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msuewillis
Citizen
Username: Msuewillis
Post Number: 114
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 5:11 pm: | 
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I think it's an interesting question, but I really want to tell people about a program next week, Sunday April 30, at the Ethical Culture Society at 11:00 AM. David Weinberger,Ph.D., PBS commentator, co-author of THE CLUETRAIN MANIFESTO, blogger, and Internet Guru, will be speaking on the architecture of the Internet and certain presuppositions about its use. While acknowledging the ability of people to use both the Internet and the Web malevolently, what can we say about the moral tendencies of these technologies?
Dr. Weinberger is the co-author of The Cluetrain Manifesto, the best seller that cut through the hype and told business what the Web was really about. His latest book, Small Pieces Loosely Joined, has been published to rave reviews. He�s been a frequent commentator on National Public Radio's All Things Considered and has written for The New York Times, The Harvard Business Review, The Miami Herald, The Boston Globe and Wired. He was also a comedy writer for Woody Allen for seven years and a humor columnist for Oregon's major daily newspaper. He is a Fellow at Harvard�s prestigious Berkman Institute for Internet & Society.
The talk takes place at the Ethical Culture Society, 516 Prospect Street, Maplewood, NJ, corner of Prospect and Parker. For more info, look at the website, http:www.essexethical.org/schedule.html . |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2671
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 5:46 pm: |
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Is the printing press moral?
How about the telephone, TV or the automobile? |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 398
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 6:33 pm: |
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Is the internet ethical?
I can hardly wait for a PBS commentator to inform educate me about the morality of inanimate things.
jd |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1981
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 7:33 pm: |
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the internet is an inert object that carries no ethos or morality. the question is flawed. |
ess
Citizen
Username: Ess
Post Number: 1803
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 8:28 pm: |
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It's not the "moral tendencies of these technologies" on which to focus. It's the morals/ethics of those who use these technologies.
And even so, who are we to evaluate anyone else's "morals"? |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 9268
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 10:07 pm: |
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NEXT IN THE SERIES:
Electrical Currents and You: An axiological investigation into plugging things in --- When should they be plugged in? For how long?
Gravity: Good or Bad? If you reach the Earth's core, do you keep going for a while or come to an abrupt stop?
The Ethics of Rail Transport
The Web: What it's Really About (hint: small pieces, loosely joined)
Time: Good, evil or indifferent?
Space: Why do we need such a huge key to type it? |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 9269
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 10:19 pm: |
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Speaking of pieces not joined, someone should point out to Mr. Weinberger his web site's message board is broken.
http://smallpieces.com/discus/messages/3/7.html?1030538375
(try posting anything... and get an error)
Perhaps he's too busy showing up in physical reality telling people how important the Internet is to get it right?
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msuewillis
Citizen
Username: Msuewillis
Post Number: 115
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 9:28 am: |
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I forgot to mention that David Weinberger is also my brother-in-law.... |
letters
Citizen
Username: Letters016
Post Number: 514
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 10:03 am: |
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"Space: Why do we need such a huge key to type it?"
Ifwedidn'thaveabigkeyyoursentencesmightlooklikethis! |
steel
Citizen
Username: Steel
Post Number: 1038
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 11:42 am: |
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Dave,
"Electrical Currents and You."
-Now that is funny stuff! Are you writing for Jamie? |
Case
Citizen
Username: Case
Post Number: 1398
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 12:56 pm: |
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One of the great things about the Internet is its revenue-generating ability.
I imagine that this book (and lecture tour) is an excellent example.
PS - Dave - that was really, really, REALLY funny. |
msuewillis
Citizen
Username: Msuewillis
Post Number: 116
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 2:08 pm: |
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(MS Willis is posting this for me because this board won't allow me to
register. I'm the guy giving the talk, which I hope will lead to a
lively discusson...as seems likely given what the mere title of the talk
has provoked here.)
Obviously things can be used for good or evil. But there are at least
two ways in which it makes sense to ask if a piece of technology is moral.
1. Given what we can predict about how X will be used, will it be used
for good or evil? "Is X moral?" in this case is shorthand for "Will X be
used for moral purposes? Will it make the world better or worse?" We
ask this every time we consider creating something new. But that's not
the sense in which I'm going to consider the Internet question.
2. I will argue -- although "suggest" is probably a more accurate verb
-- that a. the Internet's end-to-end architecture instantiates
democratic values; b. the Web is built on an architecture not only of
connection but of generosity: Every link is an enticement to go away
from the page the author has created. (Commercial sites are the
exception.) I think that helps explain (not determines) why so much (not
all) of the Web assumes a culture of sharing.
[Dave, thanks for pointing out that the discussion board is broken. It's
also moribund. It's for a book that came out four years ago. The board
broke when I switched hosts. I'll disable it until I can fix it.]
[FWIW, I'm a commentator on NPR, not PBS.]
-- David Weinberger
self A T evident.com
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Pizzaz
Supporter
Username: Pizzaz
Post Number: 3537
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 8:56 pm: |
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http://www.eventsounds.com/wav/idmail.wav |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 9272
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 10:56 pm: |
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David,
I just approved a dozen new accounts and yours was one of them.
When Yahoo! helped China identify a user and that journalist was arrested was the Internet moral? The way I phrase the question begs the answer. Is this a problem with the issue or the language we use to discuss it? |
Mr. Big Poppa
Citizen
Username: Big_poppa
Post Number: 587
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 9:06 am: |
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I agree with ess. Who are we to define others' morals?
Porn on the internet....good or bad? |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1983
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 9:17 am: |
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Porn on the internet....good or bad?
it is heresy to even suggest it might be bad!!!!!!!!
porn=always gooder! |
Case
Citizen
Username: Case
Post Number: 1401
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 9:18 am: |
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I think if you answer the question "porn - good or bad" you'll be able to answer the "Porn on the Internet" question.
I eagerly await the board's decision.
 |
letters
Citizen
Username: Letters016
Post Number: 519
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 5:23 pm: |
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I read once that if they removed the porn from the internet, the only site left would be
www.bring-back-the-porn.com |
MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 165
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 9:50 pm: |
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Is yellow square or round? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13843
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 7:24 am: |
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Wow, I've never seen so many reviews of an event that hasn't yet occurred.
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Soda
Supporter
Username: Soda
Post Number: 3832
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 7:49 am: |
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It happens in your mind, Tom.
-s. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2936
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 10:18 am: |
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yellow is absolutely square. Red is round. Blue is octagonal. Green is a 3D dodecahedron.
Sheesh... |
Scully
Citizen
Username: Scully
Post Number: 354
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 12:35 pm: |
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'When Yahoo! helped China identify a user and that journalist was arrested was the Internet moral?'
China was immoral. Yahoo was immoral.
And as to colors, they're all round... |
Mr. Big Poppa
Citizen
Username: Big_poppa
Post Number: 592
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 12:59 pm: |
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I think China was immoral based on the generally accepted moral code worldwide. However, in the eyes of the Chinese government, they didn't do anything immoral.
Yahoo management, on the otherhand, did something immoral probably according to their own moral code.
Scully, you are totally incorrect. How can colors be round if they obviously have corners? |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1178
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 1:11 pm: |
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I think the question is what is the moral of the internet?
Mr Big Poppa - Scully is quite correct. its all about e=mc**2. Space time is curved thus distorting your view. |
David Weinberger
Citizen
Username: Dweinberger
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 9:12 am: |
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Jeez, I'm willing to say that arresting people for disagreeing with the government is bad bad thing to do. Morally bad. I'm willing to say that Yahoo ratted them out because Yahoo didn't want to lose money, and that that was a bad thing to do. (Google maintains the Google.cn servers in the US so China can't get at them.) I'm also of course acknowledge that the world is far more complex than I can understand, that China's leaders are not <em>only</em> acting out of fear and a desire to stay in power, that morals change over time and across distance. I think it's important to keep all that in mind, but not to let it paralyze us.
But that's not what I'm going to be talking about at the discussion on Sunday. I'm looking at the architecture of the Internet and Web to see if there's anything about it that we can discuss in moral terms. I'll also be stipulating that I think freedom of speech, open access to information, and caring about other people are all morally good; if the audience disagrees, then I'll note that and move on, since the topic isn't "Are generalized Western democratic values good?" but "Does the Net's architecture favor or imply any particular vlaues (where we assume generalized Western democratic values)?"
By the way, someone reminded me that I posted a long-ish piece about this in 2000. I re-read it and hate the beginning. But if you actually care what I think about this - and I agree that there's no particular reason why you should - the piece is here. |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5352
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 4:08 pm: |
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So, how was it? Does anybody have any insights from the talk, to share here? |
MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 186
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 4:11 pm: |
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Well, I don't think the Internet is moral or immoral. Like any form of communication, it can be used for good or evil, but mostly is used for inanity. -_-
(P.S., My co-workers made fun of me when I started a sentence with, "On my hometown message board ...") |
Rick B
Citizen
Username: Ruck1977
Post Number: 1091
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 4:58 pm: |
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(P.S., My co-workers made fun of me when I started a sentence with, "On my hometown message board ...")
no offense MichaelaM, but I think you deserved that one! |
MichaelaM
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 187
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 6:11 pm: |
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Probably. -_- |
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