
And that brings us to Durham, N.C., home of Duke University.
Durham has a lot in common with lots of places. It's a town in which public figures seem disinclined to do the simple math - two plus two is left unsolved - because the application of common sense might be condemned as socially and even politically insensitive, thus unacceptable.
In Durham, over the last five weeks, common sense seems to have been abandoned in favor of a search for the "underlying reasons" for the alleged rape and/or sexual assault of a female African-American stripper by at least two members of Duke's mostly white lacrosse team.
The three underlying reasons have been identified as:
1) Race, as in white-on-black sexual assault.
2) Privilege, as in the sense of entitlement within a group largely comprised of sons of socially advantaged parents vs. the daughter of a socially disadvantaged family and race.
3) Class, as in the two classes in Durham - the haves, represented by Duke's lacrosse team of out-of-towners - and the have-nots, represented by the 27-year-old stripper, a Durham resident and single mother of two.
Heavy stuff. Serious stuff. But it's all guesswork. And, in some instances, no doubt, it's the guesswork of wishful thinkers in service to their personal and political obligations, if not their beliefs.
While we don't know what went on at that team party, the night of March 13, we do know, based on universal truths (and common sense) that before race, privilege and class even entered the equation - before that party even began - nothing good could happen.
Take one large part booze, one large part sex. Blend. Repeat. It's a recipe for serious trouble everywhere, and no one group holds an exclusive on it. It's trouble: No guesswork involved, none needed.
The party was predicated on charging the night with alcohol and sex, thus with incivility. Two strippers who, by design and definition, were hired to remove their clothing as a means of entertaining an audience of males that, by design and definition, would be inebriated.
Nothing better than bad could happen. It's not a mere coincidence that strippers normally don't perform at libraries, museums and churches, nor is it a coincidence that groups of drunken males are more inclined toward criminal behavior than groups of sober men.
But as the media began to latch on to this story, among the first things they did was ignore the indisputably obvious in favor of "deeper social meanings" - those "underlying reasons," including white oppression.
When I was in college, three drunken frat brothers took turns taking sexual advantage of a drunken young woman. She was a resident of the largely poor college town, as was the alleged victim of the sexual assault at Duke.
But she was about 19, not 27. And she lived in a nice, big house. And she was white, as were the three frat brothers. But two of those frat brothers who lined up to have sex with her were dirt-poor sons of dirt-poor coal miners.
Booze and sex were the only issues at issue.
We don't doubt that Durham has racial, social and economic class problems. But to present the March 13 episode as representative of all of them seems like sophistry, the work of political magicians, hustlers.
And that brings up one last question: If we were to throw a men-only party with lots of booze and female strippers, what would be the perfect racial, economic and social make-up of both the party-goers and the strippers in order to ensure that a good time will be had by all?
phil.mushnick@nypost.com
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Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4769
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:42 pm: |
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Phen-
The cabbie's comments about going back to pick up a second fare helps reinforce the claims of being innocent by the first lax player. No? |
Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1565
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:43 pm: |
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Thanks JTA
However, As long as the racial slurs exist, I cannot totally agree with this article. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1154
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:44 pm: |
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LW - your first question, I think I already explained but I can go further. From my perspective in sports, when there is a gathering of players from the same team in the same place, there is such a thing as locker room talk. The discussion is vulgar and blue and generally off-limits to general society. None of the players might be so emboldened on their own or in a different setting but a certain pack psychology takes over and the conversation can get vile and base.
Something happened that got these people angry and what you are reading is anger coupled with intent to harm verbally by lashing out in a frankly immature manner. That in itself gets the conversation down to what might hurt most. See what Brett says above. I echo that as well.
If in your terms that automatically makes them racists then that is a strict definition that in my mind is not accurate. However if it makes you very angry and sympathetic to the woman, I can appreciate your position, just not agree with it.
In terms of your second question - when I was first called it, I had to make sure that the person was talking to me because I didnt believe it. Afterwards it actually made me feel strangely closer to the group of people that were calling me it. As I said, and as you well know the AA community uses that noun in very different ways. Term of endearment, vile disgusting put down and everything in between. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4770
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:45 pm: |
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Copperfield
I'm thinking the same thing.
>>>Could the stripper have been threatening to call the police because the guys didn't pay her the full fee?<<< |
LW
Citizen
Username: Lrw
Post Number: 118
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:50 pm: |
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This question, again is for the white MOLers (which seem to be the only race representative of this thread): When you, your friends, family, co-workers (assuming their all white, as well) get drunk, is it just natural or common practice to refer to Blacks, whether directly or just in general conversation, as Nggers?
Now, let's see who'll answer this honestly, and I don't think anyone will think of you differently if you answer "yes". |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3440
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:50 pm: |
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Durham has a lot in common with lots of places. It's a town in which public figures seem disinclined to do the simple math - two plus two is left unsolved - because the application of common sense might be condemned as socially and even politically insensitive, thus unacceptable.
Just the Aunt, I think Mushnick has duplicated this disinclination in failing to see the racial element and the bias element of this event.
To answer his last question, if white kids need African American strippers to "have a good time," then have that "good time" by treating these girls with disdain and ridicule at best, and with violence at worst, something's very wrong.
Did you ever see Schindler's List? Remember the rape scene? Why did the Nazi need the Jewish girl for his pleasure? The answer lies in the depths of Freudian psychology.
Best of luck in your pursuits.
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Scully
Citizen
Username: Scully
Post Number: 339
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:52 pm: |
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'tulip, I'm complety with you. I just think that they should be accused of rape, not a hate crime.'
Kind of hard for me to think of rape as anything BUT a hate crime... |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1155
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:55 pm: |
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lw - are you asking that ridiculous question because of what I posted?
Sorry but no. never. not even once.
I guess I pick my friends wisely - although my black friends use the word liberally in general conversation talking about anyone.
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3441
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:59 pm: |
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Scully, True, but a hate crime is performed not just against an individual, but an individual selected by the perpetrator because they are from a specific group of people. It is an act of social pathology against a person because of what they represent. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1156
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:05 pm: |
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tulip, therefore all rapes that are interacial fall into that same category. Yet we dont even know any facts about this case, dont know if there was a rape or anything else.
Personally I would love to see the men tried and convicted if they did something, but also wouldnt it be nice if these guys were innocent of everything other then tossing some vile comments around in anger, if they could somehow be cleared of the smear that is upon them?
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LW
Citizen
Username: Lrw
Post Number: 119
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:08 pm: |
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TULIP-Good point, Tulip. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3442
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:15 pm: |
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Hoops, No, not all rapes of black women by white men are racially motivated.
The reason in this case, if a rape actually occurred, the signs are that it was racially motivated, is the extent of the racially-charged language that was used. If it can be additionally proven that these boys asked for African American "strippers" specifically, or pursued them, suggests that they might have planned this demeaning incident. That suggests bias, to say the least. |
LW
Citizen
Username: Lrw
Post Number: 120
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:16 pm: |
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HOOPS-Why do you call it a "ridiculous" question?
What's ridiculous is for you to bring up the fact that some Blacks use it as a term of endearment, because we know those white boys at Duke weren't using it in that way. So your mentioning that is ridiculous. BTW, no the question wasn't soley for you, or I would've addressed the question directly to you. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4771
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:18 pm: |
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Tulip-
But the accuser has also broken the law by stripping for money. She also has a criminal past. Only one of the lax players arrested to the alleged rape has been in trouble before. That incident involved a gay man. Of the lax players being in trouble for being drunk in the past, from what I've seen so far, they weren't two of them.
No matter how you look at it, or what the truth turns out to be, Duke, Durham, and the community, the lax players, the accuser, will never be the same. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4772
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:23 pm: |
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Tulip-
What about if it turns out the accuser made up the story because she was made the Duke students stiffed her for her fee?
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Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4773
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:29 pm: |
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LW
You are kidding, right? I know of at least five of the posters in this thread aren't 'white'
>>>This question, again is for the white MOLers (which seem to be the only race representative of this thread):<<< |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3443
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:32 pm: |
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JTA: Last question first: then all bets are off. I'd still wonder what the source of all the racial slurs was...because they were asked to pay?
Odd, no?
First question/comment: Yes, she may have had a criminal past. JTA, raping her, if that's what happened, is still illegal. How can you think this absolves the boys if they raped her?
I guess you are in the crew that supports a sort of "seduction" defense? (Is that like the "twinkie defense" for the guy who shot Harvey Milk, the twinkies made me do it?....)
Well, that's where we differ. Males as well as females of early adulthood have to learn how to fight temptation a little bit. I'm afraid our culture doesn't teach that any more, although it's certainly central to the Judeo-Christian ethic.
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Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4774
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:34 pm: |
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Tulip-
I haven't said I agree or disagree with the article. I wasn't the original poster who provided a link to the article. I just posted the article because Phen said the filters on his work computer wouldn't allow him to follow the link.
Has it been said the players specifically asked for AA 'dancers?' If so, that might put a different slant on the situation.
Sorry, I didn't see Schindler's List so I can't comment as I don't know about the rape scene. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3444
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:38 pm: |
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I don't know if they asked specifically for African American dancers. That, in itself, doesn't indicate prejudice against black women. A bias crime can be spontaneous, and is indicated usually by language and other behavior that indicate hate of a group that the person belongs to. It's up to the prosecution to investigate that.
If you can, you should get Schindler's List from Blockbuster, and watch for the rape scene. It's hard to watch, but you might see what I'm talking about. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4775
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:45 pm: |
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Tulip-
I brought up the accuser also having a criminal past because you seemed to have implied the lax players had one, therefore they were guilty. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post. I in no way do I absolve the lax players in anyway if the accusations turn out to be true. And, no I am not part of the crew that supports a sort of "seduction" defense?
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LW
Citizen
Username: Lrw
Post Number: 121
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:49 pm: |
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JTA-Thanks, for clearing that up for me. Now, if you continued reading my earlier post, you may have noticed that it ended with a question? Care to respond to that. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7343
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 5:07 pm: |
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Yep - that's usually the first thing that happens when a woman goes forward with charges after being raped. Her past gets brought up. Because if she has one, she deserved it.
This thread is making me sick. 1 in 6 US women have been sexually abused. The gender composition of this country is roughly 50/50. There are ~3k registered users on MOL. Acknowledging that there is a selection bias for people who participate in these forums and that there are a smaller number of people who are regular posters than are registered, lets say that there are 250 regular posters and that the gender distribution is normal. That's about 20 female posters active on this board who have been sexually attacked.
Why don't some of you academic mental masturbators think about that while you ponder thru who was arrested for what and who they've slept with in the past?
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3447
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 5:17 pm: |
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greenetree:
I don't agree with JTA and I agree with you about rape victims getting attacked, called blaming the victim. But "academic mental masturbators?" I think people who worry about the victim's past are maybe identifying with the accused for some reason, and trying to defend them.
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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7344
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 5:25 pm: |
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I am disgusted by all this vehement defense of knowing exactly what happened by following the press.
These are serious issues, which are going to tear up families and futures. But, in the meantime, here we are debating the "facts" and speculating on what happened. Pointing fingers. Amusing ourselves. I don't agree that people worrying about the victim's past are identifying with the accusers. I do think it's possible that they've spent too much time watching Law & Order. Is there any other point to this than self-gratification? Pat yourself on the back because you've got the whole thing figured out?
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11285
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 5:31 pm: |
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LW, I don't think anyone is saying that the language wasn't racist. However, the point that Hoops is making (and Phil Mushnick articulates)is that the rapes (if that was the case) were not race driven. If the entertainers were white they also would have been raped and called "white trash", "townie whore", "retarded hillbilly" or in the case of my hypothetical Smith students, "preppy bitch" or take your pick. You take a bunch of 19 to 22 year old males who play a rough sport, add booze in very large quanities and naked women you have a problem.
Rape is horrible and sexual abuse is much more common than most of us admit. However, it isn't necessarily a racist issue. |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 391
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 6:20 pm: |
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Does anyone presume them innocent, unless and until a jury unanimously finds them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?
jd |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3448
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 6:31 pm: |
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I do. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1157
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 6:40 pm: |
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lw - I am actually - and I believe much earlier in this thread stated, but not as well - in agreement with greenetree.
I have tried and tried to refute race as an indictor in this issue and show as best I could that this is a case where race should not matter.
The issue of race and town division was forced into the discussion by demonstrations in Durham centered on race and by the media sensationalizing this incident.
The question you asked - repeated here for clarity was -
Quote:This question, again is for the white MOLers (which seem to be the only race representative of this thread): When you, your friends, family, co-workers (assuming their all white, as well) get drunk, is it just natural or common practice to refer to Blacks, whether directly or just in general conversation, as Nggers?
If it is a real question to white molers then it is sad, and I guess I should apologize for my characterization, but it seems to me that the question does not fit the situation.
If you cant address the double standard of the N word, and what it actually means in todays world, then our discussion of the issue can not move forward. I made mention of it because it is not as if that is not a very frequently used word. I am sure that at their party they had heard many current unedited songs where the N word was used over and over and over and over and over... So if the word is in the air, and really if you sing the songs do you not say the word as you sing? Do you kind of skip over that one? No probably not or not always. The word has lost its mystique, that way yet still remains as a vicious put down when used in the way they did use it.
Brett and BobK are on point on this issue.
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3449
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 7:51 pm: |
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By the way, I am trying to sort this all out despite the press, not following them. The press seems almost entirely in opposition to the prosecution. They are clearly skeptical of the whole matter, almost with one voice. I am going from the point that Phenixrising made, that as soon as someone claims she's been violated, her entire life becomes an open book. Some obviously think that's fair. I really don't know if it is or not. I just don't think it's relevant. It may speak to credibility, but if someone looks disheveled and disoriented and the medical examiners claim there is evidence of sexual aggression, I don't see how that can be contested. I hope the press doesn't skewer this accuser, just because the accused are of the same socioeconomic class as the press, and those with the highest level of credibility in our society.
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Jersey Boy
Citizen
Username: Jersey_boy
Post Number: 562
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 9:36 pm: |
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LW,
I only ever heard the N-word once by someone in my family growing up. My dad said it about two boys (Black) who mugged me and a friend of mine in a movie theater. He also physically grabbed the theater manager (White) when he was yelling at him about it. He was mad and both behaviors had never been seen before nor since.
I never heard my Grandfather from Indiana use the N-word, but he was a straight up ignorant racist. He had his own words that I never heard anywhere else.
If you want to know if there are secret Black joke, N-word conversations going on when you're not around. None that I've witnessed.
J.B.
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Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4778
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 2:30 am: |
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LW-
I can only speak for myself and my friends when they are with me. No none of us do. However, I do know I've been around AA's who do use the 'N' word as well as others. One of my niece's closest friend since they were in first grade is AA. Everything was fine with them until they got to high school. The other AA kids started to call her friend really mean names because of her friendship with my niece.
We hear the teenagers on the basketball court by the Baird Center use the 'N' word all the time. We even hear the girls from Marylawn when they walk down the street calling each other the 'N' word. And THEY go to a Catholic school.
The use of racial slurs by the lax players is 100 percent wrong. But just because they used racial slurs towards her doesn't mean they raped her. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4779
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 2:44 am: |
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Greenie-
I in no way think a woman's (or man for that matter because men too can be sexually assaulted) sexual past should have any bearing on whether or not she really was raped. Nobody deserves to be raped. Even if the person was known to sleep around and slept with 50 others, it doesn't give someone the right to attack her.
In some ways though there is a double standard. While it's unfair to bring up a woman's past, prosecutors have no problem bring up the man's. I don't think it's being said if the accusations turn out to be true it's the accusers own fault. I think people are just trying to see both sides of the story. There always is the chance the accusations are unfounded.
There are just too many unanswered questions. And now, the other 'dancer' that was at the party has changed her story. She even contacted a publications firm to ask how she can spin this to her advantage (or something like that). Some other things were brought out as well. Supposedly she was facing charges for something else and is out on bail. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4780
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 2:49 am: |
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Joel
Add me to the list. I've been trying to say this. That there is the chance they are innocent. And if it turns out they are, the accuser will make it all the more difficult for someone to come forward in the future. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4781
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 2:57 am: |
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Something else. Sometimes even people from your own neighborhood, people you've grown up with all your life turn out to be real lowlifes. Anyone remember what happened in Glen Ridge back in the late 80's? All involved grew up within a couple of blocks from each other. All, but one of the boys involved were white. They girl was white. The boys were very popular jocks. She only had a few friends. The defense lawyers did everything they could to trash this young lady. She had a questionable past they made a point of bringing up every chance they could. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7349
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 8:28 am: |
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So then stop bringing it up. |
Just The Aunt
Supporter
Username: Auntof13
Post Number: 4783
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 12:32 pm: |
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Greenie-
I didn't bring it up. I've been responding to other who have. When I get back I'll be more then happy to find the posts for you I responded to. I didn't start this thread either. FYI- I do know people who have been raped. I also know someone who was falsely accused. As I've said more then once, no matter how this turns out, NOBODY 'WINS!' The lives of all those involved will never be the same. |
ess
Citizen
Username: Ess
Post Number: 1799
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 1:41 pm: |
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Once again....a woman's past has no bearing on whether or not she was attacked. And certainly, no woman deserves to be attacked. That is a foul theory.
The difference between bringing up a woman's past and a man's past has to do with patterns of behavior. If a man has attacked in the past, it demonstrates he is capable of this act and that it is believable for him to repeat it. It is not definitive proof of guilt, but it does establish a pattern.
JTA - the young lady in Glen Ridge had some psychological/emotional problems. She may have been mildly retarded. Whatever "past" she had was so incredibly irrelevant; the boys who attacked her were deranged cretins. That was a totally different situation. |
MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 161
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 5:31 pm: |
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I think I must be missing something (seriously): Why is this national news?
It's a terrible thing, but what makes it the national story it continues to be? |
mjh
Supporter
Username: Mjh
Post Number: 474
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 7:11 am: |
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MichaelaM:
I think today's Wash Post editorial explains it well, and is pretty even-handed:
Tough Questions in Durham
By Eugene Robinson
Tuesday, April 25, 2006; Page A23
The Duke University scandal is murky, like many cases of alleged rape -- especially cases of alleged rape in which the accused can afford top-shelf legal counsel. It will be some time before we know what really happened that night between a house full of rowdy lacrosse players and the two "exotic dancers" they hired as entertainment, and it's quite possible we'll never have a truly satisfactory answer. What we do have are disturbing questions and a rich historical context. Those, for the moment, are more than enough to ponder.
The context? A bunch of jocks at an elite university in the once-segregated South -- privileged white kids who play lacrosse, a sport that conjures images of impossibly green suburban playing fields surrounded by the Range Rovers of doting parents -- decide to have a party, so they call an escort service and hire a couple of strippers. The hired help arrives: two black women, one of them a 27-year-old single mother who is working her way through North Carolina Central University, a decidedly proletarian institution across town. Within a few hours the woman becomes simply "the accuser" when she tells police she was raped by some of those white jocks.
That's the basic scenario, and it's impossible to avoid thinking of all the black women who were violated by drunken white men in the American South over the centuries. The master-slave relationship, the tradition of droit du seigneur , the use of sexual possession as an instrument of domination -- all this ugliness floods the mind, unbidden, and refuses to leave.
Then there's the fact that the incident happened at Duke, which has never been able to shake its aura of preppy privilege, its reputation as a place where students are downright arrogant in their sense of superiority.
A couple of basic questions tend to get overlooked. What's the deal with any group of college students thinking it's a perfectly normal thing to hire strippers for a party? What do their parents say when they see that charge on the credit card bill? For that matter, what's the deal with a college student, whatever financial pressure she might be under, thinking that working at night as an outcall stripper is a perfectly acceptable -- and safe -- way to support herself? It's not blaming the victim to ask if she couldn't have made better choices.
Those questions have to wait, however, while we pore over DNA test results, witness statements and dueling accounts of the evening's events from prosecutors and defense lawyers.
For now, all we can do is expand the context somewhat. Not much attention has been paid to the fact that Duke has done much better than most of the nation's elite universities in promoting diversity in its student body. Around 30 percent of Duke students are minorities, including more than 11 percent who are African American -- approximately the percentage of blacks in the general population. It's also true that the most esteemed, almost revered, member of the Duke faculty is the African American historian John Hope Franklin.
Yet Duke is still a place where the lacrosse team, which has but one black player, hires two black strippers for an alcohol-fueled house party. Was this just another night in Durham?
The university's president, Richard H. Brodhead, may emerge from this awful mess as a true hero, because he seems to understand the need to deal not only with the specific allegations but with the context and the questions as well. In an extraordinary letter to the Duke community, Brodhead noted that some troubling issues have suddenly been brought to "glaring visibility" and must be dealt with.
"They include concerns about the culture of certain student groups that regularly abuse alcohol and the attitudes these groups promote," Brodhead wrote. "They include concerns about the survival of the legacy of racism, the most hateful feature American history has produced. . . . [They] include concerns about the deep structures of inequality in our society . . . and the attitudes of superiority those inequalities breed."
Brodhead wrote of "an attitude of arrogant inconsiderateness that reached its peak in the alleged event but that had long preceded it" -- an attitude that, to many outsiders, "has seemed to be the face of Duke."
He announced an immediate set of responses, among them a "campus culture initiative" designed to get at these underlying issues of race, privilege and alcohol. It will be fascinating to watch as Duke attempts some educating that parents should have taken care of long ago.
eugenerobinson@washpost.com
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Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1566
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 7:52 am: |
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mjh,
Thanks for posting this. Good article! |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1171
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 8:54 am: |
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"My listeners dont care about this. Rape is unfortunate but it happens all over the place... We're not following gossip, we do real news"
- Randi Rhodes
yes this is gossip, its not an important story and has nothing to do with racism.
video here
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Phenixrising
Citizen
Username: Phenixrising
Post Number: 1567
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 9:15 am: |
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Brodhead wrote of "an attitude of arrogant inconsiderateness that reached its peak in the alleged event but that had long preceded it" -- an attitude that, to many outsiders, "has seemed to be the face of Duke."
He announced an immediate set of responses, among them a "campus culture initiative" designed to get at these underlying issues of race, privilege and alcohol. It will be fascinating to watch as Duke attempts some educating that parents should have taken care of long ago.
Thank goodness the President of Duke (Richard H. Brodhead) recognizes this and hopefully if he says holds true, will help bring the community of Durham together.
Again, good article! |
Jersey Boy
Citizen
Username: Jersey_boy
Post Number: 577
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 10:08 pm: |
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Look, as a person with a job that requires one to make decisions when given information that is not always complete, I say, "I GET what happened."
This is not a tough one. A couple of racist college kids hired a couple of Black strippers and got drunk and raped one of them. They proceeded to behave as if that is what happened and generated an adequate record to indict themselves:
Spewed racial slurs during the "celebrations" and after.
Discussed her believablility, "she's just a stripper."
E-mailed afterwards about the events, talking about doing worse things. "We'll skin 'em."
HELLO! What am I missing that isn't just defense attorney supposition?
J.B. |
Factvsfiction
Citizen
Username: Factvsfiction
Post Number: 41
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 11:52 am: |
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"If the glove doesn't fit you must acquit." Oh... sorry that was another racially-tinged societally dividing case, wasn't it? |
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